Etrian Odyssey 2 Mafia - Game Over

[charlie_]

what part of "scum tried to roleblock green" do you guys not seem to get?

[Da Bear]

Shin if me voting Green mainly for D1 is bad then why do you turn around and do it yourself?

[Eurykins]

what part of "scum tried to roleblock green" do you guys not seem to get?

I.... apparently did not piece together or fully interpret/understand what happened last night phase, sorry. (Mind's tired as all hell, and my internet's laughing and trolling me atm while I'm trying to re-read posts. Sad times)

[Shin]

SB, I'm pretty convinced that a third hooker probably exists, whether they are town or no. I'm not entirely sure if town would have three and mafia would have none, and the feasibility of having four or more just seems somewhat ridiculous. That either means scum did indeed try to block Green, which would make her unlikely to be scum, or the block was otherwise redirected - which would imply that Flan isn't being truthful about his targets.

I'm still querying the vig claim by Kopf, it still strikes me as very strange that there was only one target. This is assuming that scum didn't get redirected or blocked themselves, but there's quite a few different possibilities.

[Shin]

Shin if me voting Green mainly for D1 is bad then why do you turn around and do it yourself?

Because your vote was this;

So GP has almost 20 posts this phase and hasn't really said anything about who she thinks is scum and hasn't voted. Pointless posting does not make me feel any better about her.

##Vote: Green Poet.

BBM's Eli case is good, I prefer this atm though.

Which heavily implies that the vote was based on this phase rather than D1.

[Refa]

SB, I'm pretty convinced that a third hooker probably exists, whether they are town or no. I'm not entirely sure if town would have three and mafia would have none, and the feasibility of having four or more just seems somewhat ridiculous. That either means scum did indeed try to block Green, which would make her unlikely to be scum, or the block was otherwise redirected - which would imply that Flan isn't being truthful about his targets.

There are only 2 hookers and GP isn't a Hooker...

[Da Bear]

Which heavily implies that the vote was based on this phase rather than D1.

What I meant by that was that I don't like her contributions this phase so she remains my top scumread.

[scorri]

Right, ok.

Here's what we have:

Kop claims to have vigged Fleur

GP followed Refa and saw him roleblocking someone

Refa claimed to block BBM which BBM confirmed

SB also claimed blocked and redirected to himself.

Poly/Marth slot claims to have driven SB and GP.

So, what this means is the following:

We have ONE claimed hooks,who acted last night and one claimed safeguard who did *not* act last night with her safeguard (Refa and GP). We have two claimed people who were blocked last night (BBM and SB). This means either someone is lying, or there's a second hook out there. Now, lets look at the situation where GP is lying. To do that, he would have had to target himself, which is a complete waste of an action, and thus not very likely. That means that there's almost certainly a third hook out there (or I suppose Refa and BBM could be scum buddies) and that third hook is likely scum since they targeted a claimed follower.

We have a claimed redirecting action (Poly/Marth) and someone who claims to have been redirected. SB: Did you target GP last night? If so, that means that you probably just got redirected to yourself and then blocked. If not, that means we have a second redirect out there. Null on alignment, but leaning slightly more towards Poly/Marth being town trying to redirect away from claimed follower.

So yeah. That should be a decent summary. Now excuse me while I go reread.

Updated this for reference.

We have claimed right now (this is assuming no one is lying about their actions):

Refa: Hook who targeted BBM last night (role confirmed by GP but not target, BBM agreed he was hooked)

GP: Safeguard+Follower (used follower last night, confirmed Refa was hook before Refa claimed actions)

Poly: Driver (drove GP and SB last night)

So yeah. Since SB was hooked last night, that means that either the hook was a strongman hook (this would be dumb and isn't actually worth considering), a second, unclaimed hook attempted to target GP last night, or Poly is lying. Now, I'd like to ask if anyone else targeted SB or GP. If so, and you weren't redirected mention this. If you did target one of them and were redirected, also mention this.

Basically, unless someone else claims that they tried to hook GP last night and gives a good solid reason as to why they did so, I have zero interest in lynching GP today.

[Shin]

There are only 2 hookers and GP isn't a Hooker...

Well that just shows my reading comprehension. ggme.

[Shin]

Wait, scratch that. A third town hooker would have to exist in order to explain that there was only one night kill. Either that or Kopf and the scum team really did pick the same target.

[charlie_]

Or a doctor exists...

[Shin]

That's another possibility, but one would question to who the doctor targeted in order to be successful, especially with two blocks and a bus driver.

[scorri]

Wait, scratch that. A third town hooker would have to exist in order to explain that there was only one night kill. Either that or Kopf and the scum team really did pick the same target.

... Or Refa targeted BBM and BBM is scum who took the night kill?

[Refa]

Seems like a slip because he assumes BBM is town who got blocked, but honestly I've learnt not to put too much credit into those because town tends to do it more often than scum in my experience. Also Shin had a townread on BBM so that could explain that, I dunno.

[Green Poet]

My defense. Unnecessary read for those who don't suspect me.

Claiming your action is great, that requires one post. You spent an extra twenty~ doing ????, all we have from your posts is your action and you being confused about roles I guess.

I spent posts clarifying my role and rolespecing.

I should add that it wouldn't make sense for me to go out of my way and invent new details about my role without being asked, since the new points could raise incriminating contradictions. Not sure what's scummy about me clarifying, really :/

Why should I believe the claim of someone I believe to be scum? Scum!Follower is easily possible, scum!roleblocker is very common. Use your role to defend yourself all you want, I'll vote you for scummy actions anyway.

You won't consider my claim because you believe me to be scum, but you believe me to be scum because you don't like how I posted too much unnecessarily about my claim. Essentially...

"I believe person X is a liar.

However, I will ignore person X's testimony, which claims that they are honest, because I already believe that they are a liar."

That's not really open-minded, and strikes me as something scum would try to get away with because they already know that I am town, and don't want to openly consider anything that would point to me being town.

That vote is so incredibly bad and reactionary it's almost physically hurting me. Like, do you have any sort of justification for voting Bear aside from the fact that he's voting you and calling you out on a legitimate point?

First... hey, I'm sorry if you took it personally. I'll tone it down.

My reason for voting bear is as stated above: I think that it's odd that he would vote for me while completely disregarding the possibility of my claim being correct. He ignores what we've learned from night actions, and votes me for his his "legitimate point" that I've posted a lot of times in D2 without giving any personal scumreads.

At this point, I think it can be agreed upon between us both that basing a vote on opinions that do not at all take into consideration roles nor night actions is bad play. This is what bearclaw did, and hence I voted him.

Most telling thing in my defense is this - scum tried to roleblock me last night so that I would be unable to present the information I said I could deliver on D1. Unless someone is able to explain why this is not the case, their case on me contradicts the facts before us that ensure I am not scum. I have yet to see Shin, bearclaw or Eurykins address this, and yet they still voted me.

[charlie_]

i wish my not!townreads would post more

[charlie_]

Okay so I find BBM kinda weird. He's not actively... scummy, I guess, but I feel like his play has been really passive which is something I don't really expect of town!BBM and he just feels sort of detatched from the game and lacking emotion which I normally tend to see more of in town!BBM. His last two posts are kinda better in this respect, at least.

Gonna do this instead though.

##Vote: Eurykins

I already stated why I disliked eclipse's D1 play, and Eury's Kopf suspicion being the main one is just sort of lazy imo, she's just focussing in on one post and says "oh he's lurkscum", her Poly suspicion was pretty much that he was inactive and the Poet one seems kinda reactive to how he viewed her playerslot more than anything else. Basically more opinions on why someone is scum without activity involved please.

I think I have way too many townreads.

[Green Poet]

More in my defense, in response to Flan.

The claim coasting doesn't help much either, since both aspects of her role have been commonly used as scum roles in the past, much as Bear said.

Safeguard, not roleblocker. Waiting for your reconsideration now.

Like, I don't even know if I can write this off as noob town anymore. In addition, she's given precisely one consistent scumread throughout the game (on Clipsey, who subbed out and caused GP to back off of said read), and that one read was mostly justified by the meta read that "oh, clipsey's a mod, she should be posting more". So, you're basically voting an inactive to push an easy lynch?

This is far from the first time I've had to say this:

My case on eclipse was not mostly based on her being a mod. It was on how she was inactive and essentially stated that "I will be inactive until your posts give me reasons not to be." If eclipse was scum, then this would be an excellent excuse not to say anything.

Next person to bring up the exact same qualm with my eclipse read will receive this exact same answer.

When you specifically mention Kopf alongside of her, who would likely have been easier to lynch based on inexperience in mafia compared to Clipsey (NOT ACTUALLY SURE IF THIS POINT IS TRUE, IF KOPF'S PLAYED A BUNCH OF MAFIA BEFORE THEN DISREGARD THIS)?

Seriously?

You know Kopfjager and aren't sure of his meta.

I don't know Kopfjager and you expected me to know his meta. I don't think this argument makes sense to either of us.

This really was a bad read of me. I don't think you're definitively scummy for coming up with reasons like these, but it would improve my read of you a lot if you would offer your thoughts as to why scum would try to block me.

[MRDRHAWK]

ftr, I've never maf'd with Kopf before, I know him through other means.

Also, that reasoning for the clipsey slot is still bad, because you're still pushing an inactive, even if she's choosing to do so (which does give you a bit better ground, but not by much).

also fuck stop mixing up your roles gahhhhhhhhhhhhhh, first you were Follower, then Hooker, now Safeguard

tbf, assuming you're legit with this claim, I have seen mafia safeguards before though (BBM in Healer, mainly), but that is more of a townie role to possess. It's possible that it's a fake - and a damn good one - but mehhhhhhh.

##Unvote

I need to talk with Marth about what he got out of D1 before I move forwards to do more re-reads.

[MRDRHAWK]

also the Unvote is conditional of GP's claim being legit in some manner

GP, who did you target last night, if anyone?

oh, and if we're keeping track of claims, I'm 1-shot Driver (used last night) and 1-shot self-Safeguard. Class given in flavor is War Magus, if that helps any veteran EO players out in figuring out if it's legit or not.

[Da Bear]

I don't see what needed clarification green, you gave us your results and we already knew your role. You spent like 2-3 posts just claiming your action.

Also that rolespeccing hasn't gotten us anywhere, we were no closer to finding scum after the great rolespeccing than we were at phase start. I don't find that to be useful.

The D1 stuff is my case anyway so

Also my case is more "actions > claims and your actions are scummy" then "I'm going to stick my fingers in my ears and ignore every good thing about you".

The roleblock thing actually is a fair point though, makes a green lynch less appealing but doesn't really confirm her as town. Atm my only other scum read is eli ( I spent the night building a case on FDG -_-) and he's hardly posted so voting him would stagnate stuff. I need to iso and stuff tonight. If you guys have preferences on who I should check out feel free to say so.

[Green Poet]

GP, who did you target last night, if anyone?

I followed Refa, and confirmed that he hooked someone.

also fuck stop mixing up your roles gahhhhhhhhhhhhhh, first you were Follower, then Hooker, now Safeguard

Terribly sorry for the confusion.

To be clear now, I'm a 1-shot follower (now used up) and a 2-shot safeguard (neither used). Can't self-target; can't use both in one night.

[Da Bear]

Wait GP is safeguard?

[scorri]

That's been known for a while, and has been stated by multiple people.

[Green Poet]

I don't see what needed clarification green, you gave us your results and we already knew your role. You spent like 2-3 posts just claiming your action.

I ended up claiming Refa's action before he stated it, so I don't see what's wrong with the number of posts it took.

As for clarification - I'm guessing you didn't read all of D2 yet? What we'd clarified was that there are only two confirmed hookers, as I'm a safeguard rather than a hooker. We'd used terminology I wasn't familiar with.

What can I say, really... I'll try to be more concise in the future?

Also that rolespeccing hasn't gotten us anywhere, we were no closer to finding scum after the great rolespeccing than we were at phase start. I don't find that to be useful.

Not true. We established that there's a lesser chance of a doctor existing than we could reasonably expect on D1, and we came up with scenarios we can refer to if and when we determine the existence of another hooker.