School of Hard NOCs - Night 6 ends on Mar. 15 at 9:00 PM HST

[Da Bear]

nvm it's 102

wow

such long

very time

[Da Bear]

meh if Eclipse could postflip now I would hammer because at this point some flips would help discussion more than anything else but if we would have to wait anyway then I won't

[Prims]

I'm willing to give Paper's replacement a chance especially if it's Bal who I already pinged on IRC please sub in Bal. Anyway I don't want to use up all extra 23 hours up; letting the day drag on is anti-town since it means more threadspam and more time for townies to second-guess themselves.

[Prims]

like if we had claims it'd be better for the town to just hammer somebody now and go on to D2

but unfortunately we don't and have an incoming sub

if you guys want different wagons than paper/ffm though then push that shit NOW and not in 20 hours, we're not having last minute wagons in a 100 hour day phase.

[Randa]

I don't know man. I'm probably gonna logout for the night so I'm just gone stay voteless for now.

[Prims]

I'm still catching up on the day's content. I will say that SB does have one legitimate point, and that's that I didn't consider Rajam's wagoner's actions if we assume he's scum. Will do so in a bit.

uhhhhh none of this matters because Rajam Has Not Flipped Yet. Instead of telling us who will be scummy once Rajam flips you should tell us who is scummy right now on Day 1 and why we should lynch them. The fact that you would respond to SB by looking into this when it's not really relevant makes me think you're trying to look productive without really being so.

[Prims]

tl;dr if rajam is town or scum we can worry about his interactions with people once we know what he is for sure, not right now

[Radiant Dragon]

uhhhhh none of this matters because Rajam Has Not Flipped Yet. Instead of telling us who will be scummy once Rajam flips you should tell us who is scummy right now on Day 1 and why we should lynch them. The fact that you would respond to SB by looking into this when it's not really relevant makes me think you're trying to look productive without really being so.

Fair enough. My browser just ate my post anyway so I don't mind not having to re-type it all. Still have to re-type actual relevant info, though. *Sigh*...

[Radiant Dragon]

"Please stop attacking me, I don't like it". I'm attacking you, of course I'm not going to try and paint you in a positive light. It's bad because you have so much content that just seems like it's there for padding's sake to appear like you're contributing more than you are. You immediately said "oh man my Raymond read is probably bad because I suck" right after which doesn't really help your case.

Neat. Why am I scum again? You just seem to arrive to the conclusion that I'm scum because my attack on you is bad, except it isn't.

When your points about my posts are rebutted by the content in said posts, I have to question your motives for attempting to misrepresent me. I can't think of a reason why Town would do that, so... In fact, the bolded is another attempt to do so, seeing as I never implied that my read was bad, just coming from someone who isn't all that great at NOC, which I'd already explained in the post you quoted.

The scum intent in RD's posts are that basically all of his analysis has been worthless considering it's based off of a viewpoint that he doesn't even hold himself, but the only attempt he makes to address that is by attacking me for calling him out for it. He feels sort of disconnected from the game, in that sense.

Again, the bolded statement is wrong. I had posted some thoughts on Paper and JB, as well as BBM's and Fire Flower's recent votes. Not to mention the analysis of Rajam himself. But of course, since all of that is detrimental to your attempts at making me look bad, you decide to ignore over half of my post instead.

I had more, but I simply don't have the motivation to try and type it out again since I'm also packing and getting ready to relocate (should be moving into my new apartment sometime next week if all goes well) and that obviously takes priority over this game. I'll be sure to get on before phase-end tomorrow, though.

It seems there are a few other people who dislike JB as well, so we could get together and take a third option for today's lynch due to the phase extension, if people want to go that way. Would also lynch SB or Rajam as a distant third, but I don't feel too good about lynching Paper or Fire Flower yet, and definitely not until they have a chance to claim at least.

[BBM]

ughhhh

Man this sucks. Paper's posts just seemed really detached and disinterested and I feel pretty confident he's scum. But idk if it's fair to lynch him if he's subbing out.

##Unvote, ##Vote: JB this is definitely better than FFM

I think what I dislike most is how he switched from Rajam to FFM. There wasn't much of an explanation why FFM was worse than Rajam and it just came at a time when everybody seemed to be moving away from Rajam. Also the Rajam vote is like... not really explaining why asking questions is so bad. And the FFM vote as well just feels weak and doesn't even take him being new into account. At least the other people who voted FFM took that into consideration but there's none of that here.

Would also lynch Rajam but I'm not sure there's anyone here right now who wants to lynch him?

[Prims]

I don't want to lynch Rajam. I thought his case on Raymond looked like reasonable town effort even though I don't agree with it. Just wish he'd actually respond to people more.

[BBM]

Is there anyone who's a wagon who's even here right now? I see some people hesitating in lynching Paper because he's not here to claim, but if JB and Rajam aren't either it doesn't really make a difference.

[Kaoz]

Kaoz, how do you feel about Prims currently?

I'm still pretty null on him myself, but the fact that four people felt weird about him at one point or another is making me wary.

Also, since the phase got extended and I'm not really awake yet, I'll be back in a couple hours. I agree with Prims that a D1 this long isn't desirable, but if we want to get claims before lynching, I don't think we'll have much of a choice.

[BBM]

Meant to say JB and FFM there.

But nvm I realized that phase got extended. Before I just saw the first sentence in that post about Paperblade subbing out and then skipped the rest. >_> Got a midterm in the morning so I'm going to bed.

[Kaoz]

Man this sucks. Paper's posts just seemed really detached and disinterested and I feel pretty confident he's scum. But idk if it's fair to lynch him if he's subbing out.

You shouldn't feel bad about the lynch just because he's subbing out. His actions won't suddenly disappear, unless you're saying the sub out makes you see them in a different light?

Would lynch Rajam over Paper('s sub) and FF.

Is there anyone who's a wagon who's even here right now? I see some people hesitating in lynching Paper because he's not here to claim, but if JB and Rajam aren't either it doesn't really make a difference.

They should all be back before phase ends I'd think. The better question is who of them should actually claim. Like if Paper's sub can put up a defense that they think will get the votes off them, they shouldn't claim in my opinion.

[Balcerzak]

I tried contacting eclipse on IRC but she's inactive (perhaps incapacitated from her test alread?)

I'll leave this here saying I'll take the slot as soon as she's able.

[eclipse]

Balcerzak has been subbed in for Paperblade

And with that, I'm going to do something rather foolish. See ya all tomorrow morning~!

[Balcerzak]

Okay, I've been doing some skimming and all, so forgive me if I've missed some of the later, more important details, but the main reason for the large wagon on Paperblade is because of

Oh god why did I sign up for this game

@BBM: Yes. Their names are confusing.

I'm not really comfortable with the Rajam wagon atm, there's like 7 people on it or something ridiculous and I think SB's most recent post about RD avoiding early wagons is suspicious. Aren't you avoiding an early wagon by voting him?

##Unvote, ##Vote: SB

this post, and subsequent analysis of it?

Honestly, this late in the game it might be hard to mount a successful defense without resorting to a claim, but I'm going to try to follow that approach at least for now. Sadly, there's no thoughts quicktopic or notes left by my predecessor in the role pm, but we'll see what I can do with what's available.

Paper why do your posts sound like your posts from the game motk game where you were scum

I can barely remember mafia of the gods, let alone Paper's tone in or out of that game. Actually, that might not even be the right abbreviation now that I take a closer look at it. You'll probably never be able to get the sort of response you're hoping from on this one though, but if you can point out any specifics, it might help me go over and say "huh, yeah that's an odd coincidence" or something, I guess?

Next I see

I dunno I used to think that any vote was better than no vote because I can change it any time, but then that led a lot of the times to me voting someone just because I didn't have anything better rather than because I actually found them suspicious. That's okay super early on to instigate more discussion but after a certain point it's kind of useless. At least not voting anyone is a better indication of where my reads are at.

Paperblade's vote kind of sucks because there's obviously a clear difference between avoiding wagons for the sake of avoiding wagons (what SB is accusing RD of doing) and avoiding wagons because you find a non-wagon more suspicious. I mean, I don't know if I agree that assessment of RD but Paperblade's vote doesn't seem to be on the point. Also Paperblade went from "Rajam's sheeping is bad" to "Rajam's wagon is bad". What's bad about the wagon considering you were cool with voting him in your last post?

The earlier post you're referring to where Paperblade was harping on the sheeping was

Seems to me like Ranja was getting on bear but apparently he just reads+posts weird? The sheeping is pretty bad though, worse than whatever SB is doing (nothing)

I don't really see how bearclaw is scummy at this point. This isn't really like Fakeclaim, I got a distinct "You are trying too hard' feeling from bear in Fakeclaim.

Whoever Paperblade actually intended, he was contrasting their behaviour with SB's, which indicates (at least to my mind) that SB was a suspect under his consideration for scum, and thus I don't find it entirely unsurprising that he would move his vote when some factor or combination of factors caused a change in the equilibrium.

What might have changed Paperblade's opinion between his post where he was talking about Rajam being "kinda sheepy" and the post where he switched his vote? "What's bad about the wagon considering you were cool with voting him in your last post?"

Oh, I don't know, maybe it having doubled in size rather quickly

##Unvote

##Poke with a really sharp stick: Rajam

##Vote: Rajam

##Unvote

##Vote: Rajam

##Vote: Rajam

4 votes piling up in rapid succession is often enough to make me at least second guess earlier opinions I might have had. There were 4 votes between Paperblade's posts. I can't stress that enough.

As for an increase in suspicion on SB? Well, personally I'm inclined to agree with you as far as there is "obviously a clear difference between avoiding wagons for the sake of avoiding wagons (what SB is accusing RD of doing) and avoiding wagons because you find a non-wagon more suspicious," so I'm not really sure how to justify Paper's vote. Maybe he wasn't entirely sure how to justify it either, but really wanted to back away from the Rajam wagon, and since he'd already had prior suspicions, threw down the SB vote with what seemed at the time a decent enough claim of hypocrisy. I honestly can't say.

More to come, in terms of who I think is scum, but I'm probably gonna need a little more time as far as that goes. Also, please, point me to any specific other areas of concern I need to address. Subbing in under fire isn't exactly the easiest, and I don't want to overlook anything.

[Prims]

MotK = maidens of the kaleidoscope, the touhou site where I started playing mafia like 4 years ago (wow it's been a while). There was a fairly recent game there (Mirai Nikki) where somebody got Paper to join the site and play and he rolled scum, which can be read here http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,15570.0.html (although you might need an account). That said, the accusation wasn't because I was making a meta-case for him being scum, it was being I had a negative gut reaction to his posts and wanted to see how he'd justify himself in response.

[Balcerzak]

No, you don't just "become uncomfortable" with a wagon you started (Paper was the first person to vote Rajam) simply because it gets big. If you're actually confident in the read, then a bunch of other people also voting him should be a good thing, not a bad thing. And like Prims said, if Paper stopped liking it because he didn't like the manner in which other people were jumping on, then he should have made an attempt to actually look at which votes he didn't like, rather than pursuing something that wasn't connected to the Rajam wagon at all. And although I do think Rajam is scum, I'm not going to assume that while I look into Paperblade. If Rajam is town, maybe Paper just wanted to disassociate himself with that wagon before it got lynched, or anticipated others unvoting because of the speed of the wagon and wanted to be the first to do it. And yeah, if Rajam is scum, then it could easily be an early bus from Paper that he didn't want to have build into a D1 scum lynch. Paperblade busses his buddies all the time as scum.

As to whether I find Rajam or Paperblade worse- why does not making this exact distinction clear matter? I did make it clear that I thought both were scummy. Voting isn't the only way I can commit to a read. As for it being early when I unvoted- it's not how many hours into the game we are that matters; it's how much progress we've made. We were out of RVS and the Randa vote was based on me misreading to begin with. Kaoz's vote just seems kinda off in general.

Also it seems to have suddenly become cool to unvote Rajam just because the wagon grew too fast, which I kind of don't get. At this point I think I do find Paperblade worse because of what I talked about in the first paragraph, but I want Rajam to answer my question. The bit about SB not accepting your doublevote offer applied even before Prims made his case. Then why did you find SB townie before Prims made that case?

Shinori- except SB left after he made that question. It's not like he made the question and then stuck around and kept talking about nothing. Shinori do you have any reads other than SB?

I can kind of see the JB case? dunno will reread in a bit. Don't like the FFM case. It hasn't been explained that his behaviour is scummy; all the reasons people are giving just look like a consequence of him not knowing what to do, which is at the least independent of alignment, and if you do want to ascribe an alignment to it, it's more likely town because newbscum get buddies offering them advice.

moshi moshi vagrant desu

##Vote: Rajam

calm down

3 hours into the game, I don't think I'd have a solid read on anyone. I know Paperblade is a better player than I am, but it kind of looks to me like this was a semi-RVS that was extended for a bit due to discomfort with sheeping, and then abandoned when the wagon spiraled out of control. If I were Paper, I'd at this point be glad to point out which specific votes rustled my jimmies, but alas I am not.

Regarding Prims' concerns over feigned content in Paper's 123: I see them, I'm not ignoring them, but I honestly have no idea how to respond. His 123 doesn't make sense to me either, but sometimes you just think of something right after you'd hit post and decide "fuck it, I'll add it on." Also, thanks for the Maidens clarification and link.

[Scarlet]

Oh hey it's still D1

Dunno how to feel about Bal's defense. Makes me feel a bit better about him I guess? His explanations kinda make sense at least. Right now I mainly want to see his reads.

Regardless of that, I'll still take a JB lynch over a PB/Bal lynch, and due to the phase extension and the fact that multiple people have expressed concerns with him, I'm just gonna go for it.

##Unvote

##Use Scarlet Meister on: JB

[Balcerzak]

I'm finally through my first complete pass of the thread, but I really want to do some more work on ISOs before I post anything completely solid. Still, since it's almost 4 am and I'm going to need at least some sleep here soon, I don't want to leave you all with nothing.

Panda's 70 had initially tripped my spider senses because talking about Day 3 on Day 1 felt wtf, but without a reread and taking a closer look, that might amount to nothing.

I think a scum!bearclaw would have not been so forthcoming in pointing out the fact that mod-confirming votals confirming his role don't imply mod-confirming his alignment.

While I'd initially dismissed Kaoz's miller claim as RVS, it seemed to have survived the whole phase and never owned up to as a joke. Combined with competent output, leaning town-read.

Cannot comment on Slot 10, as I got literally opposite reads pre and post sub.

It felt like BBM was suffering a slight tunnel-vision, but that's a null-tell. Town and scum can both tunnel alike.

My priority rereads when I wake up tomorrow will probably be: Shinori and Radiant Dragon, based on gut, and FFM and JB based on probable lynchability.

Will try to do full ISOs and rereads of anyone with a vote on them too, though.

[Scarlet]

Also FFM, stop lurking.

Rather than just stating what people have done, give us some actual reads.

In particular, what do you think about JB and Prims respectively?

And now that Bal has subbed in for Paperblade and given some explanations, do you still feel he's worth lynching today?

[FrostyFireMage]

Well...JB seems to be interpreting a single line I said as "defensive" and thinks it's enough proof to warrant a vote, even though I truly am a townie. Plus they seem to be pretty detached from the whole thing (less than me, mind, but still...). Almost sounds like he's trying to start a lynch mob against me.

Prims...seems to be trying to get people on the Paperblade wagon (almost insistent, ie Prims #242, #243), until he was replaced by a sub.

Bal seems committed to ferreting out the scum and doesn't seem to be following any wagons etc so I think I'll pass on voting against them. Can't get a solid read on them with only a few posts.

##Unvote: Bal

##Vote: Prims

Prims feels like he tried to take advantage of Paperblade's absence to declare him scum and to convince others likewise.

[Scarlet]

Assuming that voting Prims was not an option, whom would you instead vote for at this point and why?