What makes a good/fair/well-done difficulty?

[Rewjeo]

Difficulty should come from many small challenges coming together in unique ways, not from one challenge that you chip away at the same way regardless of its magnitude.

[dondon151]

cog of destiny is really the only hard part of HHM.

let's ignore LTC for a moment. FE7 gives the player ridiculous prepromotes in hawkeye, pent, vaida, and maybe harken, in addition to the quintessential marcus, plus paladin sain from LHM, plus a jacked up florina from LHM. it doesn't have as much long range magic, and outside of CoD there aren't even that many bothersome status staves to my recollection.

when you bring LTC into the equation, you have to deal with additional factors, such as a weaker team on the whole due to shorter maps (FE7 has a handful of EXP mines known as defense maps whereas FE8 has no such thing) and a much more difficult time getting a warper due to the absence of a pent-equivalent unit.

obviously my perception is influenced by having played 0% growths for ever, but while FE7 is a walk in the park outside of CoD, i remember FE8 being no such thing.

[NinjaMonkey]

no, i actually think FE8 HM is more difficult than FE7 HHM.

Surely all you have to do to beat FE8's hard mode is to field Seth and have him kill everything, right?

[Florete]

I think HHM vs FE8 HM is an experience thing. If you know the ropes, HHM is likely going to be easier. If you go in not necessarily "blind" but not as an expert, FE8 HM is probably easier.

You can plan for things better in HHM, but you need to know what to plan.

Edited March 16, 2014 by Red Fox of Fire

[dondon151]

Surely all you have to do to beat FE8's hard mode is to field Seth and have him kill everything, right?

what's stopping you from doing the same in FE7 with marcus...

[chococoke]

what's stopping you from doing the same in FE7 with marcus...

Seth is all around superior to Marcus in terms of base stats and growths. All he's missing are axes. Marcus actually starts missing on doubling common enemies like cavaliers if he doesn't get any speed procs (reasonable given his awful growth.) Meanwhile, Seth's crack growths ensure that he rapes everything, always.

[PKL]

Notice how enemies in HHM pack weapons that slow them down. Notice how Marcus in 0% growths still tears the game open a new one.

[BBM]

HHM is a chump difficulty. Everyone always points to Cog of Destiny, but if u played HNM before like youre supposed to, you know how the map works by now, just add magic users that are actually pretty chumpy and u just win the mode. It's pretty easy. I don't agree that FE8 is harder though. Perhaps it is easier for dondon because of 0% growths.

I played CoD like a whole bunch of times and never figured out that the reinforcements are based on entering certain zones until I started drafting and I saw that people got super low TCs and asked them how they did so. I don't think the average casual player would figure out the reinforcement patterns that easily.

I feel like FE8 HM is more frustrating in a lot of ways because the map design is more intelligent and requires more thought as far as low-turning goes because of things like status staves (Father and Son comes to mind) and more annoying enemy layouts in Rout maps and such. But for players who're willing to go slower (by turtling through status staves and whatnot) it's much easier due to weaker enemies, stronger effective weaponry and better growth units.

[-Cynthia-]

I find Genesis to be a fairly difficult chapter on HHM as well as the infamous CoD and can't really think of many difficult FE8 chapters.

[Dark Sage]

the most annoying part of FE8 that never seems to get mentioned much fsr are the abundance of siege magic in the lategame stages.

Shadowshot Archmogalls/Gorgons hit really really damn hard. 35 attack hitting resistance is seriously no joke. I think it can get higher too sometimes.

[BBM]

I find Genesis to be a fairly difficult chapter on HHM as well as the infamous CoD and can't really think of many difficult FE8 chapters.

Ghost Ship and Father and Son are pretty difficult IMO. What really made Father and Son difficult for me was the challenge of recruiting Rennac. You have to hunt him down, so you can't turtle through the Sleep and Berserk staves, and then you also need to escort a healer through a gauntlet of enemies if you don't want to fork over a bunch of gold. Queen of White Dunes is also sort of annoying. Scorched Sand is not difficult but really frustrating to low turn for me at least, as is Two Faces of Evil.

[dondon151]

Seth is all around superior to Marcus in terms of base stats and growths.

nonsense. their base stats are so similar that the differences are hardly worth mentioning. differences in growths would matter if we cared about them at all; marcus needs 3 spd procs by midgame in order to be all set, and he has no trouble with most of the remainder of the game given that condition is satisfied (which it should be on average).

Marcus actually starts missing on doubling common enemies like cavaliers if he doesn't get any speed procs (reasonable given his awful growth.) Meanwhile, Seth's crack growths ensure that he rapes everything, always.

there's an odd contradiction here where you bring up the possibility that marcus can get spd screwed but then carry on in the next sentence to assert that the randomness of growth rates "ensures" that seth steamrolls the game.

i agree with BBM that it's much more difficult to LTC FE8 HM than it is to LTC FE7 HHM.

[eclipse]

Just my two cents, but I can comfortably draft FE8 HM, and have problems with FE7 HHM without drafting. EHM is good if I want to be brain-dead.

For difficulty, I don't want stupid amounts of surprises (FE12 Chapter 12 I am looking at you). Likewise, I don't want to have one super-unit that can kill everything (that's you, FE4 Gen 1). Give me a problem with many interesting solutions, and I'll pay attention!

[ZemZem]

Distant Blade is also a bit annoying to low turn in drafts, as well. At least it was for me.

[N7隊長ジョン]

the most annoying part of FE8 that never seems to get mentioned much fsr are the abundance of siege magic in the lategame stages.

Shadowshot Archmogalls/Gorgons hit really really damn hard. 35 attack hitting resistance is seriously no joke. I think it can get higher too sometimes.

The abundance of siege magic also most definitely makes fe8 that much more to LTC Ironman style, since if you get unlucky with bullshot ShadowShots, you can use your main Vanguard easily.

People say the early game of SS is quite easy, but the late game can be quite a pain if you're not allowing resets and any unlucky events that happen can't be reset.

[chococoke]

there's an odd contradiction here where you bring up the possibility that marcus can get spd screwed but then carry on in the next sentence to assert that the randomness of growth rates "ensures" that seth steamrolls the game.

I was merely pointing out that Seth's growths usually make his levels actually mean something. It is much easier for Marcus to miss out on a few levels of speed. Seth, however, is not only less worried about not gaining specific stats upon level up, but will likely be achieving some very good levels. Yes, growths are random so everything I'm saying is automatically invalidated; however, you cannot deny that Seth is basically Marcus with the growth rates of a non-Jeigan in a game with weaker enemies.

The overall point I'm trying to make is that, while Marcus does in fact reduce the difficult of HHM to trivial levels, Seth does all of that and more for FE8!HM. I always found that mode to be somewhat of a joke. Phantom Ship and Father and Son really aren't very difficult compared to Genesis and Cog of Destiny in my opinion

[BBM]

@Eclipse- but that's just really the stronger enemies. Once you figure out how to get past that, the maps themselves are quite linear for the most part. CoD is admittedly difficult but other than that FE7 has very few Rout maps past earlygame, and Seize/Kill Boss objectives are almost always easier*. In fact unless I'm mistaken CoD, Living Legend, Genesis, and PFoD Jerme mode are the only Rout maps in the latter half of the game, and two of them probably won't get visited in an LTC run. Eirika mode (the one you'll probably be doing for LTC purposes) admittedly skips out on some of the hardest chapters in the game but still has 5 Rout maps, and something like Village of Silence is another good example of a map that's easy to beat but harder to LTC because of enemies on the mountains and stuff that requires clever positioning of units to beat quickly. And then Eph mode replaces Village of Silence with the somewhat similar Fluorspar's Oath, replaces Distant Blade and Creeping Darkness with the more difficult Ghost Ship and Landing at Taizel, and replaces Queen of White Dunes with Father and Son.

*FE6 is an exception because fuck thrones and because enemy strength is much higher and maps are so huge that even in Seize maps you need more than a flier, a warper, and a bosskiller.

@Dondon- I think what Chococoke was saying was that it's much easier for Marcus to fall behind on SPD than it is for Seth.

FE9 HM I think also falls into the same category as FE8 in that it's not really as difficult to complete because lolBEXP but even with a superflier, LTCing I think (never tried low-turning FE9 myself) seems more difficult than FE7 because of Shoving, which requires clever use of all your units to utilize effectively.

And HHM also has HM bonus units. For casual purposes, a trained Raven is actually kind of ridiculous and can probably solo everything after he promotes except CoD and Battle Before Dawn.

Edited March 16, 2014 by Red Fox of Fire

[Refa]

^^FE8 has some unpromoted units with really good bases though. Like in Eirika route, you get Gerik roughly in the same amount of time you get Raven (...maybe? could be a chapter or two later, FE7 chapter counts confuse me) and he's way better. Ditto for Joshua and Guy. And Ephraim Route!Cormag is probably better than any FE7 flier? Tana might beat the FE7 Pegasus Knights too, I dunno. Maybe not with Lyn Mode training...

Ghost Ship and Father and Son are pretty difficult IMO. What really made Father and Son difficult for me was the challenge of recruiting Rennac. You have to hunt him down, so you can't turtle through the Sleep and Berserk staves, and then you also need to escort a healer through a gauntlet of enemies if you don't want to fork over a bunch of gold. Queen of White Dunes is also sort of annoying. Scorched Sand is not difficult but really frustrating to low turn for me at least, as is Two Faces of Evil.

Ghost Ship is obnoxious on your first try, but after you have a general idea of where things are, it gets a lot easier. As for Father & Son, I made it there with time to spare when it came to recruiting Rennac. Basically I just danced Gerik to kill almost all of the enemies on Turn 1 with a Hand Axe, and it was smooth sailing from there (besides the status staves, but that was my fault for not packing enough Restores). Selena's Map is the hardest, or at least in 0% growths. It might be easier if Seth could double and kill things, I dunno. I still think it'd be pretty hard. It's just a very well designed map.

Just my two cents, but I can comfortably draft FE8 HM, and have problems with FE7 HHM without drafting. EHM is good if I want to be brain-dead.

That's probably more to do with the high enemy density early on in HHM (which makes things a real PITA when you can't use all of your units) and the low EXP formula which makes it a lot harder to bring growth units up to snuff. Or maybe HHM is actually harder, I dunno.

[dondon151]

^^FE8 has some unpromoted units with really good bases though. Like in Eirika route, you get Gerik roughly in the same amount of time you get Raven (...maybe? could be a chapter or two later, FE7 chapter counts confuse me) and he's way better. Ditto for Joshua and Guy. And Ephraim Route!Cormag is probably better than any FE7 flier? Tana might beat the FE7 Pegasus Knights too, I dunno. Maybe not with Lyn Mode training...

you get raven earlier in FE7 than you do gerik in FE8 (raven effectively joins in chapter 7). cormag is barely any better than heath, and florina is much better than any FE8 flier.

none of the objections have adequately contested my arguments that FE7 has better player units on the whole and much easier map objectives. a common interjection is "but seth!" what about marcus, sain, and florina? then comes "but gerik!" what about raven, hawkeye, and pent? finally there is "but CoD and genesis!" CoD is really very easy in a casual context and only difficult in LTC, but FE8 has many more maps that are tricky to LTC. genesis you technically don't even have to go to, but i'll concede genesis with the caveat that one map does not make a mode.

the take-home point here is that we're so accustomed to the opinions that FE8 HM is so easy and FE7 HHM is the perfect difficulty when both conceptions are demonstrably false. FE7 HHM is in fact not that much more difficult, if at all, than FE8 HM, so there is an inconsistency in the way we judge FE7 and FE8 that we've never bothered to reflect on (until hopefully, now).

EDIT: here's a misconception that i forgot to clear up.

Marcus actually starts missing on doubling common enemies like cavaliers if he doesn't get any speed procs (reasonable given his awful growth.)

11 spd marcus doubles all cavaliers in chapter 25. he only has trouble on cavaliers before then if he misses his average spd at --/9 or so.

Edited March 16, 2014 by dondon151

[-Cynthia-]

There are a few other FE7 maps I think are on the more challenging side, like PFoD Jerme version and Night of Farewells. Living Legend and Battle Before Dawn also have some RNG aspects with the NPC units that people frequently complain about.

I will say overall that FE7 is probably only a little more difficult than FE8 though. Maybe FE7 feels harder because it's a longer game or something?

[Refa]

you get raven earlier in FE7 than you do gerik in FE8 (raven effectively joins in chapter 7). cormag is barely any better than heath, and florina is much better than any FE8 flier.

none of the objections have adequately contested my arguments that FE7 has better player units on the whole and much easier map objectives. a common interjection is "but seth!" what about marcus, sain, and florina? then comes "but gerik!" what about raven, hawkeye, and pent? finally there is "but CoD and genesis!" CoD is really very easy in a casual context and only difficult in LTC, but FE8 has many more maps that are tricky to LTC. genesis you technically don't even have to go to, but i'll concede genesis with the caveat that one map does not make a mode.

I don't disagree with what you said about FE7 having better units as a whole...I was replying to BBM's HM bonus thing, because I don't think any FE7 characters with HM bonuses are significantly better than their FE8 counterparts. Yeah, Florina is probably better than the FE8 fliers with Lyn Mode; otherwise I'd say she's worse than Vanessa.

[arvilino]

There are a few other FE7 maps I think are on the more challenging side, like PFoD Jerme version and Night of Farewells. Living Legend and Battle Before Dawn also have some RNG aspects with the NPC units that people frequently complain about.

I will say overall that FE7 is probably only a little more difficult than FE8 though. Maybe FE7 feels harder because it's a longer game or something?

There could be multiple reasons.

Maybe it's the ability to buy things from shops at any time on the world map in FE8. The first time I did HHM years and years back I remember having a difficult time on CoD because I had no Pure Waters, had only a few uses of barrier staff remaining and had next to no ranged physical weapons remaining, it can get pretty tough if you make a mistake and buy too few of certain weapons and items.

Maybe many didn't use the prepromotes. If I recall the community decided the difficulty of the games back when prepromotes were not even considered worth using which in FE7s case would make HHM significantly more difficult if you intentionally avoided using Marcus, Hawkeye, Pent, Louise, Harken, Geitz, Jaffar,Vaida and even Isadora or Wallace

Or Maybe a lot of players grinded characters up using the tower of Valni in FE8 and judged the difficulty based on that.

Edited March 16, 2014 by arvilino

[Baldrick]

If LHM is assumed, Raven comes about the same time as Gerik, taking into account % of chapters completed. If LHM is ignored, Sain and Florina are much weaker.

[XeKr]

Or Maybe a lot of players grinded characters up using the tower of Valni in FE8 and judged the difficulty based on that.

Yeah. What could be considered the equivalent in FE7 (safe arena abuse with Ninis Grace), is a bit more obscure.

I also wonder if the release order had a bit to do with it. Not everyone goes back to replay them. For many, FE7 HHM was probably the first hard mode they’d had to deal with (unexpected reinforcements, fog of war, status staves, other gimmicks like disappearing bridges and Kishuna etc). They’re a bit more prepared or are better players when it does show up in the next game (it feels less common in FE8 too, but I dunno). And perhaps S ranking is a reason for a few players.

Other trivial things may also play a surface-level role, like the player getting lots of legendaries (omg the 3x effective damage) and a few of the final chapters being monster based. So it feels easier in that context.

Also for the record, I also didn't observe any noticeable difference in difficulty when I replayed the two recently (somewhat casually). It was perhaps a bit easier than I expected, though.

Edited March 16, 2014 by XeKr

[Florete]

CoD is really very easy in a casual context and only difficult in LTC,

CoD is actually pretty difficult if you're not prepared for it.

And I think the one real big thing that would make FE8 HM easier than HHM is something that's being forgotten/ignored because so many of us are purists who avoid it: Tower of Valni and random skirmishes, which FE7 has no equivalent to.