jiodi Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 lol Christ. Well, to be fair to the J-man, im not so sure he was a cult leader. I definitely do not think he was what everyone thinks he was. I think he was a guy with a good idea...well...mostly good idea. I consider him a cult leader because, while being a genuinely good guy, by today's definition you have someone like that preaching stuff come out of the woodwork he will be reviled as a cult leader. It doesn't help that most cult leaders nowadays just wanna do everyone's wives and daughters....but still. It was less a knock on Jesus and more...well a bad joke, really >.< Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blah the Prussian Posted April 1, 2014 Author Share Posted April 1, 2014 Yes, because no one remembers the Spanish Inquisition amirite? :P Is it unfair to judge ancient civilizations that sacrificed children to appease the gods? Just because it was accepted at the time does not mean we should necessarily give it a pass. How would we ever define the morality of contemporary culture if we did not establish where we stood on past civilization? How do we know that what we believe to be right is right? While I do concede on the sacrificing part, ultimately we do not know what part of our moral code will be looked upon by future civilizations with disgust. Omg. I'm starting to suspect you're a troll because your responses are seriously not sharp at all. I just gave you a method based on empathy which allows you to judge actions without considering time. So then anyone who does something someone else might not like, even if it is for the greater good, is evil? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jiodi Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 How do we know that what we believe to be right is right? While I do concede on the sacrificing part, ultimately we do not know what part of our moral code will be looked upon by future civilizations with disgust. Of course it will! If society and culture fails to evolve with technology (which it is currently doing at an insanely slow pace) we will blow the shit out of ourselves before we get a chance to look back on the present and be like "man those guys were idiots". Honestly, moral and cultural relativism has a solid argument. I happen to not agree with it wholly, but can understand where people who view, say, Genghis Khan in a more positive light than "oh he's a bad guy". Right now we are supposed to be better than even the great societies of past civilizations because we have connected like never before as a world culture. But there is so much wrong and so much fear and so much money made by so many assholes who profit off of these issues that we can fairly easily see how we would be looked down upon by more culturally advanced civilizations. It's easy to put things in buckets, Hitler was evil, but as others on this thread have mentioned, he was insanely charismatic and actually did great things for the German economy/nationalism. I hate taking a general stance on historical figures when they should only be looked at based on actions, based on the context of the conversation. I live in a country that nearly committed genocide on the indigenous population of this land, enslaved another race of people (which was pretty much standard throughout history, but that doesn't make it okay) and is currently the big bully of the world. When this country spirals out of control and everyone wonders wtf happened like it's a big mystery I wonder how the US will be viewed. As one of the greatest civilizations to exist? Or as a ruthless nation that felt superior to everyone else and used its world-decimating-a-bajillion-times-over nuclear arsenal to muscle its way into everyone else's affairs? It should be viewed in context of the discussion, the good and the bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blah the Prussian Posted April 2, 2014 Author Share Posted April 2, 2014 Of course it will! If society and culture fails to evolve with technology (which it is currently doing at an insanely slow pace) we will blow the shit out of ourselves before we get a chance to look back on the present and be like "man those guys were idiots". Honestly, moral and cultural relativism has a solid argument. I happen to not agree with it wholly, but can understand where people who view, say, Genghis Khan in a more positive light than "oh he's a bad guy". Right now we are supposed to be better than even the great societies of past civilizations because we have connected like never before as a world culture. But there is so much wrong and so much fear and so much money made by so many assholes who profit off of these issues that we can fairly easily see how we would be looked down upon by more culturally advanced civilizations. It's easy to put things in buckets, Hitler was evil, but as others on this thread have mentioned, he was insanely charismatic and actually did great things for the German economy/nationalism. I hate taking a general stance on historical figures when they should only be looked at based on actions, based on the context of the conversation. I live in a country that nearly committed genocide on the indigenous population of this land, enslaved another race of people (which was pretty much standard throughout history, but that doesn't make it okay) and is currently the big bully of the world. When this country spirals out of control and everyone wonders wtf happened like it's a big mystery I wonder how the US will be viewed. As one of the greatest civilizations to exist? Or as a ruthless nation that felt superior to everyone else and used its world-decimating-a-bajillion-times-over nuclear arsenal to muscle its way into everyone else's affairs? It should be viewed in context of the discussion, the good and the bad. America did not nearly commit genocide on the natives. We did. Our country is no longer the sole superpower. In fact, we have reached our period of decline. If the E.U. ever gets it's shit together it has the potential to overtake us as the leader of the free world, and China has a stronger army and an economy that is about to be stronger. The fact is, who is right and who is wrong are completely irrelevant. They change nothing. And, since the winners write history, in a sense, might does make right. And yes, I am a cynic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esau of Isaac Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 (edited) More people defending Hitler. I give up on this forum, where it's a bigger deal to like Galeforce than to defend Hitler and Genghis Khan. Why is it true that Hitler's men were more evil? He approved of their actions. Holy shit you are the most pretentious person in this subforum and that is saying a lot No one here defended him, the topic title refers to people who are overly hated. Hitler is so despised that a man who engineered the murder and internment of tens of millions of people is practically forgotten by the common man. Everyone here thinks Hitler was a vile person. But this is what I mean. The hate for him is so utter that even stating that he's disliked too much compared to others is apparently somehow an admission that he wasn't all bad. Edited April 2, 2014 by Esau of Isaac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 Holy shit you are the most pretentious person in this subforum and that is saying a lot No one here defended him, the topic title refers to people who are overly hated. Hitler is so despised that a man who engineered the murder and internment of tens of millions of people is practically forgotten by the common man. Everyone here thinks Hitler was a vile person. But this is what I mean. The hate for him is so utter that even stating that he's disliked too much compared to others is apparently somehow an admission that he wasn't all bad. Even blah said something right against this argument, and that says a lot about you, because he rarely says sharp things, and ignores most points. It's not that Hitler is hated too much, it's just that others are hated too little. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blah the Prussian Posted April 2, 2014 Author Share Posted April 2, 2014 Even blah said something right against this argument, and that says a lot about you, because he rarely says sharp things, and ignores most points. It's not that Hitler is hated too much, it's just that others are hated too little. Actually, your almost total reliance on personal attacks says a lot about you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 Actually, your almost total reliance on personal attacks says a lot about you. very few people enjoy conversing with an imbecile. It is unfair to judge people by the standards of our time(unless they are from our time). you made an assertion without evidence. this is not a statement that is innately true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blah the Prussian Posted April 2, 2014 Author Share Posted April 2, 2014 very few people enjoy conversing with an imbecile. you made an assertion without evidence. this is not a statement that is innately true. Yeah, that is a moral statement. There isn't evidence for moral statements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Laufeyson Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 I consider him a cult leader because, while being a genuinely good guy, by today's definition you have someone like that preaching stuff come out of the woodwork he will be reviled as a cult leader. It doesn't help that most cult leaders nowadays just wanna do everyone's wives and daughters....but still. It was less a knock on Jesus and more...well a bad joke, really >.< Ehh im not too arsed. (lolChristianity) I hear the song you are singing here, cuz you might be right. If someone was all doing Christ's gig these days, they'd be seen as a loony. But unlike then, they wouldnt die for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jiodi Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 Ehh im not too arsed. (lolChristianity) I hear the song you are singing here, cuz you might be right. If someone was all doing Christ's gig these days, they'd be seen as a loony. But unlike then, they wouldnt die for it. I'd be all for a religion that said "turn the other cheek and don't judge people and don't be a dick" like Jesus preached! America did not nearly commit genocide on the natives. We did. Our country is no longer the sole superpower. In fact, we have reached our period of decline. If the E.U. ever gets it's shit together it has the potential to overtake us as the leader of the free world, and China has a stronger army and an economy that is about to be stronger. The fact is, who is right and who is wrong are completely irrelevant. They change nothing. And, since the winners write history, in a sense, might does make right. And yes, I am a cynic. I'm gonna go ahead and assume we are agreeing here >.> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esau of Isaac Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 It's not that Hitler is hated too much, it's just that others are hated too little. Well that's just, like, your opinion man. Don't have to be such a Hitler about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blah the Prussian Posted April 2, 2014 Author Share Posted April 2, 2014 Well that's just, like, your opinion man. Don't have to be such a Hitler about it. Godwin's law! (Jest) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jiodi Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 Here's a good one to put up for debate: George W. Bush. This guy has gotten so much flak for the abysmal failures of his administration and being called a war criminal, etc. I would posit that the guy himself isn't as evil or as stupid as people make him out to be. In fact, considering what the right has nowadays Bush seems kind of awesome. As Governor of Texas, he was pretty bipartisan. He pushed hard for education funding and renewable energy in addition to his "faith-based welfare" and concealed carry stuff that makes him Republican. So for the most part the stuff to disagree with him on is pretty average Republican crap. And he got crap for the capital punishment thing (iirc: after Rick Perry, he presided over the most executions in the state), but the truth is I'm pretty sure the laws in Texas make it pretty hard for the Governor to pardon people if they wanted to. He tried to bring that bipartisanship to the White House but a lot of it failed. He did manage to get Medicare reform passed (enraging Republicans) and the No Child Left Behind act was a good faith measure to try and improve the state of our education system at the national level. It may have failed, but it was a bipartisan failure. He even signed a campaign finance reform bill! I mean the good part of the bill was overturned by fucking citizen's united, but still, I love anything that has to do with campaign finance reform. He's also the president that signed the do-not-call list bill into law. DO NOT CALL LISTS! And we always say he fucked up the economy, but shit rolls downhill. The big thing is "he was left with a huge surplus but left Obama with a huge deficit!" But we forgot that the dot-com bubble was bursting and shit put in place years before finally exploded in the guy's face. He also wasn't the one that deregulated big companies, allowing them to destroy the housing market, etc. He also gets mocked for his painting and whatever the hell it is he does nowadays. But he worked with Clinton to help victims of the disaster in Haiti out and is apparently a very effective motivational speaker (though his price is pretty high). On the environment, he's just in the wrong party. He took a stance that his administration would work to reduce greenhouse gasses and promote renewable energy sources but I guess once he realized he had no control over the presidency he changed his stance. I'm not riding the guy's cock, it's just nice to try and put things into perspective. The Iraq war may have been one of the stupidest things ever. The torture, the mismanagement of the economic crises (I know I defended him on it above, but the truth is his administration didn't handle it well) and the mostly just bending over to big money like all politicians do mired his ability to be an effective leader. I feel for our presidents. Guys like Carter and Bush Jr and I'm sure soon enough Obama are presidents in a world where you are responsible for everything the administration does and you are pretty much incapable of acting on your own volition. Bush was a marionette with good intentions. I really believe that. I disagree with much of his ideas and his policies, but what I see is a dude who was in over his head and, thanks to the poor decisions of his party and the guys pulling his strings, he now has to shoulder the weight of being considered one of the worst presidents in US history. His name is near-synonymous with Hitler to a lot of people. There was a petition to rename a sewage treatment plant after him. He is considered a war criminal by a lot of people. And I feel like he has taken it in stride and have a deep respect for the man on that basis. I mean, he talked to God and was never told to press the big red button! He's doing some silly things now that's fun to mock him about and stuff. And I'm sure there's other dumb shit about the guy I missed. But, eh, he gets more hate than he deserves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 (edited) I've [heard] that he's about as nice a guy as can be in person, yeah, and admittedly a lot of the reasons that the republicans today are so frustrating aren't because they're taking what he did and where he stood as gospel. And yeah, I doubt that every single one of the things people (including me) tend to think of as his fault could've happened without congress playing some significant part (though that's a guess all-around, having a hard time calling up any specifics). Even just the damage he did for our reputation (as if we needed it) is hard to ignore, though- there's a huge "we elected this guy twice?!" factor to it that I don't think we'll live down (or ought to) for a long time. He just was the farthest fucking thing from fit for the job. And it does remain that he was in the position for eight years, then left us with a load of shit that Republicans have tried to spin as not his (or their) fault. Edited April 4, 2014 by Rehab Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blah the Prussian Posted April 2, 2014 Author Share Posted April 2, 2014 I've that he's about as nice a guy as can be in person, yeah, and admittedly a lot of the reasons that the republicans today are so frustrating aren't because they're taking what he did and where he stood as gospel. And yeah, I doubt that every single one of the things people (including me) tend to think of as his fault could've happened without congress playing some significant part (though that's a guess all-around, having a hard time calling up any specifics). Even just the damage he did for our reputation (as if we needed it) is hard to ignore, though- there's a huge "we elected this guy twice?!" factor to it that I don't think we'll live down (or ought to) for a long time. He just was the farthest fucking thing from fit for the job. And it does remain that he was in the position for eight years, then left us with a load of shit that Republicans have tried to spin as not his (or their) fault. The real problem with Bush was Cheney. Cheney was the main reason the Bush years sucked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Wright Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 with the insightful post emphasizing that bush jr.'s era sucking was due to a multitude of factors and myriad people, you still attempt to get the idea across that we can lay blame on a single person. cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blah the Prussian Posted April 3, 2014 Author Share Posted April 3, 2014 with the insightful post emphasizing that bush jr.'s era sucking was due to a multitude of factors and myriad people, you still attempt to get the idea across that we can lay blame on a single person. cool. I didn't mean it that way. Cheney was the real power behind Bush. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 (edited) I would posit that the guy himself isn't as evil or as stupid as people make him out to be. evil, probably not. but definitely not a very intelligent dude. Edited April 3, 2014 by dondon151 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 Phoenix, it was said multiple times that the man's not quite a star wars villain. It's that just because every last detail wasn't all directly his fault, it's nowhere near enough to make his legacy any better than "fucking horrible" Oh yeah, and I forgot the "emergency" tax cuts that are still in place. Screw him twice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jiodi Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 (edited) I thought the country bumpkin thing was pretty deliberate and kind of hilariously endearing. From what I've read, as far removed from partisan bias on both sides as I can find, he's a helluva lot smarter than he lets on. Rehab, on 02 Apr 2014 - 5:29 PM, said: Phoenix, it was said multiple times that the man's not quite a star wars villain. It's that just because every last detail wasn't all directly his fault, it's nowhere near enough to make his legacy any better than "fucking horrible" Oh yeah, and I forgot the "emergency" tax cuts that are still in place. Screw him twice I'd put his presidency a couple notches above, to "below average". A neoconservative in the white house is a scary fucking notion, and there is a good chance someone like Rick Perry or--god forbid, and while not being a neocon, Ted Cruz would have done far more damage to this country than Bush did. EDIT: well... And as I discuss this turns out John Robert's is a goddamn asshole idiothead buttass: http://mobile.nytime...l?from=homepage Edited April 4, 2014 by jiodi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jiodi Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 (edited) EDIT: Why can't I delete this? Edited April 4, 2014 by jiodi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 I'm back, for now, but I'm hardly in any shape to do anything coherently. I'll see if this changes come tomorrow (whether I take any action depends on whether or not I can keep myself from blanking out randomly). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy_One Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 Honestly, a lot of the criticism Bush Jr. gets just doesn't make sense when you examine it. For example, the Iraq war. I'm not gonna say one way or the other if we should or shouldn't have been there, but what I will say is that a lot of people went from 'Iraq is a threat to the world' to 'anyone who thought Iraq was a threat to the world is a gun-toating redneck' rather fast. IMO, Bush Jr. was a president who probably was really trying his best to do the best thing for America and may have actually had some (not all, some) of the answers or was at least willing to try. My mom has a saying that 'each president is making up for the mistakes of the last'. I.E. what a president does right or wrong won't really impact people till the end of the term so the next president gets all the glory, or shame, that the prior one earned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 It doesn't take a lot of looking to find examples that your mother's aphorism doesn't account for. Lincoln and FDR on the brighter side, LBJ and Nixon on the worse side, for instance. Again, Bush's not being the only person responsible for post-9/11 U.S. aggression doesn't mean he is absolved of it, because behind it or not he pushed for and allowed much of it himself. Just to be explicit about it, yes, any president can only do so much, because the position doesn't actually have quite as much power as the title "leader of the free world" entails, on either an international or domestic scale, but he was easily the posterboy for a lot of things that have left shit still on our plate, and he's never shown much regret for it. I thought the country bumpkin thing was pretty deliberate and kind of hilariously endearing. From what I've read, as far removed from partisan bias on both sides as I can find, he's a helluva lot smarter than he lets on. I was a bit too engulfed by feeling embarrassed that "this guy represents my country to the rest of the world" I haven't heard much, just that he was a c-student in an ivy-league school and that he could take a joke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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