I still don't get the praise of this game...

[RJWalker]

I don't see how people can't see how great a game Awakening is. It has more customizability and things to do than any other game in the franchise by far. Marriage was pretty much always the reason fans used to think FE4 was the best game in the series. The dual support system is arguably one of the best mechanics introduced in the franchise and pair up has tons of depth to it as well, not to mention things like spotpass add on even more fun. The interface is more efficient and faster than ever before. There are just so many ways to play the game that the only thing the player is really limited by is their own creativity. Yeah, it can be easily broken, but being able to break the game is just one method of play, and there are always tons of challenge runs you can do just like in Pokemon with nuzlock runs. If a ranked mode system like FE6's or FE7's were in the game, cheesing the game with the avatar wouldn't even be mentioned since you'd fail to get a good rank right away anyway. Frankly the only real flaws I see with the game are that you gain exp too fast, certain items should be more expensive, that there really needed to be a difficulty between hard and lunatic, and the Sorcerer class is too overpowered(Manakete too, but that's more due to exp problems), but too think IS doesn't already recognize these problems after they were smart enough to remove the warp staff from FE12's higher difficulties and looking at the balance changes between FE9 and FE10 is just silly. Frankly, Awakening really set the bar way too high for the next game, since other than tweaking mechanics/adding in more old ones, I really don't know what else IS could add to make the games more fun and innovative.

Because people have valid opinions that defer from each other.

[Czar_Yoshi]

All of the skills shut down a particular strategy, which is what makes it clever.

- Pass: counters simple walling

- Counter: counters over-leveled super-units, who will kill themselves

- Aegis+/Pavise+: counters armies with mono weapon types

- Hawkeye: counters evade-tanking

- Luna+: counters DEF-tanking

- Vantage+: makes it more difficult to weaken/finish units (training is harder, damage taken is higher)

I just want to point out that Pass actually opens up new strategies if you know how to use it: on some chapters (notably 8 and 12), you can form a two-unit-wide choke and then station your flunkies just far enough back so that enemies with Pass will move behind the Choke units to attack them, and then on their next turn be in range of the flunkies and attack them. You can then heal and strike back, and as long as you can 2HKO everything it's possible to feed every Pass unit in the map to one or two units, provided your Choke can hold that long (made easier if you have a bunch of Physic, which is pretty easy with Spotpass). If you manage to wait out all of them, you can then just hold a normal choke and fire over the heads of the blockers. I typically use this strat when trying to pass Lucina Galeforce and want to get her mother that last bit of exp.

Hawkeye also makes it easier (or at least faster) to break weapons to train flunkies. This is particularly useful on Par.1. And Counter, if you're interested in using "cheap" strats to rack up exp, can be on a disarmed enemy on a fort, which you can then hit with Falchion over and over to provide an infinite source of staff exp.

So while these skills do shut down major strategies, they also open up new ones if you look hard enough.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Czar_Yoshi

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

Because people have valid opinions that defer from each other.

yup, we all have different opinions, and that's ok.

i might disagree with someone's opinion, but for the most part i respect it as long as its not in a negative tone.

[Interceptor]

Funny that you say previous FEs are tedious and then defend Tedious+ mode.

Lunatic+ is the ultimate challenge for a Fire Emblem Expert (read: most people never touch it); unskippable nonsense and crappy interfaces are a pain for everyone. Imagine playing L+ with a GBA-era UI. Although I personally don't consider L+ to be tedious, because the time spent is time when you're actively constructing plans and executing moves. AKA, playing a game.

Except being forced to play through Lyn mode is something that is universely criticized and was never considered good. No one is saying it was ever good so the nostalgia arguement fallacy doesn't apply.

It's a thing that makes Blazing Sword a pain in the ass. Even if everyone and their mother agrees that it's bad, the two cannot be separated from each other. Whatever good the game has to offer, is tempered by the fact that you have to wade through the Shit Moat™ to get there.

[RJWalker]

Your argument was that people defend it out of nostalgia but no one actually does that.

[Interceptor]

Your argument was that people defend it out of nostalgia but no one actually does that.

Well, that's certainly your understanding of it.

Just like the amount of gravity observed in the universe can't be explained by known visible matter, reverence for old Fire Emblem titles can't be explained by looking at known gameplay elements. You need to fill the gap with something; astrophysicists have "dark matter", I have "nostalgia".

Edited June 6, 2014 by Interceptor

[RJWalker]

The fact that they were really good for their time is not reason enough? I don't consider Awakening good for its time.

Your complaints of a bad interface among other things are nonsensical. As far back as the GBA games, you can easily manage your items, arrange your units in the order you want, use items, trade items, buy or sell items just as easily as Awakening. The only improvement is unlimited storage space. The battle interface is pretty much the same too. Auto battle isn't new either and has existed since FE2. Only an idiot would have any trouble with the interface, at least as far back as the GBA games.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Ranger Jack Walker

[BANRYU]

Marriage was pretty much always the reason fans used to think FE4 was the best game in the series.

I would just like to say that I'm pretty sure the reason people think FE4 was the best game is because it was revolutionary in almost every way, and the marriage system is only a small part of that. Like 90% of the other things that made Genealogy an interesting and innovative game-- like the huge, dynamic, interesting maps and long chapters, for one-- are noticeably absent in Awakening. The marriage system was only one element that factored into people liking this game. Whether you like Awakening or not (and personally, I do), the fact remains that it was pretty formulaic and didn't really do much to innovate the series. Aside from some interesting and new (if mostly useless) classes, we had the Pair Up system and the Einherjar that's about it. And honestly, those didn't really do much for the game except to make it easier.

yup, we all have different opinions, and that's ok.

i might disagree with someone's opinion, but for the most part i respect it as long as its not in a negative tone.

Also this ^

Edited June 6, 2014 by BANRYU

[Constable Reggie]

Well, that's certainly your understanding of it.

Just like the amount of gravity observed in the universe can't be explained by known visible matter, reverence for old Fire Emblem titles can't be explained by looking at known gameplay elements. You need to fill the gap with something; astrophysicists have "dark matter", I have "nostalgia".

Well for one, the stories from the older games are far, far, far better than anything Awakening has. And while Fe4/5's gameplay are somewhat affected by "Super Nintendo Era Strategy Game Syndrome", their gameplay go much more hand in hand with their stories than Awakening's does.

[Blademaster!]

Because people have valid opinions that defer from each other.

Having a "valid opinion" doesn't all of a sudden mean that something isn't great, let alone make it a strong argument. I can hold the "valid opinion" that Shakespeare is not a great author, but that wouldn't all of a sudden mean that he isn't a great author all things considered. You can say that you don't like Awakening for whatever reason you want, but to not be able to recognize it as a great game is just being blind or intentionally ignorant.

Aside from some interesting and new (if mostly useless) classes, we had the Pair Up system and the Einherjar that's about it.

Those features are more innovative to the core gameplay than pretty much any features the franchise has gotten since FE5. 3rd tiers, an avatar character you can play as, and reclassing are the only newer features since that are even comparable to the new ones in Awakening, excluding reworked mechanics, though it's not like reworked mechanics are absent from Awakening either.

[BANRYU]

Having a "valid opinion" doesn't all of a sudden mean that something isn't great, let alone make it a strong argument. I can hold the "valid opinion" that Shakespeare is not a great author, but that wouldn't all of a sudden mean that he isn't a great author all things considered. You can say that you don't like Awakening for whatever reason you want, but to not be able to recognize it as a great game is just being blind or intentionally ignorant.

Those features are more innovative to the core gameplay than pretty much any features the franchise has gotten since FE5. 3rd tiers, an avatar character you can play as, and reclassing are the only newer features since that are even comparable to the new ones in Awakening, excluding reworked mechanics, though it's not like reworked mechanics are absent from Awakening either.

Yeah, but plenty of other good mechanics ARE absent, like magic triangles and fog-o-war and what have you.

Also strictly speaking, I disagree that Pair-up is innovative (and let's not even touch the Einherjar because there's nothing innovative at all about them, really; they're basically just fanservice)-- and while I'm not gonna claim that many of the games from the GBA era onward are particularly innovative in THEIR own right, they at least improved the mechanics of the game with each respective new title (debatably until some of the DS games). Awakening, by comparison, has largely dumbed-down mechanics in terms of general gameplay. In terms of the Pair-up Mechanic, basically all it does is serve to make the game easier, rather than more tactical. In categories where it IS new and interesting-- the combination of reclassing and Skills-- it tends to become a grindfest if you want to optimize your characters, and once characters are optimized, it becomes more of a skillfest than a legitimate strategy experience, at least for my tastes.

Listen dude, it's completely fine if you like Awakening, I have absolutely no problem with that, but the generally agreed-upon consensus is that it's not as good as other Fire Emblem games. You can find plenty of arguments made by people more eloquent and knowledgeable about it than me, but they're out there, and some of them are pretty objectively accurate and legitimate criticisms of the game. And again, it's totally fine if you disagree, but don't be lordin' your opinion that Awakening is DA BESSSS around like it's a fact, because it's not. It's your opinion.

(And comparing Awakening to something like Shakespeare is absolutely NOT a valid comparison at all; if I were to compare Awakening to a literary figure it'd be more along the lines of someone like Christopher Paolini (the guy who wrote the Eragon series): he's been commercially successful and his work has some fairly interesting characters development, plus SOME creative new elements, but his work so far is largely derivative in both plot and general worldbuilding, it's really nothing you haven't already seen before, and ultimately he's more of a passing fad than an author with any real lasting appeal except to younger audiences.)

Incidentally, 'blind or intentionally ignorant' is exactly what I'D use to describe insistent praise of this game as being beyond previous titles, personally. Anyway I've SAID that I LIKE Awakening, (maybe you missed that part) but it doesn't mean that I can't be aware of its flaws as well.

Edited June 6, 2014 by BANRYU

[RJWalker]

Eragon is basically Star Wars set in Middle Earth.

[Jotari]

Auto battle isn't new either and has existed since FE2.

Wait dos Geanology have any type of command or auto battle system? because it would seriously help getting units across those maps if they moved automatically. I've never noticed anything like that in the options, then again I missed the save feature completely on my first run and thought the game expected you to finish those maps in one sitting.

[Blademaster!]

Also strictly speaking, I disagree that Pair-up is innovative In terms of the Pair-up Mechanic, basically all it does is serve to make the game easier, rather than more tactical.

but the generally agreed-upon consensus is that it's not as good as other Fire Emblem games.

(And comparing Awakening to something like Shakespeare is absolutely NOT a valid comparison at all; if I were to compare Awakening to a literary figure it'd be more along the lines of someone like Christopher Paolini (the guy who wrote the Eragon series): he's been commercially successful and his work has some fairly interesting characters development, plus SOME creative new elements, but his work so far is largely derivative in both plot and general worldbuilding, it's really nothing you haven't already seen before, and ultimately he's more of a passing fad than an author with any real lasting appeal except to younger audiences.)

Anyway I've SAID that I LIKE Awakening, (maybe you missed that part) but it doesn't mean that I can't be aware of its flaws as well.

How is pair-up not innovative when it adds in an entire new layer to play the game with? Yeah it makes the game easier at times, but that doesn't stop it from being innovative as a completely new mechanic or lacking in tactical usage since you can't just always pair up whoever you want and get the best result possible every time while certain pairs work better than others, which is still tactics.

I get that you said you like Awakening. I didn't even intend to come across as "attacking" you somehow or the like in responding to what you said merely put forth a point of discussion on innovation in the FE franchise since I don't see how you think pair-up somehow lacks innovation.

And the general opinion is that it's worse than most fire emblem games? Looking at almost any rating site, the general opinion is that critically and fan speaking the best/second best game in the series, and I'm not even arguing that it's the best game in the franchise(I personally don't think one FE stands above all others since they almost all have something to them that makes them unique and fun), just that it's a great game, and there is no real strong argument you can make against that with what objective data we have available at the moment. And as far as these other people making these "more objective criticisms" and what have you about why Awakening is worse somehow, I've seen them before, and the majority of them don't impress me at all, especially when most of them lack real comparisons to the older games like the people who think Weapon weight was somehow this super awesome feature that didn't cause more harm than good or become irrelevant starting from FE9 onwards or that Awakening lacking rescue like the two games before it is somehow this huge catastrophe when pair-up and the rescue staff does almost anything you'd ever use rescue for anyway, but I digress.

And I used Shakespeare as an easy to understand comparative example. You can replace it with anything that fits the role. I'm an anime/manga fan, and I don't think anime/manga like Madoka or Hunter x Hunter are great anime either, but I'd still be wrong in saying they're not great anime/manga since almost all evidence points to them being well regarded and respected series, just like Awakening, whether I like it or not. And I certainly wouldn't say Awakening is some kind of passing fad as of now since it's still the most discussed game in the franchise for the moment, to the point where haters of the game are annoyed that no one talks about the older games more often from what I've seen.

[RJWalker]

Innovation is an overused buzzword in today's day and age. Innovation for innovation's sake is worse than no innovation at all, especially if said innovative feature is this unbalanced.

[Blademaster!]

Innovation is an overused buzzword in today's day and age. Innovation for innovation's sake is worse than no innovation at all, especially if said innovative feature is this unbalanced.

Innovation for innovations sake is still better than just having the same game rehashed over and over, and pair-up isn't "unbalanced" because of the mechanic itself, it's "unbalanced" because normal and hard mode are too easy and the units who excel the most in lunatic mode aren't as great as they are because of pair-up but because of second seals/the exp formula/veteran(though veteran does require pair-up).

[RJWalker]

Innovation for innovations sake is still better than just having the same game rehashed over and over, and pair-up isn't "unbalanced" because of the mechanic itself, it's "unbalanced" because normal and hard mode are too easy and the units who excel the most in lunatic mode aren't as great as they are because of pair-up but because of second seals/the exp formula/veteran(though veteran does require pair-up).

Yeah, Normal and Hard being too easy goes hand-in-hand with all the advantages Pair Up provides being too good. You can't separate difficulty levels from the mechanics of the damn game. They're tied to each other. Hard Mode without Pair is actually decent. Second Seals do not break the game because you can't make good use of them unless you grind and well, grinding tends to trivialize most games. There are many reasons why Normal and Hard are so easy and Pair Up is one of the big ones.

And innovation for innovation's sake is worse than the same game being rehashed, especially if what was being reused worked. Nevermind that, as far as FE goes, the same game wasn't being rehashed over and over again.

the funniest part is that Awakening is not htat innovative at all and the developers have clearly stated that it was created with the idea of reusing as many mechanics from previous games as possible. That's an idea I can get behind except you have to take care of how these mechanics mix together. In Awakening's case, I don't feel they do mix together very well at all. Recruiting children character reuires you to grind their parents to get supports. Making the children actaully good requires even more grinding for skills. And what is you're reward? Characters that are weaker than the parents you just spent hours grinding but oh, these characters require less grinding to be on par with the parents.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Ranger Jack Walker

[-Cynthia-]

Skippable enemy phases and better inventory management are nice, but many players don't really consider these major factors in quality. I don't think I have a 'nostalgia glasses' issue if I think Radiant Dawn better than Shadow Dragon for instance- the skippable phases would have been nice in RD, but there are a lot of other factors at play.

Edited June 6, 2014 by -Cynthia-

[metalsnowman3]

The thing that I don't like is that people criticize awakening for things that are problems in all the other fire emblem games.

The plot doesn't make sense. Well neither does any of the other ones seeing as all the big bads can just easily kill your guys whenever they feel like it instead of going through all these crazy loopholes and things. FE4 story I thought was going to be much better since people talk about it so fondly but it really is hardly there.

The map designs are bad. Well FE4 maps were cool other than the fact I would have to spend like 6-10 hours playing one map since I didn't know when/where reinforcements were going to come. And for the more casual FE player like me, the maps from FE6-12 weren't all that different from 13. (FE10 imo had the most fun maps)

The characters are all stupid/tropes. Well FE4 had like barely any characterization, the fondness of it is just headcanon because there is barely any dialogue. FE6-12 all the characters are really just bland except for the main characters and they weren't that well rounded either. All the side characters were also tropes that had mini backstories but nothing groundbreaking that awakening didn't have.

Gameplay is unbalanced. Well seeing as they are all beatable with 0% growths via dondon's guides, you can argue all the games are unbalanced because you can beat the game essentially without leveling (other than like weapon/stave levels). When I was revisiting fe7 HHM, Sain was essentially invincible by like chapter 20 and I was trying to keep the levels somewhat balanced between all my units. I just don't see Awakening's balance issues that much different than the others. Playing through FE12 wasn't that hard with invincible knight avatar and Caeda and peg sisters and that was my first run, I went out of my way to make that game harder and I didn't even finish it because I got bored just stomping through the game.

[Refa]

In Awakening's case, I don't feel they do mix together very well at all. Recruiting children character reuires you to grind their parents to get supports. Making the children actaully good requires even more grinding for skills. And what is you're reward? Characters that are weaker than the parents you just spent hours grinding but oh, these characters require less grinding to be on par with the parents.

You don't need to grind to use the children characters, unless you're using an overly huge amount of characters in which case that's your problem right there.

EDIT I will agree that the implementation of the mechanic was off though. They never felt necessary or vital to the experience in any way.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Refa

[BrightBow]

Skippable enemy phases and inventory management are nice, but many players don't really consider these major factors in quality I think.

If you skip enemy phase, you loose that time anyway because you have to catch up with the battle progress and need to double-check everyone's position, health and whatnot.

Edited June 6, 2014 by BrightBow

[Blademaster!]

Yeah, Normal and Hard being too easy goes hand-in-hand with all the advantages Pair Up provides being too good. You can't separate difficulty levels from the mechanics of the damn game. They're tied to each other. Hard Mode without Pair is actually decent. Second Seals do not break the game because you can't make good use of them unless you grind and well, grinding tends to trivialize most games. There are many reasons why Normal and Hard are so easy and Pair Up is one of the big ones.

And innovation for innovation's sake is worse than the same game being rehashed, especially if what was being reused worked. Nevermind that, as far as FE goes, the same game wasn't being rehashed over and over again.

Pair-up makes them easier, but it doesn't change the fact that they still aren't that challenging. And you can't make good use of second seals without grinding? Are you kidding?

The idea that rehashing is better than trying to be innovative is exactly why games like Pokemon, Mario, EA sports games, COD, etc. get so much shit by the video game community(or at least the primary complaint the games receive) and why the video game industry has been so stagnant for so long. It is a tremendous problem, especially in the case of COD due to how much influence it has had on the industry. Regardless wanting to stay at the status quo is natural, not all change ends up with a positive result, and this argument is better left else where. And FE does rehash some of their games. Just look at the GBA and DS games >_>

[RJWalker]

^Except Pokemon continues to be awesome. And yes, Second Seals don't break the game unless you grind.

The thing that I don't like is that people criticize awakening for things that are problems in all the other fire emblem games.

The plot doesn't make sense. Well neither does any of the other ones seeing as all the big bads can just easily kill your guys whenever they feel like it instead of going through all these crazy loopholes and things. FE4 story I thought was going to be much better since people talk about it so fondly but it really is hardly there.

The map designs are bad. Well FE4 maps were cool other than the fact I would have to spend like 6-10 hours playing one map since I didn't know when/where reinforcements were going to come. And for the more casual FE player like me, the maps from FE6-12 weren't all that different from 13. (FE10 imo had the most fun maps)

The characters are all stupid/tropes. Well FE4 had like barely any characterization, the fondness of it is just headcanon because there is barely any dialogue. FE6-12 all the characters are really just bland except for the main characters and they weren't that well rounded either. All the side characters were also tropes that had mini backstories but nothing groundbreaking that awakening didn't have.

Gameplay is unbalanced. Well seeing as they are all beatable with 0% growths via dondon's guides, you can argue all the games are unbalanced because you can beat the game essentially without leveling (other than like weapon/stave levels). When I was revisiting fe7 HHM, Sain was essentially invincible by like chapter 20 and I was trying to keep the levels somewhat balanced between all my units. I just don't see Awakening's balance issues that much different than the others. Playing through FE12 wasn't that hard with invincible knight avatar and Caeda and peg sisters and that was my first run, I went out of my way to make that game harder and I didn't even finish it because I got bored just stomping through the game.

Characterization is implied rather thatn stated out right. Now Awakening has a script that is several times longer than some of the other games but it still can't manage better characters or plot and is arguably worse? How does that work? The excuse that 'Oh none of the other games had great characters or plot" is bullshit.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Ranger Jack Walker

[metalsnowman3]

You can easily argue that the characterization is way worse in the old game. At least all the characters in awakening have a background and personality. So what was the implied amazing characterization of like Briggid, Sain, Zealot, or random cavalier/mercenary number 8 billion who sits on the bench in all the other games.

What is the great plot people talk about for fire emblem 4, 6-12? (the ones I played) I liked them all but none are great and pretty in line with most other rpgs.

EDIT: I'll exclude 10 because that actually dealt directly with the impact of war and politics on normal people in a relatively sophisticated (for video games) way.

Edited June 6, 2014 by metalsnowman3

[Constable Reggie]

Pair-up makes them easier, but it doesn't change the fact that they still aren't that challenging. And you can't make good use of second seals without grinding? Are you kidding?

The idea that rehashing is better than trying to be innovative is exactly why games like Pokemon, Mario, EA sports games, COD, etc. get so much shit by the video game community(or at least the primary complaint the games receive) and why the video game industry has been so stagnant for so long. It is a tremendous problem, especially in the case of COD due to how much influence it has had on the industry. Regardless wanting to stay at the status quo is natural, not all change ends up with a positive result, and this argument is better left else where. And FE does rehash some of their games. Just look at the GBA and DS games >_>

Huh? What are you talking about? The Call of Duty series (at least until Ghosts) is both a commercial and critical success, with Modern Warfare 3, usually considered to be the one that played it the safest, has a whopping 88 on Metacritic. Not to mention that every Cod game has sold millions, so your argument fails because Metacritic said so.

tldr there's a double standard here for Awakening

Edited June 6, 2014 by Constable Reggie