I still don't get the praise of this game...

[RJWalker]

Well, you said "single word", but you didn't specify which one. Could have been anything.

I consider the "have some guts" or "man up" argument to be fundamentally silly. What incentive do they have to kill off a playable character, for the sake of fake edginess art? Players generally don't appreciate that sort of thing, and it would be especially the case in a series like Fire Emblem where you're actually building characters as part of the gameplay.

Which is why I already said that I don't think every game should be like FE4. It worked for FE4 but it won't always. It's not fake edginess if it is a integral part of the themes of the game.

You say that Awakening "tries to be tragic like FE4"; I'd say that they "succeeded in not repeating shitty things from FE4".

Awakening succeeded in being shitty all by itself.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Not "a video game". Fire Emblem: Awakening. The desired quality of something's story is dependent on what you'te talking about. Tetris? Irrelevant. Visual novel? Better be amazing. Fire Emblem? Mostly about the gameplay, so just enough to tie stuff together and move things along.

You know, every single person I've talked to who knows what FE is but hasn't played it knows it by one of three traits: Marth is in SSB, Permadeath, and story. Yep, you can trash the stories of any game in the series as much as you like, but it's not really debatable that FE is pretty high on the scale of stories for Nintendo games. Look at the rest of the cast from SSB, you've got nations with armies and spies fighting villains with motivations and actual plot twists, compared to... Well, not much. Plumbers saving their girlfriends from monsters and children beating up crime syndicates.

But you seem to be lumping FE together with Tetris in terms of your story expectations, and that's just silly.

I doubt anyone can name a single flaw or a mistake of the Avatar's.

Aside from the whole Cht.14 thing, Avatar decides to derp and follow Chrom to the Dragon's Table despite knowing that a) Validar wants them there, and b) he has mind control. It's never called out in-game as a bad thing, but it's still a bad idea.

As for Cht.14 itself, the issue isn't that Avatar roasts the Valmese fleet- it's a war, people are going to die. The issue is that they make jokes about it and that the game treats it as a grand success, completely disregarding the fact that anyone who isn't super irredeemably evil could see what just happened as a bad thing and ignoring the opportunity for the lords to reflect on the reality of war (something that most FEs do do).

I also have a slight beef with that chapter in that Flavia and Basilio practically put that plan in Avatar's mouth, and then praise him/her as if they had nothing to do with it after the battle. It's like they've decided Avatar isn't enough of a Mary Sue already and are trying to take him/her up a level into a full-blown mascot.

Anyway, I has a conundrum here: I think Awakening is incredibly unbalanced, the story holds no water, has too much fanservice, and basically reeks, but I also love it. Thus, I have no idea which side to root for in this "debate". SoC, may I join your side?

[The Geek]

Awakening's story isn't much to look at, but the game in and of itself is excellent. Don't think too hard about it and enjoy the ride.

[Interceptor]

You know, every single person I've talked to who knows what FE is but hasn't played it knows it by one of three traits: Marth is in SSB, Permadeath, and story. Yep, you can trash the stories of any game in the series as much as you like, but it's not really debatable that FE is pretty high on the scale of stories for Nintendo games. Look at the rest of the cast from SSB, you've got nations with armies and spies fighting villains with motivations and actual plot twists, compared to... Well, not much. Plumbers saving their girlfriends from monsters and children beating up crime syndicates.

But you seem to be lumping FE together with Tetris in terms of your story expectations, and that's just silly.

No, that was just an example of the two extremes, at least when it comes to things that can be considered "games". On one end, Tetris has no expectations of a story. On the other, a VN succeeds mostly on the strengths of its narrative. Fire Emblem (and all SPRGs) tends to fit somewhere in-between those two extremes.

Fire Emblem's stories (as a series) are not "good" by the standards of actual quality literature, but they are good for video games. Barring that, they are at least entertaining to a lot of people, which is the basic purpose of having a story as part of a game in the first place. But even if Awakening's story is "shit", then so is the rest of the series; in spite of bleatings to the contrary, the past titles are also full of tired tropes, bad writing, and cardboard characters.

My only expectation for a Fire Emblem story is that it moves things along and glues the chapters together. I generally enjoy whatever silliness goes on the first time, but don't re-watch the story on subsequent runs except for a particular key moment here or there. I'd be surprised if that was uncommon.

Anyway, I has a conundrum here: I think Awakening is incredibly unbalanced, the story holds no water, has too much fanservice, and basically reeks, but I also love it. Thus, I have no idea which side to root for in this "debate". SoC, may I join your side?

Why do you even have to root for a "side" in the first place? FFS, just have an opinion of your own and leave it at that. It's not like "person who loves Awakening but is disappointed in XYZ" doesn't already describe tens of thousands of people, if you care about being in a herd.

[Skynstein]

Can't believe people are still complaining that Robin created a plan to blow up the Valmese fleet. You guys do realize they're at war, right? In war, people kill enemies. Only the leftovers are held captive.

So no, I don't have a problem with Robin doing that to win that specific battle, and I actually thought it was a neat idea. Tyrion Lannister devised a similar plan to win the battle of Blackwater Bay in Game of Thrones. He stuffed an empty ship full of combustible wildfire and had an archer shoot a flaming arrow at it, blowing it up and elimintating most of Stannis Baratheon's fleet. But Game of Thrones is apparently allowed to do that because it's based on a widely praised book series.

Awakening's story isn't perfect, but this isn't one of its imperfections.

Edited June 10, 2014 by Bird Jesus

[Czar_Yoshi]

Why do you even have to root for a "side" in the first place? FFS, just have an opinion of your own and leave it at that. It's not like "person who loves Awakening but is disappointed in XYZ" doesn't already describe tens of thousands of people, if you care about being in a herd.

Because by this point there's no way I'm going to get anything meaningful out of this thread except entertainment. Nothing I post here will change anyone else's mind, nothing anyone else posts here will change my mind, so I may as well have my fun while I'm reading. Hopefully that doesn't offend anyone. If it does, consider taking this less seriously.

Can't believe people are still complaining that Robin created a plan to blow up the Valmese fleet. You guys do realize they're at war, right? In war, people kill enemies. Only the leftovers are held captive.

Killing soldiers isn't a problem, making bad jokes about it instead of thinking about what just happened (and not being called out on it by the game) is.

Edited June 10, 2014 by Czar_Yoshi

[Interceptor]

But Game of Thrones is apparently allowed to do that because it's based on a widely praised book series.

Spoiler alert. Actually, even Game of Thrones got scooped on this one: Archimedes did it first.

Because by this point there's no way I'm going to get anything meaningful out of this thread except entertainment. Nothing I post here will change anyone else's mind, nothing anyone else posts here will change my mind, so I may as well have my fun while I'm reading. Hopefully that doesn't offend anyone. If it does, consider taking this less seriously.

Oh, well if you are just trolling, never mind. Carry on.

[Skynstein]

Killing soldiers isn't a problem, making bad jokes about it instead of thinking about what just happened (and not being called out on it by the game) is.

Where do they make jokes about it? Not at the end of Chapter 14. They're commemorating a victory like every army would do.

Comparing to my GoT example, Tywin Lannister shows up in King's Landing at the end of the episode to deliver the final blow and reunites with his family to commemorate Stannis' fall. In no way do they "reflect on what had happened". Instead, they celebrate, because they survived the battle.

War is a kill or be killed situation. If you don't kill the enemy, he'll kill you. I don't think there's any reason for me to pity the Valmese, since I'm experiencing the story from Chrom's POV. Does Chrom need to "reflect on his actions" after every single mission? (excluding Risen since Risen are already dead anyways) He kills enemy soldiers and spares the civilians. That's heroism enough for me.

Spoiler alert. Actually, even Game of Thrones got scooped on this one: Archimedes did it first.

Oh, well if you are just trolling, never mind. Carry on.

True, that. GoT's wildfire is basically Archimedes' Greek fire.

Edited June 10, 2014 by Bird Jesus

[arvilino]

Killing soldiers isn't a problem, making bad jokes about it instead of thinking about what just happened (and not being called out on it by the game) is.

As I said in a previous post there's absolutely no reason or person in-game who's going to call it out, essentially every world leader are either in support of the plan or the opposing side.

They were always going to entirely decimate the Valmese fleet(to prevent invasion) so a plot line about being emo about it because of their method would just look hypocritical considering killing is something they've been doing in the previous war in the game.

Edited June 11, 2014 by arvilino

[Jotari]

Spoiler alert. Actually, even Game of Thrones got scooped on this one: Archimedes did it first.

Oh, well if you are just trolling, never mind. Carry on.

What is that spoiler alert for? History?

[Interceptor]

What is that spoiler alert for? History?

Spoiler was the bit about GoT, which I cut out of the quoted response. Listen, I don't even like telling people what happened to Captain Ahab.

[Jotari]

Spoiler was the bit about GoT, which I cut out of the quoted response. Listen, I don't even like telling people what happened to Captain Ahab.

I was going to thank you for having a spoiler warning about history since I'm not up to date with it yet.

[Loki Laufeyson]

Can't believe people are still complaining that Robin created a plan to blow up the Valmese fleet. You guys do realize they're at war, right? In war, people kill enemies. Only the leftovers are held captive.

So no, I don't have a problem with Robin doing that to win that specific battle, and I actually thought it was a neat idea. Tyrion Lannister devised a similar plan to win the battle of Blackwater Bay in Game of Thrones. He stuffed an empty ship full of combustible wildfire and had an archer shoot a flaming arrow at it, blowing it up and elimintating most of Stannis Baratheon's fleet. But Game of Thrones is apparently allowed to do that because it's based on a widely praised book series.

Awakening's story isn't perfect, but this isn't one of its imperfections.

*record scratch*

Let me illuminate that plot point for you.

[spoiler=Theres some GoT Spoilers in here. No big deal though.]

In the GoT/ASOIAF example, we get both sides of the story here. Davos is the guy who witnesses that wildfire attack first hand. Tyrion is the guy ordering it. Davos sees it as an extremely brutal tactic and Stannis' guys end up all burned and shit. The losses are palpable. On the other side of the coin here, Tyrion's tactic is seen as brilliant, but also still brutal. This tactic is also deliberately undermined by Tywin Lannster who devised a plan with the Tyrells to conduct an El Cid Ploy by dressing up Garlan Tyrell (or in the show, it was Loras) as Renly Baratheon, therefore spooking the hell out of the remainder of Stannis' forces. Tyrion also gains very little in the way of credit for much of anything after the fact. (and almost gets murdered deliberately.)

The difference here is a bit astounding considering that everyone is praising Avatar for the attack despite how horrible it is. We also dont see the other side of the conflict. It works in GoT/ASOIAF because of perspective and the writing makes it very believable.

Comparing to my GoT example, Tywin Lannister shows up in King's Landing at the end of the episode to deliver the final blow and reunites with his family to commemorate Stannis' fall. In no way do they "reflect on what had happened". Instead, they celebrate, because they survived the battle.

B: Thats actually rubbish. Tyrion gets seriously injured and his station revoked. Davos winds up stranded in the middle of Blackwater and nearly dies. In the show, Cersei nearly murdered Tommen (as a means of "they will not take us alive!" ploy). Tywin comes in and takes all the credit.

If Avatar is anyone in this scenario, he isnt Tyrion. Hes Tywin, taking all the credit for something a bunch of other people planned out. Of course, Awakening's writing isnt solid enough to convey this.

[Jotari]

Tyrion doesn't lose his station or get injured because of his tactic. He loses his station because it was only temporary while Tywin was away anyway and we never learn why there was an attempt on his life but Tyrion himself is convinced is because his sister hates him. Both of these things have absolutely nothing to do with Tyrion's defense strategy and likely would have happened anyway if they found some other way to survive the battle.

[Loki Laufeyson]

My point is that due to how the circumstances played out, GoT's wildfire thing was more believable and was certainly viewed as not exactly a wonderful thing in-universe. Tyrion was undone after the battle, not have praise heaped upon him for the act. He was swept under a rug so there really is no viable comparison between him and Avatar.

Ask Stannis, Davos, and the Hound about how awesome the Blackwater wildfire tactic was. Go ahead. The Hound, oddly enough was on Team King's Landing. |:

[Baldrick]

Re: chapter 14 in Awakening, compare it to chapter 3-12 in Radiant Dawn, in which Micaiah enacts a similar tactic. Sothe and Tauroneo question it, but don't object because they know the situation and what is at stake. Ike and Sanaki condemn it, and Soren backhandedly compliments Micaiah. In 3-F there is some (not nearly enough imo) battle dialogue about it. This act having (again not nearly enough since it's never mentioned even in passing in part 4, but at least it's something) implications and not being viewed as a positive thing even by those on the same side gives the plot more depth.

[RJWalker]

I'm not saying every chapter needs to end with the sad music and the playable characters getting all sad every single time but a little humility in the face of so much death and destruction is a good thing. The characters with their critical quotes sound like maniacs, what with Severa complaining "That was miiiiine!" among many, many other quotes. FE always took the consequences of war a lot more seriously than most. Now I'm not saying they can't go over the top but if you're going to do that, go all the way. The story itself doesn't take war and death lightly, much like every other game in th series but the characters fluctuate between being serious (sometimes, I guess) in their supports to what seems to be enjoyment when actually in battle. Just stay consistent. That's all I'm asking.

[The Geek]

The problem that most people have with Awakening's story is that they expected to be able to take it seriously. Even in cases where the stories of the other games had some holes, you could still take them seriously. You cannot take Awakening's story seriously.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

The problem that most people have with Awakening's story is that they expected to be able to take it seriously. Even in cases where the stories of the other games had some holes, you could still take them seriously. You cannot take Awakening's story seriously.

if anyone wants to know, this is how i feel about its story.

i mean, you can't tell me that the writers intended for this game's story to be taken lightly with a grain of salt but to me they fell flat when they didn't pace itself well or explain some of the stuff.

[Czar_Yoshi]

If Avatar is anyone in this scenario, he isnt Tyrion. Hes Tywin, taking all the credit for something a bunch of other people planned out. Of course, Awakening's writing isnt solid enough to convey this.

If I might add to this, Awakening really did give me a strong impression that Flavia and Basilio did 90% of the work on that plan and gave Avatar all the credit just so they'd have a reason to praise him/her. The other 10% being the battle, and I'm still not entirely sure why that had to happen.

[AMCC4728]

Ender's game spoilers ahead.

I haven't watched/read GoT but the scene in chapter fourteen reminds me of the final battle in ender's game(book haven't seen the movie). Ender grows up in a society where "buggers" are a hated species. Rightfully so since they pushed humans to the brink of extinction. In the final battles Ender is led to believe that what he is doing are simulations, training for the final battles. Instead he is unknowingly attacking the final remnants of the buggers. When Ender wins, he looks at the relief of the generals in the room and realize what he has done. Ender then proceeds to pass out from the trauma of the realization that he killed an entire species. IMO Ender's struggle to come to terms with what he has done is very genuine and while the avatar's actions don't match killing an entire species, I would have loved if awakening took inspiration from those scenes. It just would have made avatar a more complete characters. I doubt the majority of fans would condone the actions after the magnitude of what is done is explained to them through avatar's regret. I think most would appreciate the honesty of the plot in condemning those actions and making avatar feel remorse.

[arvilino]

If I might add to this, Awakening really did give me a strong impression that Flavia and Basilio did 90% of the work on that plan and gave Avatar all the credit just so they'd have a reason to praise him/her. The other 10% being the battle, and I'm still not entirely sure why that had to happen.

If you want to do something(burn ships) but don't know how, then give the task to someone else who comes up with a suitable way to do it you didn't do 90% of the work.

[Kokone Kirino]

I liked Awakening, perhaps because I don't care much about the story, and because I liked its support convos (for the most part). The conversations do hold a certain amount of orginality, there are so many it is almost impossible to fill every single one with tired tropes and cliches. The characters were amusing, and some of them weren't exactly cardboards as it has been claimed here, a bunch of them do have a decent amount of depth for game characters. Others were terrible little shits, but oh well. I had fun with it, and that's enough.
Anyways, what I wanted to ask, what exactly are those "plot holes" in FE:A? The term plot holes gets used way too often nowadays, it is used to bash on every single thing, and it seems most people don't even know what a plot hole is. A plot hole is a contradiction in the plot, it would be a plot hole if a normal SoL-Anime would feature supernatural powers out of the blue. Awakening had its plot devices and conveniences, perhaps even plot armor, but I can't think of any real plot hole. Care to elaborate, anyone? Maybe I just didn't pay attention. (Canon plot holes, not the ones cause by support convos and the marriage system)

Edited June 12, 2014 by domme008

[-Cynthia-]

My point is that due to how the circumstances played out, GoT's wildfire thing was more believable and was certainly viewed as not exactly a wonderful thing in-universe. Tyrion was undone after the battle, not have praise heaped upon him for the act. He was swept under a rug so there really is no viable comparison between him and Avatar.

Ask Stannis, Davos, and the Hound about how awesome the Blackwater wildfire tactic was. Go ahead. The Hound, oddly enough was on Team King's Landing. |:

Also, it's a genre/general tone thing. Terrible things happen in Westeros and Essos and a lot of characters don't bat an eye, whereas Ylisse is more of a "light" universe where the protagonists are more firmly 'good' than grey for the most part.

Edited June 12, 2014 by -Cynthia-

[shadowofchaos]

You cannot take Awakening's story seriously.

No, you still can.

There's a lot of people that do.

They just don't happen to be FE veterans.

Nor care about the plot holes.

Edited June 12, 2014 by shadowofchaos