The Easy and Efficient AAAA Project: The Test Run (Genealogy)

[FionordeQuester]

You sit around farming kills for a really long time so that units that don't even have issues clearing the arena clear it? The ones that kind of have some issues like Alec and Noish were still your lowest levelled units by far, so I just think you sat around and wasted turns for nothing getting crit on the slim sword. Like the only unit it made a difference on is Dew, and he still can't clear the chapter 3 arena with the slim sword (very easily anyway) and he's honestly not very hard to level.

Well...it takes around 1 hour, maybe 2 hours at most to get the Slim Sword 100 Kills, so it isn't SO long...so I figure that whatever time it takes to power it up would be more than made up for by less time spent resetting, whether it be Sigurd trying to beat up dudes, or time spent in the Arena. And while Alec, Noish, Dew, and Ardan were the only ones who really NEEDED it persay...they definitely weren't the only ones who appreciated the boost.

For example, Beowulf, Patty, and Fury rather liked the boost, as did other guys like Delmud, Ethlin, and Lachesis, who would've taken some tedious RNG rigging otherwise. As for Dew, yes, I realize you can level him off of the Cross Knights, but, that's a rather risky method, don't you think? I guess maybe grinding him on the Pirates would have worked, but, even then, that would either be really tedious (if they couldn't hit him), or also kind of risky (if they could hit him). With the Slim Sword though, not only is that less risky, but he could also pass around his hard-earned Arena Gold to anyone who needed it (and people often did).

So basically, it's so strong, and is acquired so early, that I believe it makes up for the time spent to get it.

Edited September 22, 2014 by FionordeQuester

[General Horace]

Well...it takes around 1 hour, maybe 2 hours at most to get the Slim Sword 100 Kills, so it isn't SO long...so I figure that whatever time it takes to power it up would be more than made up for by less time spent resetting, whether it be Sigurd trying to beat up dudes, or time spent in the Arena. And while Alec, Noish, Dew, and Ardan were the only ones who really NEEDED it persay...they definitely weren't the only ones who appreciated the boost.

For example, Beowulf, Patty, and Fury rather liked the boost, as did other guys like Delmud, Ethlin, and Lachesis, who would've taken some tedious RNG rigging otherwise. As for Dew, yes, I realize you can level him off of the Cross Knights, but, that's a rather risky method, don't you think? I guess maybe grinding him on the Pirates would have worked, but, even then, that would either be really tedious (if they couldn't hit him), or also kind of risky (if they could hit him). With the Slim Sword though, not only is that less risky, but he could also pass around his hard-earned Arena Gold to anyone who needed it (and people often did).

So basically, it's so strong, and is acquired so early, that I believe it makes up for the time spent to get it.

Alec and Noish didn't even benefit from it, they finished at level 25, which is pretty low anyway. I never really understood why it was hard getting them to clear arena's anyway, (Alec I can see losing to like the hero lance guy in chapter 3, but if Noish is promoted you just need to keep entering with the hero sword until he crits, even at 1 HP)

Fury can take the hero lance, its better for her to have it once Fin leaves anyway, and Fin doesn't do a whole lot in gen 1, so she can just take it at the start of Chapter 3.

Beowulf I can see some case for, but again, the hero sword exists.

Patty has the sleep sword, and there's a ridiculous amount of exp in gen 2, she doesn't need it either.

Delmud certainly doesn't need it, his strength is ridiculous and he has A swords and inheritance, I know he never came remotely close to losing an arena battle on my file. Lachesis and Ethlin are staff users, they could probably cap level without entering the arena.

The cross knights had 9 hit on Dew, and Aideen was in range to physic him, if he died, it was because he got hit by 3 9%'s on the same enemy phase. The cross knights also have more gold than generic enemies (I think it's 3000) so he makes a ton of cash to give to whoever at that point anyway.

And again, this question:

I just wanna ask this, what did the slim sword allow you to do (or do better) with regards to AAAA ranking that I wasn't able to do on my run (or any other run)?

[FionordeQuester]

Alec and Noish didn't even benefit from it, they finished at level 25, which is pretty low anyway. I never really understood why it was hard getting them to clear arena's anyway, (Alec I can see losing to like the hero lance guy in chapter 3, but if Noish is promoted you just need to keep entering with the hero sword until he crits, even at 1 HP)

Alec and Noish also have some issues with the Mercenary, the Wind Mage, and the General on Chapter 1, as well as the Forrest Knight in Chapter 2. As for Noish being promoted by Chapter 3...that seems like an unlikely prospect unless you grind him outside of the Arena, which I did not do.

Also, I believe I made a mistake in focusing on Midir. So from now on, there's going to be a bigger focus on Alec getting strong, meaning that Alec would be the one sniping those Chapter 4 Mages rather than Midir, like I did.

Fury can take the hero lance, its better for her to have it once Fin leaves anyway, and Fin doesn't do a whole lot in gen 1, so she can just take it at the start of Chapter 3.

Hmm...I do kind of see your point on that. I meant for Fin to inherit the Hero Lance, but, that kind of ended up not working out. So, who knows? Maybe Fury will be rocking that Hero Lance next time.

I can see some case for, but again, the hero sword exists.

That may be, but I figure it's better to rack kills on it with Sigurd, not only so that Celice can do all the ridiculous things he can do with it (like one-shotting Ishtar), but also so that not-so-good Gen 2 units like Hannibal and Patty can clear out the Arena much easier than they would otherwise be able to.

Patty has the sleep sword, and there's a ridiculous amount of exp in gen 2, she doesn't need it either.

The Sleep Sword is ridiculously inaccurate, heavy, and doesn't inflict Sleep all that often though. Plus, Patty isn't always fast enough to take advantage of it. I mean, it worked for Leen, who had Ambush, but even then, it took Leen something like three to four times longer than other units to clear the Arena with it (though granted, part of that was due to Leen just being weak in general).

Delmud certainly doesn't need it, his strength is ridiculous and he has A swords and inheritance, I know he never came remotely close to losing an arena battle on my file. Lachesis and Ethlin are staff users, they could probably cap level without entering the arena.

Ethlin and Lachesis also need money though. I mean, in Lachesis's case, that's not too big of an issue for her, but for Ethlin? That Return Staff + Elite Ring money's gotta come from SOMEWHERE, right? Besides, I figure that the less Staff spamming I had to do with her, the better...

And while I do realize that Lachesis and Ethlin can get 35 Exp. per pop with each Return casting...that just seemed really slow to me.

The cross knights had 9 hit on Dew, and Aideen was in range to physic him, if he died, it was because he got hit by 3 9%'s on the same enemy phase. The cross knights also have more gold than generic enemies (I think it's 3000) so he makes a ton of cash to give to whoever at that point anyway.

Hmm...9 Hit huh? Funny thing is, I don't remember seeing those kinds of numbers on him (I remember it was more like...20-30 Hit?). Does this strategy assume Charisma and Leadership bonuses? Either way, you do bring up an interesting proposition...hmm...

I just wanna ask this, what did the slim sword allow you to do (or do better) with regards to AAAA ranking that I wasn't able to do on my run (or any other run)?

I believe that it allows you to get through the Arena with most units faster, more painlessly, and without wasting time RNG rigging. In addition, it also makes things a bit easier on Sigurd in Chapter 2, but that's more of a bonus than anything. I'd at least give it a shot if I were you, see if my theory holds any water

Edited September 22, 2014 by FionordeQuester

[General Horace]

Alec and Noish also have some issues with the Mercenary, the Wind Mage, and the General on Chapter 1, as well as the Forrest Knight in Chapter 2. As for Noish being promoted by Chapter 3...that seems like an unlikely prospect unless you grind him outside of the Arena, which I did not do.

Also, I believe I made a mistake in focusing on Midir. So from now on, there's going to be a bigger focus on Alec getting strong, meaning that Alec would be the one sniping those Chapter 4 Mages rather than Midir, like I did.

Hmm...I do kind of see your point on that. I meant for Fin to inherit the Hero Lance, but, that kind of ended up not working out. So, who knows? Maybe Fury will be rocking that Hero Lance next time.

That may be, but I figure it's better to rack kills on it with Sigurd, not only so that Celice can do all the ridiculous things he can do with it (like one-shotting Ishtar), but also so that not-so-good Gen 2 units like Hannibal and Patty can clear out the Arena much easier than they would otherwise be able to.

The Sleep Sword is ridiculously inaccurate, heavy, and doesn't inflict Sleep all that often though. Plus, Patty isn't always fast enough to take advantage of it. I mean, it worked for Leen, who had Ambush, but even then, it took Leen something like three to four times longer than other units to clear the Arena with it (though granted, part of that was due to Leen just being weak in general).

Ethlin and Lachesis also need money though. I mean, in Lachesis's case, that's not too big of an issue for her, but for Ethlin? That Return Staff + Elite Ring money's gotta come from SOMEWHERE, right? Besides, I figure that the less Staff spamming I had to do with her, the better...

And while I do realize that Lachesis and Ethlin can get 35 Exp. per pop with each Return casting...that just seemed really slow to me.

Hmm...9 Hit huh? Funny thing is, I don't remember seeing those kinds of numbers on him (I remember it was more like...20-30 Hit?). Does this strategy assume Charisma and Leadership bonuses? Either way, you do bring up an interesting proposition...hmm...

I believe that it allows you to get through the Arena with most units faster, more painlessly, and without wasting time RNG rigging. In addition, it also makes things a bit easier on Sigurd in Chapter 2, but that's more of a bonus than anything. I'd at least give it a shot if I were you, see if my theory holds any water

If Alec gets the speed ring in the prologue he doubles the merc, and may (depending on speed procs) outspeed the Windmage. Noish can just keep fighting the windmage until he crits/the windmage misses once, he has pretty bad hit (the mage that is)

Arena's don't have to be done at the start of the chapter, Noish can easily promote midway through chapter 3 and clear the arena. He definately should take some outside exp, since he is a unit that needs it to stay relevant.

And yeah, Midir has no issues with offence because of Jamka's Killer Bow (which Midir should just take imo, he's really good with it, and its an instawin button in the arena). Alec definately has more issues than Midir in the getting levels department, I agree.

Does Celice really need the hero sword? He's promoted in chapter 7 anyway, and he just ORKO's any enemy with any weapon at that point. Unless I'm going for low turns, I never have Sigurd pass it down, I usually give it to an Ayra kid or Delmud.

You can get kills on it just as easily with other units, I had Holyn take it and kill all the Orgahil Pirates with it in chapter 3 (while he had the elite ring) while Sigurd was still hanging out back at Madino, and then I gave it to Beowulf who could get a kill or more per turn with it because it's insanely powerful in gen 1. Sigurd's probably close to capped anyway, and I had a crit Hero sword going into chapter 7, so Hannibal/Patty/whoever needed it could have it for the arena.

The sleep sword only has 10 less hit than the generic swords (iron/steel/silver) and the same hit as the magic swords. Patty's skill is usually horrible though. I give her a speed ring so she always goes first in the arena, because her speed really isn't very good. It pretty much guarentees an arena clear unless there's a swordmaster or something, in which case she makes it pretty far regardless.

Leen still has no issues because of prayer.

Ethlin has little money issues, she has the bank of Cuan and can promote in chapter 2 which pretty much guarentees she can clear the arena.

I also give her Aideen's Relive staff so she gains a lot more exp during the chapter.

Dew has insane speed/luck and doesn't face WTD because of magic swords, and yeah that did include Charisma but not Leadership bonus.

He was level 11/12 or something before he did this in the first place though, so that might have inflated his durabilty a bit.

I didn't rig anything for the arena (unless you count having sylvia enter the arena with a HP total that would knock her directly into prayer range or something) or continuously entering with Patty until sleep happened on the first hit at 1 HP, and the arena clears were very comparable, and I had 1400 more exp than you did in gen 1, so again, I just don't see it as nescessary? Maybe if you had 1400 more exp than I did I'd deem it to be worth it, but it's the opposite.

An outside opinion on the matter would be cool too.

[FionordeQuester]

Well then, if you want a Chapter 10 write up, then it's a write up you shall get.

Chronos: 4 Turns

Didn't bring Leaf out for Rescue Staff shenanigans, as his Resistance was too low. Other than that, pretty standard I believe!

Rados: 11 Turns

I zapped Skasaha and Lakche up to rescue some citizens. I believe now is the time I started Staff Spamming with everyone, although I WAY overdid it with some people however, because as I later found out, Level 26 w/42 Experience Points is the cutoff point for whether or not the Epilogue Arena + Elite Ring will get you to Level 30 (if I did my calculations right). Also, I warped Leaf so he could use the Rescue Staff on Sigurd, and Arthur so he could get the Magic Ring.

Miletos: 15 Turns

And this...this is where not having Papilion's Leg Ring hit me the hardest. See this situation here?

Now, just how in the world can I ensure that I can even attack Ishtar without her activating Continue and ORKOing Celice? If I had had the Live Ring (or for that matter, have had the foresight to have Leaf wield the Libro Staff), I probably could have just waited until Celice was at full HP...but I could not. And that had me stumped for a bit...until I thought of this.

See that Hit? That's the same amount of hit Celice had on Ishtar! So by running through the Arena until Leen hit her opponent, I could determine when Celice would be able to hit Isthar...

And show her what-for! So that was neat, but...other than that, nothing to report.

Chalphy: 26 Turns (could've been 23...but I spent time rescuing some citizens)

This here was a bit of a pain to try and figure out how to run efficiently, but eventually I figured out a strategy. First, set up Celice like so...

Put him in this EXACT place (not the square above, otherwise a bow archer rushes into melee range and blocks you)...

Got Sety set up with a Libro Staff like so...

Had him take care of a particular stubborn enemy...

And after that, I sent Delmud, Nanna, Faval, and Arthur, and had Fury fly up for Charisma support, Citizen grinding for Arthur and Faval (levels were a little low), and just general help in clearing out Alvis and his squad (I have to say...Alvis was tougher than I remembered. Was actually pleasantly surprised at how matched up he is even with a maxed out Celice).

Also, neat trick here...

You have Celice stand here, and Alvis's servant will move up to YOU and heal up all your health, so that's a small time saver there. Not that it mattered, since I had to spend three extra turns pumping Civilians into Faval and Arthur, but whatever. And in case your wondering...

It was Sety who did the majority of the damage to Alvis while Celice was out getting the Tyrfing...

But it was Celice himself who did the final blow. So there we are. Chapter 10, all written up! Next time will be my impressions of the run, as well as my plans for the next one!

[sirmola]

sorry lol, Lana's tome was the one Arthur started with, then Arthur bought the Chapter 8 one.

I'm pretty sure Azel passed down a wind tome, let me double check...

EDIT: Yes, Azel passed the chapter 4 tome down to Arthur. Arthur sold it in chapter 7 so Lana could clear the Chapter 7 arena, and then Arthur just bought the Chapter 8 tome in the shop. It seems Arthur's tome he should start with gets replaced with the inherited one, and the Chapter 4/8 one becomes Arthur's 0 kill one.

I actually find it very interesting that the developers coded in complicated behavior for that edge case, even though no one would have . I will admit that my tests just consisted of checking arther's initial inventory and didint last until chapter 8(although it would have been trivial to check for the chapter 6 shop's iron blade, in retrospect. I might check when i'm not so tired). It's still better to put the item in storage so that you fool the check and get two of it though.

[FionordeQuester]

Well, since Horace asked, here is my clear game file!

Now then, what to say...hmm....well, let's start off. I believe I already mentioned the way I still advocate for the Crit weapons, so, maybe onto my other plans for the next run? I know that I'm satisfied with the Turn counts, because even with a slow Epilogue clear of 34 Turns (didn't really try all that hard for that one), I STILL got to be something like...29 Turns under the time limit. Which is just about the sweet spot for me. Not too slow, but not too blindingly fast either.

Exp. though, is something I'm going to try to refine in the next run, as it is clear that I definitely focused too hard on some dudes that didn't need any focus. So, basically, this next run, I'm going to try and see if I can get away with not bothering to try to get either Noish or Midir too far into the Arena. So basically, instead of always making sure they had the Elite Ring each and every time, I'm just going to have them run through the Arena whether they have enough money for it or not.

So, assuming that those two can still end up at Level 15 or so by the end of Gen 1, that also means I can drop Sylvia like a bad habit, given that she takes FOREVER to get through the Arena, even with the Slim Sword! So I would lose out on another...I dunno, 25 Levels? I mean, she's still going to level up just out of virtue of helping people to Staff Abuse their way to Level 30, but I definitely don't want her doing any more in the way of fighting.

So, that's 55 junk levels I can shave off, meaning that if everything otherwise went the exact same as it did in this run, I'd only be 8 Levels above the Exp. Requirement, which would of course be much more efficient. And, judging from how I maxed everyone's Levels in Gen 2, I also know that I need exactly 487 Levels from Gen 1 to be solid. So, even if by some chance, I've misjudged something in this second playthrough of this game, and I come out short on my tally, I can just spend a little extra time in Chapter 5 to make up for it!

Now, for some Chapter by Chapter optimizations I'm thinking of...

Prologue: I'm thinking that I may do as General Horace suggested, giving the Speed Ring to Alec rather than Sigurd. I don't know if that's necessarily the route I want to go yet, but, I'm definitely thinking about it....hmm...well, we'll cross that bridge when we get to it, won't we?

Chapter 1: This time, I'm thinking I'll have Jamka be Aideen's husband rather than Midir. That way we aren't hemorrhaging so much money just passing the Killer Bow back and forth between the two Archers. Plus, the lack of Pursuit won't be a problem for Lester, because he'll have both the Bargain and Pursuit Rings passed down to him (hey, it's not like any other person really needs Pursuit. At least, not when Patty has the Bargain skill from Dew).

Chapter 2: First of all, since we're focusing less on Noish this run, I'm thinking that the Bargain Ring should go to Ardan instead of Noish, because with his higher Power, higher Defense, and still passable Speed, I'm thinking he'll put it to much better use than Noish ever did, hopefully to the point where he won't need to grind in Chapter 3 the way he did in this run.

Other things I want to see if I can do better is on clearing out Mackily's guard. I mean, last time, I used Lex as a diversion, that way he could get closer to Level 20 AND draw the people away at the same time. And that worked fine...but I'm wondering if I can work out something even better.

Also, since Sylvia isn't collecting anything, someone else is now eligible to get those villages. Hmm...

Chapter 3: Yet another General Horace idea to consider (and I'd expect nothing less from a man that's done as many LTC runs as he has !) Maybe Dew should be the one to kill Eltshan's Cross Knights instead of Sigurd? He'd be able to now that Ardan (hopefully), doesn't need to have a death grip on the Elite Ring anymore.

Oh yes, and I'm also thinking that I might have overdone in on how many turns I waited in that Chapter, because everyone except Dew and Briggid fell in love pretty soon before Chapter 5 ever began. And even those two fell in love in the very opening turns! So...maybe I'll just wait something like 40 Turns instead? Then again, I also want to get Papilion's Live Ring for Sigurd and Celice this time, and that'll cost some extra turns...so...hmm...

Chapter 4: Again, since there's not as much focus on Midir, I'm thinking Alec will be the one to grind here instead. Dude would probably kick way more butt than Midir ever could anyways!

Chapter 5: ...Nope, can't really think of anything. I guess MAYBE I could feed that beginning Axe Knight squad to someone other than Sigurd? Then again, Sigurd does kind of want those Hero Sword kills so he can defeat Langbart in a reasonable amount of time...so again, something to consider.

Chapter 6: ...Nope, can't really think of anything.

Chapter 7: Again, can't really think of anything.

Chapter 8: I way overdid it with Aless's training here, as he ended up being WAY past the minimum level needed in order for the Epilogue Arena to get him to Level 30. Same thing with Delmud in...

Chapter 9: ...Who not only ended up going past the Level requirement, but ended up about 16 Exp. away from Level 30 before he ever even got IN to the Epilogue! So, I'm thinking maybe instead of focusing on Delmud and Aless so much, I could just stop their grinding at Level 20 (the minimum level that seems to be needed before the Chapter 9, 10, and Epilogue Arena's combined can carry you to Level 30), and then see what Exp. I can fish up for Faval, Skasaha, Lakche, Arthur, and Shanan? They're the ones who needed a little bit of a push to get to max after all.

Chapter 10: Basically, I'm going to just cut down on Staff spamming, getting everyone to Level 26 w/42+ Exp., rather than straight to Level 30, like I did here.

So, that's that all out of the way. And if you're wondering about pairings, I'm thinking that aside from Jamka X Aideen and maybe Beowulf X Lachesis (although even that's a big "maybe"), I think my pairings worked out just fine. So, anyone have any questions, comments, or complaints? If so, feel free to say so, even if I might not always agree with you! So, have a nice day, and God bless you all !

[General Horace]

Beowulf/Lachesis is a lot better for ranked runs, Delmud gets actual inheritence so he's a lot better out of the gate. Jamka/Aideen still gets the hero bow right? It's a been a while since I did that pairing. You can definately get the Life ring if you get rid of Eltshan early since that triggers his spawn. Sigurd really never needs the speed ring unless he's passing it to Celice honestly. Might be worth giving someone like Beowulf the Bargain ring so he can grab the elite ring whenever he wants it since he has pretty low starting gold and likely won't have it for chapter 3 either (maybe in 4) without the bank of Dew, and he kinda struggles with levels anyway since he joins later. If he parents Delmud and you feed Delmud a few chapter 6 villages, he can probably even use the elite ring in chapter 7 and promote for chapter 8, which is pretty nice considering the elite ring either just sits pointlessly on Celice or is in the shop for chapter 7 usually anyhow..

You did do Lex/Sylvia right? I forget.

[sirmola]

For reference, here are my pairings...

Aira X Holyn

Aideen X Midir

Briggid X Dew

Fury X Levin

Tiltyu X Azel

Sylvia X Lex

Lachesis X Fin

Here's the relevant list, which is on page 4 of the thread.Would killing silvia be faster? Also, i checked the site's fe4 page and jamka can also get the hero bow from aideen.

Edited September 22, 2014 by sirmola

[FionordeQuester]

Would killing silvia be faster?

Nah, killing Sylvia would make me fail the Survival rankings.

Beowulf/Lachesis is a lot better for ranked runs, Delmud gets actual inheritence so he's a lot better out of the gate.... If he parents Delmud and you feed Delmud a few chapter 6 villages, he can probably even use the elite ring in chapter 7 and promote for chapter 8, which is pretty nice considering the elite ring either just sits pointlessly on Celice or is in the shop for chapter 7 usually anyhow...

You can definately get the Life ring if you get rid of Eltshan early since that triggers his spawn.

Man, you're just churning out all kinds of good ideas lately, aren't you ? I could squeeze you so tight, you know? But yeah, I believe that I'll take you up on the Beo X Lachesis idea, give Delmud a bunch of swords from Beo, and get him that Elite Ring! Great idea! And I'll also see what I can do about Eltshan!

Sigurd really never needs the speed ring unless he's passing it to Celice honestly.

Hmmm...on the other hand, it does help a little with his survivability, although, I probably solo things with Sigurd more than most people probably do anyways. As for giving it to Alec, I tried the Prologue yesterday, and really, Alec just isn't in a convenient place to reach the village, as he's both rescuing the village, and doing things to ensure that Sigurd gets two Str. Levels (it's that fixed RNG method I posted in Page 4 I believe).

And while I'm aware that he needs Speed...I think I might actually have a solution to that particular problem...but we'll see.

Might be worth giving someone like Beowulf the Bargain ring so he can grab the elite ring whenever he wants it since he has pretty low starting gold and likely won't have it for chapter 3 either (maybe in 4) without the bank of Dew, and he kinda struggles with levels anyway since he joins later.

Actually, I was thinking "maybe just give Beowulf all the villages besides the Bargain Ring one"? Alec will have enough gold to buy the Elite Ring by then, and anyone else who doesn't will be foot soldiers who wouldn't get them all fast enough anyways. Either way, I think the Bargain Ring is better served on someone like Ardan, whose ability to access both the Pursuit and Elite Rings is basically the difference between whether he clears Chapter 3's Arena or not.

Still though, good ideas...VERY good ideas ...

[Psych]

Does killing Sylvia and reviving her still hurt Survival?

[General Horace]

valkyrie staff reverts one death in the survival rank, so if you killed her and revived her, there would be no consequence. Lex/Sylvia is better anyway.

[FionordeQuester]

Really now? Hmm, I wonder if it might be worth it to kill off Tiltyu or Briggid in Chapter 3 then? That way Claude can Valkyrie Staff them back to life, get them to home base more easily, and get Dew and Briggid to score love points faster?

[General Horace]

Valkyrie only works at the home castle, so Claude would have to get back too.

[FionordeQuester]

Alright, so the Prologue has been done again...nothing really interesting to report there, other than that I've tried to give Alec and Azel just a little more combat than last time, though it's kind of hard to do so with Alec gathering all the villages, and Azel not being able to move very fast. Also, Sigurd's got the Speed Ring, as I decided that as long as Alec got to 13 Speed by the time he reached Keimos, that would be enough. After all, it's unlikely that Alec's going to ever be faster than, say, the wind mage in Chapter 1, and as long as he's not doubled by Keimos, then he should be able to beat him. So, I decided it would be more efficient to improve Sigurd's survival instead, since he's seeing way more combat than anyone else...

EDIT: Also, that Arena bug is REALLY starting to get on my nerves. My Sigurd needed one more Str proc to ORKO all of Kinbois's men in Chapter 1, but with that bug, he wasn't getting that Str proc. But then when I remembered that there WAS actually an Arena bug, I redid the fight, and actually GOT that Str proc., despite not doing anything different! Irritating, isn't it?

Edited September 23, 2014 by FionordeQuester

[FionordeQuester]

Ok, so, I now know that Azel actually CAN eventually get pretty strong, right? So, I've been trying to figure out, "ok, how do I get this fragile piece of worm meat to a point where he can take care of himself, WITHOUT needing Civilian levels"? Because good or not, the guy still has a tough time making any headway, due to his low movement, low durability, and the Arena's being seemingly DESIGNED to mess him up...

And then it dawned on me. "What if Azel...had the Bargain and Speed Rings"? Like, I want Sigurd to have it for all the dangers that he has to face in Chapters 1 and 2 (otherwise, I have to use much more cautious strategies), but, what about after Sigurd reaches the end of Chapter 2, and defeats Zyne and all of his men?

I mean, Ardan is the only guy who needs the Pursuit Ring, so if Dew could give him enough Gold to buy the Elite Ring, Ardan could very well go without ever needing the Bargain Ring. And then that would free Azel up to get the Bargain Ring. Then Dew could once again give him some Gold (rather than giving it to Aideen, as I think I did in the last run...don't worry, I believe I have a solution to Aideen's money problems), and that would be enough for Azel to get both the Speed Ring and the Elite Ring? That way, as long as Azel has 13 Speed, that would be enough for him to NOT get doubled by Bachnin. And then from there, since Keimos only has 1 more AS than Bachnin, getting Azel enough Speed to double him would be an absolutely trivial matter.

And then, once all THAT is done, Azel would keep the Speed Ring, that way, he won't get screwed over by the Mage Knight's low Speed cap, and will actually be able to double every single one of Chapter 5's Arena foes. And of course, the cherry on the cake is that those Civilians are now freed up for someone else to take...

So what do you all think? Solid plan, or might there be problems? And if it all works out, who do you think should grind on the Orgahill Pirates in Chapter 3, if neither Ardan nor Azel need any help?

Edited September 23, 2014 by FionordeQuester

[General Horace]

azel still really struggles with the chapter 3 arena, speed ring or not.

I usually just toss someone the hero sword and elite ring (like ayra/holyn/beowulf/noish/alec) and let them go to town

[Baldrick]

I've been doing my own run of this game, I'm on chapter 4 at the moment. I haven't been rigorous with recording how long I take (though I do have levels and arena counts), so I don't know how useful it would be, but more data is always good, right?

[FionordeQuester]

Of course! Are you using crit weapons, or not?

Edited September 23, 2014 by FionordeQuester

[Baldrick]

Not yet, but I have been focussing on getting the Hero Sword up and running. Dew and Sylvia have had significant trouble with the arena, the likes of Alec/Noish/Lachesis/Beowulf also found it difficult in chapter 2. Not many people finished the first two arenas, more did in chapter 3 but the Hero Lance knight was too much even with the Hero Sword for some units.

[FionordeQuester]

Ok guys, I've done about half of Chapter 1, and while I will post the update for that later, there's something I want to say. And that's that, after having tested how long it took to beat Gandalf with and without Slim Sword grinding...I can now say, without a doubt in my mind, that the Slim Sword strategy is definitely, definitely the right way to go. And the reason I say this, is because I timed exactly how long it took to get the Slim Sword to 100 kills.

So, using my emulator, it seemed that when killing Gandalf without grinding the Slim Sword, 144,461 frames (or, around 40 minutes) had passed by the time Gandalf bit the dust. But when I killed Gandalf after grinding the Slim Sword, I found that that resulted in 253,598 frames (or, around 1 hour and 10 minutes). So, basically, grinding up the Slim Sword literally took only a HALF HOUR to do. And in exchange for giving up that half hour, not only do we have basically a super weapon usable by almost everyone in the party, but Dew gains 5 Levels from hitting the Captain over and over, and Aideen, Lex, and Ethlin are much, MUCH closer to where Jamka's going to be than they otherwise would have been, as pictured here...

So, I ask you, can anyone really picture the Slim Sword NOT saving at least a half hour somewhere down the road, whether it be being able to kill the ultra tanky Chapter 2 bosses earlier, or helping units like Alec, Dew, Ardan, and the others to breeze through the Arena more easily, AND for 5000G less than what a Hero Sword or Lance would cost them?

EDIT: Also, I must mention, the playthrough was exactly the same up until around the 13,000 Frame mark (which is approximately where Slim Sword grinding strats would start), where I then split off with the power of save states. So everything up to that point was exactly the same. Thought that was important to mention.

EDIT 2: Whoops, did I say 13,000 frame mark? I meant the 130,000 frame mark! Sorry Baldrick!

Edited September 25, 2014 by FionordeQuester

[Baldrick]

Do you mean 130,000 frame mark? If so, I think that's fairly economical if the AI behaviour is reliable. If not, I'd record the time it takes to get the Slim Sword from ~15 (or whatever it is at the start) to 100.

[FionordeQuester]

Do you mean 130,000 frame mark? If so, I think that's fairly economical if the AI behaviour is reliable.

Yep! Sorry, that's what I meant. And yeah, the A.I. behavior should be reliable, though it probably doesn't matter either way. The whole grinding phase is literally just Sigurd sitting outside of the castle waiting for 10 Axe Dudes to pop out of the castle and suicide themselves on him, with Dew whacking the Captain day after day (Dew is not going to want to kill him though, not until Sigurd's ready to seize Marpha). And Aideen warps him back to Genoa after every 2-3 groups (depending on whether Sigurd has started Critting people or not).

Edited September 25, 2014 by FionordeQuester

[sirmola]

By the way, can you screengrab what the AAAA addition to the ending looks like? I'm not good enough to see it myself. Thanks.

[FionordeQuester]

The AAAA addition? Hmm? You mean the extra scenes at the opening cinematic of the game?