AMCC4728 Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 (edited) He means turns. I kind of have to agree here. Your chapter one was horrid and while I know it was to get kills on weapons, it wasn't necessary. Not to mention chapter 3 is better for it because of the leader having a leg ring. You also didn't get the hero axe(intentionally) which hurts turn counts in the Augustria chapters and nueters Lex's reliability. Your chapter two was a little slow but not incredibly so. Edited June 8, 2014 by Obese Sonic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FionordeQuester Posted June 8, 2014 Author Share Posted June 8, 2014 (edited) ...You know, I agree with you on missing out on the Hero Axe. That was definitely a mistake (even though Lex doesn't really contribute THAT much to Chapter 2). ...Bu,t I have to say, I think the Slim Sword Crit strat is really working out so far. It allows dudes like Aira, Holyn, and even Dew and Beowulf to completely snap the Arena in two (though of course, in Dew's case, the Pursuit Ring and some Str procs are also helpful). And if I had waited until Chapter 3, I would have gone through two straight Chapters where Alec, Noish, and Ardan wouldn't have had a snowball's chance in Mordor of clearing the Arena without severe RNG abuse... I dunno, maybe I made a mistake, but I think we need to see what happens in the future before we make any judgements. I mean, I know that Sylvia at least doesn't take anywhere near as long to clear the Arena (to the point where she never even needs to repair her weapon as long as she buys it with full uses! I mean, the whole theory behind this is that, by taking so long in Chapter 1, I'll save so much time in Arena training in all the other 10 chapters, that eventually that time will be made up for, you know what I mean? Again though, I'm not saying that I'm right, and you're wrong. I just think I need to play the future chapters before we decide. And in fact, it might be good if me, and perhaps some of you guys make a video of Chapter 1 comparing normal strats, and my grinding strats, just to get a clear picture of how much time the grinding actually takes... EDIT: Actually, yeah, I think I'll do exactly that! So, what are the goals you think I should accomplish with both videos in Chapter 1? Should I focus on still getting everyone through the Arena, 50 Crit Slim Sword or no? Or anything like that? Because we also need a list of goals before I can make such videos. Edited June 8, 2014 by FionordeQuester Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Horace Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 noish can clear the arena's pretty easily (or get pretty far at least) because of critical alone really. Alec has issues, but its still not that hard to get him to ~level 25 just playing normally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FionordeQuester Posted June 8, 2014 Author Share Posted June 8, 2014 noish can clear the arena's pretty easily (or get pretty far at least) because of critical alone really. Alec has issues, but its still not that hard to get him to ~level 25 just playing normally. Yeah, but don't you have to RNG abuse to do that? I mean, without a crit weapon, he's only got like, what, a 9% chance of activating Critical? That's certainly not enough to get him past guys like Dulles and Keimos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Horace Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 he can still clear level 6 on both stages pretty easy, he's only losing out on like 60 exp. Dulles has pretty bad hit on him too, so its not out of the question. He's probably not beating keimos though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FionordeQuester Posted June 8, 2014 Author Share Posted June 8, 2014 (edited) And then things get even dicier in Chapter 3, with Doma and Keller, in which Noish, Alec, and the other scrubs just fall further and further behind. And that's not even including the fact that they aren't gaining nearly enough money to get the Elite Ring over and over... So, that's one of the many reasons why I'm rather persistent about not losing the Slim Sword strats. And of course, if Dew is able to clear out a ton of Arena's, that also means that he has that much more Gold to Give to anyone who needs it. So, that's why I want to do the comparison video. So, what kind of benchmarks do you think someone should set for themselves in Chapter 1? I mean, we could just going back and forth on this, but ultimately I think that debate would be pointless unless we actually have hard, empirical evidence. Edited June 8, 2014 by FionordeQuester Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMCC4728 Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 (edited) The best way to take on the arena for me tends to be use the worst guy available. If he loses, load save and try again with the next unit. This gives you multiple RNG scenarios for arena fights that require you to have luck.(ex. most of noish/ethlin fights) You can also implement an RN wasters where they fight over and over again to waste RNs. Ardan works well for this since he usually only wastes 1 RN past the first loss.(low spd which means he goes second and low avoid) For chapter 1 I usually use this order: Alec-Noish-Azel-Ardan-Ethlin(silver sword)-Cuan-Fin-Midayle-Lex-Sigurd Units I end up returning among new recruits to attempt the arena(usually due to improvements mid-chapter): Lex(Hero Axe) Fin(Stat boost) Midayle(Killer bow) Maybe Azel(Magic Ring) Using this method I get everyone through the arena excluding Alec(7), Azel(4), and Ardan(6). Ethlin is questionable due to Dulles laughing at anything but a crit from her. Not to mention Ardan can manipulate the RNG ad-infinitum mid-chapter since he never has to actually guard anything in gen 1 except maybe chapter 3 augusty and chapter 5 home castle depending on your strategy. Edited June 8, 2014 by Obese Sonic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Horace Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 (edited) its good to give deirdre the magic ring in chapter 1, it helps her clear the arena's in chapter 1 and get to keimos (maybe beat him too with prayer) in chapter 2 since she just oneshots things. Azel can use the ring to beat the merc that owns him i guess though. ardan can beat the windmage with ambush and a dodge or 2 as well. Edited June 8, 2014 by General Horace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMCC4728 Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 its good to give deirdre the magic ring in chapter 1, it helps her clear the arena's in chapter 1 and get to keimos (maybe beat him too with prayer) in chapter 2 since she just oneshots things. Azel can use the ring to beat the merc that owns him i guess though.That's why I said maybe. I know Azel sucks and not much can be done but sometimes I feel like making him good.*shrugs*Although I will be honest getting him to kill sandima is a chore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FionordeQuester Posted June 8, 2014 Author Share Posted June 8, 2014 ...Alright then, thanks a ton guys! I haven't really got any clear parameters for how I should make the videos though...so how about this? How about we make the two videos like this? 1) The 50 Crit Slim Sword video. Our goal will be to get that sword up to 100 kills, and then clear the Arena with everyone but Ardan. 2) The "normal strats" video, in which I get everyone through the Arena except Alec, Azel, Ardan, and Dew (I'm assuming Sonic forgot to mention how far Dew got), no grinding. How about that guys? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMCC4728 Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 (edited) ...Alright then, thanks a ton guys! I haven't really got any clear parameters for how I should make the videos though...so how about this? How about we make the two videos like this? 1) The 50 Crit Slim Sword video. Our goal will be to get that sword up to 100 kills, and then clear the Arena with everyone but Ardan. 2) The "normal strats" video, in which I get everyone through the Arena except Alec, Azel, Ardan, and Dew (I'm assuming Sonic forgot to mention how far Dew got), no grinding. How about that guys? I think that would be a good idea. Dew gets stuck at 3 btw. Not that Dew's training is an issue because of the silvail pirates. Edited June 8, 2014 by Obese Sonic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Horace Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 dew can kill the cross knights pretty easily with the light sword too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMCC4728 Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 dew can kill the cross knights pretty easily with the light sword too. I've never tried that. Doesn't he risk getting javelin'd or does his avoid+sigurd+lachesis+maybe lover make it nigh impossible? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 (edited) There's no way you can get an A rank. You need to beat the game in under 400 turns. There's 12 chapters. That's around 33 turns per chapter. You took almost triple that to beat chapter 1. You'll need to take your time in the second gen for exp, as well. You should definitely restart the run. Edited June 8, 2014 by Chiki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BBM Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 There's no way you can get an A rank. You need to beat the game in under 400 turns. There's 12 chapters. That's around 33 turns per chapter. You took almost triple that to beat chapter 1. You'll need to take your time in the second gen for exp, as well. You should definitely restart the run. Gen 2 can definitely be done under 100 turns; it's not really that much of an issue as long as the exp requirements can be met under the somewhat tighter turn constraints. And the kids will generally have better weapons and stats and skills than their parents, so they can clear the Arena with only a little effort. So it depends mostly on how quickly the staffspamming can be done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Horace Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 I've never tried that. Doesn't he risk getting javelin'd or does his avoid+sigurd+lachesis+maybe lover make it nigh impossible? there is some risk, but IIRC without sigurd/lachesis the hitrate is around 35 or so, so with them it'd be even better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FionordeQuester Posted June 11, 2014 Author Share Posted June 11, 2014 (edited) Alright, Slim Sword Strats (with additional grinding at Marpha) timing is done! Turns out, I took around 3 hours and 55 seconds, even when including Arena training! So how's that do you think, huh? Edited June 11, 2014 by FionordeQuester Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FionordeQuester Posted June 12, 2014 Author Share Posted June 12, 2014 Alright, midway into the "No Slim Sword" strats...and already, I almost feel like just proclaiming that I'm right. I mean, I finally got through the Arena with Sigurd, Cuan, and Noish, got through to Stage 6 with Alec and Ardan, got to Stage 7 with Ethlin, got to Stage 5 with Fin (planned on abusing Prayer with him in later turns), and got to Stage 4 with Midir, Azel, and Lex (with Midir and Lex of course going to clear out the rest with the Killer Bow and Hero Axe respectively)... And you know what? It literally took an hour and 55 seconds just to do that! And we're not even including all of the rest of the Arena! I mean, Balcerzak may have done it in a reasonable amount of time in his videos, but that's only because he had every RNG string planned out beforehand, so that he could record all the Arena's without wasting the viewers' time. I of course, do not have that luxury since I'm approaching this run from an RTA perspective. And if even Chapter 1 took that long, imagine how tough the other Arena's will be, and how much time it will take to get through those!! ...Now, that being said, I also think my current Slim Sword strats could probably use adjustment. It occurs to me that having Sigurd's gang grind on Marpha reinforcements in addition to having Sigurd grind kills at Genoa? It occurs to me that that could be massively inefficient, especially since I was still able to clear the whole Arena with Cuan, Alec, and Noish even without the extra levels. Finally, I also find that, when I have Sigurd grind kills for the Slim Sword at Marpha reinforcements rather than Genoa reinforcements, it turns out I can significantly lower the turn count, and also get Aideen working on doing a LOT more warping much earlier! So, it turns out there WAS some ways to improve on my strats! It just turns out, Slim Sword strats are still likely the best ones in general. So, what do you guys think? Do you want me to do more testing, or are you convinced? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Horace Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 I still think it's totally unessecery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FionordeQuester Posted June 12, 2014 Author Share Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) Well of course it's unnecessary. I could definitely slam my head into the wall over and over again until all my characters make it through the Arena. The question is, "Is it faster than constantly rigging RN's in the Arena for people to clear"? Edited June 12, 2014 by FionordeQuester Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Horace Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 Clearing the arena with every unit isn't required. If noish gets to level 7 and doesn't clear it, it's not a big deal. Once the hero sword shows up the crit slim sword is pretty useless too. I guess it's cheaper to pass around, but that's about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FionordeQuester Posted June 12, 2014 Author Share Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) Once the hero sword shows up the crit slim sword is pretty useless too. I guess it's cheaper to pass around, but that's about it. ...Huh. That's right. I CAN use the Hero Sword in Chapter 3, huh? Actually, that might be an interesting idea to see if the Hero Sword can help, say, Ardan, clear out enemies he has trouble clearing out with the Slim Sword. Like that Dark Mage guy. Dude's pretty luck reliant normally, but with the Hero Sword...Hey, thanks a LOT General Horace! I never thought to use the Hero Sword for Arena clearing! I just always gave it straight to Sigurd so he could start building kills on it and have a good weapon! Now, that being said, the Hero Sword is Rank B, while the Slim Sword is Rank C. And the Hero Sword doesn't come until Chapter 3, meaning that Alec and Noish will have less money since they weren't able to do as well as they could've in past Arena's. Plus, it means I do not have an incredible Gold dispenser in Dew, because I've played a bit of Chapter 3, and let me tell you, it CANNOT be understated just how helpful Dew has been. With all of that money he's earned from all the Arena's, and those Bargain and Give skills, he's literally had enough gold to help no less that THREE people get the Elite Ring without even needing to go to any villages! The way I did that is that, I would look at who has, say, 29000G, and then Dew, who has 44,000G before even fighting anything in the Chapter 3 Arena, buys whatever he has to buy in order to drop his Gold amount to 11,000G, gives that to the 29000G person, then resells whatever he needs to get another 11000G for the OTHER person who has 29000G, gives that to him, and etc, etc. And then, if he needs more money, he can go fetch another 17500G from the Arena. And the beautiful thing is, once he promotes into a ThiefFighter, he only needs to have at least 20,000G in reserve in order to get the Elite Ring, because he's got automatic Pursuit with his promotion! And of course, doing all that would not have been possible if I hadn't taken the time to level Dew up and give him a 50 Crit Slim Sword to clear all the other Arena's with. And of course THAT wouldn't have been possible if I hadn't gotten that 50 Crit Slim Sword to start with! So you see what I'm saying? As for whether or not clearing the Arena with everyone is required...eh, it's probably not. But I want to do the best I can in the Arena anyways, that way, when I clear the Epilogue, I can look back, see how far I exceeded the Exp. rank, and say "ok, so who can afford to lose a few levels? Who can afford to not go through the Arena"? Then I can go back and redo the run! Edited June 12, 2014 by FionordeQuester Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirmola Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 when I clear the Epilogue, I can look back, see how far I exceeded the Exp. rank, and say "ok, so who can afford to lose a few levels? Who can afford to not go through the Arena"? Then I can go back and redo the run! Ah. so this is a test run. Good idea. optimization usualy works best with one. The TASVideos forums are full of them. (although the purpose of yourse is to add leeway instead of removing it, like it is with a TAS WIP) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FionordeQuester Posted June 12, 2014 Author Share Posted June 12, 2014 Yep. That's why it's a project instead of a regular AAAA ranked run! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) Finish the run using the crit slim sword and minimal RN manipulation for the arena first. That way, we can see how it compares to other AAAA runs, including Horace's one below. Edited June 15, 2014 by Baldrick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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