CYOU'RE - Game Over

[MancerNecro]

Shin, why are you voting Junk and why is he your top scum read. From the reads you've posted, I feel that your vote really should be on Bluedoom, Mitsuki or me. In fact, you barely even mentioned Junk at all so eh...

[MancerNecro]

I am going to ISO some players right now. I've trudged through the thread and have some gut reads and feelings on some players.

[Refa]

Day 1.3471241673291 - Refatals

Shin (4): Dormio, kirsche, Mitsuki, Refa

Randa (3): Reinfleche, dirge of swans, Paperblade

MancerNecro (3): eclipse, Junk, Quote

Paperblade (2): Bluedoom, Randa

Bluedoom (1): BBM

Refa (1): Sunwoo

SB. (1): MancerNecro

Sunwoo (1): SB.

Junk (1): Shin

Not Voting (5): Da Bear, Polydeuces, Shinori, #HBC Larsa, Euklyd

There are 43 hours and 19 minutes left in the phase. With 21 alive, it takes 7 to deadline lynch and 11 to hammer.

I've been informed that it is not Christmas.

Fixed maybe.

Somehow, Boron reads as incredibly cautious, like super cautious. Understandably, she's got a lot of work going on right now, so that might be it. Recalling British Mafia, she was really pushing town forward, but it's not like she's currently trying to hide. I'm kinda null for now.

Votes on me aren't an issue but Mitsuki's one on me feels really easy. It's essentially the same case that the entire herd have been sheeping. Voicedwhat I meant about the meta comment quite some while ago, but that seems to be something people tend to ignore. Essentially, both her top reads are based on the meta comment. I feel like she's hanging around in the background.

Mancer's vote on SB is reactionary and very self-conscious. The logic that Dormio drew attention in order to gain town-cred is a bit of a stretch. I'd be willing to buy the logic that Dormio made a weak case, but not that he engineered one to cause a riot and make himself look good. SB does raise a valid point about Mancer's agreeability with anything Dormio related. His #219 seems like a smooth way to change his stance on me without doing anything.

SB, my stance on BBM is whilst he tends to be agreeing and disagreeing with stuff on the surface. Like BBM's catchphrase with this game is "I can agree with X case". He's kinda in the same boat as Boron. They're there, they're reading but they seem to be testing the waters rather than diving in. It's still fairly early so it's a null sign, but if it were to continue in to D2 or something, that's when I'd take issue.

Junko vote is what. I may need to reread but I cannot see where it came from. You "agreeing with stuff" looks really bad, it gives the impression that you're even following the game.

Via's reaction is exactly what I wanted, more elaboration on stuff. At the time of my vote, I felt very little conviction of things and the Paperthing confused me to no end.

##Unvote

##Vote: Junko

Very uncommitted. I'm not sure if it's possible to lurk on D1, but I've barely noticed Junko other than where he literally posts to show he exists.

Why would Boron read as more cautious if she has a lot of work? If anything, wouldn't that make her less cautious because she's focused on other things? Also your read on her is incredibly waffly (I know you love that stuff, but yeesh), because I can't tell what exactly you think is townie/scummy about her.

Mitsuki is probably hanging in the background for IRL reasons she cited earlier; it's not fair of you to excuse Boron for the same reasons (note that I don't have any issues with you doing so for Boron, should probably factor that into my own read) while harping on Mitsuki for hanging around in the background (especially with only one post to her name).

BBM read is pretty good; I can get behind your reasoning and well...not much else to say.

Mancer case is OK, I guess; don't agree with it at all, but I can see where you're coming from on that one. What does bother me is why you voted Junko over him; Mancer (ironically enough) said it best; your case on him should be way stronger than your case on Junko, which is basically voting him for being a lurker (on D1, no less; doesn't this sort of contradict your BBM/Boron reads, wherein you said they seemed like they were testing the waters; how is Junko any different in this regard and why is he scummier than Mancer?).

Also don't like how you dismissed your Bizz read so easily. Explain how the reaction test was supposed to work, and what reactions you were expecting from Town/Scum Bizz respectively.

[Shin]

Shin, why are you voting Junk and why is he your top scum read. From the reads you've posted, I feel that your vote really should be on Bluedoom, Mitsuki or me. In fact, you barely even mentioned Junk at all so eh...

One, I seemed to have made like a million typos. Two, a vote is a beautiful tool! Of course it's obvious that I have other scumreads, but I feel like prying into this one further.

[Refa]

But why would you want to pry into someone who you think is lurking scum (and thus less likely to respond to your vote) over someone who's more active and actually responding to you (hi, Mancer)?

[MancerNecro]

@Shin: Your vote serves no purpose and calling it a beautiful tool is quite pointless as well. Voting someone who's probably not going to be able to respond for some time is a waste of your vote.

[Shin]

Why would Boron read as more cautious if she has a lot of work? If anything, wouldn't that make her less cautious because she's focused on other things? Also your read on her is incredibly waffly (I know you love that stuff, but yeesh), because I can't tell what exactly you think is townie/scummy about her.

My logic is that she'd be less willing to make BIG PLAYS^TM if she were busy. The general waffleness of the post is kinda indicative of my opinion. I'm mostly null on her to be honest, although I tend to think aloud a lot! I was unaware Mitsuki was having IRL stuff, so that would kinda put her in the same boat - note, I speak to Boron far more than Mitsuki for some reason.

BBM and Boron have at least put effort into reading the game. I get a sense that they've been following it. Junko on the otherhand does not give that air at all. He pops in, makes vote, comments on something from 5 pages back and all is good. That's the difference I've seen. A vote isn't just for voting! I'm expressing my suspicion on Junko, which will hopefully grab his attention.

Mancer, you know that I've got a read on you, putting a vote on you wouldn't serve much purpose other than saying "I really don't like Mancer."

You people post too fast, I'm still trying to reply to stuff, bros!

[Shin]

Also don't like how you dismissed your Bizz read so easily. Explain how the reaction test was supposed to work, and what reactions you were expecting from Town/Scum Bizz respectively.

I struggle with reading Via, their posting style confuses me. I needed to see what would happen with a little pressure. The vote seemed opportunistic at first, so I wanted to make sure it wasn't a simple sheep. It's less of a dismissal, it's more of a "hmm, that don't seem too bad that there don't".

[Sunwoo]

Shin, what is your actual read on Dormio now? Is he no longer a scum read since he's in the "everyone else" tier? Also, I feel that British mafia is more the exception and not the rule of my town play. I put in more effort because it was your game and because no one else was doing much.

I think that Shin's response is somewhat satisfactory and gives his thoughts/reads, but I'll have to look through the cases people made on him to see if I feel that he actually responded to the issues people had against him.

[Percivalé]

I struggle with reading Via, their posting style confuses me.

I'd like to thank the academy

[Refa]

Bolded is a lie. I've stated that I don't think Dormio's actions were scummy, therefore I do not have a scum read on him. Even though I may not have agreed with his Shin vote, that doesn't change my read on him. So yeah, I have a read on Dormio.

Do you honestly think I haven't tried to make the effort to form an initial read? I am stuck so hard on Shin because I really don't think his actions are scummy and there are a lot of things he has to respond to when he gets back that'll probably influence my read on him. Just because I'm not being hasty as fuck and forcing myself to have a read I have no confidence in doesn't mean I'm not making an effort. It means I need more information before I can make a read I'm confident in. Maybe you should try bullshitting a read on someone you have a hard time reading without enough information.

Not obvious enough, because after RVS ended you still got away for a good part of D1 before I constructed an updated case on you. And regardless of the situation, it is still a scum tell so I don't see what your point here is. Paper's ISO rather annoys me, on another glance it looks like a lot of his stuff is sort of "in response" but doesn't really add anything new or look into anything, which he could've done instead of simply responding. His statements also feel "bare bone", like he's making an observation on the surface but not really looking into it.

I already explained why I found the basis of BBM's Dormio suspicion faulty, go read it! He made a side comment about Dormio's meta and why his kirsche vote was scummy, and after he was corrected on the faulty meta he looked like he was still trying to use Dormio's meta to say that Dormio couldn't be considered "townie" on it, or in other words holding something against Dormio over meta! Also, you say here that I said I didn't agree that Dormio was scummy. Earlier, you said that I had no reads on Dormio. Which is it, huh?

I was scum in SFMM4. If my tone comes off a lot townier than it did in that game, kind of tells you something, doesn't it?

To clarify, you've stated that you do not find his actions scummy. This doesn't actually indicate any sort of read on him.

I bullshit reads all of the time on people that I have a hard time reading, I just have to roll scum to make it happen. My point is you've only mentioned his early vote on Dormio and nothing else. It's perfectly fine if you can't get any reads out of that, but I'd like to know what your thoughts are on his later content (which you haven't commented on at all, unless I missed something).

Being away for a not significant portion of D1 isn't actually a scum tell...Fair enough regarding Paper's ISO though. I was townreading the dude, but I'll look into him again I guess.

OK, the blame for missing your BBM read is all on me. Still, it sounded less like he was holding something over Dormio because of meta and more because he was annoyed at people dismissing Dormio because of that (you could argue that BBM does this as scum, which is why I'm a bit iffy on him overall despite his content generally being pretty good).

My issue is that there's a discrepancy between your tone and your actual content. Tis why I'm a lot less confident about my read on you than on Shin despite having written a roughly equal number of words on both.

My logic is that she'd be less willing to make BIG PLAYS^TM if she were busy. The general waffleness of the post is kinda indicative of my opinion. I'm mostly null on her to be honest, although I tend to think aloud a lot! I was unaware Mitsuki was having IRL stuff, so that would kinda put her in the same boat - note, I speak to Boron far more than Mitsuki for some reason.

BBM and Boron have at least put effort into reading the game. I get a sense that they've been following it. Junko on the otherhand does not give that air at all. He pops in, makes vote, comments on something from 5 pages back and all is good. That's the difference I've seen. A vote isn't just for voting! I'm expressing my suspicion on Junko, which will hopefully grab his attention.

Mancer, you know that I've got a read on you, putting a vote on you wouldn't serve much purpose other than saying "I really don't like Mancer."

Hahaha, fair enough regarding your Boron read. Who'd have thought that you spoke more to Boron than Mitsuki?

I still don't get why you aren't voting Mancer over Junko; more votes tends to get better reactions. If I was Scum!Junko who was actively lurking, I'd just kind of yawn and ignore everything if I saw just one vote on me.

I struggle with reading Via, their posting style confuses me. I needed to see what would happen with a little pressure. The vote seemed opportunistic at first, so I wanted to make sure it wasn't a simple sheep. It's less of a dismissal, it's more of a "hmm, that don't seem too bad that there don't".

OK...I don't quite get it, but sure.

[Percivalé]

Also my Mancer vote is for a reason I may or may not explain later but my read on him still hasn't gotten better.

I started having some doubts on Shin after what Marth posted about him and even though I don't like the way he reaction tested me, I like what he's offering right now. The problem with Mancer is he's still commenting on small things and I'm still confused on what his reads are. I'm eager for his upcoming promised ISOs, because his content is just getting less and less committed and more, what's the word, nitpicky.

[Shin]

Shin, what is your actual read on Dormio now? Is he no longer a scum read since he's in the "everyone else" tier? Also, I feel that British mafia is more the exception and not the rule of my town play. I put in more effort because it was your game and because no one else was doing much.

I admitted that my Dormio case wasn't particularly good a few posts ago. I can't really make any up to date comments on Dormio, but other than the kirsche and the meta things, there's not really much indication they're scum in my eyes. That's fair enough. The only games I really remember with you are "Tells Shin how to scum" mafia, "Pretends to be Shin" mafia and "Shin's mafia mafia".

Not the Junko YAWN. I dunno, it may seem silly but I was hoping I could grab Junko's attention. Curse this SHINQUISITION.

[MancerNecro]

After ISOing the relevant players, my scum rewards are in this order: Bluedoom > Randa > Shin > Junk > Dormio from most scummy to least scummy.

I liked Dormio's later posts and his case on Shin so he's less scummy to me right now.

I don't like Shin's latest contradictions with his reads and vote and I can sort of see Dormio's case on him as well.

Bluedoom is my top scum read after ISOs. He placed a really early vote on Paperblade (and I don't think he has ever moved his vote at all). After that, he goes on to waffle so much on other players. He goes "I think he's scummy but eh he can do that as both alignments anyway" or "I can see the case on so and so but I'm not sure" (not exactly quoted word for word but that's the gist of Mose of Bluedoom's posts). He attacks several other players as well but doesn't change his vote from Paperblade and doesn't commit to any of them? Don't really like this at all.

##Unvote, ##Vote: Bluedoom

Randa is next because Randa has way so many posts but like so little of them has content. He fluffs so much and I don't really get his Paperblade vote as well? I don't see Randa scum hunting anyone at this point in time and he seems to be quite active and reading the thread? This reminds me of his Guitar Mafia playstyle although he was more sarcastic and unhelpful in that game.

Junk seems to waltz in right in the middle of the day and place a random vote on me what? That and he cases Shin but then goes "I don't think I've voted" and voted for me? Seems contradictory and random.....

[Percivalé]

Also Mitsuki's one post did hit my gut scumvibes but I'm waiting for more content from her since she posted while frustrated

also bear and shinori should exist

love via xoxoxxoxoxoxo

[Percivalé]

I'm tired and will read what Mancer just posted and probably iso randa and junko whne i'm not dying irl

[MancerNecro]

Dormio's not made any posts recently so I don't have much other reads from him other than his initial case on kirsche. My read on him might probably depend more on the posts he makes later on in the day.

Several other players that I'm going to look into are Mitsuki, Levity and Boron. They have had some interactions lately and I feel that I should reread everything to get a better grasp on the thread.

[Refa]

After ISOing the relevant players, my scum rewards are in this order: Bluedoom > Randa > Shin > Junk > Dormio from most scummy to least scummy.

I liked Dormio's later posts and his case on Shin so he's less scummy to me right now.

I don't like Shin's latest contradictions with his reads and vote and I can sort of see Dormio's case on him as well.

Bluedoom is my top scum read after ISOs. He placed a really early vote on Paperblade (and I don't think he has ever moved his vote at all). After that, he goes on to waffle so much on other players. He goes "I think he's scummy but eh he can do that as both alignments anyway" or "I can see the case on so and so but I'm not sure" (not exactly quoted word for word but that's the gist of Mose of Bluedoom's posts). He attacks several other players as well but doesn't change his vote from Paperblade and doesn't commit to any of them? Don't really like this at all.

##Unvote, ##Vote: Bluedoom

Randa is next because Randa has way so many posts but like so little of them has content. He fluffs so much and I don't really get his Paperblade vote as well? I don't see Randa scum hunting anyone at this point in time and he seems to be quite active and reading the thread? This reminds me of his Guitar Mafia playstyle although he was more sarcastic and unhelpful in that game.

First two cases are OK, but I'd like more elaboration on what you like about Dormio's latest posts.

I did a quick skim of Marthipan's ISO and that isn't the case. He has definite scumreads on BBM and you as well for starters (and some townreads that aren't lazy like they sometimes can be in his scum games). I dunno, this is just a really vague reasoning, don't like it at all.

You know what Randa's play also reminds me of? Every Randa game ever. I mean you said the same thing in Hard NOC's 2 (and you were scum that time around), and I'd like to know what's significantly different about Randa's play compared to that.

[Mitsuki]

Posts are being made at a faster pace than I can read and process them.

I don't get why people are suspecting BBM on using wrong meta if he didn't know it was wrong, I don't see what's scummy about acknowledging one of the points you brought up isn't telling and I don't see how he was trying to pass meta as a valid point afterwards. Other points I recall are ok, I just don't see them as telling.

Eclipse feels like she's quoting and commenting on most stuff just for the sake of posting about many things without a clear purpose in mind. This post is an example of that. It may just be bias though, I'd like other people to give their thoughts on this.

How is that worse than Mancer or Randa?

Let me try to explain this better. Both Eclipse and Shin suspected Dormio on using self-meta. The thing is, they are deliberately choosing to ignore that the reason why Dormio is bringing up meta is that meta is being brought up against him.

I think this comes from scum using something that's usually seen as scummy (using self-meta) as a scumtell when it makes sense when you take context into account.
I don't see how this is weaker than my points on Mancer and Randa.

[MancerNecro]

Uhh, you do realize that Bluedoom did not ever commit to his scum read on me and he went off to say that I don't feel like scum in his other post. I'll actually go and find the post and quote it out too, actually.

Also, compare Randa's play to School of Hard NOCs and Qprogue please. I feel like he is not doing as much as he was in those games and that feels scummy to me. Granted, I don't know how Randa normally plays but that does not change the fact that he does not have a lot of reads in this game and hasn't been actually scum hunting hard.

[Shin]

Let me try to explain this better. Both Eclipse and Shin suspected Dormio on using self-meta. The thing is, they are deliberately choosing to ignore that the reason why Dormio is bringing up meta is that meta is being brought up against him.

I actually took issue with it because he didn't seem to be using it to just counter BBM's point, but because he seemed to be using it as a way to say "nope, I'm town". It's something I've said a few times.

[MancerNecro]

I have a scumread on Mancer and this is because of his indecisiveness and now he's struggling with all town-null reads. I know he's trying to change his posting style to a less spammy one, but that doesn't mean his scumhunting ability should be deterred! Like in Qprogue Mancer was capable of getting definite, strong scumreads like the one on me( D1 anyway ;-;). Just think his waffling and playing devil's advocate to himself during the kirsche/Dormio debacle just really looks scummy now when I see the rest of his reads and ISO. The reason he's not a top priority or that I don't feel as strong about this one is because he also has the tendency to tunnel/make a mountain out of a molehill of small things even as town, which explains his initial behaviour with Dormio.

This is the post. He brings up the scum read but says "it doesn't feel as strong as he has the tendency to tunnel and make a mountain out of a molehill of small things". Then what is the point of bringing up the read in the first place if you are going to counter it right away in the same paragraph?

[Dormio]

Hey, another Shin post.

I do like how he's going about presenting opinions on other people.

I don't like his Junk vote. I don't understand why Junk takes priority over other lurkers. Or why lurkers take priority over people with actual content.

Making more posts before I fall asleep hopefully.

[Refa]

@Mitsuki- Pretty sure you're misinterpreting eclipse's post; she said the scummiest thing about Dormio was his self meta comment and then proceeded not to scumread him (I think? Correct me if I'm wrong here), so the implication is that she's not all that bothered by him. I'm townreading her based on her content (to be more specific, it's more the way it's presented than the actual reads themselves) and her role which does not seem like a scum fakeclaim at all lol (I know there can be scum mayors, but this is just too weird to be like that).

@Mancer- Because he's explaining why his read on you is weaker than his read on Paperblade? I mean FYPOV, why would Scum!Marthipan stick his vote on Paperblade, a never started wagon, over wagoning you when he had a perfectly reasonable excuse to do so?

[Bluedoom]

I dont need to commit to other scumreads and vote them when i have a stronger scumread on pblade

your vote seems like a chainsaw defence for pblade btw

geez i wonder why