How to make Armor Knights more valuable?

[General Banzai]

Okay well in FESS's case the problem is probably that the game is ezpz

[Nicolas]

I completely disagree with Cageolas.

Spell my name right.

What's the point of having a unit who has such and such stat if you're not allowed to use that stat, and that stat is actually half of what it really is? And why would a guy who is riding a horse get fatigued by movement anyway? Unless this mechanic only applied to mounted units, in which case it would make opposite-sense, all it's going to do is be obnoxious as all your other units will be held back by the same asinine restrictions.

Man, I'm not working in IS and discussing about game design every day. That's not even plan what to do. Maybe some class should have fatigue, maybe fatigue should apply only during enemy phase, maybe it's something like -n to att and -m to avid or just anything. It's underdeveloped idea which main assumption is force player to plan more forward and disallow brainlessly moving forward.

Maybe a better design strategy is not to give the player units like Seth and Sety. The Full Move Wolf Gang Kill Them All strat only works because those individual units are so stupidly strong. But of course there was a design philosophy in giving the player such strong units, as a crutch for less killed players. It just so happens that good players continue to use these amateur hour units and then complain that they trivialize the game

Design of FE games assumes OP units in team even if that's not prepromoted unit. Like dondon said if you don't have seth, you have Franz, if you don't have Sety, you have Lionan et cetera, et cetera...

Also you have scrolls, statbooster, promo gains, skill manual.... You can create something that ridiculous unfair like Resire@Lionan with Wrath.

in an LTC context, i'd argue that jagen-archetype units add a layer of complexity to the game. seth-stomping by itself is easy. seth-stomping while grinding artur's staff rank to A is much harder.

I know. That's why I said the only way to have true tactical challenge in FE is play LTC or any other form of effective play. You have to think few move forward rather than brainlessly pushing with seth or any other op unit.

Edited January 3, 2015 by Nicolas

[Axie]

the point of banzai was not really addressed though: if you have or can potentially havr units that can trivialize the game on their own, good game design would simply not give those units to you, or allow you to raise any unit to that point.

in fe8's case, the enemies wouldn't be so weak that franz can easily grow and overpower then forever. or actually, so weak that base seth can probably solo everything except lyon/fomortiis lol

[Baldrick]

Lionan

Spell her name right.

Some over-complicated fatigue mechanic isn't really needed; just increasing enemy offense will achieve the same thing, and more. If your units can't take on a whole squad of enemies at once, mounts won't be able to charge ahead freely, and units won't snowball by taking all of the EXP. Armour knights superior defence would be relevant, and neutralising as many enemies as possible each turn without taking on too much risk and being in a good position for the enemy phase would be an interesting problem.

[Axie]

yes, I agree with the notion that removing some of the focus from enemy phase combat goes a long way to make cavaliers less dominating and knights (also, archers) more useful; fe12 did that (specially in the chapters with dragons) and a bow user always found a deployment slot for me

knights really need regular foot unit movement for that to work though

[Nicolas]

My fatigue system don't have to be something complicated. That might be just if mounted unit moved full x spaces their avoid and hit is lower by x%. Or if knight have not attacked anything in player phase he has 1,5x more defense in enemy's phase.

I don't think that's too complicated even for such casual game like FE.

knights really need regular foot unit movement for that to work though

But then they are not so much different that tanky, but slow fighters. I think lower movement is that thing what IS is considering as main feature of knight.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Nicolas

[dondon151]

the point of banzai was not really addressed though: if you have or can potentially havr units that can trivialize the game on their own, good game design would simply not give those units to you, or allow you to raise any unit to that point.

i was implying that positive feedback is unavoidable. i haven't played very many RPGs, but i can't think of one that handles positive feedback well.

[General Banzai]

By positive feedback you mean how a unit getting strong means they can kill more enemies and thus get stronger, right?

Thracia's low stat caps and fatigue system was an interesting way to mitigate that issue, although the stat caps don't really mean much until the real late game (and arguably not even then, although the Hell tomes are a different story). And while Fatigue made it so you couldn't simply rely on one unit, basically anyone you invest resources into in that game will get gud pretty fast.

More recent FEs have also actively fought against this in their hardest difficulties. I haven't played FE12 but in FESD H5 you're not apt to have a unit who can reliably do much on their own until well into the game. Coincidentally turning Wolfgar into double generals is a pretty effective albeit slow strategy for getting through that game (it's what I did at least) so that ties into the original topic of making armored units more useful.

FE13 Lunatic+ also effectively stops you from soloing the game with one unit, even though units in that game can pretty quickly get super OP. In fact people rag on the skills for being bullshit fake difficulty but really they simply force you to use strategies beyond "Get X unit OP, skip enemy phase" (this may be why people don't like it). Each and every skill in that game has a clear counter strategy and each is designed to counter a specific strategy as well.

Aegis+ and Pavise+: Counters reliance on one unit - Countered by using a mix of units or strong pair-up partner

Luna+: Counters tanking - Countered by dodgetanking

Hawkeye: Counters dodgetanking - Countered by tanking

Pass: Counters turtling and reliance on enemy phase combat - Countered by ally phase combat

Counter: Counters reliance on one unit and enemy phase combat - Countered by ally phase combat (and Archers!)

Even by endgame, unless you're simply Galeforks one-turn cheesing every chapter (in which case why play), no superunit your hard work has crafted can singlehandedly counter all these skills. Using a diverse team with different weapon types and classes thus actually improves your ability to beat the game, something you can't really say about any other FE.

[Ownagepuffs]

yes, I agree with the notion that removing some of the focus from enemy phase combat goes a long way to make cavaliers less dominating and knights (also, archers) more useful; fe12 did that (specially in the chapters with dragons) and a bow user always found a deployment slot for me

knights really need regular foot unit movement for that to work though

You mean a horsmen. Which is also a mount. Snipers were eh. But props to FE12 for making Bows valuable though.

By positive feedback you mean how a unit getting strong means they can kill more enemies and thus get stronger, right?

Thracia's low stat caps and fatigue system was an interesting way to mitigate that issue, although the stat caps don't really mean much until the real late game (and arguably not even then, although the Hell tomes are a different story). And while Fatigue made it so you couldn't simply rely on one unit, basically anyone you invest resources into in that game will get gud pretty fast.

More recent FEs have also actively fought against this in their hardest difficulties. I haven't played FE12 but in FESD H5 you're not apt to have a unit who can reliably do much on their own until well into the game. Coincidentally turning Wolfgar into double generals is a pretty effective albeit slow strategy for getting through that game (it's what I did at least) so that ties into the original topic of making armored units more useful.

FE13 Lunatic+ also effectively stops you from soloing the game with one unit, even though units in that game can pretty quickly get super OP. In fact people rag on the skills for being bullshit fake difficulty but really they simply force you to use strategies beyond "Get X unit OP, skip enemy phase" (this may be why people don't like it). Each and every skill in that game has a clear counter strategy and each is designed to counter a specific strategy as well.

Aegis+ and Pavise+: Counters reliance on one unit - Countered by using a mix of units or strong pair-up partner

Luna+: Counters tanking - Countered by dodgetanking

Hawkeye: Counters dodgetanking - Countered by tanking

Pass: Counters turtling and reliance on enemy phase combat - Countered by ally phase combat

Counter: Counters reliance on one unit and enemy phase combat - Countered by ally phase combat (and Archers!)

Even by endgame, unless you're simply Galeforks one-turn cheesing every chapter (in which case why play), no superunit your hard work has crafted can singlehandedly counter all these skills. Using a diverse team with different weapon types and classes thus actually improves your ability to beat the game, something you can't really say about any other FE.

FE12 gives you Kris (with customizable growths and bases to boot), Catria, and Palla who are better than almost everyone in your army for basically the entire game. Sirius too. Lol I wouldn't be surprised if FE12 holds the record for highest number of "straight to the bench" units in the series. Isn't this the game with the "free silvers" tier?

Even FE13 gives you Robin who is like Kris but with the veteran skill. Veteran is the epitome of positive feedback. There's also Morgan and Lucina who are often better than everyone you get up until the point you get them, and kind of stay that way forever.

So while certain games do take strides towards reducing positive feedback, it's something that's pretty hard to avoid.

[Jotari]

I've heard FE12 Lunatic making Bows super useful a lot before but how exactly does it do so? Just makes player phase really important? I've only player New Mystery of The Emblem on normal mode the one time.

[Ownagepuffs]

I've heard FE12 Lunatic making Bows super useful a lot before but how exactly does it do so? Just makes player phase really important? I've only player New Mystery of The Emblem on normal mode the one time.

The high density of dragon type enemies midgame. They are pretty tough but they are also weak to bows. Also those early wyvern knights.

[Jotari]

The high density of dragon type enemies midgame. They are pretty tough but they are also weak to bows. Also those early wyvern knights.

Oh? All dragons are weak to bows? I assumed it was just the wyvern ones.

[General Banzai]

You mean a horsmen. Which is also a mount. Snipers were eh. But props to FE12 for making Bows valuable though.

FE12 gives you Kris (with customizable growths and bases to boot), Catria, and Palla who are better than almost everyone in your army for basically the entire game. Sirius too. Lol I wouldn't be surprised if FE12 holds the record for highest number of "straight to the bench" units in the series. Isn't this the game with the "free silvers" tier?

Even FE13 gives you Robin who is like Kris but with the veteran skill. Veteran is the epitome of positive feedback. There's also Morgan and Lucina who are often better than everyone you get up until the point you get them, and kind of stay that way forever.

So while certain games do take strides towards reducing positive feedback, it's something that's pretty hard to avoid.

Being better than everyone else in the game doesn't necessarily mean good enough to solo the game, however. Robin and the kids who have reasonable recruitment times are head and shoulders above most other units but they can't solo Luna+ (they can solo Vanilluna though).

Edited January 4, 2015 by General Banzai

[Gradivus.]

only wyverns of all dragons are weak to bows, but bows can hit other dragons pretty hard on enemy phase too (though I find Hand Axes or Javelins on bulky units better to dismantle grounded dragons) Another very useful thing about bows is that Horsemen hit the important benchmark of doubling 23-26 Spd enemies without counters while having great movement. also, you should play fe12 lunatic!

Edited January 4, 2015 by Gradivus.

[LeaderR Elliot]

FE12 Lunatic and Lunatic reverse put emphasis on player phase by buffing all enemy stats but def/res/luck to insane levels enough to make most durable units 2HKO until midgame.

Having a hit in durability means you do not want to engame many enemies on enemy phase, you want to manipulate enemy AI targets. Every enemy unit needs to be planned out before playing the chapter.

On lunatic reverse vantage+ on every enemy means indirect combat is key agaisnt 1 range enemies on player phase just to not take damage on Player phase.

On another note, Snipers have insane durabilty and would not have issues surviving 1 hit, they need very little investment in that.

Bows is basically full power 2 range without mage crappy durability. There is no much fear moving a sniper full 7 move.

Archers have 5 move for some crappy reason (its for prologue archers to not murder you) and hunters are superior for bow training.

Since begining of game. You are given lots of 1 range units, and 1 bow user (ryan) they encourage the player to use him since is the only 2 range weapon that exist in prologue (no gordin does not exist).

Since chapter 2 you start facing promoted draco knights (a steel bow forge is best method to take them out) these dracos appear in chapter 3, 5, 7, 9. Wyverns appear in chapter 11, 12, 13. Thats 8 full chapters where your steel bow is OHKO'ing or feeding kills to others. Best forge ever. Also since its only D rank a fresh promotes sniper/horseman can rekt with it.

Snipers get 29 spd cap, 5 crit and hit class bonus, excellent bases, Base C rank bows, Parthia available since chapter 9. In fact bows are so OP that the only indirect nerf is lack of longbow until chapter 20x. If longbow was available sooner some incredible map design would be no more like Chapter 17 initial draco knights (you can snipe them with longbow otherwise better rig crits with fliers)

And sorry if some of this is unreadable.

[Nicolas]

Well, I really need to play FE12.

[Jotari]

FE12 Lunatic and Lunatic reverse put emphasis on player phase by buffing all enemy stats but def/res/luck to insane levels enough to make most durable units 2HKO until midgame.

Having a hit in durability means you do not want to engame many enemies on enemy phase, you want to manipulate enemy AI targets. Every enemy unit needs to be planned out before playing the chapter.

On lunatic reverse vantage+ on every enemy means indirect combat is key agaisnt 1 range enemies on player phase just to not take damage on Player phase.

On another note, Snipers have insane durabilty and would not have issues surviving 1 hit, they need very little investment in that.

Bows is basically full power 2 range without mage crappy durability. There is no much fear moving a sniper full 7 move.

Archers have 5 move for some crappy reason (its for prologue archers to not murder you) and hunters are superior for bow training.

Since begining of game. You are given lots of 1 range units, and 1 bow user (ryan) they encourage the player to use him since is the only 2 range weapon that exist in prologue (no gordin does not exist).

Since chapter 2 you start facing promoted draco knights (a steel bow forge is best method to take them out) these dracos appear in chapter 3, 5, 7, 9. Wyverns appear in chapter 11, 12, 13. Thats 8 full chapters where your steel bow is OHKO'ing or feeding kills to others. Best forge ever. Also since its only D rank a fresh promotes sniper/horseman can rekt with it.

Snipers get 29 spd cap, 5 crit and hit class bonus, excellent bases, Base C rank bows, Parthia available since chapter 9. In fact bows are so OP that the only indirect nerf is lack of longbow until chapter 20x. If longbow was available sooner some incredible map design would be no more like Chapter 17 initial draco knights (you can snipe them with longbow otherwise better rig crits with fliers)

And sorry if some of this is unreadable.

Not unreadable at all. I think you've explained it quite well.

[MartyTheDemonSlayer]

Any strengthening of Armor Knights should begin by heavily nerfing the defenses of mounted units. Mounts have some of the highest defenses in most games, the highest movement, and good enough offense to destroy all enemies. If they were weaker defensively in most players' hands they would be limited to hit and run tactics with canto. This would make more players use armor knights. Of course the best players would find ways to avoid using them anyways, but no game should be developed with only the top players in mind, and cavalry who are weak defensively would make more casual players use armor knights more.

[Nicolas]

Any strengthening of Armor Knights should begin by heavily nerfing the defenses of mounted units. Mounts have some of the highest defenses in most games, the highest movement, and good enough offense to destroy all enemies. If they were weaker defensively in most players' hands they would be limited to hit and run tactics with canto. This would make more players use armor knights. Of course the best players would find ways to avoid using them anyways, but no game should be developed with only the top players in mind, and cavalry who are weak defensively would make more casual players use armor knights more.

LOL not only highest defense. Mounts are masterrace of FE, they have everything better.

Only thing which mounts cannot do is wrap.

[Snowy_One]

The real irony is that, if you remove mounted units, suddenly the game becomes a LOT more balanced on the whole since every class now has its own defined place. Armor Knights will still have problems, but that will be because of that stupid movement penalty. They might need a 5%-10% speed boost, but that would probably be it to make them 'balanced'.

Even with them the peggies and wyvern knights are... more balanced? They have a clear weakness, the peggies are frail which accents the weakness and wyvern knights tend to be slow as well. Sure, they can get OP'ed (*coughFE10JillandHaarcough*), but then you have units like FE9 Tanith and Haar whom, while decent, don't suddenly obsolete other units either.

[Ownagepuffs]

The real irony is that, if you remove mounted units, suddenly the game becomes a LOT more balanced on the whole since every class now has its own defined place. Armor Knights will still have problems, but that will be because of that stupid movement penalty. They might need a 5%-10% speed boost, but that would probably be it to make them 'balanced'.

Even with them the peggies and wyvern knights are... more balanced? They have a clear weakness, the peggies are frail which accents the weakness and wyvern knights tend to be slow as well. Sure, they can get OP'ed (*coughFE10JillandHaarcough*), but then you have units like FE9 Tanith and Haar whom, while decent, don't suddenly obsolete other units either.

Fliers would retain their dominance. Bow weakness hasn't stopped them yet.

[algae]

Would slightly lowering mounts' mobility (say, 6 move in games where they start at 7) be out of the question?

[Gradivus.]

So, for example, Percival has 7 move as a Paladin instead of 8? I'd give him boots like I would anyways, problem solved. he'd be just as amazing and he wouldn't care in practice about the one less move. also, trying to make perfect balance in FE would likely make it boring in the end.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Gradivus.

[Psych]

Since we're talking about mounts, can we bring up troubadours or something? Because I usually don't see them too much stronger over Clerics. You usually have the cleric for a pretty good amount of time before the troubadour and can get her enough levels to where the mount doesn't feel as useful, since stuff like maybe Physic range is limited by usually the troub having low magic.

In non-jugdral settings, where troubadours are just female calvs basically, i'd say they don't get too much.

[Ownagepuffs]

They'll only be 1 tile shorter. They will still have rescue utility, dual weapon types at base, and canto to their name.

Edit: The difference is awesomeness between the cleric and the troubadour is dependent on how much quicker you get the troub compared to the cleric.

In FE7 you get Serra and Priscilla in the same chapter. It's pretty clear that Serra gets da bench. In Awakening, Maribelle comes quick enough that her 7 Mov eclipses Lissa. She'll also get a more useful skill in the form of Demoiselle and her lower magic is easy o fix via pair up.

But Moulder > L'Arachel because L'Arachel comes super late relative to your first clerics.

In FE4, Troubadours could actually fight but there staffery was not on par with the dedicates clerics so they both had a spot on the team.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Ownagepuffs