How to make Armor Knights more valuable?

[Axie]

So, for example, Percival has 7 move as a Paladin instead of 8? I'd give him boots like I would anyways, problem solved. he'd be just as amazing and he wouldn't care in practice about the one less move. also, trying to make perfect balance in FE would likely make it boring in the end.

in that example though that would still mean you've spent 14 chapters and 3 gaidens with all of your mounts having one less move until chapter 15, which, I assume, would be relevant in chapters such as chapter 8 (also milady would still have one less move, until the end of chapter 21)

with that said I don't think taking one move away from mounts is the solution (well, fliers could have one less move and still be very useful without outclassing mounts, I think); like many have said, if cavaliers weren't sturdy the units that ARE sturdy would be more valuable

EDIT: also troubadours don't outclass clerics by a lot because most of their work is done from the back lines anyway, specially when the ranged staves start to show up. maybe in a game without physic the difference would be noteworthy?

Edited January 4, 2015 by Axie

[Gradivus.]

thats technically right, but actually, if you give all mounts -1 move, it would bring a negative imbalance, as your boots recipient (percy / miledy) has stellar movement and the other ones have just barely more than heroes and swordmasters, and aren't mounts supposed to have exceptional mov? it would actually kill a part of what a mounted unit is. also, 7 mov dragon lord!miledy would actually still be solid, considering enemy dragon lords would have lowered mov too. so yeah, -1 mov mounts wouldn't solve any problems.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Gradivus.

[Psych]

They'll only be 1 tile shorter. They will still have rescue utility, dual weapon types at base, and canto to their name.

Edit: The difference is awesomeness between the cleric and the troubadour is dependent on how much quicker you get the troub compared to the cleric.

In FE7 you get Serra and Priscilla in the same chapter. It's pretty clear that Serra gets da bench. In Awakening, Maribelle comes quick enough that her 7 Mov eclipses Lissa. She'll also get a more useful skill in the form of Demoiselle and her lower magic is easy o fix via pair up.

But Moulder > L'Arachel because L'Arachel comes super late relative to your first clerics.

In FE4, Troubadours could actually fight but there staffery was not on par with the dedicates clerics so they both had a spot on the team.

Serra has 3 chapters over Priscilla in Hector Mode, and 2 in Eliwood mode, not to mention any Lyn mode levels or exp you might get her. I would say Priscilla has slightly better combat once promoted though but it usually doesn't turn out that way for me.

And if you're healing thoroughly you can honestly get Lissa to probably level 10 or at least 8 by the time you get Maribelle since Awakening is easy to get healer exp in.

[Nicolas]

1 title is damn huge difference.

[super45]

I have an idea which might help right the imbalance between the classes and also add an extra layer of strategy by making units perform best in certain situations. This is just an idea- I'm not sure if it would work.

To help balance and improve Knights, my idea is momentum as a combat mechanic. What this means is that units gain combat bonuses depending on how much they have or haven't moved. The class will change the modifiers the unit gets. For my example I'll be using the Recruit Tree. A cavalier, with a move of six, would gain or lose nothing if it attacks an enemy after moving three tiles. However, it would have a speed and hit increase if it had moved the full six, and if it had not moved or had been attacked in the enemy turn would lose speed. The Knight, on the other hand, would lose hit if it had moved, but at the same time benefit in skill, hit or maybe defence if it had been attacked in the enemy turn. These would not apply to ranged attack. What this means is that variety of classes is now more important, as certain roles are fulfilled best with certain classes. Your mounted units are no longer as effective at holding chokepoints, but better at moving out and attacking. Each class would perform differently to the other not just in stats. Your Paladins would be best at charging forward and killing lone enemies, your Generals best at holding the line against hordes of foes, and foot units like Heroes would be made better by being more versatile- they can't defend like Armour Knights or attack like Cavaliers, but they can do both and not suffer.

My other idea for improving Armour Knights would be to have them benefit more from terrain bonuses.

[dondon151]

By positive feedback you mean how a unit getting strong means they can kill more enemies and thus get stronger, right?

Thracia's low stat caps and fatigue system was an interesting way to mitigate that issue, although the stat caps don't really mean much until the real late game (and arguably not even then, although the Hell tomes are a different story). And while Fatigue made it so you couldn't simply rely on one unit, basically anyone you invest resources into in that game will get gud pretty fast.

More recent FEs have also actively fought against this in their hardest difficulties. I haven't played FE12 but in FESD H5 you're not apt to have a unit who can reliably do much on their own until well into the game. Coincidentally turning Wolfgar into double generals is a pretty effective albeit slow strategy for getting through that game (it's what I did at least) so that ties into the original topic of making armored units more useful.

FE13 Lunatic+ also effectively stops you from soloing the game with one unit, even though units in that game can pretty quickly get super OP. In fact people rag on the skills for being bullshit fake difficulty but really they simply force you to use strategies beyond "Get X unit OP, skip enemy phase" (this may be why people don't like it). Each and every skill in that game has a clear counter strategy and each is designed to counter a specific strategy as well.

Aegis+ and Pavise+: Counters reliance on one unit - Countered by using a mix of units or strong pair-up partner

Luna+: Counters tanking - Countered by dodgetanking

Hawkeye: Counters dodgetanking - Countered by tanking

Pass: Counters turtling and reliance on enemy phase combat - Countered by ally phase combat

Counter: Counters reliance on one unit and enemy phase combat - Countered by ally phase combat (and Archers!)

Even by endgame, unless you're simply Galeforks one-turn cheesing every chapter (in which case why play), no superunit your hard work has crafted can singlehandedly counter all these skills. Using a diverse team with different weapon types and classes thus actually improves your ability to beat the game, something you can't really say about any other FE.

i don't agree that any of these mechanical flavors really fixed the positive feedback problem. stat caps may have been low in FE5, but as you mentioned, they still didn't matter until the last 1/3 of the game or so. units who start out poorly still have to dig themselves out of a hole, usually with a lot of favoritism, whereas units who start out well don't need any favoritism and still end up better than the competition due to innate factors such as skills, mov, supports, PCC, prf weapons, etc.

fatigue was also not a big deal in FE5, and it only substantially affected staff users and lara. it addressed the single-juggernaut problem, but not the positive feedback problem.

on FE11: the positive feedback problem still exists. units such as caeda and hardin start out much better and stay much better than alternatives such as matthis and roshe. the condition to be a good unit was to have at least C rank lances as a cavalier, so good units (the ones who could use a ridersbane) stayed good by OHKOing cavaliers for EXP and bad units (the one who couldn't use a ridersbane) fell deeper into a hole because their offensive ability was nonexistent.

i haven't played FE13, but my impression is that players don't like lunatic+ because the skill assignments are random and not necessarily because the skills exist.

[Snowy_One]

Fliers would retain their dominance. Bow weakness hasn't stopped them yet.

But it is at least a weakness and the peggies and wyverns at least have a somewhat-defined strength and failing where-as the paladin is just generally all-around great.

[Gradivus.]

if bow weakness that can be negated with delphi / iote shield is a weakness, then how is horseslayer not supposed to be a weakness? and I don't recall having bad str on my dracoknights (sirius, miledy and palla) either, so far only on the fe6 pegasus knights really.

Edited January 5, 2015 by Gradivus.

[Jotari]

I suppose Horseslayer is one weapon (though in some games each weapon type has access to a variation) while Bows are an entire weapon type with a distinct class that uses them which can be seen as a counter pick.

[eclipse]

i haven't played FE13, but my impression is that players don't like lunatic+ because the skill assignments are random and not necessarily because the skills exist.

Somewhat. From this list (which is missing Vantage+):

Aegis+ and Pavise+: Counters reliance on one unit - Countered by using a mix of units or strong pair-up partner

Luna+: Counters tanking - Countered by dodgetanking

Hawkeye: Counters dodgetanking - Countered by tanking

Pass: Counters turtling and reliance on enemy phase combat - Countered by ally phase combat

Counter: Counters reliance on one unit and enemy phase combat - Countered by ally phase combat (and Archers!)

Let's say you run into something with Luna+ and Hawkeye (it happens). You either have to actively avoid being in range of the enemy, or make sure that whatever unit that takes the hit can survive it. It's not cool when it happens on a small map (hello Chapter 4).

It forces strategy on the fly, but due to its random nature, it doesn't balance the game out IMO - one mistake means that you'll need to redo your strategy (or in some cases, reset again, because the skill distribution is nigh-impossible to deal with early on).

[General Banzai]

Somewhat. From this list (which is missing Vantage+):

Let's say you run into something with Luna+ and Hawkeye (it happens). You either have to actively avoid being in range of the enemy, or make sure that whatever unit that takes the hit can survive it. It's not cool when it happens on a small map (hello Chapter 4).

It forces strategy on the fly, but due to its random nature, it doesn't balance the game out IMO - one mistake means that you'll need to redo your strategy (or in some cases, reset again, because the skill distribution is nigh-impossible to deal with early on).

The strategy against an enemy like that is to take them out on player phase. Even if it's a ranged enemy, you can still heal them before enemy phase.

I knew I was forgetting one. Vantage+ counters player phase combat and is countered (kinda) by enemy phase combat. But it's still another skill that causes you to adapt your strategy and be flexible rather than finding a niche that works and exploiting it to hellfuck.

In my experience the randomness is rarely a problem, even in early game.

[dondon151]

In my experience the randomness is rarely a problem, even in early game.

i suppose what i meant is that LTCers and their ilk dislike the skill randomness because some skill distributions cannot be cleared as efficiently or as reliably as other skill distributions. when randomness exists, one always-available option is resetting until a more favorable skill distribution shows up.

it would be like if a random enemy on every FE11 H5 map had a +6 MT, +30 hit forged ridersbane. if i had to deal with that kind of bullshit in every fire emblem game, i just wouldn't play fire emblem. huge enemy stat variance is already enough of a problem in games like FE5.

Edited January 5, 2015 by dondon151

[eclipse]

The strategy against an enemy like that is to take them out on player phase. Even if it's a ranged enemy, you can still heal them before enemy phase.

I knew I was forgetting one. Vantage+ counters player phase combat and is countered (kinda) by enemy phase combat. But it's still another skill that causes you to adapt your strategy and be flexible rather than finding a niche that works and exploiting it to hellfuck.

In my experience the randomness is rarely a problem, even in early game.

The skill randomization IS a huge problem, early on. Did that one enemy with the Hammer in Chapter 1 spawn with both Luna+ and Hawkeye? Congratulations, Frederick will be OHKO'd, and whether or not you can safely kill that enemy depends on what those archers spawned with, too (let's hope it's Vantage+). Kite the enemies? You mean on a map where it's mostly forest, and you have half the map at your disposal? That's the sort of situations that crop up, and handwaving it with "better strategy" isn't always possible. Did you get a good enemy skill set, but Robin's levels weren't Magic or Speed? I hope you don't mind replaying the map, because a screwed Robin will make things difficult later on. I like the fact that there's a mode where things are randomized, but I feel that there should've been more tools to deal with them in the early parts of the game.

Now, if you think you can somehow do a better job than this, then feel free to do so.

[General Banzai]

i suppose what i meant is that LTCers and their ilk dislike the skill randomness because some skill distributions cannot be cleared as efficiently or as reliably as other skill distributions. when randomness exists, one always-available option is resetting until a more favorable skill distribution shows up.

it would be like if a random enemy on every FE11 H5 map had a +6 MT, +30 hit forged ridersbane. if i had to deal with that kind of bullshit in every fire emblem game, i just wouldn't play fire emblem. huge enemy stat variance is already enough of a problem in games like FE5.

In LTC, mounted units (and staff users) will always be superior to other units no matter what, rendering it kind of pointless for this this particular discussion.

The skill randomization IS a huge problem, early on. Did that one enemy with the Hammer in Chapter 1 spawn with both Luna+ and Hawkeye? Congratulations, Frederick will be OHKO'd, and whether or not you can safely kill that enemy depends on what those archers spawned with, too (let's hope it's Vantage+). Kite the enemies? You mean on a map where it's mostly forest, and you have half the map at your disposal? That's the sort of situations that crop up, and handwaving it with "better strategy" isn't always possible. Did you get a good enemy skill set, but Robin's levels weren't Magic or Speed? I hope you don't mind replaying the map, because a screwed Robin will make things difficult later on. I like the fact that there's a mode where things are randomized, but I feel that there should've been more tools to deal with them in the early parts of the game.

I didn't say never a problem, I said rarely a problem. You've named what's probably the only possible skill/enemy combination that makes the game impossible. But those are not common, and getting that specific enemy to have that specific skill combination is what, 5 or 10%? If it has either skill and not the other, it can be dealt with.

A screwed Robin is definitely not something worth restarting and can be easily dealt with. I had a Robin that had 26 speed at 20/20/20/5 in my Luna+ run but it didn't matter because I had other units who could pick up the combat slack (namely Nowi and Henry).

[eclipse]

I didn't say never a problem, I said rarely a problem. You've named what's probably the only possible skill/enemy combination that makes the game impossible. But those are not common, and getting that specific enemy to have that specific skill combination is what, 5 or 10%? If it has either skill and not the other, it can be dealt with.

A screwed Robin is definitely not something worth restarting and can be easily dealt with. I had a Robin that had 26 speed at 20/20/20/5 in my Luna+ run but it didn't matter because I had other units who could pick up the combat slack (namely Nowi and Henry).

If you read what I linked, the odds of getting a favorable skill combo for that strategy is 36%. Granted, there's probably other (more headache-inducing) ways of dealing with that map, but that doesn't qualify as "hardly".

Furthermore, the screwage affects early game strategies, before you get access to things like Renown stat boosters. You'll need to reliably kill things when you want them to - if you're 1 HP short of killing something with Vantage+ because Robin had 6 Magic instead of 7, you need to divert more resources to getting rid of that unit, which means one less enemy that can be weakened/killed (and possibly eating another attack).

Once you have access to the wireless menu, I think things get more manageable (guess who decided that she had better things to do with her time than reset Chapter 3?).

[General Banzai]

If you read what I linked, the odds of getting a favorable skill combo for that strategy is 36%. Granted, there's probably other (more headache-inducing) ways of dealing with that map, but that doesn't qualify as "hardly".

Furthermore, the screwage affects early game strategies, before you get access to things like Renown stat boosters. You'll need to reliably kill things when you want them to - if you're 1 HP short of killing something with Vantage+ because Robin had 6 Magic instead of 7, you need to divert more resources to getting rid of that unit, which means one less enemy that can be weakened/killed (and possibly eating another attack).

Once you have access to the wireless menu, I think things get more manageable (guess who decided that she had better things to do with her time than reset Chapter 3?).

I dunno, I didn't have particular trouble with Ch 3 personally. I also didn't use any of the wireless stuff, so I don't see the need for that either.

The only chapters I found particularly difficult were Ch 5 and 6.

[Kysafen]

things such as redesigning the structure of the map,

Designing a level? For GAMEPLAY purposes?

putting Maria in unWarp-able terrain,

Roofed door surrounded by units that'd be guaranteed to kill any thief/keyholder that'd warp straight to the door. Problem solved.

having the AI or reinforcements change based on the movement of your units might help to stop Warp from being a dominant strategy.

IF Warpswitch=1

THEN

H5 Reinforcementswitch=1

I'd agree with that, but I don't think it changes my point. FE's flexible self imposed difficulty is a huge element of it's design but if you go too far even masochists like me want to just say screw it and make it easier.

I mean, even presupposing I don't just warpskip the map, I may just opt to warp some units around for convenience. This already greatly simplifies things. Maps like H5 wooden cavalry are a good example.

Oh, someone actually playing in that gameplay scenario would mean you'd be playing a hack of Shadow Dragon to make all of its levels harder through enemy placement. Can you imagine?

Seriously though, has anyone made any enemy placement modules for every chapter in Shadow Dragon?

Edited January 5, 2015 by Kysafen

[Ownagepuffs]

But it is at least a weakness and the peggies and wyverns at least have a somewhat-defined strength and failing where-as the paladin is just generally all-around great.

I've a feeling that's because if fliers didn't have a bow weakness, some would be even more overpowered that the mounts.

Serra has 3 chapters over Priscilla in Hector Mode, and 2 in Eliwood mode, not to mention any Lyn mode levels or exp you might get her. I would say Priscilla has slightly better combat once promoted though but it usually doesn't turn out that way for me.

And if you're healing thoroughly you can honestly get Lissa to probably level 10 or at least 8 by the time you get Maribelle since Awakening is easy to get healer exp in.

Yeah sorry I must be high I was thinking of Erk. Look it's been a long time since I've played that chapter leave me alone >_>. Anyway, Priscilla is mounted in Paladin Emblem. That alone kind of makes her the better choice. I don't think either one should really fight post promotion.

In Lissa's case, staff rank isn't important in FE13 because the best staff (rescue) is E rank and you only really need to hit C rank so you can use Physic. Maribelle has like D rank at base so she'll be fine. If FE13 had cool shit like sleep warp and berserk then Lissa's higher staff rank would mean something.