How to make Armor Knights more valuable?

[Chloe Neo]

They could add a skill to them in which they can use swords, axes, lances and bows also giving them a higher speed cap.

[Dunal]

It's all based around map design TBH.

Imagine a game where all maps were like FE7's CH13x -- where the enemies are also powerful. Armor knights would be godly.

That's all there is to it. FE just needs more of those kinds of maps. Smaller / More enclosed defense maps tend to be some of the most enjoyable anyway.

I don't think giving them decent Speed/Res is out of the question either. Their defining feature should be low movement, not stats - just specialized in defense.

It's the same with archers. Give them actually decent stats and they're more or less fine. They just suck in most games (Just look at Leonardo -- if he had better STR and SPD he'd be straight up good). Adding frequent/tougher flying enemies doesn't hurt too.

Edited December 24, 2014 by DLuna

[dondon151]

It's all based around map design TBH.

Imagine a game where all maps were like FE7's CH13x -- where the enemies are also powerful. Armor knights would be godly.

so... a map where marcus can rambo through every enemy?

[Axie]

isn't that every map in fe7 until, like, cog of destiny though

[Dunal]

so... a map where marcus can rambo through every enemy?

I don't see your point here when there's literally nothing you can do to stop that regardless of 'map design'. Every enemy has horseslayers? 'Where the enemies are also powerful' refers to if... That's actually the case. Which it can arguably be if you seldom use Marcus (Or assume for a second that Marcus is brought down to Jeigan like levels and enemies are a bit tougher). At least it shows Oswin can be good.

Besides, the actual map and enemy placements/AI is far more important than the stats. That's a secondary design point and something easily tweaked, both for allies and enemies alike. Tune that correctly against a good map and there you have it -- good design.

I mean take FE6 vs. FE7. FE7 has far better/more interesting map design which shouldn't discredited just because it's more easily powerhoused. And I've seen quite a few people argue FE6 is better in this regard just because it's harder. Which is completely unrelated reasons to the core map design.

Some are far better than others though. FE7's CH17 is almost as dull as FE6's CH8. Not quite as needlessly lengthy. But almost. It's pretty darn hard to design an actually interesting siege map (that's big in scope) though. I don't think rout objectives are ever good design either unless the map is quite small.

Edited December 27, 2014 by DLuna

[X-Naut]

I don't see your point here when there's literally nothing you can do to stop that regardless of 'map design'.

An experience curve that punishes Jeigan spam and a steeper enemy power curve?

[Refa]

You could just...not have Marcus if that was your goal. What a novel concept.

[Dunal]

An experience curve that punishes Jeigan spam and a steeper enemy power curve?

That falls under the category of 'stats' which is what I mentioned a little further into that post...

But in any case, you only expanded upon my point.

[dondon151]

I don't see your point here when there's literally nothing you can do to stop that regardless of 'map design'.

the point was that a defense map design doesn't address the issue of strong individual units. you more or less acknowledged that point and then denied that that was a problem with map design.

every defense map can be trivialized either by overwhelming offense or immobile defense. FE5 chapter 14 is often cited as the apotheosis of defense map design, but the player only needs to choke 3 points indefinitely and he wins. with FE7 chapter 13x the player actually only needs to choke 1 point indefinitely, and that unit can be anyone that survives a single round of combat. eliwood can choke that point.

I mean take FE6 vs. FE7. FE7 has far better/more interesting map design which shouldn't discredited just because it's more easily powerhoused. And I've seen quite a few people argue FE6 is better in this regard just because it's harder. Which is completely unrelated reasons to the core map design.

FE7 has poor map design in general. it has a couple of maps that can be 1-turned, it has really easy and pointless defense maps, it has genesis, and it has battle before dawn. genesis is just a nightmare with enemies whom the player isn't properly equipped to deal with, and battle before dawn can be forfeit without regard to what the player does. cog of destiny is also pretty badly designed because mobile status staves are just the worst things ever. the berserker limits the player to 2 unit slots.

Edited December 28, 2014 by dondon151

[Klokinator]

I don't see your point here when there's literally nothing you can do to stop that regardless of 'map design'.

It's funny, I could swear I pulled that off in my own hack. Oswin is your pre-promote, and he's not able to solo the enemy army ever, but he still manages to outmatch your other units for the first third of the hack.

"can't" is just another word for "won't put real effort towards"

Edited December 28, 2014 by Klokinator

[Dunal]

It's funny, I could swear I pulled that off in my own hack. Oswin is your pre-promote, and he's not able to solo the enemy army ever, but he still manages to outmatch your other units for the first third of the hack.

"can't" is just another word for "won't put real effort towards"

You're talking about stats...

Map design, with the context I'm using, isn't about stats. I've been through this.

FE7's maps are generally better designed because it doesn't have map design that needlessly drags on -- with some exceptions. FE6 having sometimes ridiculously long + linear maps so you can't 1-turn it isn't good design. FE7 has more interesting objectives + nuances -- it's just flawed because it can be power-housed which does distract from its good aspects.

There are many ways to avoid maps being 1-turned. And that can come down to stats/balance.

Point is, FE7 actually made an attempt to have interesting/good design (or at least interesting). Was the execution good enough when taking into account balance/statistics? Probably not, but that's not the point.

Maps such as 13x are... modest? They are breakable because lolMarcus, and enemies aren't aggressive/strong enough from every angle, but from a design standpoint (especially from the perspective of a non-experienced player) it's much much better than most of what FE6 offers. The boss is optional, the village has a time limit (not a difficult one at all, but again -- it's the principle that counts) and strategically there are different ways to play it. The map is the epitome of 'less is more' and the reason I say defend maps tend to be stronger design is because you can actually inflate stats and not make it tedious as a result, because the entire point is surviving while having alternative/optional objectives. Enemy AI can also be better orchestrated as well.

And ultimately, classes like Knights are better off with them existing. That's a bonus.

FE6's CH8 isn't good because you can't "1 turn it". It's absolutely terrible. And adding more enemies and making them harder... doesn't do a thing to help that.

And as far as skipping maps go, there are mechanics to add which can penalize that greatly. I can't remember how strict FE7's EXP and fund ranks are but those are possibly one of them. And basing map design over low turn counts doesn't really seem fair on the design principles of the map -- because often times the purpose of doing it in the first place (and being actually beneficial) can come down to a bad difficulty curve where EXP doesn't matter at all (Almost all FE games -- because let's face it, lategame stat inflation is usually pathetic, with units like Percival making anything a joke).

Surprisingly I'd say one of the stronger maps in FE6 is CH14 (the desert map). You can tread slowly. You can rush it / LTC it. You can grab the extra loot. There are optional bosses. There are "danger" points with the mamkutes. Fog makes enemies unpredictable and you have to play around it. You are encouraged to spread out your team rather than the opposite to actually get things done.

The desert terrain is its downfall but even regarding that it's still one of the better maps IMO. =p

Honestly I just don't think FE as a whole rewards loot/EXP enough as it should. That really shouldn't be used a basis to why smaller/more skippable maps are bad. But then, that's siege maps for ya.

I understand defense maps can quite easily be turtled (which hey -- makes armor knights really good for that purpose alone) but with optional objectives and smart enemy AI -- have the potential to be the best maps in the series.

Whoa, that was long. I'm not against debating this kind of stuff though. I find it more interesting if people disagree.

[Baldrick]

I don't think stat inflation alone makes for a good defence map. You'd just have a map like Chapter 14 Thracia, except instead of turtling being a strategy to cheese the chapter, it becomes the only good strategy.

A defence map should give you some incentive to move forward, but tough enough enemies and constant reinforcements such that you cannot power through them. For a crude example, imagine a map divided into 10 segments, your army starting in 1 and the enemy commander in segment 10. Each turn, the game checks whether you have a unit in segment 10, then segment 9, etc. For each segment you're in, it loads a couple of strong melee enemies, for each one you're not in, it loads a Bolting Sage. If you're aggressive in your movement, you'll have to deal with more enemies, if you're more passive, you risk being overwhelmed by siege attackers.

[Jotari]

FE5 chapter 14 is often cited as the apotheosis of defense map design huh? Personally I found that to be one of the least interesting (among the easier) maps in the game. Whenever I think defense maps Radiant Dawns 3-13 is that comes to my mind. The enemy's are strong and numerous. It gives you an additional victory goal. There are some choke points but flying enemies ensure you can't get by just defending them. And towards the end it gets gradually more intense as the other Greil Mercenaries show up and Ike starts moving. The only downside that I can think of is that killing Ike might be too easy an objective as I know people have managed it on the first or second turn on 0% growths but I don't think many first time or novice players would be storming through the map on their first try so maybe that's a good thing. Of course Radiant Dawn was the first in the series I played so it could stand out in my mind for that reason too.

[Dunal]

I don't think stat inflation alone makes for a good defence map. You'd just have a map like Chapter 14 Thracia, except instead of turtling being a strategy to cheese the chapter, it becomes the only good strategy.

A defence map should give you some incentive to move forward, but tough enough enemies and constant reinforcements such that you cannot power through them. For a crude example, imagine a map divided into 10 segments, your army starting in 1 and the enemy commander in segment 10. Each turn, the game checks whether you have a unit in segment 10, then segment 9, etc. For each segment you're in, it loads a couple of strong melee enemies, for each one you're not in, it loads a Bolting Sage. If you're aggressive in your movement, you'll have to deal with more enemies, if you're more passive, you risk being overwhelmed by siege attackers.

Well yeah, defense maps work best with additional objectives to go for. And you lose out if you play too defensively and cannot achieve them.

What I meant by inflation is that naturally, defense maps allow you to actually make use of things like Armor Knights without making them redundant in favor of other units that are tanky enough. Enemies can be strong so holding the line is actually a thing.

But I don't think that concept works alone for a map, you need to mix it up with alternative objectives to strive for. Unless the enemy AI / reinforcements add some curve balls for you to deal with.

You could even make it so within your own base you need to defend, your allies won't suffer from permadeath and the thing you need to defend is ACTUALLY under threat. By nearing the end, you're down to your last few units and there's a couple turns left... It adds some intensity.

Like I said, I thin kthere's a lot you can do with enemy AI / placement on defense maps to make the actual defending interesting. Have breakable walls... flying units on the later turns... Have some kind of build up rather than repetitiveness.

FE7's CH13x has its flaws, but it's concept (defend with the balance to go for other objectives) has far more potential than long siege maps.

Edited December 31, 2014 by DLuna

[Rehab]

Since their stat spreads don't tend to be that good even at base, I'd hazard an uninformed guess that balance wouldn't be hurt too bad by just giving them their extra move (all other sorts of appropriate balance minutiae notwithstanding)

Not that it matters to the people making FE, given it tends to have a certain kind of anime/video game stylistic take on European middle-ages armaments, but the kinds of plate armor that saw wide battlefield use ain't even that heavy, shit probably wouldn't have been practical, esp. not for the hundreds of years stuff like it was used

Making sure they hang on to their niche (or what's supposed to be their niche) might be a little different from just buffing them up to a fair starting point, though.

I still like this concept of a class skill I had for them, where maybe if they used something less than all of their movement in a turn, then they could activate a stance, "hold the line" or something, where they would force any melee enemy walking within a space of them while doing something other than going to attack the knight themselves into a battle phase, possibly giving the knight Vantage for it, depending. A little like some attack of opportunity situations in Dungeons & Dragons etc. If they land a hit on the enemy, maybe it could either get pushed back a space, or just have its turn end next to the knight. Or, pending balance evaluations/stat calculation whatevers (like the enemy meeting a certain threshold of more speed/less Con than the knight), maybe the free swipe at an enemy would be plenty. (so basically just an attack of opportunity, then)

Edited December 31, 2014 by Rehab

[dondon151]

FE5 chapter 14 is often cited as the apotheosis of defense map design huh? Personally I found that to be one of the least interesting (among the easier) maps in the game. Whenever I think defense maps Radiant Dawns 3-13 is that comes to my mind. The enemy's are strong and numerous. It gives you an additional victory goal. There are some choke points but flying enemies ensure you can't get by just defending them. And towards the end it gets gradually more intense as the other Greil Mercenaries show up and Ike starts moving. The only downside that I can think of is that killing Ike might be too easy an objective as I know people have managed it on the first or second turn on 0% growths but I don't think many first time or novice players would be storming through the map on their first try so maybe that's a good thing. Of course Radiant Dawn was the first in the series I played so it could stand out in my mind for that reason too.

chapter 3-13 is more easily cleared by killing ike with growths than without growths.

FE7's maps are generally better designed because it doesn't have map design that needlessly drags on -- with some exceptions. FE6 having sometimes ridiculously long + linear maps so you can't 1-turn it isn't good design. FE7 has more interesting objectives + nuances -- it's just flawed because it can be power-housed which does distract from its good aspects.

the only "needlessly long + linear map" in FE6 is chapter 8, and maybe chapter 24 if you don't get boots at the secret shop.

Edited December 31, 2014 by dondon151

[LeaderR Elliot]

Relevant image chapter14 of thracia taken from gmefaqs

[spoiler=FE5 whatisthis.jpg]

Also I consider map design to include terrain, objectives and sub-objectives, unit deployment slots and unit availability, unit stats+positioning+equipment+enemy reinforcements.

Sometimes the effort put on a single chapter can go unnoticed.

[Nicolas]

Relevant image chapter14 of thracia taken from gmefaqs

[spoiler=FE5 whatisthis.jpg]

Also I consider map design to include terrain, objectives and sub-objectives, unit deployment slots and unit availability, unit stats+positioning+equipment+enemy reinforcements.

Sometimes the effort put on a single chapter can go unnoticed.

Guy who made this image is bad at this game. I never have problem with this chapter. At this point you should have so much useful weapons (like Fire sword, earth sword, wind, brave sword, brave axe, hammer) that I have never had problem with this chapter, even before I saw dondon post how to make this chapter even easier.

And you also have Fin with his brave Lance, and he's that guy who can go super aggressive with his prayer.

Edited December 31, 2014 by Nicolas

[Dunal]

chapter 3-13 is more easily cleared by killing ike with growths than without growths.

the only "needlessly long + linear map" in FE6 is chapter 8, and maybe chapter 24 if you don't get boots at the secret shop.

8x if you don't rescue skip it for example. And there's a whole lot of "Pile up your team on a one way road to the boss unless you rescue skip".

A lot of the maps are just linear pathways to a siege objective though with maybe a secondary route to get there. Maybe not 'needlessly long', but certainly linear.

CH 3, CH 9, CH 11b, CH 12, CH 13 (optimal bottom path?), CH 14x (Not a huge map, but follows the same pathing), CH 15, CH 16 etc...

A huge amount of the maps are just one way roads to a boss. You either rescue skip or suffer a lot of them. There isn't many interesting objectives at play. At least say, CH 5 has the option of skipping the long easy path like all the other maps have.

I just really dislike maps where if you have any sizeable team, you just pile them up down a road. Unless you're using only mounted units with sizeable stats who can rush through regardless.

FE7 is guilty of doing this occasionally too, and well -- any FE really. There's just far better ways to design a map, and I'll still say that even the most basic defend map is better than a large siege map of any real kind, unless you make it really open ended with timed objectives perhaps including the siege itself.

Maybe it's because FE6's maps are so samey. Maps like CH 12 are alright by themselves (at least it kinda has a time limit) it's just when there's no variety to it. While FE7 has maps like CH 13x and CH 18

to break the monotony.

[LeaderR Elliot]

Guy who made this image is bad at this game. I never have problem with this chapter. At this point you should have so much useful weapons (like Fire sword, earth sword, wind, brave sword, brave axe, hammer) that I have never had problem with this chapter, even before I saw dondon post how to make this chapter even easier.

And you also have Fin with his brave Lance, and he's that guy who can go super aggressive with his prayer.

Sure you can call all thracia, H5 FE11, H4 FE12 easy too. We all can number the amount of resources and OP units you have at the game but you have to reset a lot in any of those and I admire you if you can still say it was "2easy".

Thing with this chapter: Is a simple defend 10 turns. On every side from turn 1 to 6, 4 units appear each turn 24 units per side, 23 initial armor knights enemies, bosses with master weapons, 3 psychic/libro assholes, 4 ballista that one shot every flier that try to approach with not iffy 75 base accuracy and cover each other range, trolll dark mages reinforcements at turn 9. The dragon lance and boss trolling the players.

Sure the chapter can be played really safe and beaten but you have to suffer for the good stuff. And even then you get overwhelmed by sheer amount of frustration for 10 turns straight.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

I regret seeing that other image of Chapter 14

Involving Finn having gay sex with his homoerotic boyfriend Glade in front of 90 Armor Knights. Or something. That shit trivialized the chapter so much it hurst

[Snowy_One]

Dunno how relevant this is but a while back I suggested a skill called 'Rolling Stone'. It basically works like this.

Rolling stone allows an Armor Knight to switch between two modes. The first mode is pretty straight-forwards in that it allows the armor-knight to use 50% of their defense as attack power. So a Knight with 10 Strength and 10 DEF would effectively have 15 strength in this mode.

The second mode, however, makes it so that, for every attack that the armor-knight takes, they gain +2 AS for the next two turns (dodges don't count).

The idea is that you want to stick an armor knight in the second mode until they get a sizable amount of speed then have them rush out and, well, destroy everything like a rolling stone, but they need to keep on taking attacks or else they lose their momentum. This way, aside from the obvious +1 movement, they can remain at the exact same general stat-build but be viable without directly affecting other classes. Sure, they might be strong and pretty fast once things get going, and this would make them exceptional at holding a chokepoint, but if they ever stopped fighting they'd be back down stuck with just their base strength and likely not doubling anything.

[dondon151]

A lot of the maps are just linear pathways to a siege objective though with maybe a secondary route to get there. Maybe not 'needlessly long', but certainly linear.

if FE4's popularity were anything to go by, i could assert that "linear pathways to a siege [sic] objective" are what make FE worth playing.

but they are not just that. the intricacies of a seize map become apparent once you step out of your comfort zone and do more than move an average of 4 tiles per turn across the map. you could ask me about any chapter in FE6 and i'll tell you everything about the chapter that gave me a hard time (but you don't have to because my playthrough is commentated). FE has the problem where there's almost always a really easy way to clear a map, usually by turtling. it just so happens that the easiest way to clear defense maps also requires the least amount of effort.

Sure the chapter can be played really safe and beaten but you have to suffer for the good stuff. And even then you get overwhelmed by sheer amount of frustration for 10 turns straight.

dean can fly behind enemy lines and grab the resire house, then camp out in the bottom right corner of the map for the rest of the chapter. you basically miss the dragon lance and capturing the boss, but dean doesn't need the dragon lance and the boss's equipment isn't even that good.

I regret seeing that other image of Chapter 14

Involving Finn having gay sex with his homoerotic boyfriend Glade in front of 90 Armor Knights. Or something. That shit trivialized the chapter so much it hurst

it was a threesome with fred

[General Banzai]

tahra's cheesability doesn't take away from that classic image of fire emblem humor

also if you're playing the game for umpteenth time what's the fun in cheesing it like seriously

why even pick it up

Edited January 1, 2015 by General Banzai

[Klokinator]

Dunno how relevant this is but a while back I suggested a skill called 'Rolling Stone'. It basically works like this.

Rolling stone allows an Armor Knight to switch between two modes. The first mode is pretty straight-forwards in that it allows the armor-knight to use 50% of their defense as attack power. So a Knight with 10 Strength and 10 DEF would effectively have 15 strength in this mode.

The second mode, however, makes it so that, for every attack that the armor-knight takes, they gain +2 AS for the next two turns (dodges don't count).

The idea is that you want to stick an armor knight in the second mode until they get a sizable amount of speed then have them rush out and, well, destroy everything like a rolling stone, but they need to keep on taking attacks or else they lose their momentum. This way, aside from the obvious +1 movement, they can remain at the exact same general stat-build but be viable without directly affecting other classes. Sure, they might be strong and pretty fast once things get going, and this would make them exceptional at holding a chokepoint, but if they ever stopped fighting they'd be back down stuck with just their base strength and likely not doubling anything.

/makes a note