Sydney Siege

[BBM]

Looking at all the reports about this guy it's just like... how was he even out on the streets? He was charged on something like 40 cases of sexual assault and was being implicated in the murder of his wife and had publicly taken credit for really vile hate mail sent to the families of dead soldiers. Why on earth was he granted bail? And not to mention that he was originally an Iranian refugee so there were probably grounds for deporting him just based on the hate mail.

[Parrhesia]

Most complete account I can find.

[Naughx]

This Sydney shooting is a tragedy and, if ISIS has any intelligence, they will disavow any association with this man as I, somehow, doubt that holding up a coffee shop is the great will of Allah.

I doubt it, Da'ash/IS just wants power... (To establish a caliphate over the whole middle east)

It's more about power than religion... Faith is just a mean to achieve this.

Edited December 16, 2014 by Naughx

[Tryhard]

Also, I'm not ignorant about Islam. Many members of my family are Muslims, I've lived in a Muslim-majority country for over a dozen years and I've read the Quran, along with studying it in some religion courses. I'm pretty sure I know more about Islam than anyone else here! But I apologize if I've offended any Muslims like Nightmare. I know from first-hand experience (aka some of my family) that most Muslims are perfectly peaceful people. I made that very clear in my post, but for some reason people got offended anyway.

I am also perfectly willing to discuss my reasoning behind comparing Nazism to Islam. You may PM me if you want to hear more details or make a thread in the serious discussion section about it.

It's not big enough to PM you about it, but I would like you to report what the response is to telling whatever family member of yours who is available that is a Muslim, that Islam is comparable to Nazism like you said earlier in this thread. I am quite curious of this. Because I doubt you will get a positive response.

Looking at all the reports about this guy it's just like... how was he even out on the streets? He was charged on something like 40 cases of sexual assault and was being implicated in the murder of his wife and had publicly taken credit for really vile hate mail sent to the families of dead soldiers. Why on earth was he granted bail? And not to mention that he was originally an Iranian refugee so there were probably grounds for deporting him just based on the hate mail.

It really is somewhat of a mystery and there was more than several missteps allowing this guy to be out at all.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Tryhard

[dondon151]

It's not big enough to PM you about it, but I would like you to report what the response is to telling whatever family member of yours who is available that is a Muslim, that Islam is comparable to Nazism like you said earlier in this thread. I am quite curious of this. Because I doubt you will get a positive response.

if you told a north korean that juche was comparable to nazism, you wouldn't get a positive response either. does this mean that juche is above reproach?

people don't like negative feedback.

Edited December 18, 2014 by dondon151

[Chiki]

It's not big enough to PM you about it, but I would like you to report what the response is to telling whatever family member of yours who is available that is a Muslim, that Islam is comparable to Nazism like you said earlier in this thread.

Well, my family members wouldn't mind, I've said a lot of worse stuff (yes, even worse than Islam=Nazism) to them about their beliefs. Fortunately I have a really modern and open-minded family.

I have to admit though, I know better than to say stuff like this in real life in front of people like Nightmare. I would get attacked and maybe even murdered! People have been on the news for getting attacked for a lot less (going to a bar during Ramadan, my mom and her friends got called out in public for eating pizza during Ramadan, etc.). I know from real life experience that Muslims in particular are EXTREMELY sensitive about their religion, and from events on the news like gangs of Muslims attacking embassies simply for defending free speech.

I doubt it, Da'ash/IS just wants power... (To establish a caliphate over the whole middle east)

It's more about power than religion... Faith is just a mean to achieve this.

Proof? You can't read the minds of ISIS fighters. Go to 14:35. They even sing about how they want to become martyrs to meet beautiful virgins.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Chiki

[Rapier]

I doubt it, Da'ash/IS just wants power... (To establish a caliphate over the whole middle east)

It's more about power than religion... Faith is just a mean to achieve this.

If faith is a mean to achieve power, as they said, then we can't ignore that religion certainly has a huge role in this, because only religious people would be drawn to their groups in basis of their faith. And since it is a selling point of the IS, I can argue that it is certainly also a lot about the faith. It is not possible in any way to separate matters of faith from the IS.

I agree with dondon and Chiki. Not all Muslims are radicals, but those who follow islamism to a T are. I am aware that these radical minorities in no way represent the majorities, yet they are an issue, and their recent actions give me enough reason to point at them and cry wolf. I don't see why one should be considered as an islamophobe merely for disliking these very specific violent, radical minorities, or for disagreeing with the fundaments of Islam (ideas are perfectly passive of criticism, therefore it is perfectly valid to compare it to Nazism if one has enough knowledge about what he's talking about).

Edited December 18, 2014 by Rapier

[dondon151]

that said, i don't like to compare things to nazism in general just because:

- nazism is an emotionally charged subject for many people

- it's extremely overused as a point of comparison for heinous things

[Tangerine]

Well, my family members wouldn't mind, I've said a lot of worse stuff (yes, even worse than Islam=Nazism) to them about their beliefs. Fortunately I have a really modern and open-minded family.

I have to admit though, I know better than to say stuff like this in real life in front of people like Nightmare. I would get attacked and maybe even murdered! People have been on the news for getting attacked for a lot less (going to a bar during Ramadan, my mom and her friends got called out in public for eating pizza during Ramadan, etc.). I know from real life experience that Muslims in particular are EXTREMELY sensitive about their religion, and from events on the news like gangs of Muslims attacking embassies simply for defending free speech.

Come on, saying "people like Nightmare" would potentially murder you for speaking negatively about their religion? What was even the purpose of saying something like that if not to offend or bait him? Cut that garbage out.

It is most definitely a good call to keep those thoughts to yourself, because radicals have been known to either use or threaten physical violence in response to criticism. "Muslims" are sensitive about it because it is a hot topic at this point and they have a lot of very poor representitives getting major coverage in the media. People assuming that all Muslims are dangerous or have some kind of agenda put them on edge when approached about the subject, especially by people they don't know.

All religions have dark histories. There are plenty of Muslims capable of identifying the problems with their religion's idealogies.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Tangerine

[Chiki]

Come on, saying "people like Nightmare" would potentially murder you for speaking negatively about their religion? What was even the purpose of saying something like that if not to offend or bait him? Cut that garbage out.

It is most definitely a good call to keep those thoughts to yourself, because radicals have been known to either use or threaten physical violence in response to criticism. "Muslims" are sensitive about it because it is a hot topic at this point and they have a lot of very poor representitives getting major coverage in the media. People assuming that all Muslims are dangerous or have some kind of agenda put them on edge when approached about the subject, especially by people they don't know.

All religions have dark histories. There are plenty of Muslims capable of identifying the problems with their religion.

I used "people like Nightmare" just because I thought it was a good example simply because of what happened in this thread. I apologize if anyone thought it was intended to bait.

Anyway, there's quite a glaring error in your reasoning here. Just because I don't go around saying this to Muslims in real life doesn't mean I assume all Muslims are violent. Rather, I don't want to take the risk. What if they are one of those violent ones? That wouldn't be good. I've know a lot of people and some friends who have gotten attacked/criticized simply because of their lifestyle choices. In some extreme cases, people get murdered for drinking alcohol during Ramadan.

Not worth the risk, even if most Muslims are peaceful.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Chiki

[Tangerine]

I used "people like Nightmare" just because I thought it was a good example simply because of what happened in this thread. I apologize if anyone thought it was intended to bait.

Anyway, there's quite a glaring error in your reasoning here. Just because I don't go around saying this to Muslims in real life doesn't mean I assume all Muslims are violent. Rather, I don't want to take the risk. What if they are one of those violent ones? That wouldn't be good. I've know a lot of people and some friends who have gotten attacked/criticized simply because of their lifestyle choices. In some extreme cases, people get murdered for drinking alcohol during Ramadan.

Not worth the risk, even if most Muslims are peaceful.

I don't see how that could be considered a good example in any scenario.

There is no error. If you consider it reasonable to fear you are speaking to a violent Muslim, then you must also consider the Muslim's sensitivity reasonable. They no doubt experience harassment based on the perception of their beliefs created by the extremists that get reported on so frequently.

[Chiki]

There is no error. If you consider it reasonable to fear you are speaking to a violent Muslim, then you must also consider the Muslim's sensitivity reasonable. They no doubt experience harassment based on the perception of their beliefs created by the extremists that get reported on so frequently.

The problem was that you seemed to assume (from what I get) that I think all Muslims are violent:

People assuming that all Muslims are dangerous or have some kind of agenda put them on edge when approached about the subject, especially by people they don't know.

Second, I'm talking about me speaking to other Muslims in a Middle Eastern country, so they don't experience any kind of harassment. Non-Muslims like me do. In fact, where I live(d), 75% of people would be uncomfortable if they had an atheist neighbor.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Chiki

[dondon151]

If you consider it reasonable to fear you are speaking to a violent Muslim, then you must also consider the Muslim's sensitivity reasonable.

this is not a true if-then statement... adults exhibit social inhibitions precisely to avoid situations where a reasonable objection leads to an unreasonable reaction. i consider it reasonable to not advertise my atheism, but i don't consider distrust of atheists to be reasonable.

They no doubt experience harassment based on the perception of their beliefs created by the extremists that get reported on so frequently.

this may be true for muslims living in western countries, but this is definitely not true for muslims living in majority-muslim countries, which is where these sorts of beliefs aren't uncommon. the average guy living in iran or indonesia isn't going to feel "harassed" because outsiders perceive their religion based on representative extremists. they are likely going to be completely unaware of outsider opinion, already have a preformed opinion of outsiders, or more concerned with sectarian differences than anything else.

the term "extremism" is also somewhat relative. the injunction against depictions of mohammed is pretty extreme, in my opinion, and this is evidenced by the instances where people or organizations who depicted mohammed were threatened with violence (in some cases, the violence was executed). this is not some fringe group of muslims who responded in this manner; people who really had no idea what was going on took to the streets and protested the depictions. this vein of belief is not uncommon - i had a friend in undergrad who sincerely thought that everybody draw mohammed day should have been banned from observance on campus.

it doesn't help that islamic apologists tend to have a reputation for obfuscating the facts. the best example i can think of off the top of my head is the claim that "islam" means "peace" when its actual meaning is "[peace through] submission to god." those are two completely different definitions.

Edited December 18, 2014 by dondon151

[Integrity]

Well, my family members wouldn't mind, I've said a lot of worse stuff (yes, even worse than Islam=Nazism) to them about their beliefs. Fortunately I have a really modern and open-minded family.

"well i have black friends who don't mind it when i call them niggers so it's okay"

dude really

I have to admit though, I know better than to say stuff like this in real life in front of people like Nightmare. I would get attacked and maybe even murdered!

dude seriously i ain't even a muslim but if you stood up in front of me, to my face, and told me how christians are just fearmongers looking for an excuse to bomb people of other religions i would probably up and punch you right there unless you were really super swole or something. there is a person in that scenario who is being unreasonable and spoiler alert it isn't the guy you're talking to.

i had a friend in undergrad who sincerely thought that everybody draw mohammed day should have been banned from observance on campus.

was that actually a thing and it is what it sounds like because "don't do thing that you have no reason to do other than to offend me" seems totally reasonable tbf

EDIT: don't get me wrong some reactions to depictions of mohammed (pbuh) are pretty messed up in general but this particular dude's sentiment doesn't seem unreasonable

EDIT2: oh yeah before i forget the reason i actually showed up here lol

people like Nightmare. I would get attacked and maybe even murdered!

i don't give a fuck what your intentions were, namedropping another member in the context of "people who would murder me" is unacceptable behavior, fullstop. do not do this again.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Integrity

[Tangerine]

The problem was that you seemed to assume (from what I get) that I think all Muslims are violent:

Second, I'm talking about me speaking to other Muslims in a Middle Eastern country, so they don't experience any kind of harassment. Non-Muslims like me do. In fact, where I live(d), 75% of people would be uncomfortable if they had an atheist neighbor.

I wasn't trying to say you believe all Muslims are violent.

It was a misunderstanding if you were exclusively talking about the middleeast, because you do not currently live there and when you said you were afraid to say it "in person" I obviously assumed you were speaking about where you are now.

I don't know much about what goes on there personally, but I would not be surprised at all if the violent Muslims you're talking about do treat the "peaceful" ones poorly because they do not subscribe to the same beliefs. But that's not a discussion I intended to get into in the first place.

[Esau of Isaac]

Second, I'm talking about me speaking to other Muslims in a Middle Eastern country, so they don't experience any kind of harassment. Non-Muslims like me do. In fact, where I live(d), 75% of people would be uncomfortable if they had an atheist neighbor.

You never specified that you were talking about saying this in a Middle Easter country. And it's not especially surprising if someone reacted violently, there or otherwise. If you went to many areas in America where large populations of Christians gather and loudly compared Christianity to Nazism you might get your shit kicked in too. Huge surprise, people become irrational when enraged by petulant insulting comparisons of something they hold sacred.

Edited December 19, 2014 by Esau of Isaac