Playable characters dying during the story

[Jotari]

Gameplay and plot of Fire Emblem have always had an interesting dynamic. On one hand the gameplay can really enhance the way the plot develops as the story will play out as you're on the field making decisions. On the other hand it can really limit the story as characters who appear early have no guarantee of being alive near the end or even recruited in the first place. Some other characters will conspicuously hang around but won't be playable until they've finished their plot based importance (I'm looking at you Flavia and Basilio).

With that in mind, how would you feel about getting a character for a large portion of the game only for them to suddenly die? I can think of only two occasions where they've done something like this.

The Leinster crowd in FE4, and even then you eventually get Finn back (everyone else dying is not really counted since that's the end of their gameplay segment anyway). And Eyvel getting turned to stone in Thracia which I often see hailed as the best fusion of gameplay and story in the series, though you can eventually get Eyvel back at a point where she's useless gameplay wise.

There's also Ninan/Nils switcheroo and both the Black Knight and Orson are only available for a few chapters before being lost for the remainder of the game.

One obvious reason this isn't done is that the player's will be annoyed if they've invested a lot of exp into a character only to have them suddenly snatched away from them. Though if it's a Jeigan that isn't getting many levels like Eyvel then that wouldn't be as big a problem. Another problem would be the fact that for the plot to kill them at that point, you kind of need them to live that long. Though if they do the Radiant Dawn style retreat you could get around that and for a long time I've wanted a retreat skill that puts a character out of commission for three chapters but allows them to come back after that. A plot important character could have such a skill locked to them.

Anyway how would it make you feel is Sephiroth randomly turned up and killed Soren in chapter 20? I think there's a lot of great potential in the story (and the gameplay, it would make a villain seem a lot more intimidating) but are the problems with gameplay too big to make it work beyond what we've seen so far?

Edited January 15, 2015 by Jotari

[Dragoncat]

I havent played FF7 but I'd assume on the first playthrough/when you don't know it will happen, it would be irksome. Imagine leveling up this character to make them awesome and you can't use them for the rest of the game because they're dead, not by your own mistake and you can't reset to get them back. Future playthroughs people would probably avoid using them as a result. I understand Aeris was the only healer at the time and therefore you pretty much had to use her but meh.

It's a neat idea, but the non playable Greil dying does enough to show the power of the villain, BK.

[Ownagepuffs]

As long as they don't kill a top tier unit I'm down with it Though it would be sort of cool if they gave you a replacement character who does the same thing and inherits all the exp. Using your example, if Sothe died in C20 then Volke comes along with Sothe's inventory and exp.

They did this with Galuf in Final Fantasy V. He dies super late into the story, but his granddaughter replaces him and inherits all his job levels and inventory. It's oft the most convenient solution since it doesn't fuck over a player who invested in the character.

In the case of like, Aerith in Final Fantasy VII, she dies at a point in the game where it's not really that bad. You're given enough time to catch up another party member for the rest of the game.

So yeah there's two ways to handle it. The character dies late enough for you to develop a connection to them but early enough that any investment lost is not significant. Or the character dies super late and you are given a replacement. Both of these maximize gameplay convenience while retaining the impact of killing off a character.

[Jotari]

As long as they don't kill a top tier unit I'm down with it Though it would be sort of cool if they gave you a replacement character who does the same thing and inherits all the exp. Using your example, if Sothe died in C20 then Volke comes along with Sothe's inventory and exp.

They did this with Galuf in Final Fantasy V. He dies super late into the story, but his granddaughter replaces him and inherits all his job levels and inventory. It's oft the most convenient solution since it doesn't fuck over a player who invested in the character.

In the case of like, Aerith in Final Fantasy VII, she dies at a point in the game where it's not really that bad. You're given enough time to catch up another party member for the rest of the game.

So yeah there's two ways to handle it. The character dies late enough for you to develop a connection to them but early enough that any investment lost is not significant. Or the character dies super late and you are given a replacement. Both of these maximize gameplay convenience while retaining the impact of killing off a character.

Alternatively it could be a rather useless character (probably some kind of diplomat) you have no interest in using but is forced in some chapters where s/he is more like a walking defend point. Having gameover if such a character died would also solve the problem of them dying to early too.

[dondon151]

dying-and-coming-back would only work if stats aren't inflated or the unit gets autoleveling to compensate. FE8 had a little bit of this; FE10 demonstrated the problem with not autoleveling units that left for a long period of time.

[Jotari]

dying-and-coming-back would only work if stats aren't inflated or the unit gets autoleveling to compensate. FE8 had a little bit of this; FE10 demonstrated the problem with not autoleveling units that left for a long period of time.

I'm not suggesting a character dies and comes back. I'm suggesting a character dying period after possibly investing time into them.

[powerserg]

Imagine if you didn't use the character and you didn't care at all. Then when the character dies nothing matter and the impact is wasted.

[Jedi]

Imagine if you didn't use the character and you didn't care at all. Then when the character dies nothing matter and the impact is wasted.

Then make it the "Jeigan" character. :P useful then suddenly POOF

[Ownagepuffs]

Killing off the jeigan would created greater incentive not to use them that's for sure. Seth and Marcus stomps wouldn't be a thing if, y'know, they died.

[DragonLord]

As weird as it might seem, I actually wouldn't mind that they kill off a character or characters I'm invested in, as long as it's justified story wise and develops the story for the better. For example when

In FE4 when Arvis and his mage army annihilate Sigurd's army (At least most of them)

[Ownagepuffs]

The imperial BBQ didn't really mean much because our lord and savior Sigurd kicked the bucket at the very end of his adventure.

The Leonster crew skipping town is a much more applicable example to the topic at hand.

[dondon151]

Killing off the jeigan would created greater incentive not to use them that's for sure. Seth and Marcus stomps wouldn't be a thing if, y'know, they died.

not really, they'd just hand off the stomp to someone else.

in TRS there was a super-strong unit that joined early and left permanently after a certain point in the game. you were still better off using him than not. of course a very casual player would just go "ewww wasted EXP" and consider it a grave sin to even gaze upon him, but whatever.

[Batter the Beast]

Killing off the jeigan would created greater incentive not to use them that's for sure. Seth and Marcus stomps wouldn't be a thing if, y'know, they died.

Sorta like the paladin guy in FE8 that joins you for like the only gaiden chapter then vanishes (he really didn't die but he still leaves for the rest of the game). I agree with the whole less incentive to use them thing since all the people I know that have played FE8 never touched the guy after their first playthrough

Of course, people who care about turn counts will still use them but the casual crowd will use that as less of a reason to use jeigans

Edited January 16, 2015 by The Batter

[NinjaMonkey]

Anyway how would it make you feel is Sephiroth randomly turned up and killed Soren in chapter 20?

I'd be really pissed off, because I can't stand anything to do with Final Fantasy. Plus, I'd be even more pissed off that all the EXP invested in them is wasted.

[powerserg]

Then make it the "Jeigan" character. :P useful then suddenly POOF

I naturally don't use promoted units in Fire Emblem outside of 13 since grinding isn't a thing and RNG. So I never used Jeigan and I wouldn't use a character at that level. You never know who people will use so you gotta maybe do that with a lord but then people on this board would be so mad that the lord died because every Fire Emblem is about a Lord and has to be. After all Fire Emblem is powered by the spotlight's reaction to the skin of our glorious leaders.

[Baldrick]

Sometimes lords aren't used at all (mostly Roy). But it would make more sense for the character to be important plotwise, since unavoidable character deaths are for plot reasons.

[Jedi]

I naturally don't use promoted units in Fire Emblem outside of 13 since grinding isn't a thing and RNG. So I never used Jeigan and I wouldn't use a character at that level. You never know who people will use so you gotta maybe do that with a lord but then people on this board would be so mad that the lord died because every Fire Emblem is about a Lord and has to be. After all Fire Emblem is powered by the spotlight's reaction to the skin of our glorious leaders.

Sigurd died and most of us thought it was a brilliant plot twist. I have no idea where you are getting your flawed logic from.

[Jotari]

Imagine if you didn't use the character and you didn't care at all. Then when the character dies nothing matter and the impact is wasted.

Not really. As people are saying, making it the Jeigan would mean it's a character you will use at some point, even if it's only in early game. Alternatively, as I suggested above it could be a character that's forced in certain maps so you will make use of them just to stop them being defend points. And if they're appearing frequently in cutscenes then you will know the character. If you're not using them when the sudden death occurs one might even feel sad because they neglected them and din't use them when they had the chance.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Jotari

[Ownagepuffs]

not really, they'd just hand off the stomp to someone else.

in TRS there was a super-strong unit that joined early and left permanently after a certain point in the game. you were still better off using him than not. of course a very casual player would just go "ewww wasted EXP" and consider it a grave sin to even gaze upon him, but whatever.

Of course it'd still be better to use them for their existence than to not use them. Orson still does more in 5x than Neimi does in her entire existence, lol. The Leonster crew (and Orson) are more what I'm getting at. You were meant to use them during their existence but you couldn't do a stomp with them because they leave.

Sorta like the paladin guy in FE8 that joins you for like the only gaiden chapter then vanishes (he really didn't die but he still leaves for the rest of the game). I agree with the whole less incentive to use them thing since all the people I know that have played FE8 never touched the guy after their first playthrough

Of course, people who care about turn counts will still use them but the casual crowd will use that as less of a reason to use jeigans

Yep, Orson. He's pretty much exactly who I had in mind.

[Katie]

I havent played FF7 but I'd assume on the first playthrough/when you don't know it will happen, it would be irksome. Imagine leveling up this character to make them awesome and you can't use them for the rest of the game because they're dead, not by your own mistake and you can't reset to get them back. Future playthroughs people would probably avoid using them as a result. I understand Aeris was the only healer at the time and therefore you pretty much had to use her but meh.

It's a neat idea, but the non playable Greil dying does enough to show the power of the villain, BK

No she wasn't, literally anyone in FF7 can be a healer if you just give them the cure materia.

[BBM]

They could have someone die in the story and then be replaced by an identical unit afterwards ala Ninian/Nils and Paul Walker.

But I think that's kind of lame. For all that Aerith dying in FE7 shocked and devastated people, it's still hailed as one of the greatest video-game plot-twists of all time, and Sephiroth accordingly as one of the greatest villains of all time. Can you really say that Sephiroth would be as successful without that moment? The BK is also arguably the greatest FE antagonist for a similar reason (now imagine if Greil was the Jeigan and not Titania).

[Ownagepuffs]

They could have someone die in the story and then be replaced by an identical unit afterwards ala Ninian/Nils and Paul Walker.

But I think that's kind of lame. For all that Aerith dying in FE7 shocked and devastated people, it's still hailed as one of the greatest video-game plot-twists of all time, and Sephiroth accordingly as one of the greatest villains of all time. Can you really say that Sephiroth would be as successful without that moment? The BK is also arguably the greatest FE antagonist for a similar reason (now imagine if Greil was the Jeigan and not Titania).

Aw man I didn't know Aeris was in Fire Emblem 7. What were her growths?

But yea her death's pretty overrated. Galuf vs Exdeath in world 2 of FFV was way better but no one's played FFV anyway >_>. Galuf was so funny and cheery old grandpa and shit then he got super srs when it was time to fight Exdeath.

I'd debate BK being the best antagonist. I raise you . I consider Arvis to be the best FE character ever since his character basically represents everything that made Genealogy's story good. I love me some BK though. Dat theme. The man had presence. When he was on the scene it was like "fuck! RUN!" If he killed Titania I would have been SO angry.

[BrightBow]

I have absolutely no objections to it. I mean, unless you try to Seth a game on your very first run, you should be perfectly able to overcome these kind of setbacks. So I see no reason to ignore the benefits that come from having the plot actively meddle with the party like the sense of adventure and uncertainty that comes from the knowledge that these kind of things can happen.

Edited January 21, 2015 by BrightBow

[Jotari]

But yea her death's pretty overrated. Galuf vs Exdeath in world 2 of FFV was way better but no one's played FFV anyway >_>. Galuf was so funny and cheery old grandpa and shit then he got super srs when it was time to fight Exdeath.

Galuf should be in Dissidia he's that awesome.

[Jedi]

Tellah's death is usually glosed over by most too. I like Tellah, Galuf and Aerith though.

But back to the topic at hand, we've had similar stuff happen in FE, look at near all of 4's first generation, look at Evyel in 5 (wasn't death but it was nearly)

Ninian kind of counts.