Thousand Names Mafia Day 4

[Percivalé]

My... my... post didn't go through... see this is why I fucking hate mobile. Give me a few seconds

[Percivalé]

Anyway here's what I tried to post, more or less

I once made an assumption in an SF game that scum probably didn't have a dayvig, it kinda screwed me over. I didn't think that I ignored the numbers flip, there's not much I can say other than "yeah, that's them numbers".

Did that SF game have the same numbers as this game, though? When you made that comment it felt a bit more like, I don't know the exact word so I'm gonna use a kind of extreme buzzword--fearmongering. Role shouldn't be indicative of alignment anyway, as we've always been through w/ Rapier's numbers claim and Snike's miller claim (and Mancer's hated claim if I'm remembering correctly), but I still think the context of the role in terms of the game as well as how the player uses their role (and actions, if any) are important. Do you think Bossa's shot came from scum? And do you think there's a scum dayvig in 9/3/1, specifically?

It also feels weird that you easily dismiss that Bossa's role could be ITP even though we've also seen ITP dayvigs before (and recently too, cough .hack cough), but you claim Bossa "could be mafia" after apparently only seeing one mafia dayvig anyway? (Also what game was this ftr?)

[Zkirsche]

kirsche is guilty of the above too

What is amusing is that I am not voting Vhaltz and like his recent content so you are factually incorrect.

wtf is Snike doing

Why is Snike turning this into a 1v1 confusing/bad FYPOV?

Agree with Bizz that PB is kinda lurking. He definitely isn't asleep at the time of #243 and he doesn't expand on anything. Also, I'm the miller Bizz, not Snike.

Kinda burnt out after the first 24 hours, Excellen can you please talk more in depth about my Vhaltz case and why it is bad, I have a section defending #100 in my wall.

Snike I'm not really sure why Shin has suddenly become a townread to you in #160. You make 4 paragraphs on Shin's content. The first is a reanalysis of Excellen's and Vhaltz's behaviour ED1, and the second is a clarification on your thoughts on the Vhaltz wagon. Neither should have an effect on Shin's alignment. So the reason Shin has gone from suspicious to full town is because he made a decent point on Vhaltz and he has a conflicting opinion with Bizz and argued with them about it?

Snike > Paperblade > Vhaltz >> Excellen

I feel like it is likely that Excellen's lack of motivation is very real which explains away a few things. I'm afraid I'm not so accomodating to let you go completely though. I'm much happier with Bossanova after the dayvig stuff, using the shot as a reaction test shows caution and eagerness to find the truth rather than eagerness to shoot a townie.

[🔥YOLOSWAG🔥]

##snipe snike

fos paperblade

fos rose

you know what? fuck it. vhaltz wagon aint goin anywhere n deadlines later 2day (i think) n i think lynching outside of snike/vhaltz wuld b a massive failure. i jus realized paperblade is scummy for the same reason rose is plus all hes been doing is whiteknighting vhaltz. if snike flips scum im goin paper/rose but if he flips town im still on vhaltz

[Shin]

Anyway here's what I tried to post, more or less

Did that SF game have the same numbers as this game, though? When you made that comment it felt a bit more like, I don't know the exact word so I'm gonna use a kind of extreme buzzword--fearmongering. Role shouldn't be indicative of alignment anyway, as we've always been through w/ Rapier's numbers claim and Snike's miller claim (and Mancer's hated claim if I'm remembering correctly), but I still think the context of the role in terms of the game as well as how the player uses their role (and actions, if any) are important. Do you think Bossa's shot came from scum? And do you think there's a scum dayvig in 9/3/1, specifically?

It also feels weird that you easily dismiss that Bossa's role could be ITP even though we've also seen ITP dayvigs before (and recently too, cough .hack cough), but you claim Bossa "could be mafia" after apparently only seeing one mafia dayvig anyway? (Also what game was this ftr?)

I don't like rolespec, mostly because I barely understand set ups as it is. I don't remember what game it was, but it was LYLO and I think Prims was there. He had used a vig shot and it turned out he was scum. You're missing the point, I'm not saying we should fear him based on having a shot, but we need to make sense of things in context. Do I think it was a scum-shot? I don't really have an answer at this current stage. The shot itself made sense, considering Rapier was doing virtually nothing to forward the game, but Rapier is almost always an easy lynch or shot.

I can't remember what game it was for the life of me, but I would rather express my uncertainty than sit on my rear not mention it. I personally haven't seen a day ITP in games I've been in, but if they're a thing then I guess hypothetically it's possible. Still, my stance is that the shot is something that needs to be viewed in context of the game rather than an alignment deciding factor. Not that's what I'm saying anyone is doing, but you seem to have misread what I was saying.

[Shin]

Snike I'm not really sure why Shin has suddenly become a townread to you in #160. You make 4 paragraphs on Shin's content. The first is a reanalysis of Excellen's and Vhaltz's behaviour ED1, and the second is a clarification on your thoughts on the Vhaltz wagon. Neither should have an effect on Shin's alignment. So the reason Shin has gone from suspicious to full town is because he made a decent point on Vhaltz and he has a conflicting opinion with Bizz and argued with them about it?

This is something I've noticed with his Vhaltz read too. It turned from a hesitant null to scum pretty quickly, without much deliberation.

YOLO, I kinda get where your Paper suspicion is coming from, but can I ask about rose? Is it the general lack of contribution? It's not that I think it's completely out of the question to suspect them but what exactly ties them to Paper?

[Percivalé]

@shin Oh, all right, that makes sense then. That was what I was trying to say too and I was a bit confused what your stance on the shot was. My apologies. Thanks for answering!

[Percivalé]

Oh kirsche did I say snike instead of you was miller.... whoops

I was tired last night lol

YOLO do you really think Paperblade and Rose are doing the same kind of lurking? Not reading the game versus probably lurking the game on anon and sitting and throwing comments without any clear reads aside from a vote based on a single question and ??? Vhaltz defense are two different kinds of lurking to me

[Percivalé]

I would like to see Rose actually play the game though.

[🔥YOLOSWAG🔥]

i see both as players on the lower end of the activity scale whove expended much more energy hunting town than scum. most games ive played hav at least 1 scum of the team doing jus that. i dont actually kno if rose is lurking or jus not reading but im not givin im the benefit of the doubt when he fits that profile

[Paperblade]

The net at my house went down last night and still is. I am posting from my phone but I cannot play a full mafia game like this. If I cannot fix it by tonight I will need to be replaced

[Snike]

I didn't think shin was suspicious? I just wanted to hear more from him because what he had before the post voting vhaltz was the self vote + follow up. I don't think he's scummy for saying the vote switch and saying I based my Vhaltz read switch on Quote's meta read because I haven't been doing a good job of explaining myself.

I do think Vhaltz is scum though, and I said I'm willing to make it a 1v1 because I don't think anyone other than us is a better lynch today, and given my play so far, removing me from the game might help simplify things. Especially given my role's penchant for confusion.

As for other players, well, I feel like Quote is town based off of gut + the fact that he did waver a bit on the Vhaltz read initially.

I think bossanova's town if only because scum dayvig would've waited for a higher-priority target than numbers before firing off. ITP would've done the same, IMO, because even if they assumed rapier was lying, dayvigging scum day 1 doesn't help them as much as taking out a power role, even with the towncred factored in.

I think Paperblade might be scum because his defense of Vhaltz is the attacks were faulting him for not doing enough (where the case was really his actions looked like he was trying to get out of the spotlight), and ignored vhaltz's dismissals.

[Vhaltz]

I think bossanova's town if only because scum dayvig would've waited for a higher-priority target than numbers before firing off. ITP would've done the same, IMO, because even if they assumed rapier was lying, dayvigging scum day 1 doesn't help them as much as taking out a power role, even with the towncred factored in.

Not really. All of the scum dayvigs I've seen tend to go for easy targets to avoid looking questionable, unless they intend to suicide along with their shots. If you've got a shot as scum you want to get rid of it on whatever chump town makes mistakes early because you won't look bad for it and you'll get cred for being a proven dayvig.

Let's say I already died and flipped VT, who would you lynch and why?

[Excellen Browning]

I'm not happy with Quote's reasoning for voting Paperblade in #241. It goes "We now know Rapier is town, but when Paperblade voted Rapier we didn't, (and it was ED1) and because we now know Rapier is town, Paperblade's vote is now really shoddy" Which is odd, logically, considering it was ED1 and to be fair at the time nobody knew Rapier was going to flip town(?) except for Rapier, maf and ITP. This is a case of "judge crimes of the time with the laws of the time" if I had to paraphrase it. I feel like you're trying to mispresent things here. Considering your posting record so far, I also can't really say I'm seeing you scumhunt.

As for a response to kirsche, as far as I'm aware, your case against Vhaltz is summed up as follows:

Vhaltz points out things around him but refuses to come to conclusions. He did not call out Rapier's vote immediately, when we know it was poor, and he did not vote Rapier.

Vhaltz does not try to influence discussion around him at all

To which I simply replied that your logic was made of ass. At the time of post #100, I would agree Vhaltz hasn't been pursuing Rapier as agressively as he could, but in reality the fundamental point of this is "you're not obvtown enough", not "you're scum". Ergo, this point makes no sense. As for the second point, I don't understand where it's coming from. If anything, by now I think we can establish that Vhaltz had been trying to defend himself in some way or form since the wagon on him started, and has since then. At best, I think of this point of yours as a gutread at best and an outright lie at worst.

I also think your thing about "paperblade should have been awake, this is scum" is really, really silly.

I agree with Paperblade that Snike willing to make this a lynch a 1v1 between him and Vhaltz is weird. What exactly is the point of a 1v1 on D1 on a D1 start? In my opinion, it would serve to keep discussion focused on him and Vhaltz. Which means it's not on other people, frustrating general discussion. I also disagree with his bit about scumvig waiting for a fatter target. I'm fairly certain a dead town is a dead town, and for maf that's a cause for joy, esp if they can get away with it, no questions asked. Like now.

I'll withhold voting for now, and will do some other stuff for a while to let my thoughts crystallize.

[Prims]

Vhaltz, I do think I'd have been more pressured as scum because there's no way to tell it's just a pressure vote and not intent from town to lynch. Also, if you thought I was scum then I don't know why you'd bring post-game into it since scum!me isn't going to be scumreading you over salt, scum!me is going to be scumreading you because I can make a case on you. Still not really a fan of your ED1 but whatever that post is good and I'm fine with dropping this for now.

##Unvote

RE: Rapier: I had a slight gut read on his posts that I didn't think was worth talking about, then when Paper posted #76 I took another look at Paper's case and it did a good job of putting my thoughts into words.

removing me from the game might help simplify things. Especially given my role's penchant for confusion.

##Vote: Snike

What's the point in softing like this when you're already the largest wagon as of YOLO's post? Strikes me as trying for town-points. Might as well just claim.

Paper if your defense to Via's case is that you weren't posting while you asleep why didn't you just post, like, right then

[Zkirsche]

by now

These are keywords, not to be overlooked so quickly. What about at the time of my first few posts?

We have to agree to disagree then, because refusing to come to conclusions isn't just "not as protown as one should be" but is downright scummy in my opinion.

"paperblade should have been awake, this is scum"

This is a horrid simplification to help justify your suspicion on me. He was not just awake: he was around. He made a post and chose to simply make a short one liner about why he didn't post content. Sure, that's explained away now, but I called out a lurker post for what it was. Do you think PB wasn't acting like an active lurker before his recent explanation? What has he really done other than defend Vhaltz and sit on a Rapier vote for half a phase?

[Zkirsche]

Paper if your defense to Via's case is that you weren't posting while you asleep why didn't you just post, like, right then

Prims you're being really, really silly PB has already explained why he can't post easily. Watch out or Excellen might try to crystallize a forced case on you!

[Prims]

Oh. I missed that post. orz

[Zkirsche]

Sorry for the snark Excellen but your case is pretty contrived if you think me attacking PB's post like that is scummy.

[Excellen Browning]

These are keywords, not to be overlooked so quickly. What about at the time of my first few posts?

We have to agree to disagree then, because refusing to come to conclusions isn't just "not as protown as one should be" but is downright scummy in my opinion.

This is a horrid simplification to help justify your suspicion on me. He was not just awake: he was around. He made a post and chose to simply make a short one liner about why he didn't post content. Sure, that's explained away now, but I called out a lurker post for what it was. Do you think PB wasn't acting like an active lurker before his recent explanation? What has he really done other than defend Vhaltz and sit on a Rapier vote for half a phase?

Like I said, I don't know where you're coming from in your second point. I would say that, yes, Vhaltz had been defending or at least responding to people pushing a wagon on him by the time you made post #100.

I'm not certain if I would call PB an active lurker this game. His posts have been short yes, but all of them have been on point. And I definitely wouldn't say he hasn't been scumhunting or presenting (unpopular) opinions. And to be fair, what have you done all phase except for calling vhaltz scum and then a snike vote? Just to paraphrase your words because I think it's ridiculous.

[Zkirsche]

I've been questioning you, Bossanova, Vhaltz and Snike. I've stated my opinion on Prims, Mancer and Bizz and engaged in various discussions with a majority of the playerbase.

[Zkirsche]

The majority of Paper's posts are just one liners. To equate my content to that is borderline insulting.

[Snike]

@Vhaltz: I'd have to stop and reevaluate my reads on the game, but all the same it'd still probably be either paperblade because I still don't like the defence or in the pool of Mancer/Yolo/Rose, because I feel like the other players are townie enough.

Re: Dayvig: There's an argument for that but at the same time shooting claimed numbers kills the discussion about that if they flip numbers. Which reduces the confusion in the town and is what scum tries to avoid. When I think scum dayvig, I think Rapier's previous dayvigging where he claimed watcher. While it was an easy shot, it also denied the town information.

@Prims: I didn't realize that, so I was going to hold off on the claim until a bit later. I'm Town Wagon Driver, and I was planning on idling tonight because I don't really have enough information to try to save players yet.

[Zkirsche]

What is wagon driver?

Is that bus driver?

[Bossanova]

Hey, Prims. I know you really want me to respond to you about Shin but there's two/three things that are stopping me

1) He likely won't be the lynch today.

2) I really am finding myself exasperated and trying to trudge along, even though I tell myself re-reading would do me some good.

3) I want to see a flip at this point.

These are (somewhat) poor excuses but trust me when I say I won't half-ass D2 because there will be more information to work with. Rapier shot didn't deem as much as I wanted to but I digress. Quote's direction on Paper makes me think why I town-read him, and is relatively good. Still not feeling Snike will flip scum. Maybe I'm bad as f#ck but we'll see.