HF Makalov Fanboy Kai Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 (edited) lets put this general idea to use in a different, more relateable scenario for those who aren't getting the issue here: "So bro... I've heard you're deathly afraid of spiders, SO I SPIKED YOUR DRINK WHICH TURNS EVERYONE INTO GIANT SPIDERS, ain't that nice? Now you can conquer your fear because you have no choice!" yeah, no i have alot of friends who really hate spiders if this happened they'd either have a panic attack or kill me if i did that to them Edited July 2, 2015 by HF Makalov Fanboy Kai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 If my little sister doesn't want to take her medicine because it is bitter and my father sneak it through a cup of juice/water, is that date rape? Just please guys think before saying something like this. I don't want act like an asshole but when media is using this very thread as source to write a article on "Nintendo curing lesbianism", I literary want to cry. There is a world of difference between medicine and "a little bit of soy sauce won't hurt". (said soy sauce IS bad, don't try it) So either get your metaphors straight or get out of this thread. So is it "offensive" based on reality or a fictional law that drugging is bad? If we are judging the morality of Kamui based on our knowledge of reality, I'm pretty sure that isn't as "offensive" as slashing a human being with a sword or throwing fireball at people you hate. It's offensive on the basis that messing with other people's food is bad. It's also something that I won't expect everyone to be particularly sympathetic to, unless they or someone they're close to has allergies. Or a really bad intolerance. But I will NOT stand for people dismissing it outright, because it's life-and-death for some, and a couple of weeks of hell for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crysta Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 i have alot of friends who really hate spiders if this happened they'd either have a panic attack or kill me if i did that to them i guess you can argue this isn't necessarily fear but intense social awkwardness/horniness but still Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 (edited) What I used as example doesn't matter yes it does, what's acceptable for a parent to do to their child is not necessarily acceptable for somebody to do to a colleague. Are you defending it because you actually find nothing wrong with it, or because you don't want anyone to criticise your second favourite game? @Crysta; that example is actually a thing, people have prolonged contact with spiders in order to overcome their arachnophobia. But they usually agree to it beforehand, so yeah. Edited July 2, 2015 by Baldrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARGHETH Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 lets put this general idea to use in a different, more relateable scenario for those who aren't getting the issue here: "So bro... I've heard you're deathly afraid of spiders, SO I SPIKED YOUR DRINK WHICH TURNS EVERYONE INTO GIANT SPIDERS, ain't that nice? Now you can conquer your fear because you have no choice!" yeah, no Unlike that scenario, though, you probably aren't going to be on a battlefield where spiders are entirely relevant...and she isn't scared here and so won't be having panic attacks. And I...honestly don't get all the rage for these supports. Yes, they're bad, yes they should probably be changed in localization (and considering FE13, it likely will be), but throwing around words like "date rape" and "the absolute worst thing" is going a little too far. This was just a badly written attempt at having Kamui genuinely trying to fix what could be a serious problem. He did drug her, but...it just makes her see people of the opposite gender, guys. He's not severely impairing her judgement, she's (apparently, I haven't read her other supports) normal except for having Rule 63 vision. Again, this is a very weird, badly-written, culturally sensitive support that, in my opinion, isn't really trying to be pro-"drug your friend". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamarsamar Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 (edited) @Crysta; that example is actually a thing, people have prolonged contact with spiders in order to overcome their arachnophobia. But they usually agree to it beforehand, so yeah. I almost want to say that I don't get why people don't understand that this is the important part right here. But I do, and it saddens me. Edited July 2, 2015 by Tamarsamar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crysta Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 he is impairing her perception and thought he didn't need her permission to do so. there was a lack of consent; that is a fact, not just an opinion. there's no "just" that makes that okay to everyone, especially since kamui is supposed to be your self-insert; it justifably creeps people out even if you're a-ok with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty Kamina Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 he is impairing her perception and thought he didn't need her permission to do so. there was a lack of consent; that is a fact, not just an opinion. there's no "just" that makes that okay to everyone, especially since kamui is supposed to be your self-insert; it justifably creeps people out even if you're a-ok with it. Yep. The no consent thing is what's gotten me bothered. I still wouldn't be a fan of this support, but it would just be a lack lustre, kind of weird support if Kamui had just asked Soleil if she wanted it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frelia Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 (edited) he is impairing her perception and thought he didn't need her permission to do so. there was a lack of consent; that is a fact, not just an opinion. there's no "just" that makes that okay to everyone, especially since kamui is supposed to be your self-insert; it justifably creeps people out even if you're a-ok with it. Yep. I still would not be a fan of this support, but I wouldn't feel so gross about it if m!Kamui asked for permission. By not asking Soleil and going on with putting the powder in without her consent he disrespected her and her boundaries. He seriously should have known better. Edited July 2, 2015 by Frelia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PK Gaming Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Anyone have any idea how F!Kamui x Soleil plays out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvype Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 ^ Here. Seems like my first impression was mistaken, this is a pretty meh one as well. Yep. The no consent thing is what's gotten me bothered. I still wouldn't be a fan of this support, but it would just be a lack lustre, kind of weird support if Kamui had just asked Soleil if she wanted it. Same here. Changing that detail won't be too much of a problem in the localization so I hope that gets fixed. So far it looks like Soleil's supports aren't that great aside from the one with Lazwald. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awakener_ Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 (edited) Is it non-consent? Yes. Is the action of Kamui bad? Not malicious attend but can be. Kamui is an ignorance character sheltered throughout his whole life in a castle learned most things through books. Is that justification? No, but a reason why he will done it. The action of trying to help a comrade to overcome a symptom of fainting near cute girls is, I repeat, nowhere even remotely near a "date rape". Saying anything out of context with especially Soliel being a children unit can cause all sort of problems. Critiquing the support for the initial action of Kamui isn't bad but to say thing out of context is. That is all I'm saying, there plenty of ways that man will drug a woman without involving that hideous crime or any ill thought I can think of which will be made better comparison. Uhhh. . .drugging people/messing with their food WITHOUT CONSENT is bad, full stop. It shows a distinct lack of personal respect. It is bad but it doesn't have to be involved with that kind of action. Edited July 2, 2015 by Awakener_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 (edited) . . .wow. The more I see, the more I want to analyze the everliving daylights out of Soliel's character. She said a surprising amount about herself in her convo with female Kamui. But that will have to wait until Fates comes over here. Sad thing is that in her support with male Kamui, HE'S the one with the spotlight because of his stupid actions. EDIT: That is all I'm saying, there plenty of ways that man will drug a woman without involving that hideous crime or any ill thought I can think of. Uhhh. . .drugging people/messing with their food WITHOUT CONSENT is bad, full stop. It shows a distinct lack of personal respect. Edited July 2, 2015 by eclipse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ganhur Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 It's offensive on the basis that messing with other people's food is bad. It's also something that I won't expect everyone to be particularly sympathetic to, unless they or someone they're close to has allergies. Or a really bad intolerance. But I will NOT stand for people dismissing it outright, because it's life-and-death for some, and a couple of weeks of hell for me. I'm not saying what Kamui supposedly had done according to the translation is not wrong. I'm saying if we are to assuming this single act is immoral based on our understanding of reality, why should we not judge the other aspects of the game? Slashing someone with a sword/axe/dagger, throwing fireballs at people (assuming it possible), and turning into some god like creature to terrorizes other people should be judge as well. If a person is going to break down and judge a fiction game or story based on the law of reality, he would find majority of which he analyzes immoral and unhumanistic. What this thread doing is not judging the character as a fictional hero. What it does is judging the fictional character as a Real Human Being who live in the same realm as we (the players) do. While he may be a reflection of the players and an idol to children, he lives according to the rules of his fantasy world. His role in the story is to be analyzed, not to be brought into reality and punished as what the thread is doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 (edited) I'm not saying what Kamui supposedly had done according to the translation is not wrong. I'm saying if we are to assuming this single act is immoral based on our understanding of reality, why should we not judge the other aspects of the game? Slashing someone with a sword/axe/dagger, throwing fireballs at people (assuming it possible), and turning into some god like creature to terrorizes other people should be judge as well. If a person is going to break down and judge a fiction game or story based on the law of reality, he would find majority of which he analyzes immoral and unhumanistic. What this thread doing is not judging the character as a fictional hero. What it does is judging the fictional character as a Real Human Being who live in the same realm as we (the players) do. While he may be a reflection of the players and an idol to children, he lives according to the rules of his fantasy world. His role in the story is to be analyzed, not to be brought into reality and punished as what the thread is doing. You are treading dangerously close to this. Don't push it. (in other words, I'm not going to bother answering that line of thought) EDIT: This goes for anyone who responds to this, too. Edited July 2, 2015 by eclipse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PK Gaming Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 ^ Here. Seems like my first impression was mistaken, this is a pretty meh one as well. Same here. Changing that detail won't be too much of a problem in the localization so I hope that gets fixed. So far it looks like Soleil's supports aren't that great aside from the one with Lazwald. Cool, thanks Soleil: Uuuu… On the contrary, I’ll practice a lot, and someday I’ll show you my courtship dance of love…! Nice, so then they get married during the S-rank. Right? I mean IS wouldn't leave us hanging, right? Because that would majorly suck, right? There is an S-rank, Right?! OTL Putting aside the sheer pants on head stupidity of M!Kamui x Soleil, why on Naga's earth isn't there an S-rank between these F!Kamui x Soleil? The A-rank perfectly segues into it. As it stands, the ending of their support system ends on an incredibly unsatisfying note. It goes nowhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ganhur Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Unless you can point out the unethical part of my comment or even the post you've linked, I will promise not to push it when I can. What I'm doing is not defending supposedly wrong doing of the fictional character Kamui. I or that post is simply express our opinions since I think your judgments are illogical and have holes to patch up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EJ107 Posted July 2, 2015 Author Share Posted July 2, 2015 (edited) I never really picked up on the connotations of the drug-slipping, and while it is pretty bad I don't think it's as awful as some make it out to be. I was honestly more bothered by the bad fanfiction-level ridiculousness of that magic powder than the way he gave it to her. It's just how Soleil is handled as a character that bothers me. In her supports with Foleo she says that women are preferable as romance partners but men are ok, which is fair enough. I have no issue believing that shes a bisexual person who greatly prefers women. But when she has 7+ S supports with male characters and 0 with females that's going to be an issue, or at the very least difficult to write. It could still work, if the supports were well-written, but you get stuff like "I've loved you since I saw you as a girl" or her talking endlessly about how much she likes girls and how ugly the men in the army are only to start going out with a guy at the drop of a hat. The reason it's so stupid is how easy it would have been to avoid all this. I get that they wanted her to be a parallel of Inigo, and if they are desperate to let the Avatar romance all characters and have all opposite gender units of the same generation S rank each other then fair enough. But if you're going to do that then don't make a character who revolves entirely around how much they like other girls and vastly prefer them over men. They could have just made Soleil boy obsessed instead and her character would stay roughly the same while having support options that actually make sense. Also, I'm starting to wonder if this thread was a good idea or not. I mean the support is pretty awful, but I don't think it warrants this much attention. Edited July 2, 2015 by EJ107 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty Kamina Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 (edited) https://archive.is/qh87X Ooooooh booooooyyy. GG Soleil, let's hope this disaster causes her character to be completely revamped in the localization, or else all this negative press will have been for nothing. https://38.media.tumblr.com/580c793a1619c52183a2c4f811001ace/tumblr_nqupoli8Kp1rghka1o1_500.gif Edited July 2, 2015 by Monado Boy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awakener_ Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 (edited) https://archive.is/qh87X Ooooooh booooooyyy! GG Soleil, let's hope this causes her character to be completely revamped in the localization, or else all this negative press will have been for nothing. https://38.media.tumblr.com/580c793a1619c52183a2c4f811001ace/tumblr_nqupoli8Kp1rghka1o1_500.gif Mod please just delete this thread not just lock it. Edited July 2, 2015 by Awakener_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty Kamina Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 I'm just dumbfounded how some fan translations on Tumblr with no credible source blew up to be THIS huge. I can't help but laugh at the absurdity of the situation, even if aside from a bit of misinformation, that it's mostly true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crysta Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 (edited) it's tumblr are you really that surprised i also don't see how this powder is actually that great of a solution to her problem when it just makes her have the same problem just with the other half of the damn army gg edit: upon further reading i'm pretty sure kamui is just concerned with using himself to get her to overcome her issues, which doesn't particularly sit well with me either Edited July 2, 2015 by Crysta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Water Mage Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 (edited) Please don't let that guy or any other gaming journalist see this thread, they would only make a mess of things and make the situation for the game terrible, those guys never do anything right when it comes to matters like this. Please mod, delete this thread, I know it's not my place to say it and maybe I'm being arrogant, but discussing this support it's not worth the trouble it can cause, it's just not worth it. Edited July 2, 2015 by Water Mage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awakener_ Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Please don't let that guy or any other gaming journalist see this thread, they would only make a mess of things and make the situation for the game terrible, those guys never do anything right when it comes to matters like this. Please mod, delete this thread, I know it's not my place to say it and maybe I'm being arrogant, but discussing this support it's not worth the trouble it can cause, it's just not worth it. Too late, some retards already sourced this thread for that Nintendo is making lesbian straight thing. https://twitter.com/Doomskander/status/616498460829876224 I wanted to derailed that whole topic here but meh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambedoresqueTea Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 ... Pretty sure Kamui only used powder to help her stop fainting around girls she liked..? And not change her sexual orientation etc? I'm not justifying this; the writing is still awful, but you guys are getting mad for the wrong reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts