Soleil/M!Kamui's Supports are almost offensive

[Jave]

Yes, and while Kamui was smart about it, of course it's disrespect on his part. And that's really only the bad part of the conversation.

Now, what do you think of Harry, with his placebo? Do you think that was disrespect? I'm not quite sure. But it surely was consensual as Ron saw the potion and downed his drink anyways. I mean, I'd call that mutual consent without mutual understanding, with a good outcome in regards to the eventual Quidditch match.

A bit late to reply to this, but here's an actual Harry Potter example: In Chamber of Secrets, Harry,Ron and Hermione slip drugs on Crabbe and Goyle to knock them out and hide them while Harry and Ron transform into them so they can sneak into the Slytherin common rooms.

[Jackolantern282]

I think all of you should read this-- https://archive.is/qINBl

This article will clear up a lot of confusion concerning the controversy over this support convo and Soleil's character in general.

Kinda sad some people need an article to clear it up instead of the text files themselves.

A bit late to reply to this, but here's an actual Harry Potter example: In Chamber of Secrets, Harry,Ron and Hermione slip drugs on Crabbe and Goyle to knock them out and hide them while Harry and Ron transform into them so they can sneak into the Slytherin common rooms.

Doesn't completely match what I was going for. The Polyjuice Potion there was used to knock them out for the purpose of investigation, not to directly benefit the recipient. Nothing bad happened to Crabbe and Goyle there if I recall correctly. Well, they got knocked out. And fell.

I mean, it has something to do with it in regards to using magic without people knowing. I'll give what you gave that.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Jackolantern282

[Sunsurge]

Yeah, I remember that Harry Potter scene. Not to mention it happens a lot in other books as well. People just took this and ran like a herd of sheep. Really sad, actually.

If anyone reads it, it's kinda funny and obviously well intentioned of trying to help her. The only part I found odd was the whole 'treasure' yourself thing (cultural I'm assuming), and then the fact she's obviously a lesbian (I'm pretty sure they only wrote in that men are 'okay' to justify the fact that she ONLY supports with men), but it's not like the game handled same-sex romances very well ANYWAYS (not being able to get the kids anyone), so it shouldn't even be THAT big of a controversy.

Bad handling. Bad writing. But nothing that's outright offensive and 'down with Fire Emblem', as I've seen on Tumblr/a few users here. *shrugs* Regrettable, and I do hope they change the 'treasure yourself' part of it in the localization, but the rest is obviously tongue in cheek joke of Kamui just being helpful.

[Jackolantern282]

Yeah, I remember that Harry Potter scene. Not to mention it happens a lot in other books as well. People just took this and ran like a herd of sheep. Really sad, actually.

If anyone reads it, it's kinda funny and obviously well intentioned of trying to help her. The only part I found odd was the whole 'treasure' yourself thing (cultural I'm assuming), and then the fact she's obviously a lesbian (I'm pretty sure they only wrote in that men are 'okay' to justify the fact that she ONLY supports with men), but it's not like the game handled same-sex romances very well ANYWAYS (not being able to get the kids anyone), so it shouldn't even be THAT big of a controversy.

Bad handling. Bad writing. But nothing that's outright offensive and 'down with Fire Emblem', as I've seen on Tumblr/a few users here. *shrugs* Regrettable, and I do hope they change the 'treasure yourself' part of it in the localization, but the rest is obviously tongue in cheek joke of Kamui just being helpful.

Yeah. I mean magic's been around since the beginning of the series. You've gotta expect some shenanigans with that. Harry Potter is filled to the brim with that stuff.

In this situation, it's just a bit silly, if disrespectful or naive on Kamui's part.

I'm kinda surprised at some of the things said in this game. Like, it seems Soleil's pretty willing to give herself away. Like I wouldn't be comfortable touching a woman's chest before marrying her. That's just weird haha.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Jackolantern282

[Esme]

Kinda sad some people need an article to clear it up instead of the text files themselves.

Admittedly, I kinda assumed negative things about Soleil until I actually did some reading into her support convos and checked out that article I just posted. It cleared a lot of things up.

If only everyone did research before crying about LGBT disrespect or date-rape or whatever.

[Le Freak]

I don't really understand the reactions to this support.

Y'know Kamui is just trying to help Soleil 'cause the fact that she faints in front of a cute girl can be a problem.

It's like a friend helping you to be comfortable in the presence of the other sex (for a heterosexual).

Moreover Kamui does not drug her to get her, cause the support can be done after Kamui's wedding to another character.

[dragonlordsd]

Ok, the article is unnecessary, and completely focuses on the wrong part of this.

If there is any homophobia, it's likely completely unintentional, as it is heavily implied that Soleil is not actually attracted to women, but is rather trying to emulate her father.

Additionally, the potion is intended to help her talk to girls, not guys, so Kamui is really trying to encourage her attempts to have a same sex relationship.

The main points that are wrong here are the whole "drugging without consent," "touch my breasts," "I can't touch women before married (even though there's an entire minigame on that)" etc.

[Sunwoo]

I thought that the main point that was wrong here is that the support is just plain stupid.

[Nerem]

I don't really understand the reactions to this support.

Y'know Kamui is just trying to help Soleil 'cause the fact that she faints in front of a cute girl can be a problem.

It's like a friend helping you to be comfortable in the presence of the other sex (for a heterosexual).

Moreover Kamui does not drug her to get her, cause the support can be done after Kamui's wedding to another character.

The stupid thing is that she doesn't ever faint in front of girls at any other time. As mentioned before, her support with her dad has her bragging about how many girl's she got to have tea with her.

And female Kamui's support with her has Kamui watching her very intimately flirt with a cute girl.

It's a really stupid thing to justify why the 'loves girls' character suddenly wants a guy.

[dragonlordsd]

The stupid thing is that she doesn't ever faint in front of girls at any other time. As mentioned before, her support with her dad has her bragging about how many girl's she got to have tea with her.

And female Kamui's support with her has Kamui watching her very intimately flirt with a cute girl.

It's a really stupid thing to justify why the 'loves girls' character suddenly wants a guy.

You're making a good point, although for the sake of being accurate, I should point out that she was likely exaggerating or even lying because she wanted to impress her father. Likely she's as successful at getting girls as he is. That said, you're right it's only really an issue in this support. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InformedFlaw)

[Jackolantern282]

Admittedly, I kinda assumed negative things about Soleil until I actually did some reading into her support convos and checked out that article I just posted. It cleared a lot of things up.

If only everyone did research before crying about LGBT disrespect or date-rape or whatever.

Haha, don't worry about it. It's natural to assume before coming to knowledge of something for yourself. I think that maybe we're all guilty of it at some point and to some degree, including myself. You had the courtesy to not flip your s*** like so many others here lol.

Moreover Kamui does not drug her to get her, cause the support can be done after Kamui's wedding to another character.

Also a good point!

This predicament will dissolve pretty quickly once people remedy their lack of knowledge.

I was not aware of the issue with her and her father Lazward's conversation. I think dragonlordsd has a good point in that she could be lying as well. And that's probably the only real potential issue at hand. Character inconsistency if she's not exaggerating/fibbing.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Jackolantern282

[feplus]

Right.

Step one is acknowledging the viral tumblr post made a couple of inaccuracies.

Step two is acknowledging there are legitimate grievances with the Soleil/Kamui support line that don't stem from misinformation.

Having spoken with several gay users in our community, I can tell you they're angry at having their frustrations hand-waived. They're tired of being painted as whiners and complainers who didn't read the supports. They did. They still find it tasteless. They have good reasons for finding it tasteless.

Since posting her thoughts, Andrea-Ritsu has become the victim of death threats, homophobic and transphobic slurs, and general harassment. This is beyond unacceptable. It's a disgrace. We're better than this.

I encourage everyone to pump the brakes on misguided damage control. Don't look to "debunk." Look to open up conversation. Take the time to ask people why they find this support line offensive. You'll find that misinformation and agenda-pushing has very little to do with this.

[BlueL]

I thought that the main point that was wrong here is that the support is just plain stupid.

This. Y'all can argue all day about whether it was meant to show MaKamui is socially inept, whether or not it's secretly about making her like men (more than she does), and every other issue I've seen brought up but at the end of the day it's pretty clear bad writing and vague message is the issue here.

We should dismiss this as bad writing and hope the localization cleans it up so at the minimum it's stupid but doesn't involve slipping a magic potion into her drink without permission. The fact he can marry her afterwards is just a by product of the marriage system making Kamui the ultimate bachelor(ette) and can't really be fixed.

[Othin]

Right.

Step one is acknowledging the viral tumblr post made a couple of inaccuracies.

Step two is acknowledging there are legitimate grievances with the Soleil/Kamui support line that don't stem from misinformation.

Having spoken with several gay users in our community, I can tell you they're angry at having their frustrations hand-waived. They're tired of being painted as whiners and complainers who didn't read the supports. They did. They still find it tasteless. They have good reasons for finding it tasteless.

Since posting her thoughts, Andrea-Ritsu has become the victim of death threats, homophobic and transphobic slurs, and general harassment. This is beyond unacceptable. It's a disgrace. We're better than this.

I encourage everyone to pump the brakes on misguided damage control. Don't look to "debunk." Look to open up conversation. Take the time to ask people why they find this support line offensive. You'll find that misinformation and agenda-pushing has very little to do with this.

Thank you.

[Nerem]

This. Y'all can argue all day about whether it was meant to show MaKamui is socially inept, whether or not it's secretly about making her like men (more than she does), and every other issue I've seen brought up but at the end of the day it's pretty clear bad writing and vague message is the issue here.

We should dismiss this as bad writing and hope the localization cleans it up so at the minimum it's stupid but doesn't involve slipping a magic potion into her drink without permission. The fact he can marry her afterwards is just a by product of the marriage system making Kamui the ultimate bachelor(ette) and can't really be fixed.

Of course, part of the problem is that female Kamui can't marry her, despite the fact that she can marry this other girl... And really, their A-rank support reads like any other romantic one's A-Rank.

[Jackolantern282]

It's a problem of taking something personally, that should not be taken personally. And even if it is taken personally, people shouldn't take offense by it in the first place. But they are offended anyway.

That said, regardless of all this, I was unaware of Andrea-Ritsu situation. Harassment and threats are definitely not okay...

Edited July 2, 2015 by Jackolantern282

[Hunter Nightblood]

The only thing I have to say about this is that I bet Nintendo's press team is having a field day right now. Otherwise MST3K Mantra for me.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Hunter Nightblood

[Aiddon]

The only thing I have to say about this is that I bet Nintendo's press team is having a field day right now.

As they always do; I think they're just desensitized to it by now and ignore 90% of complaints on principle.

[Kirokan]

As they always do; I think they're just desensitized to it by now and ignore 90% of complaints on principle.

I sort of wonder if they really noticed...

[Sky Soldier]

Since posting her thoughts, Andrea-Ritsu has become the victim of death threats, homophobic and transphobic slurs, and general harassment. This is beyond unacceptable. It's a disgrace. We're better than this.

By Elimine's grace, can the internet do anything anymore without death threats, homophobic and transphobic slurs, and general harassment?

[Jackolantern282]

Maybe the problem is that people put too much of their stock in their sexual identity?

If I were gay, I wouldn't flaunt my orientation as my identity. I wouldn't be super into the communal aspect. Sure, it'd be a hotly controversial part of me, and a part of me that will affect things I do, but it wouldn't be something I really put investment into. It'd just be part of who I am and that's it.

See if I were to put a lot of stock in that, I believe I'd be pretty offended at anything resembling opposition to that. I'd probably be pretty militant against stuff like this. I would be really into everything related to this part of me and dedicate my time, resources, and energy to it all. Like, I know me. When I'm really into something, I'm REALLY into something. This doesn't apply to everyone but you get my point?

So maybe, just maybe, people should not put so much stock in their sexual identity?

Edited July 2, 2015 by Jackolantern282

[Espinosa]

Really, the biggest mistake Intelligent Systems had made was actually introducing gay marriage into the game. Now every tiny detail related to characters' appearance, dialogue, relationships with people of the opposite sex, of the same sex, etc. will be scrutinised (or casually misrepresented as something else) by the craziest and most hysterical dwellers of the internet. I promise you this is just the first of the many, many ridiculously asinine gay FE scandals still to come, all because IS put themselves into the spotlight with that first notorious decision.

[Airship Canon]

By Elimine's grace, can the internet do anything anymore without death threats, homophobic and transphobic slurs, and general harassment?

Or death threats, claims of homophobia or transphobia and general harassment.

[Moradon]

Really, the biggest mistake Intelligent Systems had made was actually introducing gay marriage into the game. Now every tiny detail related to characters' appearance, dialogue, relationships with people of the opposite sex, of the same sex, etc. will be scrutinised (or casually misrepresented as something else) by the craziest and most hysterical dwellers of the internet. I promise you this is just the first of the many, many ridiculously asinine gay FE scandals still to come, all because IS put themselves into the spotlight with that first notorious decision.

The support has been disliked by pretty much everyone, even those who don't have a huge stake in the issues regarding homosexuality. It was just poorly written.

But in a sense, you do raise a good point in that oftentimes people will be much more pissed if you portray minorities poorly rather than not portraying them at all. IS decided to dip their toes into the pool and got their whole leg bitten off as a result. I do hope that they still move forward into better portrayals of LGBT and don't let this get to them (if they're even aware of the controversy that is). Or at the very least just have whoever is in charge of Lazwald's supports to write everything...

And also obligatory "death threats are bad".

[Shuuda]

I think I'll just wait for Nintendo or IS's response to the matter before deciding on my thoughts.