General US Politics

[Time the Crestfallen]

http://louderwithcrowder.com/california-anti-trump-rioting/

​It's almost as if you endlessly call people bigots and racists, they're going to get fed up and turn on you. In the absence of evidence of racism, Ana must clearly be racist.

I'm backing Ana on this one. You guys are kinda unbelievable.

Well that's awful. That these people would paint themselves as better disgusts me.

On another note, unbelievable over what? You realise that pretty much everyone in this thread is in agreement that the left has fucked up and they need to do some serious introspection, right? Everyone was getting mad at Ana because she was saying that Obama not having an 'American' sounding name was enough of a reason to suspect he wasn't born in the US, which is a racist belief.

Edited November 11, 2016 by The Blind Idiot God

[Life]

Well that's awful. That these people would paint themselves as better disgusts me.

On another note, unbelievable over what? You realise that pretty much everyone in this thread is in agreement that the left has fucked up and they need to do some serious introspection, right? Everyone was getting mad at Ana because she was saying that Obama not having an 'American' sounding name was enough of a reason to suspect he wasn't born in the US, which is a racist belief.

I was born Canadian. My name (Rafael Broer) has never been considered Canadian. Ever.

Raven might say "well, I look Pakistani so that's why" but I look like the average white guy. And I got asked a ton about my name growing up too.

​Your argument is silly because you're LOOKING for racism.

[Res]

I was born Canadian. My name (Rafael Broer) has never been considered Canadian. Ever.

Raven might say "well, I look Pakistani so that's why" but I look like the average white guy. And I got asked a ton about my name growing up too.

​Your argument is silly because you're LOOKING for racism.

So you were also targeted by racists with little understanding of Canada's diversity...

[Time the Crestfallen]

I was born Canadian. My name (Rafael Broer) has never been considered Canadian. Ever.

Raven might say "well, I look Pakistani so that's why" but I look like the average white guy. And I got asked a ton about my name growing up too.

​Your argument is silly because you're LOOKING for racism.

If you're thinking this is a contradiction for me, then you're wrong. What kinds of questions were you asked? Because I find it quite a shitty thing to do regardless of skin colour.

And how is this looking for racism? She's attempting to justify Obama being demanded to reveal his birth certificate and suspected of being born in Kenya, just because he doesn't have an 'American' sounding name and even after he revealed his birth certificate, was accused of having it digitally forged.

Edited November 11, 2016 by The Blind Idiot God

[Tetragrammaton]

I wonder if you guys would say someone named "Sherwin Bitsui" is not American born.

[Life]

If you're thinking this is a contradiction for me, then you're wrong. What kinds of questions were you asked? Because I find it quite a shitty thing to do regardless of skin colour.

And how is this looking for racism? She's attempting to justify Obama being demanded to reveal his birth certificate and suspected of being born in Kenya, just because he doesn't have an 'American' sounding name and even after he revealed his birth certificate, was accused of having it digitally forged.

Well, I would say that it's more because Obama grew up in Indonesia, his father was in Kenya and basically became a social Marxist at a young age which fueled the rumour that he probably wasn't born in America. And considering that the President MUST be American born, I'm OK with the idea that Obama has to provide his birth certificate... like every other candidate.

​For that same reason, Ted Cruz cannot be President.

​Do I blame her skepticism? Not really. It doesn't make her right ​but it doesn't make her a KKK loving "lynch all the blacks" style racist that you are trying to make her out to be.

So you were also targeted by racists with little understanding of Canada's diversity...

I was targeted by anti-semites which is the only form of discrimination that is acceptable on some level. Being "anti-Israel" or "anti-Zionist" in today's era is a façade for hating Jews but because it's Zionism/Israel, it's objectively OK. You want to play the oppression game? I basically trump you all by being a Jew.

​Here's the difference. I don't cry about how I need special protection and how you are all terrible people for not giving it to me. I simply protect myself with a gun.

Edited November 11, 2016 by Life

[Irysa]

​Do I blame her skepticism? Not really. It doesn't make her right ​but it doesn't make her a KKK loving "lynch all the blacks" style racist that you are trying to make her out to be.

[citation needed]

racism has degrees. things can be mildly racist.

​Here's the difference. I don't cry about how I need special protection and how you are all terrible people for not giving it to me. I simply protect myself with a gun.

ah yes because we should certainly expect people to feel threatened enough by bigots that they need to carry fucking guns around all the time, that sure is a mark of a healthy desirable society. not to mention shooting people or threatening to shoot them is definitely a reasonable way to respond to people perpetuating undesirable attitudes.

come on man, telling people to not let it ruin their life is one thing, but do you think people should have to put up with that? the fact that shitty behaviour is unlikely to cease anytime in the near future doesn't mean you need to be permissive of shitty behaviour.

[Time the Crestfallen]

Well, I would say that it's more because Obama grew up in Indonesia, his father was in Kenya and basically became a social Marxist at a young age which fueled the rumour that he probably wasn't born in America. And considering that the President MUST be American born, I'm OK with the idea that Obama has to provide his birth certificate... like every other candidate.

​For that same reason, Ted Cruz cannot be President.

​Do I blame her skepticism? Not really. It doesn't make her right ​but it doesn't make her a KKK loving "lynch all the blacks" style racist that you are trying to make her out to be.

Obama being eligible to run for presidency is proof enough that he was born in America. He wouldn't have been able to run otherwise, the birther movement was asinine and I seriously hope that you aren't trying to defend them right now.

I'd also like to ask where I implied that Ana was a 'lynch the blacks' style racist. I said that she can't say something racist and then complain when people call her out for being racist. Let me give an example; my dad doesn't hate gay people, he finds the idea of conversion camps repulsive and supports gay people being allowed to live their lifestyle. However, he, as a Catholic, does not support gay marriage for religious reasons. I find that particular belief to be homophobic, but I acknowledge that he isn't homophobic in the same way that Pence is. That one particular belief I take issue with, but he is okay with homosexuals in all other regards and I can understand where he gets that belief from.

Similarly, what Ana is saying is racist, but it isn't a 'lynch the blackies' racist, it's an unfortunate implications kind of racist. A micro-aggression if you will. Thinking that people with those names are of foreign descent is not racist, but assuming that just because they have such a name that they were born outside the US is racist. I can tell that Ana isn't 'fully' racist as it were and I commend her for saying that it isn't about Obama's skin colour, but that particular belief is racist. To put it simply, I think that everyone is racist to a degree, myself included. I get paranoid when I'm walking by myself for instance, and I'm going to be more paranoid if I'm being 'followed' by a black person than a white or Asian person. I hate this belief, it is a racist belief, I fully acknowledge it as such and I take measures to stop myself from thinking this way. Racism is far less of a black and white issue as you're making it out to be.

I was targeted by anti-semites which is the only form of discrimination that is acceptable on some level. Being "anti-Israel" or "anti-Zionist" in today's era is a façade for hating Jews but because it's Zionism/Israel, it's objectively OK. You want to play the oppression game? I basically trump you all by being a Jew.

​Here's the difference. I don't cry about how I need special protection and how you are all terrible people for not giving it to me. I simply protect myself with a gun.

No. Antisemitism is not okay. For what little my words are worth, I'm sorry you had to experience that and it is not okay that you had to experience that. Quite frankly, you are up there in terms of oppression. Not necessarily in terms of how disadvantaged Jews are, but in the hatred they receive. You've got the extreme anti-Zionists on the left on the literal Nazis on the right, and that's terrible.

But that is your belief that not everyone is terrible. Just like you hold this belief, I'm sure their are plenty of black people who think that not every white person is a terrible person. There are probably Jewish people who do complain about the things you've mentioned to the degree you find ridiculous and think that everyone is horrible for being 'okay' with antisemitism and not other forms of bigotry.

Edited November 11, 2016 by The Blind Idiot God

[Life]

ah yes because we should certainly expect people to feel threatened enough by bigots that they need to carry fucking guns around all the time, that sure is a mark of a healthy desirable society. not to mention shooting people or threatening to shoot them is definitely a reasonable way to respond to people perpetuating undesirable attitudes.

come on man, telling people to not let it ruin their life is one thing, but do you think people should have to put up with that? the fact that shitty behaviour is unlikely to cease anytime in the near future doesn't mean you need to be permissive of shitty behaviour.

Well, that's one of the reasons why the 2nd Amendment exists. ​To secure your own freedom with self defense if need be.

[Res]

I think you may have misinterpreted my post. I was trying to say that it's just as terrible that your name was questioned and the people who did that to you were displaying racist behavior.

Edited November 11, 2016 by Res

[Irysa]

Well, that's one of the reasons why the 2nd Amendment exists. ​To secure your own freedom with self defense if need be.

right, but do you think it should be that way? is that a desirable society? is there something wrong with wanting to live in a society where people don't need to resort to violence to solve problems?

[Camus The Dark Knight]

I'm just going to copy + paste what I said on my Facebook to show my opinion.

Very rarely do I post on this site, but I am compelled to say this. To those upset about Trump winning the election, stop rioting and violence. You are involving people who had nothing to do with this and making yourself look like thugs.

There is nothing wrong with disliking Trump, but dislike him for his policies, not the propaganda media pushes on all of us, and please do so in a civil way, quit the extremism, as that makes you no better then the injustice you claim to fight against.

Also of note, I am feeling much better that he got in solely for the fact he wants to improve relations with Russia as opposed to Hillary who actively provokes them. A war with Russia would be a disaster unparalleled since WW2 if it escalated.

[Life]

No. Antisemitism is not okay. For what little my words are worth, I'm sorry you had to experience that and it is not okay that you had to experience that. Quite frankly, you are up there in terms of oppression. Not necessarily in terms of how disadvantaged Jews are, but in the hatred they receive. You've got the extreme anti-Zionists on the left on the literal Nazis on the right, and that's terrible.

But that is your belief that not everyone is terrible. Just like you hold this belief, I'm sure their are plenty of black people who think that not every white person is a terrible person. There are probably Jewish people who do complain about the things you've mentioned to the degree you find ridiculous and think that everyone is horrible for being 'okay' with antisemitism and not other forms of bigotry.

I'm not sure you get it.

​Like I said, I basically win the Oppression Olympics if I play it with all of you, including Raven. But I haven't once asked for any of you to feel bad for me. And I'm not going to start now.

​But that's not the point.

​The point is that I will personally advocate to protect anyone's right to speech, even if they are calling me a dirty pig who deserves to be gassed (something I have heard verbatim many times). And I don't search for vitriol because true bile doesn't need to be explained for why it is vile. I know the difference between the two because I have grown up seeing it.

​I know that I'm rare with kind of belief. But any minority that voted for or supported Trump probably thinks the same as me. And I evaluate comments by their merit. Your side just wants to demonize people who disagree by looking for racism/bigotry in their comments. That is why Trump won.

right, but do you think it should be that way? is that a desirable society? is there something wrong with wanting to live in a society where people don't need to resort to violence to solve problems?

It's called ​"suck it up, butterfly".

Edited November 11, 2016 by Life

[FrostyFireMage]

What makes people think America is suddenly going to become the stage for a massive race war? Nobody would let Trump permit this shit.

[Lord Raven]

I'm not sure you get it.

​Like I said, I basically win the Oppression Olympics if I play it with all of you, including Raven. But I haven't once asked for any of you to feel bad for me. And I'm not going to start now.

nobody cares

​But that's not the point.

​The point is that I will personally advocate to protect anyone's right to speech, even if they are calling me a dirty pig who deserves to be gassed (something I have heard verbatim many times). And I don't search for vitriol because true bile doesn't need to be explained for why it is vile. I know the difference between the two because I have grown up seeing it.

​I know that I'm rare with kind of belief. But any minority that voted for or supported Trump probably thinks the same as me. And I evaluate comments by their merit. Your side just wants to demonize people who disagree by looking for racism/bigotry in their comments. That is why Trump won.

yes and i will advocate for my right to call out others for speech that is racist

what, is what I am doing not considered free speech either?

It's called ​"suck it up, butterfly".

it's called "this is has little to do with discussion," if you want me to suck it up then i won't give you what you want

[Time the Crestfallen]

I'm not sure you get it.

​Like I said, I basically win the Oppression Olympics if I play it with all of you, including Raven. But I haven't once asked for any of you to feel bad for me. And I'm not going to start now.

​But that's not the point.

​The point is that I will personally advocate to protect anyone's right to speech, even if they are calling me a dirty pig who deserves to be gassed (something I have heard verbatim many times). And I don't search for vitriol because true bile doesn't need to be explained for why it is vile. I know the difference between the two because I have grown up seeing it.

Right, sorry for missing the point. I guess I just felt the need to say something.

Since you didn't touch on it, do you understand where I'm coming from in my criticism of Ana?

​I know that I'm rare with kind of belief. But any minority that voted for or supported Trump probably thinks the same as me. And I evaluate comments by their merit. Your side just wants to demonize people who disagree by looking for racism/bigotry in their comments. That is why Trump won.

I'd appreciate if you didn't lump me in the same category as those people. I've been critical of that attitude for a long time now. Neither the left nor the right is one big happy family, as I'm sure you know.

[Irysa]

It's called ​"suck it up, butterfly".

this isn't really an answer to the question and you know it. do you think it is desirable or not?

[Shin]

​Here's the difference. I don't cry about how I need special protection and how you are all terrible people for not giving it to me. I simply protect myself with a gun.

It's a real shame that you'e in a situation that where a weapon is required to assure your safety! However, racism exists on multiple levels, it's not just going around and beating up someone who's a slightly different colour to you. It's a discrimination or antagonism targeting one's background.

Your own personal experiences are unfortunate, but much like Eurovision, it's not a contest! However, I am a believer that people should be able to make measures against racism. For you, it may involve having a weapon for safety, but I feel people have the right to at least challenge what people say.

I feel like a lot of Ana's posts aren't out of malice, but more ignorance. Ana likely hasn't said that Obama's name foreign to attack him or belittle him, but out of the poorly informed belief with regards to foreign names. It's not as hateful as trying to chase people out of town with pitchforks, but it's an ill informed attitude which is based on racist assumptions. I don't think that most of the US are akin to the KKK, but I feel that misinformation and a lack of understanding contribute to poor attitudes.

There are people with toxic attitudes who need to be challenged and shown that their beliefs are offensive, but at the same time, there's a group that simply need informing of their mistakes.

[Phoenix Wright]

Well, I would say that it's more because Obama grew up in Indonesia, his father was in Kenya and basically became a social Marxist at a young age which fueled the rumour that he probably wasn't born in America. And considering that the President MUST be American born, I'm OK with the idea that Obama has to provide his birth certificate... like every other candidate.

​For that same reason, Ted Cruz cannot be President.

america doesn't have a particular face or name associated with it. 萧克 (xiaoke) is as american as john and both are as american as محمد (muhammad). if not racist, it is at least xenophobic to expect birth certificates from someone with a name that isn't white.

[Res]

I wonder if you guys would say someone named "Sherwin Bitsui" is not American born.

It'd be interesting to survey the country's answers to this.

[Dayni]

.....

Shit. Bit much here, isn't there?

I'm going to just ask about people's thoughts on what Trump has done so far in regards to talks with other politicians.

[UNLEASH IT]

Both Ana and Cykes have been revelations for me since joining this site. Their views are completely opposite to each other, yet their mindset and attitude are almost exactly the same.

[Tryhard]

Both Ana and Cykes have been revelations for me since joining this site. Their views are completely opposite to each other, yet their mindset and attitude are almost exactly the same.

Ever heard of the horseshoe theory?

[UNLEASH IT]

Ever heard of the horseshoe theory?

It's something that I thought was a myth but I find difficult to deny now. I just felt like it was a way for people in the middle to proclaim superiority over everyone else by oversimplifying their beliefs.

Edited November 11, 2016 by UNLEASH IT

[Time the Crestfallen]

Ever heard of the horseshoe theory?

Oh fuck yes. Someone brought it up to me when I still thought the left was good bar a few crazies and and the right were all degenerates (I would slap my 13-15 year old self if I could) and it was pretty eye opening along with the nihilism. This year has been the perfect case study too.