General US Politics

[UNLEASH IT]

I even admitted that the perception of Trump "not being able to be bought" or anti-establishment is one of his stronger appeals, even if I think it is fake. Noting one of his more prominent "outsider" points already went back on:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-elections/donald-trump-transition-team-members-presidential-advisors-washington-swamp-a7412226.html

The US media is dogshit and some of the worst I've ever seen and I said nothing otherwise.

I am guilty of using the BBC as my main news source for US events, despite the possibility of similar bias existing from them. I was just tired of seeing American news outlets give two completely opposite sides of the same story.

Edited November 12, 2016 by UNLEASH IT

[Augestein]

You don't get to tell me what to fear lol. That's your straight privledge talking.

You've never had to want for rights. We are still wanting. You don't get to dictate what is fearful or not. Right now, everything is fearful, for we are hirting.

Just stop. They were trying to give you reinsurance. If your response to someone trying to console you is to lash back at them, you deserve everything that happens to you. This is such a self-entitled attitude. Is a person not allow to attempt to help someone because they aren't the same? If so, then why should anyone give a damn about you at all? "Straight privilege?" Seriously? So what do you have "victim privilege?" Does that give you the right to make a general ass of yourself?

And how pray tell do you know this? How do you know they've never experienced being slighted by anything in their lifetime? That's a rather self-centered attitude. Furthermore, let me ask this: what have you personally done to help? You spend a lot of time telling people how your life is worse than others, and how people aren't permitted to do anything because they aren't like you. Well let me ask this: how is THAT any different from these supposed people that you're talking about? The answer is that it's not. Stop talking like that. This isn't doomsday, and in a worst case scenario you only need to buckle down for 8 years . Take it as a sign to test your mettle.

Seriously, I didn't even vote for Trump and I still don't think he's Satan reincarnated. Just not fit to run-- even if I like some of his ideas, I don't think his political resume as well as financial successes are enough for me to have faith in his ability. I also think a person that has a similar level of aggression that I used to when I was younger is not good.

Edited November 12, 2016 by Augestein

[solrocknroll]

You are really starting to annoy me. All Ein is trying to do is give you hope and relief of your fear, and basically tell you that you don't need to worry, that it'll be okay, and you just spit in his face. Go away, please. You also don't even make much sense here to me.

Lol, doesn't this count as "silencing opposition?"

Ein is also biased, having voted for Trump, and obviously has no actual knowledge of my community. If you're straight, you're just an ally and not a member. We are shook, and I don't need straight people mansplaining that it will be okay. You aren't the ones being persecuted. I don't need his "comfort" when it's just trying to say "don't worry, Trump isn't as bad as Reagan (terrible) or Bush Jr (also terrible)

Yes, Trump is better than the man who let gay men die of AIDS because he didn't care, and he's better than DADT Bush Jr. So what?

My one true hope in life is that our classy First Lady, Michelle, runs in 2020. Michelle would absolutely get back the people that Hillary lost with her lying and her terrible word choice. She probably won't run, but people like Warren, Uncle Joe, or Bernie could do it too.Contesting Trump means it's more likely for him to win in 2020, and I'd rather have him now instead of Hillary for four years before the Left loses every single position ever.

Edit: @Augestein: why should I get comfort from people who have no idea what we've been through? Why should I think that they care? You need experience to comfort someone. I'm not going to go to victims of police brutality who are black and tell them how to think when I myself cannot give them the comfort they deserve. Outsider opinion doesn't matter as much in any group that I can think of. I can think of them and tell them how sorry I am, but it obviously isn't the same.

It also is doomsday. If he removes any of our rights, there'd be no reason to even continue living. I shouldn't have to "steel myself" when I'm going o lose everything that I am.

Edited November 12, 2016 by Cykes-dono

[UNLEASH IT]

Ana, Cykes, I feel like the both of you should probably stop. The values that you have seem to be so opposite to each other, I just can't see any way for an argument between the two of you to reach a peaceful conclusion (or any conclusion, for that matter). And Ana, while I don't agree with Cykes, didn't Eclipse just talk to you about this?

"Life lesson time~!

I'll take your word for it that you feel fear for being a Trump supporter. Do you like that feeling? The same fear you feel is what minorities feel - unsure of whether or not they'd be the target of harassment (or worse). Though using fear is a horrible way of relating to people, it's a start. They feel it, and you feel it, too. The question is. . .what will you do with this knowledge? Make those feeling of fear worse for others? Nod, knowing that perhaps the two of you aren't quite as different as you thought? Completely ignore me because it sounds like I'm talking out of my ass?"

Edited November 12, 2016 by UNLEASH IT

[solrocknroll]

Ana, Cykes, I feel like the both of you should probably stop. The values that you have seem to be so opposite to each other, I just can't see anyway for an argument between the two of you to reach a peaceful conclusion (or any conclusion, for that matter).

The only "values" I have is LGBT rights, as well as rights for all minorities in general. Literally nothing else matters.

[Res]

I'll be fair here and say that there are so many appointments Trump will have to make that he'll eventually have to draw on Washington insiders to fill them. It's the Cabinet and other close positions that we'll need to keep an eye on.

US immigration throughout history has generally been a lot more lenient than other first-world countries, at least in terms of the amount of immigrants it accepts. Not only that, but most other countries prioritize highly-skilled immigrants; the US by comparison accepts a lot of poor or unskilled immigrants.

Anchor babies is a concern, and even Trump himself has talked about repealing or modifying the Fourteenth Amendment. Birthright citizenship is something that is far too easily abused, and I've mentioned birth tourism here before.

Yes; immigration has been lenient in the past, but right now I'm not sure how you could make it tougher without financially punishing families. The number of refugees and lottery winners is still small; most unskilled immigrants only have a chance of immigrating through marriage to a U.S. Citizen.

It's also worth noting that on a family visa, you have to have a sponsor, and there is a minimum income requirement. Also, as a PR I cannot claim benefits (except for employment related benefits) until I have been here ten years or have 40 quarters of employment under my belt.

You are really starting to annoy me. All Ein is trying to do is give you hope and relief of your fear, and basically tell you that you don't need to worry, that it'll be okay, and you just spit in his face. Go away, please. You also don't even make much sense here to me.

Ana, you've mentioned of fear of being identified as a Trump supporter, despite the fact there have been far, far more attacks on gay and trans people than on Trump supporters. So why is Cykes not permitted to be fearful?

[Rezzy]

Lol, doesn't this count as "silencing opposition?"

Ein is also biased, having voted for Trump, and obviously has no actual knowledge of my community. If you're straight, you're just an ally and not a member. We are shook, and I don't need straight people mansplaining that it will be okay. You aren't the ones being persecuted. I don't need his "comfort" when it's just trying to say "don't worry, Trump isn't as bad as Reagan (terrible) or Bush Jr (also terrible)

Yes, Trump is better than the man who let gay men die of AIDS because he didn't care, and he's better than DADT Bush Jr. So what?

My one true hope in life is that our classy First Lady, Michelle, runs in 2020. Michelle would absolutely get back the people that Hillary lost with her lying and her terrible word choice. She probably won't run, but people like Warren, Uncle Joe, or Bernie could do it too.Contesting Trump means it's more likely for him to win in 2020, and I'd rather have him now instead of Hillary for four years before the Left loses every single position ever.

Edit: @Augestein: why should I get comfort from people who have no idea what we've been through? Why should I think that they care? You need experience to comfort someone. I'm not going to go to victims of police brutality who are black and tell them how to think when I myself cannot give them the comfort they deserve. Outsider opinion doesn't matter as much in any group that I can think of. I can think of them and tell them how sorry I am, but it obviously isn't the same.

It also is doomsday. If he removes any of our rights, there'd be no reason to even continue living. I shouldn't have to "steel myself" when I'm going o lose everything that I am.

I am bi, and I think we're better off now than we were ten years ago, even with Republicans running everything.

This has nothing on the 2004 election which ran on "family values". Here, only the Democrats really made a noise about it, trying to make Trump to be anti-LGBT, when he's not. Gay marriage is a done issue. We've won.

And Hillary is not an LGBT ally.

Everything will be alright. I've been spit on before, but life goes on. The lives on LGBT people in America is the best its ever been and will continue to get better.

I didn't even vote for Trump, but the young LGBT people need to believe it, when I say the sky isn't falling.

[UNLEASH IT]

*snip*

That fucking snake. I bet she only changed her opinion to further her political career.

But, if I look back at myself, am I really any better? I started out against gay rights because I grew up in a religious family. My reason for changing my mind on the matter was ultimately a selfish one, looking back. There was a close friend of mine during high school who was gay, and my parents told me that I couldn't hang out with him anymore for no reason other than his sexual orientation. I got mad in response, because I believed that he wasn't hurting anyone by being who he was and started to move away from the church for that sole reason.

Edited November 12, 2016 by UNLEASH IT

[Rezzy]

That fucking snake. I bet she only changed her opinion to further her political career.

I realize you're probably joking, but when she was in a position of power to actually do something, she was against it, and only supported gay marriage after the polls went in favor of it. She never seems to stand for anything, except for corporations and political expediency. Trump never won me over, but I sure as heck wasn't going to vote for Hillary since the beginning.

[Tolvir]

That fucking snake. I bet she only changed her opinion to further her political career.

It's exactly the reason why. She isn't nearly the nice person the media wanted you to believe she was. Just look at what the people who worked in the White House had to say about her when she was he First Lady. They went out of their way to avoid even crossing paths with her in the halls. I hate using this word to describe an actual person as it isn't very "nice", but in reality Hillary was a bitch.

[Anacybele]

Ana, you've mentioned of fear of being identified as a Trump supporter, despite the fact there have been far, far more attacks on gay and trans people than on Trump supporters. So why is Cykes not permitted to be fearful?

He can be fearful of the hateful people who do those attacks, that much is true, and it's highly awful that anyone is attacking them just for who they are at all. But I feel his fears of Trump's presidency aren't necessary because of what Ein said. Ein is right, the media and Democrats have planted these crazy ideas in people's heads and it's making it look like LGBT people need to be more afraid than they really do. Ein was just trying to explain the facts, and Cykes just seems ignorant to that to me.

Also, Cykes, newsflash: I am not straight. I'm asexual, therefore I'm part of the LGBT+ community too. I'm not afraid though, I'm more afraid of getting attacked for being a Trump supporter than for being asexual.

Edited November 12, 2016 by Anacybele

[Tryhard]

That fucking snake. I bet she only changed her opinion to further her political career.

You didn't know? She's changed her positions many times over the course of her political career, and it was because polls said those were popular at the time.

http://imgur.com/gallery/yZ0LZDP

This is partly why people don't trust her.

Here, only the Democrats really made a noise about it, trying to make Trump to be anti-LGBT, when he's not. Gay marriage is a done issue. We've won.

Trump isn't anti-LGBT, but Pence certainly is. Hopefully he doesn't have any influence in that regard. Edited November 12, 2016 by Tryhard

[Rezzy]

Trump isn't anti-LGBT, but Pence certainly is. Hopefully he doesn't have any influence in that regard.

Yes, but as John Nance Garner said, Vice President has about as much power as a bucket of warm piss spit. Unless Trump resigns, is impeached, or dies in office, Pence is pretty much limited to the tying vote in the Senate.

[solrocknroll]

He can be fearful of the hateful people who do those attacks, that much is true, and it's highly awful that anyone is attacking them just for who they are at all. But I feel his fears of Trump's presidency aren't necessary because of what Ein said. Ein is right, the media and Democrats have planted these crazy ideas in people's heads and it's making it look like LGBT people need to be more afraid than they really do. Ein was just trying to explain the facts, and Cykes just seems ignorant to that to me.

Also, Cykes, newsflash: I am not straight. I'm asexual, therefore I'm part of the LGBT+ community too. I'm not afraid though, I'm more afraid of getting attacked for being a Trump supporter than for being asexual.

Lol, no one "planted" these fears in my head. I deserve the power to be afraid, and no one can tell me that I'm indoctrinated to be afraid.

Being asexual does not make you the victim of violence. It has it's share of drawbacks, like the idiotic remarks of people who feel you need to find the right person, but no one will likely hurt you over it.

[Lord Raven]

Cykes, while your fears are not unfounded, there's a much more tactful way to argue against people. We've already called out the idea of "implicitly supporting racism," and we've discussed and agreed that effectively a lot of the crap that you are doing now - too much emotional arguments, quick to throw out labels and actively put people off - is what the issue was that let Trump be elected in the first place!

fyi - whenever I argued against bigoted people in this thread I went straight for the logical argument instead of calling them bigoted (except one time where I was really pissed), and that shut people up rather than piss them off more. People are more attuned to learning for knowledge's sake, not learning to feel bad.

Yes, but as John Nance Garner said, Vice President has about as much power as a bucket of warm piss spit. Unless Trump resigns, is impeached, or dies in office, Pence is pretty much limited to the tying vote in the Senate.

My only fear is influence over Trump seeing as Trump is an idiot. Pence has come out and said that their presidency will restrict LGBT rights, though. Edited November 12, 2016 by Lord Raven

[Rezzy]

My only fear is influence over Trump seeing as Trump is an idiot. Pence has come out and said that their presidency will restrict LGBT rights, though.

I sincerely hope that's not the case. My schedule is too busy for electroconvulsive therapy.

I just hope this election sends a message that major parties have to put forth better candidates next time. I'm surprised third parties didn't get more support to be honest. My biggest disappointment is it looks like the Libertarians won't get the 5% necessary to be in a better position for the next election cycle.

Edited November 12, 2016 by Rezzy

[Anacybele]

Being asexual does not make you the victim of violence.

Uh, I never said it did?

Agreed, Rezzy, I have no need for that BS therapy either. You can't just make me interested in having sex or make gay people interested in getting with women or lesbians interested in getting with men, it just doesn't work that way at all.

[Yojinbo]

Hillary has never been about anything except unconditional striving for power. All the things she did - convincing her husband that the USA need to invade Yugoslavia, convincing Obama that they need to support the illegal war of aggression against Gadhaffi, supporting terrorists in Iraq and Syria, the hundred thousands of people that got killed throughout the years - all of that just to please the masters at wallstreet, goldman sachs and the military-industrial complex. If there were a hell there'd be a special place for her there for sure. Of course she'd never support the LGBT movement if it weren't for her own benefit.

Call me out on my schadenfreude if you want but seeing her lose to Obama, then having to cheat her way past Sanders only to lose to Trump fills me with great satisfaction.

Edited November 12, 2016 by Yojinbo

[Crysta]

I don't buy the "she's an evil woman and got all these men to do these terrible things" bullshit. She wasn't the one in charge; it wasn't ultimately her call.

Guess who also was against gay marriage and then for it?

Obama. And plenty of others.

[Rezzy]

I don't buy the "she's an evil woman and got all these men to do these terrible things" bullshit. She wasn't the one in charge; it wasn't ultimately her call.

Guess who also was against gay marriage and then for it?

Obama. And plenty of others.

I don't let Obama completely off, but at least he flipped earlier, and before it was the majority opinion. I believe he flipped in May 2012 and actually took a hit in the polls vs Romney at the time.

I expect some politicians to flip-flop from time to time, but at least Obama took the movement and lent credence to it. He endorsed Gay Marriage a year before the Defense of Marriage Act was overturned in 2013. Hillary only switched after she saw which way the wind was blowing, in 2013.

2012 was the real tipping point. People who supported gay marriage on or before 2012 actually helped bring it to reality. Everyone after 2013 was just bandwaggoning after the battle was won.

[Shuuda]

I don't buy the "she's an evil woman and got all these men to do these terrible things" bullshit. She wasn't the one in charge; it wasn't ultimately her call.

My understanding of politics is that the "one in charge" is never the one in charge.

[Dark Holy Elf]

You'll find very few prominent US politicians who weren't against gay marriage in 2004, at least publically.

I unequivocally believe that a Clinton presidency would have been better for LGBT rights than a Trump presidency, but hopefully a Trump presidency won't be too bad. I agree that he himself doesn't seem too bad on LGBT issues; I just hope that Pence or the anti-gay rights wing of the Republican party in congress isn't able to exert too much influence on that regard.

I just hope this election sends a message that major parties have to put forth better candidates next time. I'm surprised third parties didn't get more support to be honest. My biggest disappointment is it looks like the Libertarians won't get the 5% necessary to be in a better position for the next election cycle.

To be perfectly honest the third-party candidates were weak too. Johnson had that Aleppo gaffe, while Stein was hopelessly out of touch with the US centre and flirted with the anti-vax movement. I think a lot of people considered them but ultimately collapsed back to the major candidates (the polls suggest this was the case with Johnson, for what it's worth); it's hard to throw your vote behind someone you know won't win unless you believe in them very strongly.

[blah the Prussian]

The only "values" I have is LGBT rights, as well as rights for all minorities in general. Literally nothing else matters.

Free healthcare is pretty important. I mean, it wasn't an issue with this election, but it's pretty important. Cake is pretty important too. How are you going to live without cake?

Seriously, though, I've noticed you saying stuff along the lines of "literally nothing else matters" a lot, and you have to understand, people don't like being told that causes they support, like free healthcare, which is arguably more important than minority rights because of Maslow's hierarchy of needs (to wit, first you live, then you live comfortably, then you have breathing room to be emotionally satisfied) don't matter.

[UNLEASH IT]

Hillary has never been about anything except unconditional striving for power. All the things she did - convincing her husband that the USA need to invade Yugoslavia, convincing Obama that they need to support the illegal war of aggression against Gadhaffi, supporting terrorists in Iraq and Syria, the hundred thousands of people that got killed throughout the years - all of that just to please the masters at wallstreet, goldman sachs and the military-industrial complex. If there were a hell there'd be a special place for her there for sure. Of course she'd never support the LGBT movement if it weren't for her own benefit.

Call me out on my schadenfreude if you want but seeing her lose to Obama, then having to cheat her way past Sanders only to lose to Trump fills me with great satisfaction.

The thing about it is that Libya is still in a state of civil war as we speak, with four different factions (including ISIS) fighting for control over the country, yet most media stopped reporting on it after Gaddafi was killed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libyan_Civil_War_(2014%E2%80%93present)

What makes us think that Syria isn't going to end up the same way?

[Augestein]

Edit: @Augestein: why should I get comfort from people who have no idea what we've been through? Why should I think that they care? You need experience to comfort someone. I'm not going to go to victims of police brutality who are black and tell them how to think when I myself cannot give them the comfort they deserve. Outsider opinion doesn't matter as much in any group that I can think of. I can think of them and tell them how sorry I am, but it obviously isn't the same.

It also is doomsday. If he removes any of our rights, there'd be no reason to even continue living. I shouldn't have to "steel myself" when I'm going o lose everything that I am.

Because you have no idea what THEY have gone through. Because if they didn't care, they wouldn't have even bothered to acknowledge you. You don't need experience to comfort someone. That's ridiculous. And even if that were so, I can use my own experiences and use anecdotal evidence to claim what I said is right. And they aren't telling you how to think. Just proposing a reality that it's not nearly as bad as you're droning on about. Outsider opinion matters completely and utterly. I said it again, if most of the people in the LGBT movement were like you, I'd vehemently oppose it and attempt to shut down any sort of movements on the account that they are too unfriendly and too radical to do anything. You are not doing anyone favors by acting this way. As the more I see people act this way the less inclined I feel to offer any sort of support or anything short of ire.

If your existence is so flimsily attributed with being gay, you've got more problems than Trump. Or republicans. If you lose rights, there should be the obvious response of "you can gain them back." Or are you just going to roll over and give up? Honestly, if you're not willing to protest and just say "I may as well die," then you've already lost.

@Everyone talking about flopping politicians. Aren't we being a bit harsh there? Who hasn't changed their opinions on things as they've gotten older? What would be more disturbing would be if the person was inconsistent with their changes of opinions. Not that they actually changed their opinion.