The Confederate Flag...

[Snowy_One]

So, yea. I just noticed that no-one here has really talked about this. In the light of the recent church shooting down south a massive wave of backlash has come about that is, more or less, trying to get the Confederate flag removed from everywhere possible; even in places where it would make sense (such as historical re-enactments). There has also been a backlash against this backlash by people who are proud of their southern heritage, people who feel the whole thing has been blown out of proportion, people who feel that this is white-washing history, and people who are sick of the PC culture.

What are your thoughts/stance on this?

For me; the whole thing has been blown stupidly out of proportion. The guy was a nutball who thought he was kicking off a new civil war and by doing things like this... we're sort of proving him right. If the guy had waved a banner of the Nutella logo would we be seeking to back that as well? Yes, there is a history of racism in the south and, had the south won the war, slavery would have likely lasted longer down there. But this backlash against it is just ridiculous.

[Nanami Touko]

right okay i'm not gonna get into the discussion because i don't like debating with you but i can't not point out that

your nutella comparison

is really really bad

because nutella

doesn't have a history of anything

so there would be no connecting it to the guy's racism

it would just be there

what a crazy nutella loving racist

the comparison doesn't work

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

i think my favorite part about it is that you can't bake a cake with the confederate flag on it, but you can with the ISIS flag

[I.M. Gei]

a bunch of sadbrains on twitter is not "proving" stormfront roof right and kicking off a new civil war just throwing that out there

[Phoenix Wright]

i agree with killer mike on this one. in addition to the social aspects of it (flag symbolizes racism, oppression, white superiority, etc. etc.), the flag also represents secession, treachery, and anti-union. it doesn't belong on a union state building, or any public building anywhere in the united states.

i haven't heard of this "wherever possible" mumbo-jumbo, though. i think they belong in reenactments, and i think if stupid racists wanna fly their stupid racist flag on their own property, i won't stop them. i don't think the flag should be erased from existence.

Edited August 2, 2015 by Phoenix Wright

[Original Alear]

So, yea. I just noticed that no-one here has really talked about this. In the light of the recent church shooting down south a massive wave of backlash has come about that is, more or less, trying to get the Confederate flag removed from everywhere possible; even in places where it would make sense (such as historical re-enactments). There has also been a backlash against this backlash by people who are proud of their southern heritage, people who feel the whole thing has been blown out of proportion, people who feel that this is white-washing history, and people who are sick of the PC culture.

What are your thoughts/stance on this?

For me; the whole thing has been blown stupidly out of proportion. The guy was a nutball who thought he was kicking off a new civil war and by doing things like this... we're sort of proving him right. If the guy had waved a banner of the Nutella logo would we be seeking to back that as well? Yes, there is a history of racism in the south and, had the south won the war, slavery would have likely lasted longer down there. But this backlash against it is just ridiculous.

First off, the guy has not been proven right. There has been no civil war. It's a stupendous exaggeration to say that the conflict over where a symbol should be flown, if at all, is tantamount to a civil war. I think your argument on that part is more ridiculous than the backlash against the flag.

Furthermore, your point about the nutella logo is actually strangely appropriate in a way, since the chocolate industry is one of many businesses where child labor is exploited. I assume (and apologize if I am wrong) that you meant to choose a symbol which had little to do with oppression, the history of slavery, etc. If that is the kind of statement you were trying to make (that it would be ridiculous to ban something trivial that had no particular bad association), I think it was a poor one. If he had carried the facebook logo (an attempt on my part to find a symbol absurd and largely, I believe, unrelated to violence against black people) with him during his attack, it would be difficult to draw a connection between the logo and the action. Therefore, outrage at the symbol would make little sense. However, it is easy to draw a connection between violence against blacks perpetrated by the KKK. I'm also sure you are aware of how racist confederate politicians and spokespeople saw the flag as a symbol of white supremacy over blacks, to the extent of rejecting the principle associated with the founding of the United States that all men are created equal. If you are unaware of this, the link below will provide you with some information about this topic. In addition, I'll include one other factoid: the vice president of the confederacy stated that while there were multiple reasons why the confederacy was separating from the union (including concerns about states' rights in comparison to federal law), he dedicated the pinnacle of his speech to emphasizing the overriding importance of maintaining white supremacy over other inferior races.

http://www.politicususa.com/2015/07/03/confederate-flag-designer-symbol-white-supremacy-southern-heritage.html

I know there are probably occasions where the southern flag is used that have little to do with racism, at least on the part of those using it. The Dukes of Hazzard might be an example of this: I really don't know much about it. But the symbol obviously has a potent potential as a very strong racist symbol. I honestly think that people who continue to fly the flag have an absurd lack of sensitivity by flying a flag that has such a history, and people who insist that this symbol is appropriate for showing southern pride independent of racism are naive. I think that if I was black, there'd be a strong possibility I'd be insulted or intimidated by such a symbol, and as a white person I wouldn't want to create such a feeling by celebrating the symbol. I agree that during historical reenactments, the flag should be allowed to be flown. Further, I think that it should be allowed in the private sector, though I think it's in extremely poor taste to say the least. I don't think it should be flown on public property except for a purpose such as a reenactment.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

"there has been no civil war"

except about the civil war that happened in the 1800's of course.

[I.M. Gei]

i agree with killer mike on this one. in addition to the social aspects of it (flag symbolizes racism, oppression, white superiority, etc. etc.), the flag also represents secession, treachery, and anti-union sentiments. it doesn't belong on a union state building, or any public building anywhere in the united states.

i haven't heard of this "wherever possible" mumbo-jumbo, though. i think they belong in reenactments, and i think if stupid racists wanna fly their stupid racist flag on their own property, i won't stop them. i don't the flag erased from existence.

don't forget that the south carolina state legislature raised it over their building in 1962 in explicit opposition to desegregation and the civil rights movement, and that's why they even voted on it last month to begin with

funnily enough, one could argue that the backlash against stormfront roof's massacre, and the reevaluation of the flag's meaning, has freed up people to say what they always thought about the flag (and doesn't the "abloobloo pc thought police" brigade purportedly defend this?) like dale earnhardt jr., for instance, who said that the flag belongs in a museum; he was probably well aware that saying "fuck the flag" would not go over well with your average nascar fan, but said public reevaluation of what the flag means gave him cover to speak his mind on it

this was also a speech given on the floor of the south carolina legislature in support of removing the flag, from the son of strom thurmond

On the floor of the South Carolina Senate Tuesday, the son of longtime US Senator and segregationist Dixiecrat Strom Thurmond made an impassioned call to remove the Confederate flag from the statehouse.

...

I think the time is right and the ground is fertile for us to make progress as a state and to come together and remove the Confederate battle flag from prominent statue outside the Statehouse and put it in the museum. It is time to acknowledge our past, atone for our sins and work towards a better future. That future must be built on symbols of peace, love, and unity. That future cannot be built on symbols of war, hate, and divisiveness.

I am aware of my heritage. But my appreciation for the things that my forebearers accomplished to make my life better doesn’t mean that I must believe that they always made the right decisions and, for the life of me, I will never understand how anyone could fight a civil war based, in part, on the desire to continue the practice of slavery. Think about it for just a second. Our ancestors were literally fighting to continue to keep human beings as slaves and continue the unimaginable acts that occur when someone is held against their will. I am not proud of this heritage. These practices were inhumane and were wrong, wrong, wrong.

Now we have these hate groups and the symbols that they use to remind African Americans that things haven’t changed and that they are still viewed as less than equal human beings. Well, let me tell you: Things have changed. Overwhelmingly, people are not being raised to hate or to believe that they are superior to others based on the color of their skin. My generation was raised to respect all people, of every race, religion, and gender.

I have often wondered what is my purpose here, in the Senate. I’ve asked God to guide me and strengthen me. I have prayed that I will be able to make a difference for this state. I have prayed that I will leave this place better for the future generations. I am proud to take a stand and no longer be silent. I am proud to be on the right side of history regarding the removal of this symbol of racism and bigotry from the statehouse. But let it not satisfy us to stop there. Justice by halves is not justice. We must take down the confederate flag, and we must take it down now. But if we stop there, we have cheated ourselves out of an opportunity to start a different conversation about healing in our state. I am ready. Let us start the conversation.

Edited August 2, 2015 by I.M. Gei

[Phoenix Wright]

"there has been no civil war"

except about the civil war that happened in the 1800's of course.

i'm pretty sure he's referring to the "new civil war" that snowy brought up, not the actual civil war.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

i'm pretty sure he's referring to the "new civil war" that snowy brought up, not the actual civil war.

i hope so, ofcourse you see alot of people deny stuff that did happen in history so its hard to tell these days

[Original Alear]

"there has been no civil war"

except about the civil war that happened in the 1800's of course.

Develop an understanding of context.

EDIT-Hold for an explanation of context.

First off, the guy has not been proven right. There has been no civil war. It's a stupendous exaggeration to say that the conflict over where a symbol should be flown, if at all, is tantamount to a civil war. I think your argument on that part is more ridiculous than the backlash against the flag.

The bolded sentence should hint to the reader that the following statement refers to an earlier statement, which is probably in snowy's post since his post was quoted prior to this paragraph.

For me; the whole thing has been blown stupidly out of proportion. The guy was a nutball who thought he was kicking off a new civil war and by doing things like this... we're sort of proving him right.

Note "new" civil war. Also, since this guy is from present day, he couldn't have kicked off the civil war of 1860s. Edited August 2, 2015 by Severian

[EricaofRenais]

My thought on this are, 1. this flag is the battle flag and should not be flown as the state flag of any state, 2. history is important but we need to worry about now and learn from the mistakes of the past.

I believe that this country is one of the best to live in, and we have come a huge way since the civil rights movement we just need to work together to make sure we keep heading in the right direction. The people of South Carolina did the right thing and should be respected for their coming together to make something better.

[blah the Prussian]

Heritage and hate are not mutually exclusive, incidentally. The flag has no place anywhere in the United States. To fly it is to associate with the CSA, and it must be banned completely. The Germans made the right call with the Swastika.

[Ansem]

Furthermore, your point about the nutella logo is actually strangely appropriate in a way, since the chocolate industry is one of many businesses where child labor is exploited. I assume (and apologize if I am wrong) that you meant to choose a symbol which had little to do with oppression, the history of slavery, etc. If that is the kind of statement you were trying to make (that it would be ridiculous to ban something trivial that had no particular bad association), I think it was a poor one. If he had carried the facebook logo (an attempt on my part to find a symbol absurd and largely, I believe, unrelated to violence against black people) with him during his attack, it would be difficult to draw a connection between the logo and the action. Therefore, outrage at the symbol would make little sense. However, it is easy to draw a connection between violence against blacks perpetrated by the KKK. I'm also sure you are aware of how racist confederate politicians and spokespeople saw the flag as a symbol of white supremacy over blacks, to the extent of rejecting the principle associated with the founding of the United States that all men are created equal. If you are unaware of this, the link below will provide you with some information about this topic. In addition, I'll include one other factoid: the vice president of the confederacy stated that while there were multiple reasons why the confederacy was separating from the union (including concerns about states' rights in comparison to federal law), he dedicated the pinnacle of his speech to emphasizing the overriding importance of maintaining white supremacy over other inferior races.

http://www.politicususa.com/2015/07/03/confederate-flag-designer-symbol-white-supremacy-southern-heritage.html

I know there are probably occasions where the southern flag is used that have little to do with racism, at least on the part of those using it. The Dukes of Hazzard might be an example of this: I really don't know much about it. But the symbol obviously has a potent potential as a very strong racist symbol. I honestly think that people who continue to fly the flag have an absurd lack of sensitivity by flying a flag that has such a history, and people who insist that this symbol is appropriate for showing southern pride independent of racism are naive. I think that if I was black, there'd be a strong possibility I'd be insulted or intimidated by such a symbol, and as a white person I wouldn't want to create such a feeling by celebrating the symbol. I agree that during historical reenactments, the flag should be allowed to be flown. Further, I think that it should be allowed in the private sector, though I think it's in extremely poor taste to say the least. I don't think it should be flown on public property except for a purpose such as a reenactment.

yo lol this is great

gonna jump on the treachery bandwagon, but i try to look at it from their point of view. they were taught to think that way growing up just like we were taught that is the wrong way growing up. theyd be as passionate about their views just as we our passionate about our views. i'm not saying they are right, they clearly arent, but their passion shows what degree of conditioning theyve been through.

[Tryhard]

How does the Confederate flag signify or represent their southern heritage?

Edited August 2, 2015 by Tryhard

[I.M. Gei]

How does the Confederate flag signify or represent their southern heritage?

it doesn't and shouldn't represent "southern heritage", and i'm sure the south has enough heritage worth celebrating than the banner of a bunch of traitors fighting to preserve their peculiar institution. i don't know why some irish dude from connecticut feels an urge to regurgitate the neo-confederate line and lost cause revisionism

then again, "southern heritage" is a dogwhistle for a lot of racists who pine for the days when black folks knew not to let the sun set on you in this here town, boy, and "knew their place" and didn't get "uppity"—see what i said earlier about the flag being raised above the south carolina capitol in 1962—if not outright pining for the days of chattel slavery. if the son of one of the most prominent segregationists could see that the whole neo-confederate line about "southern heritage" is bullshit, that says a lot

Edited August 2, 2015 by I.M. Gei

[eclipse]

it doesn't and shouldn't represent "southern heritage", and i'm sure the south has enough heritage worth celebrating than the banner of a bunch of traitors fighting to preserve slavery. i don't know what some irish dude from connecticut is playing at by regurgitating the neo-confederate line and lost cause revisionism

then again, "southern heritage" is a dogwhistle for a lot of racists who pine for the days when black folks knew not to let the sun set on you in this here town, boy, and "knew their place" and didn't get "uppity"—see what i said earlier about the flag being raised above the south carolina capitol in 1962—if not outright pining for the days of chattel slavery

I may not be an expert in US History, but the secession was a hell of a lot more complicated than that.

I'm also very much against blanket statements.

So, back to the topic at hand. . .the Civil War is part of the history of the United States, for good or for bad. I have no objections about raising the Confederate flag for educational purposes (historical re-enactments, etc.). However, I don't think it belongs on a government building - the state's own flag and the US flag are sufficient, IMO.

Then again, my feelings about the Civil War are about as distant as most other people's feelings are to the Bayonet Constitution, so I might be missing a LOT of context.

[Snowy_One]

*sigh* Let me explain what I said in a bit more detail.

The confederate flag has been flown for years now despite that the civil war has ended. While there may be resentment for it, it's been shown that it's entirely possible for it to be presented in public without hurt feelings. After all; it's been a state flag. Yet now because of ONE person who decided to go on a killing spree people are now willing to engage in mass censorship. His actions have provoked a response and not just a minor one too.

As the saying online goes, 'Don't feed the troll'.

Because of this person now a mass censorship campaign has started; doing their best to ban it from essentially EVERYWHERE. As someone pointed out...

Cake with the ISIS symbol: A-Okay!

Cake with the Confed flag: YOU MONSTER!

Now... As for the 'culture' aspect... Well... Quite frankly I don't think anyone who is not a southerner has a right to dictate if something is or is not part of a culture and the simple fact is that the meaning of the flag has changed. The same thing happened with the Swastika after all due to Hitler. What was once a benign symbol came to represent universal hate and oppression. Sure, you can say flying the nazi flag is hateful and the like, but why is it fine to play games with the nazi symbol present but not the Confed flag? Regardless... IMO some southerners have come to identify the flag as a symbol of rebellion and independence; that they were willing to stand up to the union and fight against them while still being American.

Of course, as I just said, it's not my place to decide if it does hold cultural value or not in this matter. That's just my best guess. My real beef is with the major degree of censorship that's been spurred on by effectively one nutball. Don't feed the troll after all. If your response is to censor things and if said censorship results in a conflict with people who either don't see it as wrong and/or object to censorship in general... you're closer to civil disharmony and war than he should have ever had an impact on.

Bury the dead, mourn the dead, remember their lives, but remember that their killer was a monster trying to provoke a response.

[eclipse]

I'm sure if there was a cake with the ISIS symbol, there would be a hell of a lot of conversation. I'd question the taste of whoever wanted a Confederate flag cake (but that's because of the frosting colors), and that's about it.

I also think that someone in Germany can better say whether or not games that depict both sides of World War II are allowed there/censored heavily. . .and I'm ABSOLUTELY POSITIVE that whatever's going to happen to the Confederate flag will be nothing like what happened to the swastika in Germany.

Regardless, it feels like you're blowing the issue way out of proportion, and I can't figure out why.

[Walker]

Raise your hand if you're from the South. (Looks around)

Look, it's very nice to say the Confederate flag represents racism, but it actually represents democracy to Southerners. It means that we can (and will) secede from an unfair government.

[it may be legally wrong to fly such a flag at a statehouse, but I would think that should be a Federal policy - not a state one. I'm not a lawyer, don't quote me on this.]

[Tryhard]

The confederate flag has been flown for years now despite that the civil war has ended. While there may be resentment for it, it's been shown that it's entirely possible for it to be presented in public without hurt feelings. After all; it's been a state flag. Yet now because of ONE person who decided to go on a killing spree people are now willing to engage in mass censorship.

I don't know about you, but I've always found it rather strange that confederate flags have been flown with pride for a long time. Maybe it's just because I don't live in the US.

Edited August 2, 2015 by Tryhard

[I.M. Gei]

I may not be an expert in US History, but the secession was a hell of a lot more complicated than that.

I'm also very much against blanket statements.

So, back to the topic at hand. . .the Civil War is part of the history of the United States, for good or for bad. I have no objections about raising the Confederate flag for educational purposes (historical re-enactments, etc.). However, I don't think it belongs on a government building - the state's own flag and the US flag are sufficient, IMO.

Then again, my feelings about the Civil War are about as distant as most other people's feelings are to the Bayonet Constitution, so I might be missing a LOT of context.

the confederate constitution contained a clause explicitly banning its states from abolishing slavery (so much for state's rights, lol)

confederate vice president alexander stephens gave the cornerstone speech in 1861, when he explicitly said that "'all men are created equal' is false"; verbatim, "Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition."

literally the second sentence of mississippi's declaration of secession read, "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery"

south carolina's declaration of secession included bits whining about "an increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the Institution of Slavery", and that secession was necessary because "all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery"

you know what, the declarations of secession of south carolina, mississippi, georgia, texas and virginia all mention "slave" or a related word 83 times between the lot of them.

british and french diplomats offered to aid the confederacy if only they would abolish slavery, and confederate diplomats were pretty much like "fuck that shit, we'd rather the yankees burn dixie to the ground than even entertain the notion of freeing our slaves"

so tell me more about how secession totally wasn't about slavery.

Raise your hand if you're from the South. (Looks around)

Look, it's very nice to say the Confederate flag represents racism, but it actually represents democracy to Southerners. It means that we can (and will) secede from an unfair government.

[it may be legally wrong to fly such a flag at a statehouse, but I would think that should be a Federal policy - not a state one. I'm not a lawyer, don't quote me on this.]

did you miss the bit where i talked about how south carolina's state legislature raised the confederate battle flag over the state capitol in 1962 in explicit opposition to the civil rights movement? i think it's pretty clear just what kind of message they were trying to send. were civil rights legislation acts of an "unfair government" in your eyes?

also lol at the notion that the confederate flag represents "democracy" to southerners, as opposed to affirming support for reactionary white supremacy for both many southerners and americans at large, just as the rhodesian and apartheid south african flags do

Edited August 3, 2015 by I.M. Gei

[Walker]

did you miss the bit where i talked about how south carolina's state legislature raised the confederate battle flag over the state capitol in 1962 in explicit opposition to the civil rights movement? i think it's pretty clear just what kind of message they were trying to send. were civil rights legislation acts of an "unfair government" in your eyes?

Quite possibly. Would you like it if you were told by Big Brother what to do, constantly. I will not defend the Southern view of slavery, I am simply telling you that they chose to express their democracy through their flag.

also lol at the notion that the confederate flag represents "democracy" to southerners, as opposed to affirming support for reactionary white supremacy for both many southerners and americans at large, just as the rhodesian and apartheid south african flags do

I am a Southerner, and the Confederate flag represents the right of the people for freedom when their ability to govern themselves is taken away. "War of Northern Aggression" indeed! Just because you view the Southern Flag with paranoia doesn't mean we all have too.

[Crysta]

Yeah, it's more like "it's very nice to say the Confederate flag doesn't represent racism", given it's long history of... representing racism.

It's just that now you can't proudly say that. :D

The Civil War was spurned forward mostly because the South feared slavery was being encroached upon (and with it their States' Rights - which protected slavery - hence why I don't understand why people must insist this didn't involve race at all wtf) and we were no longer admitting slave states into the Union as we expanded westward. To try to completely scrub the stain of racism from it seems pointless; it means you're deliberately ignoring history and how the flag and Confederacy came into fruition.

It shouldn't be flown in any state capital or government building. Which reason you decide to use to justify it's existence doesn't matter; it is a foreign flag at the end of the day.

Edited August 2, 2015 by Crysta

[Zerosabers]

It isn't even the confederate flag, its a battle flag. That isn't relevant anymore though since everybody seems to think of it as the confederate flag now.

Anyways the Civil war wasn't started just over slavery, it was started because the federal government seemed to be favoring the north way more with pretty much everything. Slavery didn't become the biggest issue until Lincoln's emancipation proclamation which also prevented the south from getting any help from Europe. It made it so anybody who supported the south also supported slavery, which most European countries had already abolished at the time.

Of course that is if I'm remembering my history correctly.