What is it about Avatars that makes handling them such a problem? (SPOILERS FOR FES INCLUDING FATES)

[Alazen]

I know you can say that there were FE leads with issues before Kris showed up, but it looks to me that one could say that even among FE leads the Avatars stand out for how problem-filled they are. From Kris being shoehorned into Mystery of the Emblem's narrative to Robin's shenanigans to Kamui being a mess. All of them share being worshiped too much. And whatever issues I haven't brought up.

So, what would you say makes the Avatars so problematic for IS to handle?

Edited December 3, 2015 by Alazen

[Hatsuoki]

Well it would be the same problem that Otome games have with their heroine. The avatars have to be bland and if they can have any interaction with other characters, those characters have to be somewhat bland as well to suit the taste of as many people as possible. I think IS's biggest problem isn't even the Avatar because there are ways to do it right but the rushed marriage in S ranking someone (PLUS avatar being done wrong). They could do a support building up the two characters for marriage and having it happen in the epilogue. WaitIwentofftopicsortof

[Jedi]

They make the avatars too important, if they were silent and not really key to the plot. It would be much better done, SMT games tend to work well with silent protagonists for instance, because while they are key to the plot. Usually you have input on the actions they have.

So maybe a future FE avatar needs dialog boxes including in supports, but the amount of effort that would be, would be insane.

[Sasori]

My main problem is that so far you can't really do much with the Avatar at the moment. You can customise their looks/class, marry someone and fate gives you one big choice, but thats pretty much it. I never got the feeling that the Avatar was really my own character since I barely affect how he reacts in the story. My main suggestion would be to take a page out of Bioware's book. Give your avatar some dialogue trees during supports and have that effect their relationships.

If the relationships can change, depending on the dialogue trees it could also give characters a better chance of saying "Screw you Avatar" once in a while. If people are a jerk to usually nice Robin or Kamui, then we would have just gotten the Shinnon problem, where a character is gigantic asshole for very petty reasons.

Player worship should also be toned down a bit as well. I usually don't consider it that bad, since normal lords get praised a lot as well, but it gets a little stupid when Lobster lord admits that he used to be jealous of kid Kamui, implying that Kamui was already godly when he was barely able to walk. Just praise them when they do good and at least say they're wron when they're wrong.

Edited December 3, 2015 by Sasori

[Elieson]

tl;dr The Avatar does things that I would not do. I basically built a character who doesn't act like me. In a game that emphasizes choice, that lets me down.

[Midori Mage]

I think the problem for plenty of people, or at least me, is that the Avatar is supposed to be you. However, they already have a set personality, no matter how bland it may be. Like plenty of other people have said in this thread, if the player was given more choices, they can feel better suited to feel like the Avatar is them.

Their also is the copious amount of player worship, and if you like it, great! But their are many who think that it's really stupid, thinking that there is one person in the army who is Mr./Ms. Perfect. And we literally have "perfect" people or those who try to be in two of the games already.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

tl;dr The Avatar does things that I would not do. I basically built a character who doesn't act like me. In a game that emphasizes choice, that lets me down.

pretty much this, heck if the avatar were silent it'd be easier to feel like they act like you cause you can throw in words for them.

hell i don't speak above whats needed in public anyways.

[The Geek]

I agree with both Elieson and Hatsuoki. Avatars have simultaneously been both too bland to work as a developed character, and too developed to work as a blank slate for the player to insert upon.

There's two ways that this could work:

1. IS drops the idea of a player Avatar entirely and instead focuses upon a cast of developed characters. The problem with this is that it's unlikely due to the Avatar obviously being very popular with more casual fans of the series.

2. The Avatar becomes a complete blank slate of a character with dialogue options so the player can feel, at least to a point, like they are their Avatar. The problem with this is how they would handle supports with the Avatar. Would they just be the other character talking at the Avatar with the Avatar contributing little, or would they add dialogue options and make supports more similar to Social Links in Persona or Heart-to-Hearts in Xenoblade?

[Jedi]

I actually wouldn't mind the Social Link/Heart-To-Heart approach, you can keep all the other characters talking the same, but for the avatar have those.

[X-Naut]

Dial back the avatar's importance to a tactician role, but with actual dialogue options. Appearance builder is fine, and perhaps add a few generic personality types (kind, shy, abrasive, boisterous) so that you have some control over that? It could affect how the dialogue goes. They would not be a PC initially, but you have the option to make them the Est later in the story.

[Sunwoo]

I think part of the problem with avatars in FE game is the nature of FE itself. Fire Emblem is a series that has featured a large cast of characters in every game, each with their own personality and background and personal history. It's true that not all characters are equally developed, but sometimes there will be a certain character who just strikes a chord with you for whatever reason. We all want to see the characters we like get attention, to see them interact with other characters in a non-forced setting. To really get an appreciation for them.

The problem with an avatar is that when you put a self-insert into a game, where does all the attention go? Why, to the self-insert of course. It's worse than a situation with your typical lord because a regular lord is still their own character. The avatar is meant to be something the player has a personal stake in. So the game worships the avatar, to avoid offending the player that they are representing, in the form of having the other characters worship them. In the form of other characters losing screen time or, even worse, their agency because the self-insert demands all attention.

Avatars demand a lot less attention in a game where the story and the characters aren't such a big focus. And Fire Emblem is a story-driven game with a large cast of characters who all want some attention. Etrian Odyssey and the Crystal Chronicles sub-series are more far more gameplay-driven than story driven, and your avatar characters are the only playable characters in the entire game. That's easier to manage. Even the EO: Untold sub-series do avatars better than FE because even if it's story driven with four pre-established characters … there are only four of them to deal with so the avatar doesn't steal as much attention away from them.

[Refa]

If people are a jerk to usually nice Robin or Kamui, then we would have just gotten the Shinon problem, where a character is gigantic asshole for very petty reasons.

You act like this is a problem. It is not.

[NekoKnight]

Personally, I liked what the balance they had between Chrom and Robin. Sure, Robin got a lot of praise thrown their way but it felt mostly (there are times when it was bad, however) proportionate to their role in the story. One would expect that the tactician of your group would be a important person in, well, a war. Fates was a big step backwards however; the player worshiping warping the plot and characters to give Kamui way more focus than he deserved.

I could see them going two ways with this:

1. Give the "avatar" a more defined (and likable) personality and keep the player input restricted to customization and some dialogue choices. It will not be "you" anymore, but you'll have some power to direct them. Defined characters are always going to be more interesting than self-inserts, so why pretend otherwise? Tactics Ogre did a good job of giving the player's character options and importance without it turning into a feet kissing contest.

2. Make the avatar a supporting character that doesn't hold as much sway over the plot. Choose who you romance, choose your class and appearance, maybe even choose from a set of personalities that define whom you can support with. Considering Fire Emblem's target audience, this would probably be a favorable method.

I'm not very optimistic about future avatars. People who appreciate well written stories and characters are probably in the minority compared to those who just want fan service and to be worshiped.

[Loki Laufeyson]

tl;dr The Avatar does things that I would not do. I basically built a character who doesn't act like me. In a game that emphasizes choice, that lets me down.

Yep. So i have to project too far, and it sucks because that means im literally rewriting what the Avatar says and does.

[shadowofchaos]

pretty much this, heck if the avatar were silent it'd be easier to feel like they act like you cause you can throw in words for them.

Fe13 English and Fe14 threw this out because... it was more popular to appeal to the waifu crowd.

[Radiant head]

You act like this is a problem. It is not.

Plus doesn't that just describe that Takumi dude?

[Refa]

Plus doesn't that just describe that Takumi dude?

Hahahahaha. Yeah, definitely man. I can't even tell if you're being serious or not.

[NekoKnight]

Plus doesn't that just describe that Takumi dude?

Takumi's dislike of Kamui is fairly justified though. It probably part of the reason he is so popular.

[Radiant head]

Yeah I didn't mean it's not justified. He just specifically reminds me of Shinon with that pony tail, class, and being the guy who doesn't go along with pandering to the lead.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Radiant head

[Sasori]

You act like this is a problem. It is not.

Well I did think it was a problem. Shinon reminds me of that one character who doesn't like the perfect main character, but who is so bitter and petty about it that he's wrong automatically and only makes the main character looks better in comparison. If someone doesn't like the main character I would like them to at least have a point about it.

[BrightBow]

Well I did think it was a problem. Shinon reminds me of that one character who doesn't like the perfect main character, but who is so bitter and petty about it that he's wrong automatically and only makes the main character looks better in comparison. If someone doesn't like the main character I would like them to at least have a point about it.

I can't say that I got that impression that Shinon was really meant to be seen like that. Sure, he initially comes across like a racist, petty bastard. But after going through the Begnion part... you notice that he tends to have a point. PoR isn't particular kind towards a social system that defines a person's status at birth, be it as slaves declared property, decadent senators or incompetent Begnion generals. However, that's exactly why our hero Ike became leader of the mercenaries. It was even stated that everyone knew that this was going to happen sooner or later. It didn't matter how good Ike actually was, he was the son of the former leader so he would become leader himself, period. Of course Shinon wouldn't be happy with that arrangement. If you have Titania fight against Shinon, he actually admits that he respects her despite their opposite stances on just about everything, most likely because she actually has a ton of experience under her belt. So he probably would have followed her if she became the commander.

His complaints early on about the mercenaries not getting the pay they deserve also ring true. Shinon is skilled. Very skilled. "A shot right between the eyes" and all that. The Radiant Dawn ending even describes him as "An expert at all he puts his hand to". It's no wonder that he is frustrated by his position in life, that society is wired in a way that prevents him from stepping up no matter how hard he tries. And consequently he would be jealous of Ike because he was given tons of things simply by virtue of his birth, having done nothing to deserve any of it. Their info conversation were Shinon is drunk makes that point very obvious. And of course it's no wonder that he would join the Daein army were one's standing is defined by their actual ability.

Basically, I never got the impression that the game actively judged the guy. I always felt that I was allowed to have my own opinion on him.

Edited December 4, 2015 by BrightBow

[Sasori]

I can't say that I got that impression that Shinon was really meant to be seen like that. Sure, he initially comes across like a racist, petty bastard. But after going through the Begnion part... you notice that he tends to have a point. PoR isn't particular kind towards a social system that defines a person's status at birth, be it as slaves declared property, decadent senators or incompetent Begnion generals. However, that's exactly why our hero Ike became leader of the mercenaries. It was even stated that everyone knew that this was going to happen sooner or later. It didn't matter how good Ike actually was, he was the son of the former leader so he would become leader himself, period. Of course Shinon wouldn't be happy with that arrangement. If you have Titania fight against Shinon, he actually admits that he respects her despite their opposite stances on just about everything, most likely because she actually has a ton of experience under her belt. So he probably would have followed her if she became the commander.

His complaints early on about the mercenaries not getting the pay they deserve also ring true. Shinon is skilled. Very skilled. "A shot right between the eyes" and all that. The Radiant Dawn ending even describes him as "An expert at all he puts his hand to". It's no wonder that he is frustrated by his position in life, that society is wired in a way that prevents him from stepping up no matter how hard he tries. And consequently he would be jealous of Ike because he was given tons of things simply by virtue of his birth, having done nothing to deserve any of it. Their info conversation were Shinon is drunk makes that point very obvious. And of course it's no wonder that he would join the Daein army were one's standing is defined by their actual ability.

Basically, I never got the impression that the game actively judged the guy. I always felt that I was allowed to have my own opinion on him.

Well its true that Shinon has his reasons to do what he does. As you say he's limited by his social status and thinks Ike doesn't deserve to be the leader for being Ike's son, but I never really found myself on Shinon's side in any argument, mostly because of the way how he presents himself.

Others in the game touch on the same subjects, such as Ulki explaining why relying so much on birth isn't a good idea in wars and the like, but he manages to get those things across without appearing to be so unlikeable in my eyes.

[Darkspellmaster]

I think the social links idea would work, but the character needs to be defined rather then just a blank slate. Each of the persona protags tend to have their own personalities and specific ways of looking at things. I'm a bit worried about the whole "Let's do the bioware tree" option thing. One of the major problems people have with that is that you tend to have three choices, and of those you have the paragon (good), the neutral, and the renegade (evil) option. Then there's the whole thing that, based on this, you earn your companions love, which can be problematic because some of the time certain characters won't work with you if another character is in the party. And if you don't earn enough affection with the character they leave. So you have to always monitor where the love level is with your character.

I would think something more like the persona route could work? Maybe scenes happen if you do various tasks. As for the Avatar's customization, I would think that clothing, looks, some aspect of their personality, could work for this, rather than them being too customizable. Even with Bioware and other games that let you go hog wild with designs, you still have aspects that are preprogramed into the character.

[Radiant head]

Well its true that Shinon has his reasons to do what he does. As you say he's limited by his social status and thinks Ike doesn't deserve to be the leader for being Ike's son, but I never really found myself on Shinon's side in any argument, mostly because of the way how he presents himself.

Others in the game touch on the same subjects, such as Ulki explaining why relying so much on birth isn't a good idea in wars and the like, but he manages to get those things across without appearing to be so unlikeable in my eyes.

Well whether you agreed with him or found he was likable or not, the point is that Shinon wasn't just some strawman to make Ike look good. However flawed of a character he may be, the game doesn't dismiss or invalidate his dissenting perspective of the lead character.

[Alazen]

Shinon never goes back on his contempt for Ike. Other Characters around him might disapprove, but they don't go out of their way to shame him for not worshiping Ike.