What do you think of the story in the Tellius games?

[Etrurian emperor]

The same game claims that he and Micaiah did are damn near equivalent to what Ike and Elincia did in Path of Radiance. In that case, why the hell didn't the senate at least attempt to get Elincia tricked into signing the Blood Pact? It's not like the things weren't invented yet thanks to how Naesala and Ashnard are handled

If I had to guess then its because at the time of POR the senate was led by the more mild Sephiran while the signing of the blood pact may have taken place after the takeover of Lekain and Co.

Elincia also didn't have a Senators lapdog like Izuka as his most trusted advisor either.

[Augestein]

I think we've reached an impasse here: you're really not convincing me, and I don't think anything I say will change your mind either.

To me, the problem isn't only that Azura doesn't talk, it's that she's even fine with invading Hoshido and killing the people she grew up with and not solve anything in the long term - how is the world going to protect itself from Anankos when Hoshido is in ruins and Azura is gone? The only other three with knowledge of Valla leave as well; when playing Birthright or Conquest, you're playing the canonically wrong choice that dooms the world, and this is in a game that was supposed to be about choice.

It's also worth keeping in mind that Azura is NOT the only one who could do something about this; Inigo, Severa and Owain, whose only reason for being there is to stop Anankos, are fine with murdering innocents as well without doing anything to try and improve the situation.

Keep in mind, I also think the Blood Pact is awful, but it doesn't come anywhere near the plot curse of Valla, which just exists and doesn't actually get explained in the slightest. Not only that, but unlike in Radiant Dawn, characters hardly react to it - hell, characters don't react or talk about anything; there's no main story dialogue in the game aside from exposition and plot related talk. There's no chemistry between the characters.

Seems like it.

Well considering what happened to her afterward in Hoshido and the fact that the soldiers almost killed her, it makes some sense actually. And she adopts the "legion of stupid" paradigm that Corrin supports. This might also be because I have special edition, but I'm fine with you having choices in a game that are *wrong* and the game lets you play the entire game instead of just saying "nope, you're wrong, lol you died." I mean RD is guilty of this as well with a certain choice that blocks you out of a unit and it FORCES you to take it your first playthrough. It also has the fortune of disbarring you from getting a single dark using tome user your first playthrough because... Reasons?

As for the three characters from Awakening? Come on, let's look at this losers for a minute here. What were they supposed to be doing in Awakening? I assure you, not what any of them were doing. Sadly, it's consistent with their characters from Awakening (for better or worse).

Thing is, characters know about the BP, but kind of shrug about it being super secretive about it for no real reason. At least they learned with Valla's curse and made it a plot point that you can't just shout it to the heavens or you blow up I guess. And the characters don't react to it for the most part because it's kind of difficult to react to something you don't know about.

If I had to guess then its because at the time of POR the senate was led by the more mild Sephiran while the signing of the blood pact may have taken place after the takeover of Lekain and Co.

But... He would want that to happen. That's the issue.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Augestein

[Thane]

Thing is, characters know about the BP, but kind of shrug about it being super secretive about it for no real reason. At least they learned with Valla's curse and made it a plot point that you can't just shout it to the heavens or you blow up I guess. And the characters don't react to it for the most part because it's kind of difficult to react to something you don't know about.

This is a good segue into one of my favorite complaints about Fates: character reactions and interactions. Outside of the prologue, can you think of anything they talk about that isn't connected to exposition or the story? Why don't they talk about Corrin's ability to become a dragon, why don't the families support the decision they've made, why aren't there any moments in which Corrin feels like a stranger because they joined a family they don't know, etc. Where is the chemistry between these characters, and why should I care about any of them if they might as well be cardboard? The death of Mikoto might as well never have happened since it's hardly ever brought up again, unlike in Path of Radiance where a lot of people grieved for Greil's death which even lead to Shinon and Gatrie leaving.

I can remember a grand total of one scene in which they decide to talk about something else, and that's in Conquest before Corrin heads off to another mission, and Leo and Elise bicker a bit.

In Radiant Dawn, they discuss strategy, politics, racism, what the characters have been up to since the Mad King's war, and thanks to the base conversations there's always a sense of progression; in Fates, it's one direct route to the finish line with no small victories to be had on the way there, and most characters just fade into the background, most notably the sisters.

It's a worse version of my issues with Path of Radiance in that the script is so devoid of emotion, but in Fates there's not even attempts at worldbuilding or anything, really. It's an on-rails experience with boring characters that fade into the background and only exist to give Corrin a power boost when needed.

As for the three characters from Awakening? Come on, let's look at this losers for a minute here. What were they supposed to be doing in Awakening? I assure you, not what any of them were doing. Sadly, it's consistent with their characters from Awakening (for better or worse).

This is not even an argument. Those kids went back in time to save the world and succeeded, and would never hurt innocents, yet there they are in Conquest, murdering people even though they know who the true villain is.

It's not consistent with how they were in Awakening. That's not up for debate.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Thane

[Augestein]

I can see that. I don't think it's that PoR is devoid of emotion, it's just that the characters speak very frank and mater-of-fact in the game. The localization is simply top-notch in RD. Very crisp, and clear. I get what's happening in RD, and as I said before, I don't feel like I ever read anything where I thought "what?"

Funny you mention Greil's death, there's even a version of the script with Shinon or Gatire dead for each of them respectively. In the Shinon dead version, there's implications that Gatrie leaves not because of Ike, but he just sadly wonders off because his commander AND his best friend died with a week. So it leaves something a little bit more interesting: Gatire didn't seem to have any real personal problems with Ike like Shinon had. And I agree, little things like this are definitely lacking in Fates.

And yeah, bases in PoR and RD worked wonders for world building in PoR - RD. Problem with Fates is that it's awfully filled with dialogue for a game that says so little with talking so much. That I can agree on.

[Quintessence]

Yes, and it's the same for the Valla curse in Fates. It's simply to make the characters not immediately charge down the canyon with both the entire forces of Hoshido and Nohr and wreck Anankos immediately. BP retroactively states that it's what causes Ashnard to get to where he is in PoR, it's responsible for Naesala's actions in PoR apparently. What happens with Valla's curse is literally the same type of writing. The difference is that pretty much all of the conflict in RD basically degenerates to "the senate." The same cannot be said about the conflicts in Fates. Hoshido and Nohr already have bad ties with each other, and as far as the history that seems apparent in Fates, they have never had particularly good ties.

Yes, and MC Productions brings up a good point as well. Why wasn't the BP used on Elincia? Could they just read better or something? Would she even know how to recognize a BP to not sign it? How would one even refuse to sign a blood pact, because to normal eyes it'd look like they were refusing to sign an alliance / for peace.

Pelleas is a better character than Corrin by virtue of not being an avatar character. Mark is like the only good one.

And with the BP, there's no reason to not have someone like Jill, Zihark, Sothe, Tauroneo, or even Volug go back over to Ike's team and just plain say "Psst, there's a blood pact that's why they fight." The only thing to "stop" this is "we have invisible spies." I mean, freaking really? Really now? Weak. Like weaker than Azura not talking weak. Azura being stupid is a flaw, but stupidity isn't a plothole. Just the character being a complete moron. The only thing we get is that it might do is that it might kill at a rate of X number of people for X number of days. Killing the senates team and fixing the blood pact would definitely kill less than random deaths of soldiers from the BP. Even with it there, doing nothing would potentially kill slower than participating in a freaking war. And how long would the senate actually last against ... The entire continent? Part 4 demonstrates this: not long at all, and these were super goddess blessed senate followers as well.

Iirc Ashnard's motives wasn't the Blood Pact since it was Pelleas who signed it. Ashnard's story was about ambition, power and chaos, hence why he seeks the power of Yune on Lehran's Medallion. Naesala's actions are intriguing as hell, he is allied like with everyone for the sake of Kilvas, he helps the Senate, helps the Heron royals, helps Ike, etc. The Blood Pact has impact on PoR through Naesala not through Daein. Sephiran just took advantage of Ashnard.

Why would the Senate bring up a Blood Pact to Crimea? At first, people thought only Raymon and Renning were Crimea's royalty, as Elincia was kept hidden. Raymon died, and Renning was captured and was feral'd by Izuka and manipulated to become a Four Rider. After the events on PoR, Elincia is a grown up and strong character, well developped, mature and has a splendid advisor/retainers as are Lucia, Geoffrey but above all Bastian. So Elincia would've never fallen to such guile. On the other hand, Pelleas was the perfect target, a weak character, who lived a secluded live and had Izuka on his side, which was working for the senate since the beginning. So the Senate trying to tie Crimea with the Blood Pact is not a good point, at all. Kilvas fell for the Pact because of Naesala naturally is, and even then, he was favoured with Lekain's death by Endgame, so pro.

I do recognize that Blood Pact was terribly handled, but was a nice approach. As far as I know, only Pelleas knew, he told Micaiah, Sothe, Tauroneo and Almedha after that, and instead of seeking help from Sanaki, they refused and offered resistance by fighting the Laguz Alliance. The Blood Pact was used as the climax to awaken Ashera and release Yune from the Medallion, and thus, trigger Part 4.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Quintessence

[Augestein]

Iirc Ashnard's motives wasn't the Blood Pact since it was Pelleas who signed it. Ashnard's story was about ambition, power and chaos, hence why he seeks the power of Yune on Lehran's Medallion. Naesala's actions are intriguing as hell, he is allied like with everyone for the sake of Kilvas, he helps the Senate, helps the Heron royals, helps Ike, etc. The Blood Pact has impact on PoR through Naesala not through Daein. Sephiran just took advantage of Ashnard.

Ashnard used the bloodpact to rise to power.

Why would the Senate bring up a Blood Pact to Crimea? At first, people thought only Raymon and Renning were Crimea's royalty, as Elincia was kept hidden. Raymon died, and Renning was captured and was feral'd by Izuka and manipulated to become a Four Rider. After the events on PoR, Elincia is a grown up and strong character, well developped, mature and has a splendid advisor/retainers as are Lucia, Geoffrey but above all Bastian. So Elincia would've never fallen to such guile. On the other hand, Pelleas was the perfect target, a weak character, who lived a secluded live and had Izuka on his side, which was working for the senate since the beginning. So the Senate trying to tie Crimea with the Blood Pact is not a good point, at all. Kilvas fell for the Pact because of Naesala naturally is, and even then, he was favoured with Lekain's death by Endgame, so pro.

Because having Elincia even more under your thumb would be even better. Elincia's character has nothing to do with it. If you sign the blood pact, you're obligated to do their bidding, and had they done that. I see no reason why you wouldn't have tried. Like... There's no reason to not try to get anyone to try to sign a bloodpact. They could have effectively ruled every Beorc country at that point.

I do recognize that Blood Pact was terribly handled, but was a nice approach. As far as I know, only Pelleas knew, he told Micaiah, Sothe, Tauroneo and Almedha after that, and instead of seeking help from Sanaki, they refused and offered resistance by fighting the Laguz Alliance. The Blood Pact was used as the climax to awaken Ashera and release Yune from the Medallion, and thus, trigger Part 4.

But it isn't a nice approach. Pelleas knew, and there's no reason that Sothe or Tauroneo couldn't have left and told the other team. None. Especially because both were already associated with Ike, and Jill and Zihark can potentially defect, so it's not as though other people couldn't defect either. Especially when Sothe had already spoken out about discontent with Pelleas' decision to fight-- Micaiah as well. Micaiah even said that Sothe could leave if he wanted to. And refusing to seek help and instead dying or fighting a war with no actual hope / or plan for getting out of the BP is almost as mind blowing stupid as Corrin's plan to destroy Hoshido to not destroy Hoshido (with Corrin's being slightly less dumb, because at least the story acknowledges that (s)he is siding with their emotions rather than logically). I know what the BP was used for, it's used for about as weak of a reason that CQ and BR are: people don't want to talk because if they did, it would rip the plot in half. The issue with RD is that it has Part 1 kind of thrown to a void because there's no reason for them to gain independence if they can't actually express independence and are still under Begnion's thumb. Part 2 serves no purpose for the overarching plot. Seriously, Part 2 could have been a series of Gaidens or trial maps they are so irrelevant to the actual story. Characters like Brom, Nephenee, and Haar just kind of join because "why not." There really isn't a reason for them. And Part 3 degenerates into madness because of one poorly thought out plot point to make no one "wrong" but these evil one dimensional senators. Part 4 serves as a ceasefire if only to allow both teams to join up without the stupid BP actually being able to do anything-- which really doesn't make sense, because activated, you'd think it'd STILL have a chance to kill Micaiah and co. I mean, can it target people that are petrified and "miss" because petrify overrides death? I mean seriously, it's honestly worse just as bad, if not worse than Valla's curse.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Augestein

[Quintessence]

Because having Elincia even more under your thumb would be even better. Elincia's character has nothing to do with it. If you sign the blood pact, you're obligated to do their bidding, and had they done that. I see no reason why you wouldn't have tried. Like... There's no reason to not try to get anyone to try to sign a bloodpact. They could have effectively ruled every Beorc country at that point.

But it isn't a nice approach. Pelleas knew, and there's no reason that Sothe or Tauroneo couldn't have left and told the other team. None. Especially because both were already associated with Ike, and Jill and Zihark can potentially defect, so it's not as though other people couldn't defect either. Especially when Sothe had already spoken out about discontent with Pelleas' decision to fight-- Micaiah as well. Micaiah even said that Sothe could leave if he wanted to. And refusing to seek help and instead dying or fighting a war with no actual hope / or plan for getting out of the BP is almost as mind blowing stupid as Corrin's plan to destroy Hoshido to not destroy Hoshido (with Corrin's being slightly less dumb, because at least the story acknowledges that (s)he is siding with their emotions rather than logically). I know what the BP was used for, it's used for about as weak of a reason that CQ and BR are: people don't want to talk because if they did, it would rip the plot in half. The issue with RD is that it has Part 1 kind of thrown to a void because there's no reason for them to gain independence if they can't actually express independence and are still under Begnion's thumb. Part 2 serves no purpose for the overarching plot. Seriously, Part 2 could have been a series of Gaidens or trial maps they are so irrelevant to the actual story. Characters like Brom, Nephenee, and Haar just kind of join because "why not." There really isn't a reason for them. And Part 3 degenerates into madness because of one poorly thought out plot point to make no one "wrong" but these evil one dimensional senators. Part 4 serves as a ceasefire if only to allow both teams to join up without the stupid BP actually being able to do anything-- which really doesn't make sense, because activated, you'd think it'd STILL have a chance to kill Micaiah and co. I mean, can it target people that are petrified and "miss" because petrify overrides death? I mean seriously, it's honestly worse just as bad, if not worse than Valla's curse.

You're missing the 'if'. 2 parties have to be in agreement to sign the Pact. A BP between Senate and Crimea would have never been a thing, that's undebateable. That's like asking why didn't the Senate forced Gallia, Phoenicis or Goldoa into the pact? Do you trully think Caineghis, Tibarn or Deghinsea would've been tricked like how Pelleas or Ashnard's father were? No. They're smart, have advisors and have a grudge against Begnion for treating Laguz as slaves during a time.

Part 1's efforts do seem worthless with the Pact, but it is used to give rise to Pelleas and Micaiah as Daein leaders. Part 2 introduced the GMs after all. Also, I think RD's idea would've been ruined if Daein would've revealed the Pact and seeked advice from the Laguz Alliance or Sanaki. In that case, all forces would've rushed to Begnion and kill the Senators, end of story with Yune still being kept imprisoned in the Medallion and Ashera enjoying her deep slumber. It would've been like PoR 2.0, without solving anything at all. On the other hand, the clash between the goddesses bring back Ashunera and an era of peace.

[Acacia Sgt]

You're missing the 'if'. 2 parties have to be in agreement to sign the Pact. A BP between Senate and Crimea would have never been a thing, that's undebateable. That's like asking why didn't the Senate forced Gallia, Phoenicis or Goldoa into the pact? Do you trully think Caineghis, Tibarn or Deghinsea would've been tricked like how Pelleas or Ashnard's father were? No. They're smart, have advisors and have a grudge against Begnion for treating Laguz as slaves during a time.

Part 1's efforts do seem worthless with the Pact, but it is used to give rise to Pelleas and Micaiah as Daein leaders. Part 2 introduced the GMs after all. Also, I think RD's idea would've been ruined if Daein would've revealed the Pact and seeked advice from the Laguz Alliance or Sanaki. In that case, all forces would've rushed to Begnion and kill the Senators, end of story with Yune still being kept imprisoned in the Medallion and Ashera enjoying her deep slumber. It would've been like PoR 2.0, without solving anything at all. On the other hand, the clash between the goddesses bring back Ashunera and an era of peace.

To be fair, though, how much are BP's known exactly anyway? It took Pelleas a good while to find a book that talked about it. And even then I think it was stated he found it in a hidden area. It doesn't matter how smart you are if you don't have the knowledge to use your smartness. It's unlikely a BP document would say BLOOD PACT at the top, or the whole "If you don't fulfill this, your people will die via magic curse" thing would be in the text. Otherwise Pelleas or Naesala's predecedor would've figure it out before signing.

I don't think it would've ruined it. In fact, I think it would've added some more drama. After all, Lekain told Pelleas of the BP by using the Elwarp Staff and speak in detail about it. Since they need the actual document and kill Lekain... what are the chances Lekain would grab the document and hide by warping, then warping elsewhere when needed? It would prolong the time to find him (Tellius is a big place, after all), and by then, just how much of Daein would be left to save? That's quite a big risk to take, I'd say.

Besides, by that point, pretty much everyone but Daein was already going after the Senators. Ashera would've woke up anyway.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Acacia Sgt

[BrightBow]

To be fair, though, how much are BP's known exactly anyway? It took Pelleas a good while to find a book that talked about it. And even then I think it was stated he found it in a hidden area. It doesn't matter how smart you are if you don't have the knowledge to use your smartness. It's unlikely a BP document would say BLOOD PACT at the top, or the whole "If you don't fulfill this, your people will die via magic curse" thing would be in the text. Otherwise Pelleas or Naesala's predecedor would've figure it out before signing..

It doesn't really matter how well known Blood Pacts are. I mean, the reason they are called Blood Pacts is because they actually are signed with blood, as the extended script clarifies.

From http://serenesforest.net/radiant-dawn/scripts/game-script/part-3-chapter-12-the-price/extended/

Lekain:“Would an ordinary loan contract really require a signature in blood? Did you truly not suspect a thing?”

Needless to say, I doubt that many people would be as foolish as Pelleas was. And most certainly none of the rulers of the other nations.

Edited June 21, 2016 by BrightBow

[Quintessence]

To be fair, though, how much are BP's known exactly anyway? It took Pelleas a good while to find a book that talked about it. And even then I think it was stated he found it in a hidden area. It doesn't matter how smart you are if you don't have the knowledge to use your smartness. It's unlikely a BP document would say BLOOD PACT at the top, or the whole "If you don't fulfill this, your people will die via magic curse" thing would be in the text. Otherwise Pelleas or Naesala's predecedor would've figure it out before signing.

I don't think it would've ruined it. In fact, I think it would've added some more drama. After all, Lekain told Pelleas of the BP by using the Elwarp Staff and speak in detail about it. Since they need the actual document and kill Lekain... what are the chances Lekain would grab the document and hide by warping, then warping elsewhere when needed? It would prolong the time to find him (Tellius is a big place, after all), and by then, just how much of Daein would be left to save? That's quite a big risk to take, I'd say.

Besides, by that point, pretty much everyone but Daein was already going after the Senators. Ashera would've woke up anyway.

But Lekain himself says that common people know that it's not a standard to sign contracts with blood, but rather it is a standard to sign Blood Pacts, which leads me to think that it is not a secret habit or something you need a book on a secret library to find out. It still doesn't make sense to bring up why Lekain didn't take control of Tellius via Blood Pacts because it is not a possibility given each nation's leader. History dates that all Blood Pacts were active due to leaders being tricked by either Lekain, Sephiran or Izuka.

Edit: Thanks to BrightBow for quoting.

The idea of an escapist Lekain doesn't convince me, while it is a possibility he's airs of grandeur and pride will make him face them as a Disciple of Order. It would've been a tense period but prolonging the effect of the curse is imo not a good idea as a replace for how things happen in RD.

What I see convincing of the BP is that the number of forces of Chaos are higher with the BP rather than without it. Suppose all of Tellius fight the Senators and Sephiran, it would be only a force of Chaos against the Senate, and the Laguz Alliance with Daein and Sanaki would've had a force of Order. While with the BP, Daein faced Sanaki's army and the Laguz Alliance. I mean, taking 3-12 as a reference, look at how many chaotic situations occur: Holy Guards being grounded by oil, CRKs decimated, Ike appears and Tibarn then attempts on killing Sothe, the amount of Chaos is higher and enough to awaken Yune. In the other scenario, Yune will hardly awaken since it basically replicates PoR's battle against Daein.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Quintessence

[Acacia Sgt]

Sure, as a Disciple of Order he wouldn't think of running away. Besides, with almost all of Daein turned to stone there was little point in activating the BP anyway. Now, had Ashera not awaken and the Senate was loosing? Now there I do see Lekain going into hiding.

I wouldn't say it would've become a force of Order. Besides, I don't think it would matter who was on each side, as long chaos was being created from the battle. There also seems to be some general guidelines as well. Despite Deghinsea and his efforts to ensure Goldoan neutrality, it only took just Kurth alone being on the battlefield to subvert that (although I forgot, I know Ena was around, but was she fighting already? I know she's not a PC yet, but as an NPC? Still, that's just two out of... lots of dragons). Or Nailah and Volug alone counting for Hatari, despite the rest of them being very likely not even being aware of what's going on the other side of the desert.

Not to mention, at this point the Senate had pretty much stopped fighting. Since 3-11 it had been the Laguz + Crimea + Sanaki against only Daein. By Part 3 Endgame things had pretty much indeed turned like PoR's final battle. Even more or less down to the same factions on each side.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Acacia Sgt

[Quintessence]

Sure, as a Disciple of Order he wouldn't think of running away. Besides, with almost all of Daein turned to stone there was little point in activating the BP anyway. Now, had Ashera not awaken and the Senate was loosing? Now there I do see Lekain going into hiding.

I wouldn't say it would've become a force of Order. Besides, I don't think it would matter who was on each side, as long chaos was being created from the battle. There also seems to be some general guidelines as well. Despite Deghinsea and his efforts to ensure Goldoan neutrality, it only took just Kurth alone being on the battlefield to subvert that (although I forgot, I know Ena was around, but was she fighting already? I know she's not a PC yet, but as an NPC? Still, that's just two out of... lots of dragons). Or Nailah and Volug alone counting for Hatari, despite the rest of them being very likely not even being aware of what's going on the other side of the desert.

Not to mention, at this point the Senate had pretty much stopped fighting. Since 3-11 it had been the Laguz + Crimea + Sanaki against only Daein. By Part 3 Endgame things had pretty much indeed turned like PoR's final battle. Even more or less down to the same factions on each side.

Thing is, if there's no BP shitter, then Ashera wouldn't have awaken and petrified all of Tellius, leading to a possible curse activation or plague spread or whatever. However, as Naesala did, Daein would've just allied with Sanaki and the Holy Guard and the curse would've been ineffective because Sanaki has a higher rank than Lekain and it would be as if Daein is trully doing what Begnion orders, with Sanaki as a head.

The idea of the continent being engulfed in war is to have all countries on war among them, but not polarized war and rather have lots of them at the same time, which imo leads to Ashera/Yune, else I would see another Mad King's War.

[Acacia Sgt]

I'd still say the BP is still not a hard-coded way to make Ashera wake up. It could've happened otherwise. Heck, I could still see Daein helping Begnion out, but with a different reasoning. 3-6 and 3-11 highlighted it somewhat.

In 3-6, it's shown most of Daein is still racist towards Laguz. However, the Begnion Occupation Army spent 3 years treating the nation like dirt. So why the people of Daein are now fine working for Begnion? Is it only because they're gonna fight Laguz? I think there was the potential for further stuff to be be fleshed out here. Then, 3-11 shows that many also believed in the Senate claiming Sanaki was a false Apostle, which was indeed the truth, but it still shows that Daein, or at least it's populace, wasn't just fighting becuase of the BP. So the BP no longer becomes a needed way to have Daein fight for Begnion. In the end, the writers put more focus on the BP, than to flesh out the other reasons there could be.

Also, there's no confirmation Daein could've side-stepped the curse the same way Kilvas did. Two different documents, chances could be or not that Lekain worded Daein's differently precisely to avoid that. Or if anything, it was within the ability of the writers to make things that way to explain why X is possible and/or why Y isn't possible, etc. In fact, the extended script of 4-E-1 shows that Kilvas's curse can't be broken, unlike Daein's, even if Lekain is dead and the document is in Naesala's hands. It will remain dormant, sure, but not dispelled. So the two pacts are indeed not the same.

Also, the thing about waking Ashera up was the whole condition was indeed rooted in chaos coming from everywhere. But the main trigger was Laguz vs Beorc conflict. That was what they promised to the goddess they would avoid. The big difference between here and the Mad King's War, was that there was indeed a big Laguz vs Beorc aspect. Back then in the MKW it was Laguz supporting a Beorc vs Beorc conflict. Here, despite being Beorc supporting the Laguz, it was still a big Laguz vs Beorc war. So it wouldn't matter if it was against Daein, or the Senate. Once the chaos had gone big enough, Ashera would've woke up.

Edited June 22, 2016 by Acacia Sgt

[Augestein]

You're missing the 'if'. 2 parties have to be in agreement to sign the Pact. A BP between Senate and Crimea would have never been a thing, that's undebateable. That's like asking why didn't the Senate forced Gallia, Phoenicis or Goldoa into the pact? Do you trully think Caineghis, Tibarn or Deghinsea would've been tricked like how Pelleas or Ashnard's father were? No. They're smart, have advisors and have a grudge against Begnion for treating Laguz as slaves during a time.

Part 1's efforts do seem worthless with the Pact, but it is used to give rise to Pelleas and Micaiah as Daein leaders. Part 2 introduced the GMs after all. Also, I think RD's idea would've been ruined if Daein would've revealed the Pact and seeked advice from the Laguz Alliance or Sanaki. In that case, all forces would've rushed to Begnion and kill the Senators, end of story with Yune still being kept imprisoned in the Medallion and Ashera enjoying her deep slumber. It would've been like PoR 2.0, without solving anything at all. On the other hand, the clash between the goddesses bring back Ashunera and an era of peace.

I know that they need both. My point is, what is Elincia going to do about Begnion's might? Say "no?" I mean, she already has her hands tied with facing the senators in Part 3 because Begnion is already its sovereign state. There's a reason I didn't mention the laguz here. Begnion doesn't have anything on them but slaves-- of which aren't actually citizens of any of the countries themselves. There's also the fact that the pact requires Pelleas to be heinously stupid to the point that not even a brick would be dumb enough to think you'd actually need to sign a signature in blood. Even the extended script finds this to be absolutely preposterous. Calling your own plot point ridiculous as a writer doesn't somehow make it not ridiculous. And while stupidity isn't a plothole, this isn't even just a standard spat of stupid here; I'm surprised that Pelleas can even remember how to walk.

And what you've mentioned here is the one of the primary reasons that I find RD's plot to be a massive disaster of a plot. Micaiah and Pelleas are literally unnecessary for the game. Why do they need to be here at all? I don't even hate Micaiah or Pelleas, but this just demonstrates how completely pointless they are. Hell, by part 4, Micaiah isn't even really a character anymore so much as she is a walking plot device-- like she literally could have been an item or possessed Leanne instead. Part 2 introduced the GMs? Not necessary. Part 1 literally had Tormod and company go to the Laguz Alliance with Rafiel and inform the laguz of the treachery that happened which even kicks part 3 into motion. Ranulf then visits Ike to hire him as additional soldiers. Part 2 is useless. So is Part 1 because of the way Part 3 is written, and then Part 4 just takes a dump all over everything that happened beforehand and somehow handwaves peace afterward despite the fact that there's still conflicts to be had.

[Quintessence]

I'd still say the BP is still not a hard-coded way to make Ashera wake up. It could've happened otherwise. Heck, I could still see Daein helping Begnion out, but with a different reasoning. 3-6 and 3-11 highlighted it somewhat.

And what you've mentioned here is the one of the primary reasons that I find RD's plot to be a massive disaster of a plot. Micaiah and Pelleas are literally unnecessary for the game. Why do they need to be here at all? I don't even hate Micaiah or Pelleas, but this just demonstrates how completely pointless they are. Hell, by part 4, Micaiah isn't even really a character anymore so much as she is a walking plot device-- like she literally could have been an item or possessed Leanne instead. Part 2 introduced the GMs? Not necessary. Part 1 literally had Tormod and company go to the Laguz Alliance with Rafiel and inform the laguz of the treachery that happened which even kicks part 3 into motion. Ranulf then visits Ike to hire him as additional soldiers. Part 2 is useless. So is Part 1 because of the way Part 3 is written, and then Part 4 just takes a dump all over everything that happened beforehand and somehow handwaves peace afterward despite the fact that there's still conflicts to be had.

I'll answer both replies with this quote, from Sephiran vs Pelleas on 4-E-4:

Sephiran: King Pelleas, correct? Aren’t you brave, coming all this way!

Pelleas: If you’re the one who’s been pulling the strings behind all this, please tell me... Who... Who am I?

Sephiran: ..I don’t know. All I know is that you are a powerful practitioner of magic... I know that you were an orphan born and raised in Daein. But that is all Izuka ever told me.

Pelleas: So... I’m not Ashnard’s true son?

Sephiran: No, you’re not. Ashnard’s son is of dragon tribe blood and is thus branded.

Pelleas: I think I’m going to be ill...

Sephiran: Be assured that you were essential to Daein’s reconstruction, which was a vital step toward waking the goddess. Fortunately, Izuka was able to use you to execute my plan.

Pelleas: You are going to pay! You are going to... BLAAARRRGH!

Sephiran itself states Pelleas's role for waking up Ashera, Daein's reconstruction, his coronation, the loan (blood) pact, Izuka, everything was needed to fulfill Sephiran's plans, so Pelleas, and by that extension, Micaiah are key to the game. Heck, if Micaiah's not there then everything would've turned worse.

The question is, if you take out Part 2, what will people ask about the continuity of Crimea as a reborn nation? Do you think it makes sense to delete Part 2? Story wise it doesn't have a major impact but it does serve for the final events of the game, see 3-12 and Renning, for example. Part 1 is the basis of everything so it should stay.

I know that they need both. My point is, what is Elincia going to do about Begnion's might? Say "no?" I mean, she already has her hands tied with facing the senators in Part 3 because Begnion is already its sovereign state. There's a reason I didn't mention the laguz here. Begnion doesn't have anything on them but slaves-- of which aren't actually citizens of any of the countries themselves. There's also the fact that the pact requires Pelleas to be heinously stupid to the point that not even a brick would be dumb enough to think you'd actually need to sign a signature in blood. Even the extended script finds this to be absolutely preposterous. Calling your own plot point ridiculous as a writer doesn't somehow make it not ridiculous. And while stupidity isn't a plothole, this isn't even just a standard spat of stupid here; I'm surprised that Pelleas can even remember how to walk.

Elincia already received support from Sanaki and she would've called for help with her. Elincia has the aid of pretty much everyone on Tellius asides Daein and Begnion's Central Army, so a BP would've been like accelerating the Senate's doom.

[Acacia Sgt]

In the end, though, the BP's only tangible use was to ensure Daein would enter into the conflict on Begnion's side so it could prolong the conflict. The game has shown Daein itself motivated well enough. In fact, I think it would've been interesting if Micaiah and co. had actually talked that pulling out wouldn't be easy, not just because of the BP, but because the people of Daein itself wouldn't want to.

The BP itself kinda falls flat when Daein itself never even learned of the BP. To them, they're not fighting because a curse will kill their country if they don't. They fight because of their racism to the Laguz. They fight because they worship Micaiah too much to question it since she never speaks to them about stopping. They fight because they believe the Senate when they claim Sanaki is not the Apostle, and then see things that make them think they're right (for example, the 3-11 boss talks about the true Apostle wouldn't mingle with Laguz).

In the end, the BP was only really used to enter Daein in to the war. The writers were free to use any other method, and things would've remained mostly the same. They controlled how the flow of the story would go, after all. They can also come up with ways to explain why Daein couldn't just leave after joining.

As a personal aside, I'd say that I like that. The people of Daein aren't fighting because a magic curse is coercing them. They fight under their own violition. They fight with tangible reasons, good or bad they may be. It was their own choice to go with it. The only thing I question is them being so quick to forgive Begnion for the 3 years of occupation. But that aside, I like the rest.

Heck, in the end, the BP is actually not much of a problem (although personally, the things I actually think about stuff like the BP... I'd rather not say here). The problem is the focus it receives. At least, if they're not gonna have the people of Daein itself know about it, at least they could bring up their own reasons for fighting more to the forefront than just the main characters going on about the BP.

This makes me wonder, though. Do we even know what the ravens thought when Naesala had them betray the Alliance? From what we heard, they went through with it in the end. But what were they thinking? What did they thought after? What motivated them to drop their anger for the Serenes Massacre and side with Begnion? Did they even dropped their anger? What were they even doing anyway? Since unless I'm remembering wrong, we only ever hear of them betraying the Alliance, then we actually never hear of the ravens again until Naesala shows up with Sanaki in 3-E, and just him. The ravens pretty much go AWOL.

Edited June 22, 2016 by Acacia Sgt

[Quintessence]

It would've been interesting to draw other reasons aside from the BP, I agree.

By the way, I don't know much about the ravens since it wasn't addressed in depth in the game, maybe due to the lack of ravens as playable characters. PoR depicts the ravens more towards the evil rather than the good, although Elincia herself says by Ch 12 that it's dumb to naturally say one tribe is evil and one tribe is good, since it'd be like saying some Beorc are naturally evil and some are not.

[Augestein]

Sephiran itself states Pelleas's role for waking up Ashera, Daein's reconstruction, his coronation, the loan (blood) pact, Izuka, everything was needed to fulfill Sephiran's plans, so Pelleas, and by that extension, Micaiah are key to the game. Heck, if Micaiah's not there then everything would've turned worse.

The question is, if you take out Part 2, what will people ask about the continuity of Crimea as a reborn nation? Do you think it makes sense to delete Part 2? Story wise it doesn't have a major impact but it does serve for the final events of the game, see 3-12 and Renning, for example. Part 1 is the basis of everything so it should stay.

Which still doesn't make Part 1 important at all. That literally could have happened in the 3 year time gap we get from PoR -> RD. It serves literally no purpose as part of the story in RD. And considering the BP signing, Pelleas' coronation, AND Daein's actual reconstruction happen off-screen (which truthfully, Daein isn't even truly reconstructed, so this is just nonsense from Sephrian, because the reason that Micaiah doesn't even resist much is because it *just* got its freedom and will fall apart in its state that it is in which would contradict the status of the country and her reasons for not resisting more against Pelleas' decision). But even Tibarn kinda calls him out on this and says "you're not the bad guy you want us to believe." As in Sephiran didn't do nearly as much as he proclaims and that it's more bait to anger everyone to kill him more than anything else. Like... There's nothing that Sephiran realistically could have manipulated and planned, as the original plan was simply to have Ashnard get the "dark god" revived. Part 1 is essentially PoR 2.0 with Micaiah being some weird combo of Elincia and Ike. And yeah, gotta agree with Arcaia here. The fact of the matter is that the BP wasn't needed because Daein itself was more than happy to fight. Would have simply been better if Pelleas just hated Laguz that much and was willing to simply fight in the war and Micaiah, his lead general, was worried about it. BP is just...

Garbage. Like more trash than that dang curse IMO, because events become less about the character motivations and become "I have no choice, this pact binds me and makes me do things I don't want to." Hidden Truths I'm not even sure why they added, because it makes the story worse in that regard, because it merely adds more people to act like Azura and everyone else with the blood pact. It would have made for sense for them to be with Hoshido to defeat Garon.

Gaidens. They could have literally been a side story. It's by no means mandatory. Like Ike's memory scene. Not necessary for the plot, but I guess it's interesting to know.

Elincia already received support from Sanaki and she would've called for help with her. Elincia has the aid of pretty much everyone on Tellius asides Daein and Begnion's Central Army, so a BP would've

been like accelerating the Senate's doom.

Which is bizarre why Daein doesn't do it either. BP would have just randomly killed people in Crimea. How would that not be useful? It's literally a curse that just results in people dying each day. This is why an explanation for the BP is far more important than Valla's Curse. Valla's Curse is "you talk about it, you die." Short and simple. BP is "you can talk about it and there's no problem, but some guy has to activate it I guess in order for it to randomly select people that might be from your country, but not if they renounce their citizenship, so it's not even clear if it attacks the people in the country itself or people that hold relationships with the signer of some sort." Like the BP is just gross.

[Quintessence]

Well I don't know what to say. Sephiran is desperate for seeing a new world and he schemed most events and also bait with words most of the important characters just because death is his liberation from his suffering. Daein's reconstruction is just a saying, they retake control of the capital but are subject to the Senate's orders, but iirc the Pact occurs after Part 1.

What makes Blood Pact as a story element different in my eyes than Valla curse is that it is actually developed, rather than being lifeless and inert like Valla Curse. And this is where I fully agree with Thane, the Blood Pact is developed, it has history, it has a background, lore, but above all, characters react to it and act accordingly to it, making it an element with life. Micaiah, Pelleas, Sothe, Tauroneo and Almedha are aware of it, Pelleas doesn't sit back in resignation as Corrin and actually tries to find a way to dispell it and undo the pact, he chooses to die at first even as a means to break the curse, and then he just finds a way through Kurthnaga. Sothe even tries to grab Micaiah and escape from it but Micaiah doesn't stand Daein being in peril.

But in Fates look at what we have. Corrin is a mess with the issue, Azura is worse and on top of that we have three Awakening characters that make no sense. They are fully aware of the curse and have zero impact on the story, and none of the above react or interact with the Valla Curse. Granted, I didn't play Revelations, but I highly doubt the subject was addressed differently than Conquest. The difference here is that we have a story element that is used as a 'card under the sleeve' but is still lifeless and inert; there's no interaction with it, it's like a latent menace and prohibition that people just ignore it and pass on. While the Blood Pact promotes interaction, and gives itself importance and impact. Hence why I'll always rank Blood Pact as a better instrument than Valla Curse.

Edited June 22, 2016 by Quintessence

[Augestein]

I know what you mean here. The problem is that it doesn't quite mesh with what Izuka was saying in the Pelleas fight from 4-5. Pelleas has a lot of problems being here in the plot tbh as a lot of things he says are some of the biggest contradictions and problems leading me to believe that he was never supposed to be alive. When the pact was actually made had to have been just at the end of part 1. It has to because Izuka gets out of dodge after part 1 and because Pelleas refers to himself as king when he promotes Micaiah.

And your explanation is why I like Micaiah to be honest: she's put in a tough situation that she can run from, but she doesn't. She chooses to stand and fight. Even if the circumstances would have her be a villain. But both Corrin and Micaiah fall victim to the same problem, with one huge difference: Micaiah knows about the BP, Corrin doesn't know about Valla. Azura is honestly to blame here, and that makes it frustrating, because the only characters that know about it don't do anything, but the actual heroes of the story-- aside from Azura don't know. And the BP's backstory I found rather subpar, it's just like "this old wise merchant new about it," and it really brings up more questions than it actually answers. That bothers me more than a curse that was crafted by a powerful dragon. Both BP and VC are really convenient tools for events happening, but I find that its existence in RD causes more problems than VC in this case. I can see how someone can prefer this, but both have a myriad of problems. For the record, I found both stories pretty lousy, but considering that Fates is like that across the board, I find it less frustrating to take in than RD because RD is building off of PoR-- which while having an average story, didn't have problems with making sense.

In Revelations, it's frustrating because Azura just straight up tells Corrin to come to the canyon and they go to Valla where she informs them immediately. The rest of the game is Corrin recruiting people until eventually Corrin rounds up enough to bring them all to the canyon again to go to Valla. It's not a very interesting story, but it sort of works. There's an end goal laid out from the start, and the characters work towards it. I played Rev first, so it's just jarring to see Azura be completely tight-lipped in the other routes while she isn't in Revelations. The story is kind of bland, but hey, so is FE1, but it works better in my eyes with that. Revelations should have been really the only path and the focus should have been only on that one instead so it could have been more developed. Characters in the plot of RD feel better, but I give more weight to the overarching plot being solid than the characters themselves honestly. This is probably why I believe Fates to be better in that regard. It's plot isn't a random set of events imo. As Thane put it, it's a linear path, and I feel that works better here.

[Paper Jam]

It has to because Izuka gets out of dodge after part 1 and because Pelleas refers to himself as king when he promotes Micaiah.

Izuka didn't get out of dodge of his own volition, though; he was abducted by Bastian. And we don't know exactly when.

[Dinar87]

Going back to the original topic of this thread I feel the stories in PoR and RD are both incredible...and I'm not really exactly sure why? However I can point out a handful of things I liked about the Tellius series' stories...
​
1. Not all characters on the 'good side' are actually 100% good. Shinion and Soren for example start off as racist jerks to the laguz and even comes close to breaking into a fight between them. That's far more interesting than the 'everyone is a goodie' in awakening (except for spotpass characters but they felt shoe-horned in).
​
2. The scale of RD felt more epic than any FE game I've ever played.
​
3. Like really like Ike because he isn't a clichéd lord. He's really a peasant, a commoner, son of a mercenary group...no one particularly special. And that what I like about him. He even has qualities such as resenting ties to nobility or the fact that he says what he thinks regardless of others.
​
4. Not everyone praises the protagonist as a god. Not only does Shinion and Gatrie leave ike as soon as Greil dies but Shinion continues to give Ike shit throughout the game. That's far more entertaining than "wii luv u protag!" 24/7

5. One dimensional villains (the senators) and yes this is a positive. Since the senators caused so much bad shit for you in part 1, and since they have no redeeming qualities about them, it made killing them and their forces far more satisfying that a villain that, say, was mostly bad but also had some good in them. Pure evil is far more fun for me...they just have to feel like terrible humans in order for it to actually work. It has to have SOME realism.
​
6. Some sympathetic villains. In part 3 you get the impression that Zelgius (and his friend) don't necessarily want to fight you but are forced to. This is another sort of villain I like. I like extremes...not in-betweens. I like Zelgius because he REALLY doesn't want to fight you which makes attacking him and his forces more emotionally impactful.
​
Now this being said, I hate the villains of awakening as, besides a few instances, we never get any opportunities to hate them. We're mostly just told 'they're the bad guys. now kill them'. It also doesn't help that there's no range of villains in awakening. I like pure evil and humane villains but only if there's both at the same time. I like variety in the different factions. Awakening failed miserably in that sense.
​

​Also, am I the only one who thinks the blood pact wasn't the worst thing in the world? Sure, the fact that Pelleas didn't bother to read it was a bit stupid but then again he trusted Izuka who deceived him so it's not really a flaw if you think about it. I feel characters like Sothe react realistically to the news of the blood pact. The only way it could've been better is if other characters like Jill or Aran reacted to this news as well...maybe even leaving the dawn brigade for good!

Edited July 9, 2016 by Dinar87

[Etrurian emperor]

4. Not everyone praises the protagonist as a god. Not only does Shinion and Gatrie leave ike as soon as Greil dies but Shinion continues to give Ike shit throughout the game. That's far more entertaining than "wii luv u protag!" 24/7

I kind of view Shinon's relation with Ike the same as I do Hana's relation with Corrin. Yeah its finally someone who doesn't worship the lord but they are such petty jerks about it that it just proves how good the lord is. I never thought Shinon had a point. He was just a jerk. Gatrie is an interesting case because doesn't trust Ike as a leader enough to the point of him leaving but also considers it nothing personal and remains friendly to him.

6. Some sympathetic villains. In part 3 you get the impression that Zelgius (and his friend) don't necessarily want to fight you but are forced to. This is another sort of villain I like. I like extremes...not in-betweens. I like Zelgius because he REALLY doesn't want to fight you which makes attacking him and his forces more emotionally impactful.

Zelgius is a hard character to judge because pretty much everything he says and does is contradicted by the Black knight who turns out to be Zelgius. BK being anything but sympathetic with his promise to torture Mist or his murder of Greil for pretty much no other reason then to see if he could makes anything sympathetic he says as Zelgius ring rather hollow. Zelgius states he prefers not to kill if he can avoid it yet Greil's death could have been avoided easily as it wasn't even ordered by Lehran. I've started to believe that Zelgius is a big phony while the black knight is his true identity. Since the Black knight is all about living a warrior's life Zelgius is probably very eager to fight, he just pretends he's not.

Edited July 9, 2016 by Etrurian emperor

[Dinar87]

I kind of view Shinon's relation with Ike the same as I do Hana's relation with Corrin. Yeah its finally someone who doesn't worship the lord but they are such petty jerks about it that it just proves how good the lord is. I never thought Shinon had a point. He was just a jerk. Gatrie is an interesting case because doesn't trust Ike as a leader enough to the point of him leaving but also considers it nothing personal and remains friendly to him.

Zelgius is a hard character to judge because pretty much everything he says and does is contradicted by the Black knight who turns out to be Zelgius. BK being anything but sympathetic with his promise to torture Mist or his murder of Greil for pretty much no other reason then to see if he could makes anything sympathetic he says as Zelgius ring rather hollow. Zelgius states he prefers not to kill if he can avoid it yet Greil's death could have been avoided easily as it wasn't even ordered by Lehran. I've started to believe that Zelgius is a big phony while the black knight is his true identity. Since the Black knight is all about living a warrior's life Zelgius is probably very eager to fight, he just pretends he's not.

Yes it might've been nice if Shinion had a reason to be a jerk to Ike. Gatrie is far more interesting than Shinion personally. Also, the BK shouldn't of been Zelgius as it conflicts with his personality heavily. Zelgius is a noble soldier...the BK is a killer! It could've worked if it was Sephiran who ordered the BK to kill them (maybe he somehow threatened the BK so he became desperate to follow Sephiran's orders).

​Actually the reason I said Zelgius is because I've only got up to part 3 of RD so Zelgius being the BK was spoiled for me. I couldn't help it-I saw the endgame chapters...at least a bit of them.

Edited July 9, 2016 by Dinar87

[Etrurian emperor]

I see it more as Zelgius being the professional soldier while BK is more the straight up warrior. One of them is his true self and the other a disguise.

Considering every Zelgius choses his BK personality every time he has to make a choice between the two I'd say its a safe bet that's his true personality. Zelgius may just be a front to help Sephiran with his schemes and his popularity in Begnion.

Edited July 9, 2016 by Etrurian emperor