What do you think of the story in the Tellius games?

[General Banzai]

If you consider it. I personally don't, though, because they were clearly brought back simply so Robin could optionally marry them. Priam is a brand new character that wasn't in the main story, so he's a different case.

Sounds pretty arbitrary

[Jave]

The SpotPass maps are not canon because it makes no sense for them to unlock right before the final boss map. They're just bonus characters, the same way all the dead characters in FE8 which become playable in the post game. The only difference is that FE13 attempts to (very poorly) justify their existence.

I personally equate the SpotPass maps in FE13 to stuff like the "Another Day" in TWEWY or School Mode in Danganronpa. It's nice bonus stuff, but not meant to be taken as part of the canon.

[Quintessence]

Because there was no room for Priam in the main story? Chrom and Robin's party don't go near his location in the main story, so why shoehorn him in it just for the sake of it when he could be put on the side? That way it doesn't mess around with the story (even though the story is pretty bad as is).

Yes, it is fanservice, yes it is added content. But has IS specifically stated that optional content is noncanon? No. And fanservice doesn't automatically mean noncanon either. Plenty of story characters are fanservicy, like Tharja and Camilla. You can't tell me that I can't consider Priam canon. So stop trying to force me to change my view.

If the writers wanted to add him they would've found whatever reason to do so, in the same way they're creative in other stuff like adding a bunch of special traits for Micaiah.

Granted, IS doesn't say yes or no to this subject, if it is cannon or not, which I don't care because how can I take seriously something brought up as DLC where I (most likely) have to pay to know. This is why I show so much opposition on DLC and I rage even more when it wants to integrate stuff with the story, like how Hidden Truths and Future Past do, as much as people say Future Past is awesome; but it is dumb and it reduces itself to cheap marketing strategies to grab more money. Why don't they do a special episode somewhere between the story? Or after the endgame (in case of Future Past and Hidden Truths)? Similar to how RD gave us players the option to recruit Pelleas and Lehran on a second playthrough, and even see the story with another perspective?

Fanservice is there not to make a game more solid, or make the story more consistent, etc., fanservice exists only to appeal the public, specially to feed fans' imagination and make them speculate and create a stronger attachment to story, characters, w/e. And no, I'm not trying to convince you of anything, because if anything (and with no offense), it is an abortive attempt to do so.

[Baldrick]

Priam could easily be slipped into the Valm arc without changing much, it'd be in character for him to want to duel Walhart.

Like Quint said, nobody's trying to change your mind, I don't think there's even any real evidence Priam is definitely non-canon. But there's no evidence to suggest he is definitely canon either.

[Hobrek]

In my opinion the biggest problem with Radiant Dawn’s narrative can be traced back to Part I. Part I’s purpose is purely to introduce the player to Miciah and the Dawn Brigade so players feel conflicted when the Dawn Brigade and Greil Mercenaries thrown down in Part III.

However, the writers decided to make Part I follow Miciah liberating Daien from the now evil Begnion Empire. The problem is that once they are liberated and the plot wants them to fight the Greil Mercenaries there is no valid reason for them to.

Consequently we get the Blood Pact. The Blood Pact is stupid because it is a plot device erasing everything we did in Part I. Part I is about being free of Begnion and by then we go right back to slaves. This is really odd when you think about it because RD’s plot would be ten times better if Begnion just chose not be jerks to the Daeins.

Just imagine if instead of destroying them Begnion chose to try to build them up the whole while patting them on the backs and building anti-laguz and Crimea feelings. After all Begnion really had very little part in the conquering of Daein. This would set up nicely for Part II’s drama if Begnion just gave Daien sovereignty and instituted the young and popular Miciah as Pelleas’ right hand. Crimea would freak out by the resurrection of their enemy and seeming betrayal of their ally. This would also allow Ludveck position of increased militarization understandable since they can't trust anyone.

If they had done this Part II could live to its fullest and Crimea’s civil war could spill out to the rest of the world and actually contribute directly to Part III giving the game much cleaner pacing and no dumb plot devices. Daein would naturally side with Begnion in the war because they are friendly people who helped them to their feet and are fighting the laguz and their worst enemy. The most obvious problem with this is that we would get little time with Miciah but would anybody side with her over Ike regardless of how much screen time she got?

TL;DR Part I sucks and removing it would allow RD’s narrative to shine more. (I actually like Part IV)

[Lord Tullus]

It has been a good 2 years since I've played Radiant Dawn. Me and my bad habbit of loosing everything I touch. Anyway, From what I remember, I actually really like Radiant Dawn's Story more than path of radiance. Yes, POR's is definately better, but Radiant dawn seems more of a greek epic style of story telling, rather than the traditional heave and hoe of fire emblem. (I'm probably the only person in the world who thinks the blood pact was not that contrived.)

The story focuses on the aspect of racism and equality between races of laguz and beorc, as we all know. The message was a good one, I think. In real life, the sheer concept of Race is plain stupid, and driving from nationalism and superiority complexes in leadership and culture. Social (and somewhat historical) acceptance of the term isn't helping either. Now, I've read an article that states that, "99.99%" of all human biology is the same. Meaning, the stuff on the surface, and the way you are raised, and where you come from, should bring no malice. It's stupid, and an excuse for someone to be better than someone else.

The 0.01% is what we are clawing each-other's throats out for? Really? At least the tellius series made racism slightly more justified. How? Think about it. It's not human v human with blue nipples. It's human vs. Human-animal hybrid. There's more than 0.01% to give an excuse of superiority. It also has a common religion that was screwy through different cultures; rather than multiple religions that are fought tooth and nail over who's right. WW1 and WW2 were race wars, FE's 9 and 10 were race wars. FE did it better.

Oops. I think I went too far on that last one. Uhh... You know what else is a race war? A Mario Kart 8 tournament.

[Hexmaster44]

So I actually wrote an essay on this. I fully expect folks to disagree with me. It's specifically about FE10's story, but I think it fits well into the discussion.

Whenever someone asks me what my favorite videogame is, my instinctive response is Radiant Dawn. But it’s not even the best Tellius game, they say. And the class system. And the support system. And Micaiah’s character is insufferable. And the Black Knight is poorly handled. And. And.

Sure, yeah. Some things could better. But the gameplay, although it’s what initially interested me, is not why I have completed probably around 20 playthroughs of the game--it was the story.

First, I’d like to address the criticism of Micaiah’s character as generic. There are certainly times where she seems exceptionally good-hearted, which hurts her relatability. Despite others’ suspicions, she is the one to approach Rafiel, Naesala, and Volug in the temple. She is the one to first object to the poison at Umono Prison Camp. She is the one that runs willingly into a trap at Shifu Swamp. And all of these situations work out for her--the Dawn Brigade is successful and she returns a hero. Her legend grows.

She has a tendency to give up, too. Or at least to want to give up. It strikes me as stressing her femininity, which I think is relatively rare in Fire Emblem games. Gender issues aside, it contributes to the feeling that she’s a weak character.

However, not everything continues to go exactly as she would like. As she is playing the down-to-earth heroine, directly assisting in the rebuilding efforts, she receives word that she will be leading the army to war against the Laguz Alliance.

Here is the first of the real conflicts of the game. General Jarrod is pretty undoubtedly evil. It’s impossible for me to take his side. And Ludveck, while he may be “right” in some sense of political pragmatism, has methods that are pretty underhanded. Actually, in the end, he gets what he wants: a stronger head of state, willing to sacrifice personal goals for the well-being of the country. It just wasn’t the one he hoped it would be.

By 3-6, you have PCs on opposite sides of a war. Suddenly (and I do really mean suddenly. I actually stopped playing for a bit the first time I got to 3-6 because I was upset and confused) the player can’t be sure of which side they’re “supposed” to root for.

Yeah, I can see how some people would think it’s contrived. Micaiah, who’s been so much on the side of ideals instead of pragmatism (like storming Daein Keep to stop the bombardment of Nevassa when the Imperial Occupation Army is days away from being dismantled), suddenly goes against what her ideals tell her. She’s actually aware of, and repulsed by, the “laguz-hunting” culture that the soldiers have created, and yet does nothing to directly address it. It seems like the developers just needed her to be on the opposite side of this war, so they put her on the other side, disregarding previous characterization.

I suppose that’s true, in a sense. But a good piece of roleplaying advice is not to say outright “My character wouldn’t do that” but rather to find a reason that your character would. So the developers chose to use Micaiah’s sense of country and her (perhaps misguided) trust in Pelleas. She chooses allegiance even before she’s aware of the complications of the blood pact. That’s an extremely strong choice that she’s made; arguments that she’s making the immoral choice are fairly simple:

Laguz-hunting is blatantly wrong, and her choice to enter a war based on the say-so of Pelleas, whose motives at this point are really unclear, perhaps needlessly endangers her army and friends. But I can also make the argument that she’s making the right choice--that it’s best for her young country to be united and that she trusts a king who has been, thus far, trustworthy and a good friend. This, for me, makes the conflict believable.

The Greil Mercenaries’ reactions in 3-6 and 3-7 are pretty wonderful. They’re so...angry. They recognize the hypocritical and illogical nature of Daein’s entrance. And as the conflict progresses, Daein continues to be a thorn in the Laguz Alliance’s side--and Ike’s anger and frustration grows.

Out of this hypocrisy arises the motives for Jill and Zihark to defect. Both of these characters have pretty significant convictions about laguz racism and it’s basically incomprehensible for them to be fighting against the Laguz Alliance, especially with Zihark’s weak ties to country. Unfortunately, the developers (and players) are stuck between choosing story or gameplay--to have them stay with Daein contradicts their characterization; to have them defect greatly reduces their usability and cripples the Daein army even more. Honestly, I think it’s a shame that, if the player doesn’t trigger the right conditions for them to defect, Jill and Zihark don’t confront the contradictions of fighting the laguz--which is where the meat of the story lies.

Micaiah, however, continues making strong choices. When she learns of the blood pact, her country’s well-being becomes paramount. Sothe tries to convince her to leave, but Micaiah won’t: “Leaving the army would be the same as abandoning the people of Daein.” She learns of Pelleas’s deception, but also recognizes that it was necessary. And so her pity, which was so apparent in her use of Sacrifice on the injured civilian as the Dawn Brigade escaped Nevassa, is once again on display when she agrees to help Pelleas.

Micaiah’s faith is severely tested, though. It’s partly due to the increased chaos in the world that she’s so tired. But there’s also an incredible amount of stress that she’s under. She collapses (or nearly collapses--it’s not clear) after the fight at the Riven Bridge after she’s just disobeyed a recommendation from an Imperial Senate advisor (another strong choice). After she learns of the blood pact, she’s even more determined to delay the advance of the Laguz Alliance, using the oil and rocks that she normally would have abhorred. To her, though, it’s all for naught: Ike’s troops break through the other Daein army and storm Micaiah’s position; Tibarn grabs Sothe and holds him over the cliff. Here does Micaiah break down. She finds she isn’t able to sacrifice Sothe for her country, notably something that Elincia was able to do with Lucia. Her weakness shows; even she struggles to hold her faith, which has wavered in all of her comrades.

Then we reach the goddess. Oh, the goddess. It’s so...cinematic. The image of Ike in the boneyard of statues is really incredible.

I’ll skip ahead a bit. I don’t think anything particularly important happens during the chapters leading up to the endgame, with the exception of Naesala’s encounter with Skrimir, which is excellent, especially with Leanne and Nealuchi’s presence. Even though Ike and Micaiah have smoothed things over, it’s good to see that there’s still tension (and that Skrimir has grown).

Well, maybe the reveal of the Black Knight’s identity. I mean, it makes sense from a realism point of view. As written, Ranulf would have been the one to figure it out--he fought the Black Knight in Path of Radiance and then Zelgius in Radiant Dawn. And it does make sense for him to tell Ike--they are indeed going in different groups towards the capital. But why not earlier, at an appropriately dramatic moment? And I’m sure there could be a way for Ike to be the one to find out. Maybe have them engage in 3-7 after the battle? Something similar to the chapter in PoR where the Black Knight shows up in the chapter where Ike liberates Geoffrey and the two have a brief little chat after the battle. I suppose the Black Knight is a side character in this story, but they should do him better justice than this.

In general, the writing up until Endgame is pretty poor, in my opinion. I think a lot of writing, with the exception of the flashbacks, doesn’t add much to the story. There are good moments, of course, but there are more bad ones.

Ok, here we go with the goddess.

Let’s be clear. In a binary sense, humanity (which I’m using to inclusively mean both beorc and laguz) broke their pact with the goddess. They had a continent-spanning war. Even Goldoa, Hatari, and Serenes are involved. So the goddess was right, again in a binary sense, to wake up, see war, and make everyone stone.

Which makes the character of Lehran super interesting. He instigated the Mad King’s War (although Ashnard didn’t need much prodding). Associated with this war and the more recent war, of course, are the deaths of thousands. But on a grander scale, that’s not how we should judge Lehran, as his goals were, of course, on a grander scale. Ending the world is generally frowned upon, and I think I fall on the side of condemning Lehran’s actions, but allow me to make an argument in his favor anyways.

He’s tortured. Up until fathering a child with Altina, he enjoyed both his wings and the ability to sing to the goddess, not to mention the respect and admiration of the people. Imagine being a world-class cellist and losing your left hand. Perhaps that doesn’t describe it accurately, as playing the cello isn’t a unique talent. Perhaps something more like the last native speaker of a language having a stroke and being unable to speak clearly. At least for me, it’s hard to fathom. And then put on top of that having to watch your people enslaved and those with the power to free them not lift a finger. And then see your homeland (with your people) burned. After a while, it’s not hard to see where Lehran gets the idea that humanity is unsalvageable. So, to him, the thousands that die as a result of his wars is inconsequential.

The point is not that I believe that killing everyone in the world could be justified as easily as “they’re cruel and heartless,” because I have a higher regard for the sanctity of life than that. But the point the story presented in Radiant Dawn allows me to suspend my own beliefs, replacing them with the beliefs of the characters, and still have a consistent worldview. Put less poetically, I can understand why the characters take the actions they do.

And then the heroes go on and face the goddess. Ike and Yune’s conversation with the goddess is wonderful. Ashera is oblivious and rigid. Ike and Yune are passionate and convicted.

The binary that I mentioned earlier that “humanity started a continent-spanning war” is all that matters to Ashera (and to Dheginsea, for that matter). Strictly speaking, the goddess is awoken by Micaiah’s galdr of release, but that in and of itself does not necessarily mean that the goddess shouldn’t destroy the world. In the goddess’s parting words to Lehran, she says that they can use the galdr of release “to tell us your tale… We will listen, and we will judge fairly and impartially.” And indeed, humanity failed the goddess’s decree for “a world of peace and order, where all prosper as equals.”

Besides the mitigating factor of the galdr of release, the heroes argue that humanity is naturally imperfect and therefore that the bargain they made not to war is not realistic for them to uphold. Of course, this is ridiculous, at least in the way I’ve framed it. If the bargain is null, then we’re back to square one with Lehran pleading with the goddess not to destroy the world after Yune’s defeat, in which case the goddess should have dusted everyone on the spot anyways.

But much more important, I think, is the fact that it is Lehran was the one that instigated these wars. Without him, these wars might not have happened. Sure, laguz-beorc relations were not exactly perfect, but things were improving with Sanaki’s exposure of Oliver (and the general exposure of laguz slavery) in PoR and Gallia’s help in rebuilding Crimea. Aside from Lehran seeing himself as an agent of the goddess, which undermines the goddess’s good faith in the agreement, the pact becomes a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy. Without the existence of the agreement, Lehran would not have instigated a continent-spanning war as a way of waking the goddess. Of course, Lehran only has to tap into what’s already there, and Ashnard practically falls into his lap as the perfect man for the job he wants done. To put all of the blame of the last two wars at the feet of Lehran is plainly wrong. But the point remains that the existence of the pact, in Lehran’s case, incentivizes continent-spanning war.

These are the types of investigations I can make into this story. Yes, of course the story has its flaws, the most severe of which I’ve addressed here. But the central conflicts are strong ones, and I can understand why both sides fight. That’s what makes the story a strong one. And that’s why I keep coming back.

[Loki Laufeyson]

Tellius does something that i think only Jugdral rivals, in FE. Exceedingly solid world building. You know exactly how each nation on this continent goes about its daily life. You know how its ruled. Cultural differences are very apparent and you can even be confident in saying what they are. You know where they are on the map and their geological make up. (example: Talrega region in Daein is actually on what seems to be a valley near a bunch of foothills or steppes and it floods every year.) You get a pretty good idea how the economy works even though the games dont go into huge detail about it. (Toha in Crimea is extremely active port for that country, and next to Melior, one of the most important trade spots on that end of Tellius.) You know the deep lore of how this continent even came into being. You find out how the races evolved into what they are. I think the only thing you never realize are some town names in Gallia lmao. (and you never really see Goldoa outside a meeting with Dheg,)

This really just sets that world apart from other FE worlds. And that is really why i love it so much. The narrative itself is decent enough, and im deeply fond of the narrative in Path of Radiance. Radiant Dawn had a great concept, and it does make sense for the most part. There was just so much they wanted to tell, it got really jumbled up along the way. Or there wasnt enough time to tell it. Info dumps happen in places that really get in the way. (Tower of Guidance info dumps are like whoa when it comes to pacing.) Story reveals are handled a bit sloppily here too. (Ranulf just up and running to Ike going "yo BK is the Big Z." and Micaiah's lineage reveal.) Because there was so much plot going on, Micaiah didnt get to grow and develop as a character, and thats unfortunate. (shes really just a really watered down version of Daenerys Targaryen but with some special heron powers.)

Despite the flaws though, i enjoy the hell out of it. The characters are fantastic, The world is so concise. Yes.

[MCProductions]

Path of Radiance, it's okay storywise. I've seen better, and I've seen worse.

Radiant Dawn is my third least favorite video game narrative ever, with only MGS5 and Halo 5 having worse plots imo. That said, while I consider parts 1, 3, and 4 total garbage plot wise, part 2 as a standalone is my favorite plot in the series.

[Lord Tullus]

Micaiah, who’s been so much on the side of ideals instead of pragmatism (like storming Daein Keep to stop the bombardment of Nevassa when the Imperial Occupation Army is days away from being dismantled), suddenly goes against what her ideals tell her. She’s actually aware of, and repulsed by, the “laguz-hunting” culture that the soldiers have created, and yet does nothing to directly address it. It seems like the developers just needed her to be on the opposite side of this war, so they put her on the other side, disregarding previous characterization.

I suppose that’s true, in a sense. But a good piece of roleplaying advice is not to say outright “My character wouldn’t do that” but rather to find a reason that your character would. So the developers chose to use Micaiah’s sense of country and her (perhaps misguided) trust in Pelleas. She chooses allegiance even before she’s aware of the complications of the blood pact. That’s an extremely strong choice that she’s made; arguments that she’s making the immoral choice are fairly simple:

Laguz-hunting is blatantly wrong, and her choice to enter a war based on the say-so of Pelleas, whose motives at this point are really unclear, perhaps needlessly endangers her army and friends. But I can also make the argument that she’s making the right choice--that it’s best for her young country to be united and that she trusts a king who has been, thus far, trustworthy and a good friend. This, for me, makes the conflict believable.

I loved your essay. I'm no teacher, but I'd give that peice of work an A+ . You said things about Michiah that I believe and understand, but putting it into words has always been difficult for me, as I talk about part 3's story. I appreciate your analysis. Thank you, and a job well done, in my opinion.

[Haruji-san]

I adore the Tellius story. Simple as that.

But wait, details must be given!

PoR, despite some corny dialogue, had a nice and well-developed story. The characters, for the most part, were given plenty of room to breathe. I especially loved Ranulf. I could wax poetic about my (platonic) love for him. There were some characters that I hated, though. Shinon, Gatrie, Calill, Largo, Makalov (I tolerate him and always recruit him because hearing Marcia tell him off is HILARIOUS), Devdan, Petrine, yeah. I do feel that a certain death came far too early for me to care much about the character. Also, some twists were a bit too obvious. Overall, though, the story was very enjoyable.

Then we get to Radiant Dawn. My feelings on it are... complicated. On one hand, it was very much too compressed and Part IV just got WAY too over-the-top. The amount of compressing with the story meant that the slew of new characters couldn't breathe and develop properly. This really hurts the plot as a whole. The addition of the Wolf Tribe was a phenomenal idea; why couldn't we meet more of them?! This really pisses me off on many, many levels.

BUT, on the other hand, I absolutely LOVE its ambition. I felt that the writers were really passionate about the epic tale they were weaving, even if it was riddled with flaws. There's a certain passion behind the story that always kept me absorbed in spite of its glaring problems. I still managed to feel for these characters, even if many were left underdeveloped. If you ask me, there should be a massive, fan-made update for RD that expands the story and allows for more detail and characterization, if doing so would even be possible. I would love to see another game set in Tellius. I want to spend more time with Ranulf, Volug, Sothe, Micaiah, and the rest of them.

So, in spite of all its faults, I still love the Tellius story. It had tremendous ambition, and the passion of the writers really showed through. Plus, some of the twists were pretty epic.

That's pretty much the gist of it, in my eyes.

Hey, at least it's got a better story than Shadow Dragon....................

[Thane]

Path of Radiance, it's okay storywise. I've seen better, and I've seen worse.

Radiant Dawn is my third least favorite video game narrative ever, with only MGS5 and Halo 5 having worse plots imo. That said, while I consider parts 1, 3, and 4 total garbage plot wise, part 2 as a standalone is my favorite plot in the series.

You and I seem destined to clash on everything regarding Fire Emblem stories.

To me, Path of Radiance is bland and fairly boring. The dialogue is surprisingly devoid of emotion save for a few rare instances, and while the worldbuilding is decent, the overarching plot suffers greatly due to Ashnard's minimal influence (and him being too dumb to live and be taken seriously).

On the other hand, I feel as if Radiant Dawn takes the worldbuilding from its predecessor and uses it to focus on the best part of the game: the characters. Most of the important ones are likeable, the subplots are intriguing and it feels as if almost everyone has a motivation for doing what they're doing. The dialogue is also improved, and it no longer felt like two people were constantly having separate monologues, rather than a dialogue, and as such I care far more about what's going on. It's messy, overambitious in the same way as Awakening and Fates, but at least it offers a lot of good subplots and properly motivated characters, something Awakening's simplicity does not offer a need for and what Fates is lacking due to the sheer ineptitude of the writers.

[Original Alear]

Now, I've read an article that states that, "99.99%" of all human biology is the same. Meaning, the stuff on the surface, and the way you are raised, and where you come from, should bring no malice. It's stupid, and an excuse for someone to be better than someone else.

I'm not an expert, but when I heard a quote like that, it was that something like 99% of human genetic material is identical.

I think there's still a great deal of uncertainty, but my understanding is that a great deal of human DNA is believed to have no biological function. There's some DNA that doesn't even have biochemical activity. There isn't a lot known, but simply because we share similar material, doesn't mean that all of that material is actually substantial. It could be that most or all differences between genetic material in humans are comprised of crucial functional DNA.

I'm not trying to say that laguz and beorc (or various human races) should hate each other or think one or the other are inferior, but it is important to remember that a tiny fragment of DNA (an allele or two) can have a relatively insubstantial or superficial effect like changing hair color, or a debilitating effect like causing a serious genetic disorder.

[MCProductions]

You and I seem destined to clash on everything regarding Fire Emblem stories.

To me, Path of Radiance is bland and fairly boring. The dialogue is surprisingly devoid of emotion save for a few rare instances, and while the worldbuilding is decent, the overarching plot suffers greatly due to Ashnard's minimal influence (and him being too dumb to live and be taken seriously).

On the other hand, I feel as if Radiant Dawn takes the worldbuilding from its predecessor and uses it to focus on the best part of the game: the characters. Most of the important ones are likeable, the subplots are intriguing and it feels as if almost everyone has a motivation for doing what they're doing. The dialogue is also improved, and it no longer felt like two people were constantly having separate monologues, rather than a dialogue, and as such I care far more about what's going on. It's messy, overambitious in the same way as Awakening and Fates, but at least it offers a lot of good subplots and properly motivated characters, something Awakening's simplicity does not offer a need for and what Fates is lacking due to the sheer ineptitude of the writers.

How did I know you replied to me the second I saw you replied to this topic

Considering I only consider Path of Radiance okay, that's the closest I'd get to calling it bland without considering it bland since I was actually hooked on the story my first run. I can't say that I consider POR's story bad because I was generally interested in what was going on. I'm not able to say that about RD, so I'm really able to straight up call it bad. That's why I'm so kind to Awakening and Fates' plots if you're wondering why.

[Quintessence]

You and I seem destined to clash on everything regarding Fire Emblem stories.

To me, Path of Radiance is bland and fairly boring. The dialogue is surprisingly devoid of emotion save for a few rare instances, and while the worldbuilding is decent, the overarching plot suffers greatly due to Ashnard's minimal influence (and him being too dumb to live and be taken seriously).

On the other hand, I feel as if Radiant Dawn takes the worldbuilding from its predecessor and uses it to focus on the best part of the game: the characters. Most of the important ones are likeable, the subplots are intriguing and it feels as if almost everyone has a motivation for doing what they're doing. The dialogue is also improved, and it no longer felt like two people were constantly having separate monologues, rather than a dialogue, and as such I care far more about what's going on. It's messy, overambitious in the same way as Awakening and Fates, but at least it offers a lot of good subplots and properly motivated characters, something Awakening's simplicity does not offer a need for and what Fates is lacking due to the sheer ineptitude of the writers.

What parts of PoR dialogue are devoid of emotion? To me it's pretty consistent overall, some highs and some lows, but still the story is appealing. I would question the dumbness of Daein people though. But PoR is pretty standard.

[Thane]

How did I know you replied to me the second I saw you replied to this topic

Considering I only consider Path of Radiance okay, that's the closest I'd get to calling it bland without considering it bland since I was actually hooked on the story my first run. I can't say that I consider POR's story bad because I was generally interested in what was going on. I'm not able to say that about RD, so I'm really able to straight up call it bad. That's why I'm so kind to Awakening and Fates' plots if you're wondering why.

What does Radiant Dawn do worse than Fates in terms of storyt? I'm incredibly curious to hear that, since now, early in the morning right before my most difficult foreign exam yet, I can't think of anything at all.

What parts of PoR dialogue are devoid of emotion? To me it's pretty consistent overall, some highs and some lows, but still the story is appealing. I would question the dumbness of Daein people though. But PoR is pretty standard.

Pretty much all of it. It's an incredibly subjective argument, I realize that, but I always get the feeling that people speak in monologues rather than having a dialogue, and the script is just so...bland and boring. There's very little charm that distinguishes the characters from each other, very few jokes, the replies are usually very predictable, etc.

In Radiant Dawn I remember several lines that are pretty darn good, such as Tibarn's adorable "Hello, boys! It's good to see you two still hang out together!" to Ike and Ranulf. There's just always more emotion and effort put into making the characters sound more natural.

Again, I realize this is incredibly subjective, perhaps more so than most story and writing arguments, so if people don't agree with me, I understand. We can talk about Ashnard almost being on Nergal's level of boring villain if that's an easier topic.

[Augestein]

What does Radiant Dawn do worse than Fates in terms of storyt? I'm incredibly curious to hear that, since now, early in the morning right before my most difficult foreign exam yet, I can't think of anything at all.

RD has the bloodpact. A miserable plot point that's sole purpose is to make people fight that have no business fighting. The explanation for the BP is so poorly done and confusing that it deserves more than a simple slap on the wrist. It also has magical problem solving powers for no reason. I'm not entirely certain why defeating the final boss of RD solves anything. The senate isn't completely gone (even if their main leader is gone), the Laguz Alliance just stops fighting because... Yes. There's no answering to what they even *started* the war for in the first place. Sanaki is just like "let's make peace with the laguz and Daein!" Yeah, I'm sure that'll go well over there in Begnion. The only person that really gets proper resolution is Elincia. She's queen again and doesn't need to fight because the squabbles of everyone else are pretty irrelevant to her so long as they don't march through Crimea. The assassination of the Misaha is "yeah the senators did it!" Which even if true will be exceedingly difficult to just say "sanaki said it was so, so it is." Especially when the glossary says the senators have gotten more influential over the years.

Fates feels considerably more "over" and resolved when it's over. Sure you don't kill the big bad from Revelations, but his plan is effectively nipped in the bud, and no one in the group is aware of it, so it makes it harder (if not outright impossible) to proceed with the plan. Birthright has Nohr defeated, Leo crowned and he's not likely to wage war anytime soon. As they actually formed an alliance afterward. Conquest has Hoshido defeated, and Hinoka is placed on the thrown with a similar mindset as Leo from Birthright. The path was stupid in Fates but the ending at least feels like the story doesn't have any more tension after this point. Sure, there might be resentment between the two kingdoms, but it'll be considerably less considering that even Nohrians weren't terribly happy with Garon as their king it seems based on some of the Birthright chapters later in the game.

As for dialogue, yeah, the localization at least, is far less stiff with dialogue than PoR. That is one thing that RD does much better. It has a very clean script. There's nothing that reads as strangely as things like "my lord Ike" for instance.

[Thane]

RD has the bloodpact. A miserable plot point that's sole purpose is to make people fight that have no business fighting. The explanation for the BP is so poorly done and confusing that it deserves more than a simple slap on the wrist. It also has magical problem solving powers for no reason. I'm not entirely certain why defeating the final boss of RD solves anything. The senate isn't completely gone (even if their main leader is gone), the Laguz Alliance just stops fighting because... Yes. There's no answering to what they even *started* the war for in the first place. Sanaki is just like "let's make peace with the laguz and Daein!" Yeah, I'm sure that'll go well over there in Begnion. The only person that really gets proper resolution is Elincia. She's queen again and doesn't need to fight because the squabbles of everyone else are pretty irrelevant to her so long as they don't march through Crimea. The assassination of the Misaha is "yeah the senators did it!" Which even if true will be exceedingly difficult to just say "sanaki said it was so, so it is." Especially when the glossary says the senators have gotten more influential over the years.

Fates feels considerably more "over" and resolved when it's over. Sure you don't kill the big bad from Revelations, but his plan is effectively nipped in the bud, and no one in the group is aware of it, so it makes it harder (if not outright impossible) to proceed with the plan. Birthright has Nohr defeated, Leo crowned and he's not likely to wage war anytime soon. As they actually formed an alliance afterward. Conquest has Hoshido defeated, and Hinoka is placed on the thrown with a similar mindset as Leo from Birthright. The path was stupid in Fates but the ending at least feels like the story doesn't have any more tension after this point. Sure, there might be resentment between the two kingdoms, but it'll be considerably less considering that even Nohrians weren't terribly happy with Garon as their king it seems based on some of the Birthright chapters later in the game.

As for dialogue, yeah, the localization at least, is far less stiff with dialogue than PoR. That is one thing that RD does much better. It has a very clean script. There's nothing that reads as strangely as things like "my lord Ike" for instance.

The Blood Pact is awful, but it pales in comparison to the plot curse of Valla which is effectively the only reason as to why two thirds of the game is objectively wrong, even though four characters know of the country's presence. It's even less explained and far stupider; we know next to nothing about it, and the characters come close to dropping hints about the place anyway, making me question just how effective the curse is.

Edit: I forgot to mention that Micaiah, as much as I don't like her, gets called out on her actions, and people are planning accordingly for what's going on; people react to the Blood Pact. The plot curse? Not so much. Azura and Corrin just walk around saying "hey, just trust me" - the difference in how it's approached is staggering.

As for it being over, well, it's not. In Birthright and Conquest you've chosen the wrong path, so the threat is not over at all. And if you want to discuss the politics and future relations of the countries, do you think the Nohrians will just leave the Hoshidans in peace after invading their country, and the Hoshidans will just forget about what happened? The Conquest ending is insulting in how little it answer and how heroically they try to paint Corrin's horrible actions.

In Revelation, everything ends with sunshine and kittens, sure, but so does Radiant Dawn, only it doesn't come across as pandering in the latter.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Thane

[Quintessence]

@Thane, I agree that RD's dialogues is generally better than PoR's, although I do appreciate and consider salvageable some moments like the first part up until Ch8, when Ike confronts Sanaki when she "doubts" about Elincia's bloodline, or how Shihiharam is humilliated by Petrine, or Jill's 'side-story' or the shitter with Ike's and Mist's parents with Lillia and the stuff about the Medallion (which sometimes I think about a mess, though). I think there's nothing to argue here though since we agree to an extent.

Now regarding Fates vs Tellius, I must say RD has a better plot than Fates. Blood Pact is horribly conveniently and fits some holes but at least it is more credible than Valla Curse. Heck, all of RD's story is 10 times more credible than Fates', half of Fates' cast has psychological issues or influence Corrin in such a terrible way. The 8 royals, some retainers, it's dumb, Fates' context is so charged with complexes and issues that they are not addressed or developped in a logical, healthy or good way; instead the darkness of the context of the game is simply there, making no sense and making things worse.

[MCProductions]

What does Radiant Dawn do worse than Fates in terms of storyt? I'm incredibly curious to hear that, since now, early in the morning right before my most difficult foreign exam yet, I can't think of anything at all.

While Augestine covered most of it for me, I have a bit more to add about the stupidity of the bloodpact. RD states that Pelleus fell for the blood pact because he's a naive little shit who never read the fine print. The same game claims that he and Micaiah did are damn near equivalent to what Ike and Elincia did in Path of Radiance. In that case, why the hell didn't the senate at least attempt to get Elincia tricked into signing the Blood Pact? It's not like the things weren't invented yet thanks to how Naesala and Ashnard are handled.

You also have the worthless additions of the wolf Laguz who serve no purpose whatsoever other than to make sure Micaiah gets a heron and two Laguz on her side, and literally everyone being a colossal dumbass about Lehran's Medallion which is mentioned a grand total of ONE time before shit starts to go down concerning it. You have several instances of characters flat out regressing from their characterization in POR like Astrid for example. How did she go from the noble who wanted to prove herself to be a strong knight to the resident blind to reality Makalov fanboy. Oh wait, I did the same thing regarding Nohrrin, so I guess I shouldn't make that point. The new characters barring Micaiah are very forgettable, mostly due to the lack of real supports. And to give credit to Fates' bullshit plot curse, it's really only used to explain why Azura doesn't take more action than she does, whereas the Blood Pact in RD is literally the reason for nearly everything wrong in the world, be it all of Micaiah's and Naesala's actions in RD and Ashnard's rise to power therefore causing the entirety of POR. It's also worth pointing out that Revelations actually shows how picking the other routes foils Anankos's "plan" just as much as Revelations would, as Azura literally states that Valla will be sealed off for 50 something years after that sun swap plot device.

While Micaiah IS called out for her actions, I don't think it's done very well. She can either be the mary sue everyone loves, or a monster everyone hates. RD tries to have her seen as both thru it's branching paths which I respect for them at least trying, but when as much blatant favoritism is shown to the Greil Mercs as RD shows, it makes only the second interpretation seem valid, which makes the entire country of Daein look like a dumbass for continuing to support her and Pelleus.

And as for my last point, where Fates at least TRIED to justify the other routes still existing via the bullshit sun swap plot device in Revelations, RD doesn't justify the blatant filler that is Part 1 and 2, and when Part 1 is rendered completely redundant by the Blood Pact, that's a major problem. At least Awakening's Valm arc, as needless as it was, still had a purpose in giving Validar the time he needed to rebuild Plegia's military for the third arc as well as weaken Ylisse's military for the war Validar was planning.

Edited June 20, 2016 by MCProductions

[Augestein]

The Blood Pact is awful, but it pales in comparison to the plot curse of Valla which is effectively the only reason as to why two thirds of the game is objectively wrong, even though four characters know of the country's presence. It's even less explained and far stupider; we know next to nothing about it, and the characters come close to dropping hints about the place anyway, making me question just how effective the curse is.

Edit: I forgot to mention that Micaiah, as much as I don't like her, gets called out on her actions, and people are planning accordingly for what's going on; people react to the Blood Pact. The plot curse? Not so much. Azura and Corrin just walk around saying "hey, just trust me" - the difference in how it's approached is staggering.

As for it being over, well, it's not. In Birthright and Conquest you've chosen the wrong path, so the threat is not over at all. And if you want to discuss the politics and future relations of the countries, do you think the Nohrians will just leave the Hoshidans in peace after invading their country, and the Hoshidans will just forget about what happened? The Conquest ending is insulting in how little it answer and how heroically they try to paint Corrin's horrible actions.

In Revelation, everything ends with sunshine and kittens, sure, but so does Radiant Dawn, only it doesn't come across as pandering in the latter.

Plot curse is stupid, no doubt and I agree that Azura not opening her mouth was a huge problem and I am of the opinion that Azura should have died as of chapter 6 on BR and CQ. However, the difference is that people just give up on trying to mention Valla. The blood pact is literally responsible for pretty much everything that happens in RD. It's literally "a wizard did it." Even the big reveal with the big bad makes even less sense because they actually didn't do anything, the BP and the senators are what did this. It even happens to be responsible for certain key characters' actions as well, which is worse in my eyes than "this one thing that makes the plot start and then is never mentioned again depending on the route because people can't mention it." I mean the blood pact has Pelleas mentioning that if Zihark and/or Jill rage quit the country they should be safe from the curse which makes me question how effective the blood pact's curse is as well. If everyone can just say "I renounce my position as a Daein citizen." And be fine? Plus, BP is literally responsible for pretty much ... Every villain that's present in PoR through a silly retcon. With that in mind, I find the introduction of the BP much worse than Valla's Curse. The fact that Valla's Curse has less info on it in this case actually does more *for* it than *against* it, because it doesn't bother trying to justify its existence through loopholes. It's simply there.And generally I prefer explanations. But here, both are so stupid that the "this is what makes the plot initially start" works out much better. Fates is a story that's stupid as you travel to the end destination. RD is a story that's stupid when you look back at the entire journey.

Micaiah being called out for her actions is a good thing, but doesn't absolve the plot from its shortcomings however. Even Corrin walking around saying "trust me" doesn't work for Corrin initially in Revelations-- like ever actually. Everyone thinks (s)he's full of garbage and (s)he always has to do something to prove that (s)he wants them to listen. It usually ends with Corrin beating the stuffing out of them and leaving them in a weakened state and then not killing them that results in them not listening.

It's more over than RD in that regard. in BR, Nohr is defeated. In CQ, Hoshido is defeated. Sure, Anankos isn't truly gone, but he's going to have a harder time accomplishing his goals with one group fully reigning domination over both kingdoms really. With RD, everything just kind of stops. It'd be like if in Binding Blade, this evil god appears and kills Zephiel, and then forces the entire continent to defeat it. How does that just stop the current conflicts that were happening on the continent? It doesn't. That's essentially what happened in RD. In Revelations, it's revealed that Anankos wanted Hoshido and Nohr to fight until they destroyed themselves. But one country got defeated and isn't in a state to fight, and probably won't if the new royals play their cards right. The conflict at least got beaten to a pulp in fates. It just "stops" in RD. Valla's ending is pretty silly, I agree, but considering what was happening in Revelations, it still works better; pandering or not.

Like seriously, let's try RD's part 4 with some of the other ones to put into perspective of how ridiculous this is.

Blazing Sword: uh... The quintessence manifests itself into its own force and tries to take over the continent. Eliwood and Nergal must team up to stop this monstrous force. After they defeat the force, Nergal decides that he doesn't want to open the gates anymore because that would be mean. The End.

Sacred Stones: Just before the demon king can fully be revived, the spirits of the ancient heroes return back to Magvel! They start tearing up everything including the demon king's life force. Now the DK and everyone must unite to stop the ancient heroes from wiping out everything as we know it, even the demon king. After they do so, the Demon King realizes that he was a jerk and decides to help the citizens of Grado by stopping the earthquake. Now, demons and humans live on Magvel and get along perfectly fine. The End.

Fortunately, you can't do this with FE1 with the way the story is written. Truly a masterpiece I guess.

And as for my last point, where Fates at least TRIED to justify the other routes still existing via the bullshit sun swap plot device in Revelations, RD doesn't justify the blatant filler that is Part 1 and 2, and when Part 1 is rendered completely redundant by the Blood Pact, that's a major problem. At least Awakening's Valm arc, as needless as it was, still had a purpose in giving Validar the time he needed to rebuild Plegia's military for the third arc as well as weaken Ylisse's military for the war Validar was planning.

Valm's Arc also established that there are other people in the world that are willing to try to stop Grima's revival as well. This is actually good, even if it's poorly done. It also has a little bit of a story arc for Chrom on how he'd want to run his kingdom. Through violence or peace. It doesn't do it well, but it kind of touches upon the subject.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Augestein

[Thane]

While Augestine covered most of it for me, I have a bit more to add about the stupidity of the bloodpact. RD states that Pelleus fell for the blood pact because he's a naive little shit who never read the fine print. The same game claims that he and Micaiah did are damn near equivalent to what Ike and Elincia did in Path of Radiance. In that case, why the hell didn't the senate at least attempt to get Elincia tricked into signing the Blood Pact? It's not like the things weren't invented yet thanks to how Naesala and Ashnard are handled.

You also have the worthless additions of the wolf Laguz who serve no purpose whatsoever other than to make sure Micaiah gets a heron and two Laguz on her side, and literally everyone being a colossal dumbass about Lehran's Medallion which is mentioned a grand total of ONE time before shit starts to go down concerning it. You have several instances of characters flat out regressing from their characterization in POR like Astrid for example. How did she go from the noble who wanted to prove herself to be a strong knight to the resident blind to reality Makalov fanboy. Oh wait, I did the same thing regarding Nohrrin, so I guess I shouldn't make that point. The new characters barring Micaiah are very forgettable, mostly due to the lack of real supports. And to give credit to Fates' bullshit plot curse, it's really only used to explain why Azura doesn't take more action than she does, whereas the Blood Pact in RD is literally the reason for nearly everything wrong in the world, be it all of Micaiah's and Naesala's actions in RD and Ashnard's rise to power therefore causing the entirety of POR. It's also worth pointing out that Revelations actually shows how picking the other routes foils Anankos's "plan" just as much as Revelations would, as Azura literally states that Valla will be sealed off for 50 something years after that sun swap plot device.

While Micaiah IS called out for her actions, I don't think it's done very well. She can either be the mary sue everyone loves, or a monster everyone hates. RD tries to have her seen as both thru it's branching paths which I respect for them at least trying, but when as much blatant favoritism is shown to the Greil Mercs as RD shows, it makes only the second interpretation seem valid, which makes the entire country of Daein look like a dumbass for continuing to support her and Pelleus.

And as for my last point, where Fates at least TRIED to justify the other routes still existing via the bullshit sun swap plot device in Revelations, RD doesn't justify the blatant filler that is Part 1 and 2, and when Part 1 is rendered completely redundant by the Blood Pact, that's a major problem. At least Awakening's Valm arc, as needless as it was, still had a purpose in giving Validar the time he needed to rebuild Plegia's military for the third arc as well as weaken Ylisse's military for the war Validar was planning.

Wait, are we just pointing out flaws now? I thought we were talking about what Fates did better, and I still don't see a single thing. Pelleas being a naïve little shit who indirectly caused a lot of death sounds almost like Corrin, except the latter is worse since they directly cause a lot more suffering and never tried anything else, unlike Pelleas who fought so hard to right his wrong - Corrin gets congratulated for invading a nation full of innocent people.

Pointing out minor characters "regressing" is not a very good thing when defending Fates, as Xander goes back on his word in Conquest in that his original plan is to take over Hoshido with as little bloodshed as possible, and then ignores his one opportunity to exchange four lives for winning the war just so he could sleep at night, and he somehow thinks he's got the moral high ground when dealing with Zora. Corrin goes from standing up to Garon to obeying his every whim.

The plot curse is poorly explained and it does NOT justify four characters not trying everything they have to try and save the world; it's literally the only reason the three Awakening kids are there, and Azura, who knows everything worth knowing even in the very beginning of the game, doesn't even try to talk Corrin into jumping down into the gulf with her. There's no excuse for her not doing anything.

Radiant Dawn having "filler arcs" is vastly different from Fates. In Radiant Dawn they show what the characters from the last game have been doing and how the world looks and they let characters develop - in Fates, a game about "choice", has a golden ending and two objectively wrong ones in which you don't face the final villain, thus leaving the world still at risk and in Conquest a worse place than it was when you started playing.

I don't see anything in your arguments that Fates does better than Radiant Dawn whatsoever.

[Quintessence]

Guys you're giving way too much relevance and value to the Blood Pact figure. In my eyes, the Blood Pact is no more than a figure to make the player face Daein as Ike's Army and face different situations and perspectives. Because what point does the BP has in the game? It literally only impacts mid Part 3 and Part 4, nothing else. Because let's face it, if there wasn't Blood Pact involved then the Laguz Alliance will just meet the Daein Liberation Army and team up against the Senate's schemes. You're giving so much thought on the Blood Pact as if it had major impact on the essence of the game, which is none other than to understand how the forces of Balance and Chaos should be in harmony to make Tellius a prosperous and peaceful land. That's the point of PoR and RD.

Edit: the Blood Pact was a scheme from the Senator's and Izuka by manipulating Pelleas upon signing with blood a loan contract to restore Daein after the Mad King's War. It was all thought from beforehand by Izuka and the Senate since Izuka taught Pelleas about stuff and made him believe he was Ashnard's and Almedha's kid to fulfill their projects.

Edit2: Pelleas lived a secluded life, similar to Corrin, but I dare say Pelleas is a better character than Corrin, in any of his forms.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Quintessence

[Augestein]

Guys you're giving way too much relevance and value to the Blood Pact figure. In my eyes, the Blood Pact is no more than a figure to make the player face Daein as Ike's Army and face different situations and perspectives. Because what point does the BP has in the game? It literally only impacts mid Part 3 and Part 4, nothing else. Because let's face it, if there wasn't Blood Pact involved then the Laguz Alliance will just meet the Daein Liberation Army and team up against the Senate's schemes. You're giving so much thought on the Blood Pact as if it had major impact on the essence of the game, which is none other than to understand how the forces of Balance and Chaos should be in harmony to make Tellius a prosperous and peaceful land. That's the point of PoR and RD.

Edit: the Blood Pact was a scheme from the Senator's and Izuka by manipulating Pelleas upon signing with blood a loan contract to restore Daein after the Mad King's War. It was all thought from beforehand by Izuka and the Senate since Izuka taught Pelleas about stuff and made him believe he was Ashnard's and Almedha's kid to fulfill their projects.

Edit2: Pelleas lived a secluded life, similar to Corrin, but I dare say Pelleas is a better character than Corrin, in any of his forms.

Yes, and it's the same for the Valla curse in Fates. It's simply to make the characters not immediately charge down the canyon with both the entire forces of Hoshido and Nohr and wreck Anankos immediately. BP retroactively states that it's what causes Ashnard to get to where he is in PoR, it's responsible for Naesala's actions in PoR apparently. What happens with Valla's curse is literally the same type of writing. The difference is that pretty much all of the conflict in RD basically degenerates to "the senate." The same cannot be said about the conflicts in Fates. Hoshido and Nohr already have bad ties with each other, and as far as the history that seems apparent in Fates, they have never had particularly good ties.

Yes, and MC Productions brings up a good point as well. Why wasn't the BP used on Elincia? Could they just read better or something? Would she even know how to recognize a BP to not sign it? How would one even refuse to sign a blood pact, because to normal eyes it'd look like they were refusing to sign an alliance / for peace.

Pelleas is a better character than Corrin by virtue of not being an avatar character. Mark is like the only good one.

The plot curse is poorly explained and it does NOT justify four characters not trying everything they have to try and save the world; it's literally the only reason the three Awakening kids are there, and Azura, who knows everything worth knowing even in the very beginning of the game, doesn't even try to talk Corrin into jumping down into the gulf with her. There's no excuse for her not doing anything.

And with the BP, there's no reason to not have someone like Jill, Zihark, Sothe, Tauroneo, or even Volug go back over to Ike's team and just plain say "Psst, there's a blood pact that's why they fight." The only thing to "stop" this is "we have invisible spies." I mean, freaking really? Really now? Weak. Like weaker than Azura not talking weak. Azura being stupid is a flaw, but stupidity isn't a plothole. Just the character being a complete moron. The only thing we get is that it might do is that it might kill at a rate of X number of people for X number of days. Killing the senates team and fixing the blood pact would definitely kill less than random deaths of soldiers from the BP. Even with it there, doing nothing would potentially kill slower than participating in a freaking war. And how long would the senate actually last against ... The entire continent? Part 4 demonstrates this: not long at all, and these were super goddess blessed senate followers as well.

[Thane]

And with the BP, there's no reason to not have someone like Jill, Zihark, Sothe, Tauroneo, or even Volug go back over to Ike's team and just plain say "Psst, there's a blood pact that's why they fight." The only thing to "stop" this is "we have invisible spies." I mean, freaking really? Really now? Weak. Like weaker than Azura not talking weak. Azura being stupid is a flaw, but stupidity isn't a plothole. Just the character being a complete moron. The only thing we get is that it might do is that it might kill at a rate of X number of people for X number of days. Killing the senates team and fixing the blood pact would definitely kill less than random deaths of soldiers from the BP. Even with it there, doing nothing would potentially kill slower than participating in a freaking war. And how long would the senate actually last against ... The entire continent? Part 4 demonstrates this: not long at all, and these were super goddess blessed senate followers as well.

I think we've reached an impasse here: you're really not convincing me, and I don't think anything I say will change your mind either.

To me, the problem isn't only that Azura doesn't talk, it's that she's even fine with invading Hoshido and killing the people she grew up with and not solve anything in the long term - how is the world going to protect itself from Anankos when Hoshido is in ruins and Azura is gone? The only other three with knowledge of Valla leave as well; when playing Birthright or Conquest, you're playing the canonically wrong choice that dooms the world, and this is in a game that was supposed to be about choice.

It's also worth keeping in mind that Azura is NOT the only one who could do something about this; Inigo, Severa and Owain, whose only reason for being there is to stop Anankos, are fine with murdering innocents as well without doing anything to try and improve the situation.

Keep in mind, I also think the Blood Pact is awful, but it doesn't come anywhere near the plot curse of Valla, which just exists and doesn't actually get explained in the slightest. Not only that, but unlike in Radiant Dawn, characters hardly react to it - hell, characters don't react or talk about anything; there's no main story dialogue in the game aside from exposition and plot related talk. There's no chemistry between the characters.