In which blah the Prussian blind reacts to FE Fates: Conquest

[Tolvir]

Even as a mother she should have expressed some disappointment regarding Corrin's atrocious life choices because that's what mothers do. The problem isn't Mikoto being a mother, it's that the script doesn't have the guts to actually call Corrin (and by extension, the player) out for their mistakes. Really, IntSys should have just had the real Garon show up during that scene instead and not had anyone from Hoshido show up, to make it less jarring.

Well first off, there is no reason to call the player out for their mistakes, this isnt Mass Effect with Paragon/Renegade choices, we got one choice in this game, and that is what family we sided with. No reason to punish the player for that choice. Also, the one that really needs to be blamed is Azura, for being dumb enough to bring up that idea, and not try and find any other options first. Azura could of easily waited to at least show Leo and Camilla the truth as well, instead of just Corrin. Corrin only followed the only option he thought he had at the time.

I do agree, real Garon showing up would of been a good idea since it would of allowed the player to see what the real person was like, not the possessed slime.

Why show disappointment? Its the last time your child is going to see you, do you really want the last memory of you in their head to be you chastising them for their life choices, or would you rather it be you being supportive and loving to them, even if you dont agree with what happened? Why would the fall of Hoshido matter to Mikoto anymore when she is dead?

We have no evidence to show that Fates' afterlife works like this, so this is kind of a moot point.

In that case, so is the point of saying that she should of acted angered with Corrin during that scene, because we dont know.

Edited April 30, 2016 by Tolvir

[saisymbolic]

For what it's worth, Mikoto should have, at the very least, shown disappointment, but since the game refuse the mere idea Nohrmui could do anything wrong, so here we go.

Plus, she is dead, showing anger would be pointless at this point. but she should do more than a shitty 'you can do it' anime (crappy) scene.

Then again, we're talking about a sue that can magically create barrier of non-violence, coming straight from mary-suetopia-not-japan.

I never understood that about Mikoto. What grants her the power to create a magical barrier that defuses violence? Also, is it ever explained that she is apparently precognitive? What? Does she profile scenarios like Agent York in Deadly Premonition?

[Sunwoo]

Mikoto is not a character, she's a plot device that exists just so Kamui can get away with everything and do whatever the fuck they want.

EDIT: Also, on the point that Kamui is her biological child while Ryouma and Takumi are only adopted. At this point does it even matter? Because Kamui may be her blood child, but she has most certainly spent more time with her Hoshidan step children and raising them than she ever got the chance to with Kamui. She should be equally giving of a fuck to all of them. I'd even understand if she preferred the children SHE HAD RAISED more than the blood child that she didn't get to see grow up.

Edited April 30, 2016 by Sunwoo

[Azure Sen]

Well first off, there is no reason to call the player out for their mistakes, this isnt Mass Effect with Paragon/Renegade choices, we got one choice in this game, and that is what family we sided with. No reason to punish the player for that choice.

That wasn't my point, though admittedly I should have been clearer. Corrin should have been called out for his actions in Conquest's narrative , but IntSys didn't do it because they were too afraid of offending the people who project onto Corrin.

Also, the one that really needs to be blamed is Azura, for being dumb enough to bring up that idea, and not try and find any other options first. Azura could of easily waited to at least show Leo and Camilla the truth as well, instead of just Corrin. Corrin only followed the only option he thought he had at the time.

That's Corrin's fault for not even considering other options before diving head-first into Operation Screw Hoshido. I'm not saying that Azura doesn't deserve her fair share of blame, but it takes two idiots to dance the stupid tango.

Why show disappointment? Its the last time your child is going to see you, do you really want the last memory of you in their head to be you chastising them for their life choices, or would you rather it be you being supportive and loving to them, even if you dont agree with what happened? Why would the fall of Hoshido matter to Mikoto anymore when she is dead?

1) You're saying it like the only disagreeable thing Corrin did on Conquest was join Nohr. Corrin does some horrible stuff in Conquest, all for the sake of himself, the Nohr siblings and no one else. Pep talks from the dead like that are usually not given to those who condemn entire nations to their destruction for selfish reasons, after all. It doesn't matter that it's the last time Nohrrin is going to see her; after all he's done to them and Hoshido, he doesn't deserve hers or Takumi's or Ryoma's forgiveness.

2( Yeah, she's dead, but that doesn't automatically mean that she wouldn't care about what's happening in the world of the living. She does still have earthly attachments, after all, otherwise she wouldn't have shown up in that scene at all. (I mean, in an actual well-written version of that scene, anyway.)

I never understood that about Mikoto. What grants her the power to create a magical barrier that defuses violence? Also, is it ever explained that she is apparently precognitive? What? Does she profile scenarios like Agent York in Deadly Premonition?

My headcanon is that it's Valla magic she's using and it's actually slowly killing her because it was meant for use by dragons on other dragons, but that's just me filling in the blanks that IntSys didn't bother to.

Edited April 30, 2016 by AzureSen

[blah the Prussian]

So I won't finish the game today because I just realized I was spending today with friends. So the RNG Godess will pay in blood tomorrow.

[kcirrot]

Uh, Hoshido? What else would it be?

Well, she's the Queen of Hoshido, but it's also true that:

[spoiler=What I meant in spoilers]She was being hidden by Sumeragi after she fled with Arete from Valla. Sumeragi might have loved her, but she wasn't his first wife and she really isn't a native to her adopted home. She's a Vallite princess and was more or less married to Anankos. Probably not that important, but Hoshido is one of her countries, just not her first.

[B.Leu]

Mikoto is not a character, she's a plot device that exists just so Kamui can get away with everything and do whatever the fuck they want.

EDIT: Also, on the point that Kamui is her biological child while Ryouma and Takumi are only adopted. At this point does it even matter? Because Kamui may be her blood child, but she has most certainly spent more time with her Hoshidan step children and raising them than she ever got the chance to with Kamui. She should be equally giving of a fuck to all of them. I'd even understand if she preferred the children SHE HAD RAISED more than the blood child that she didn't get to see grow up.

You underestimate the love that a mother can have for her very own child from her very own womb. To be perfectly honest, I'm only half-surprised that she did not shown any sort of disappointment toward Nohrmui.

I also wouldn't be surprised if Kamui was simply on top of her list of priorities. Good/Shitty story or not.

That's only my opinion though.

Gee, a character that is a walking plot device... reminds me of Aqua for some reasons.

But yeah seriously, a barrier that stop non-violence though, that is some serious BS of massive proportion. And that's also why Nohr created the Faceless in the first place, which is another bunch of BS altogether.

Someone need to pull a plot device of non-violence to discover Necromancy. The heck.

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

1) You're saying it like the only disagreeable thing Corrin did on Conquest was join Nohr. Corrin does some horrible stuff in Conquest, all for the sake of himself, the Nohr siblings and no one else. Pep talks from the dead like that are usually not given to those who condemn entire nations to their destruction for selfish reasons, after all. It doesn't matter that it's the last time Nohrrin is going to see her; after all he's done to them and Hoshido, he doesn't deserve hers or Takumi's or Ryoma's forgiveness.

It's not all selfish reasons. Garon is a clear threat to the world and two people aren't going to be able to take down a super monster who is also hiding behind a large army (yes, yes, Corrin can be over-leveled to solo Garon, but that's not the point). The first step to a successful coup is to convince powerful people to join in, which are the siblings and possibly other unnamed commanders. The situation is that if they can't even convince the siblings the know that Garon is evil, what chance do they have of convincing other random dudes? These are all legitimate concerns. The problem is that the story blatantly works to completely shut down any logical solution. Curse about talking about Valla out of nowhere. The crystal breaks without warning. They don't bother to use the crystal at an appropriate time (when the siblings are around or hell, even Gunter, who was right behind them, and whose word as a witness might hold more weight due to him being an old veteran). That entire scene could be replaced by a neon sign that says, "Excuse us while we Diabolus ex Machina".

[Dark Sage]

It's not all selfish reasons. Garon is a clear threat to the world and two people aren't going to be able to take down a super monster who is also hiding behind a large army (yes, yes, Corrin can be over-leveled to solo Garon, but that's not the point). The first step to a successful coup is to convince powerful people to join in, which are the siblings and possibly other unnamed commanders. The situation is that if they can't even convince the siblings the know that Garon is evil, what chance do they have of convincing other random dudes? These are all legitimate concerns. The problem is that the story blatantly works to completely shut down any logical solution. Curse about talking about Valla out of nowhere. The crystal breaks without warning. They don't bother to use the crystal at an appropriate time (when the siblings are around or hell, even Gunter, who was right behind them, and whose word as a witness might hold more weight due to him being an old veteran). That entire scene could be replaced by a neon sign that says, "Excuse us while we Diabolus ex Machina".

Mikoto, Takumi, and Ryoma all know nothing about Slime Garon though. I mean, we the players do but none of the Hoshidans do.

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

If they've been looking down from heaven or whatever it is enough to know the situation with zombie Takumi, then it's quite likely they just watched Corrin cut slime Garon down. That aside, I took from the wording that what I quoted was general accusations toward Corrin with relation to the entire campaign. Corrin did want to save both nations from Garon, but the story was all, "Just gonna preempt you here: stupidity is the only option. Have fun."

[Azure Sen]

It's not all selfish reasons. Garon is a clear threat to the world and two people aren't going to be able to take down a super monster who is also hiding behind a large army (yes, yes, Corrin can be over-leveled to solo Garon, but that's not the point). The first step to a successful coup is to convince powerful people to join in, which are the siblings and possibly other unnamed commanders. The situation is that if they can't even convince the siblings the know that Garon is evil, what chance do they have of convincing other random dudes? These are all legitimate concerns. The problem is that the story blatantly works to completely shut down any logical solution. Curse about talking about Valla out of nowhere. The crystal breaks without warning. They don't bother to use the crystal at an appropriate time (when the siblings are around or hell, even Gunter, who was right behind them, and whose word as a witness might hold more weight due to him being an old veteran). That entire scene could be replaced by a neon sign that says, "Excuse us while we Diabolus ex Machina".

The problem is that the narrative does a really bad job of actually showing Corrin's motives as being selfless, mostly because he has a pretty severe case of "it's all about me." Almost every consequence he ever discusses regarding the war against Hoshido is about him and his feelings and his relationship with the Hoshido siblings and all the the sacrifices he'll be making for the sake of peace, not about how horribly Hoshido is going to suffer as a result of the pointless war he's perpetuating because he's an idiot. Corrin wanting to spare the Hoshidans is another example of this. It looks selfless on the surface, but he's really doing it to assuage his own guilt. He refuses to move against King Garon initially because, and I quote, "he's still my father and the father of my siblings. Must we shame and defeat him?" Note that he says this to Azura after agreeing with her that Garon's an asshole who treats his kids like crap and agreeing with her that the best and only way to end the war is to dethrone him.

Edited May 1, 2016 by AzureSen

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Well, yes, the story does have a bad case of only caring about named characters when it comes to that kind of stuff, but it's clear that Corrin somehow cares about the Hoshido siblings despite them more or less being strangers. Maybe there is some assuaging of guilt there, but I didn't really get as heavy of an impression of it as you do.

As far as refusing to move against Garon, Corrin still comes around (despite the ridiculous plan). And fighting Garon isn't a just a problem for Corrin. The other Nohr siblings have a hard time turning on him despite seeing that he is literally a monster. I figure it's kinda like how abuse victims find themselves unable to turn against their abusers despite horrible verbal or physical abuse.

[VantagePoint]

Well, yes, the story does have a bad case of only caring about named characters when it comes to that kind of stuff, but it's clear that Corrin somehow cares about the Hoshido siblings despite them more or less being strangers. Maybe there is some assuaging of guilt there, but I didn't really get as heavy of an impression of it as you do.

As far as refusing to move against Garon, Corrin still comes around (despite the ridiculous plan). And fighting Garon isn't a just a problem for Corrin. The other Nohr siblings have a hard time turning on him despite seeing that he is literally a monster. I figure it's kinda like how abuse victims find themselves unable to turn against their abusers despite horrible verbal or physical abuse.

It's wholly possible for him to still care about them, but returning to Nohr with zero plan of action for Corrin to take is more or less, the worst possible way for Corrin to show how much he loves these siblings. If Corrin had been thinking about changing Nohr from within from day one, but he could only see that happening if he faned the fires of revolution there. but failed horribly due to the circumstances he's placed under, it would've been a great opprotunity for character development as well as a better excuse to join Nohr. Because unlike when Corrin joins Hoshido, Nohrrin has no real wiggle room to say he still cares about the Country he didn't choose, since the Country he did choose is actively fighting in a war against them and he'd be very obviously, fighting in said war if he joins either side, and Corrin has absolutely nothing of value to say when Takumi and Ryoma confront him before chapter 15, because he's still claiming how he wants the best for both Countries, yet only working for Nohr's best interests. Even Ryoma very blatantly points out even if Corrin wants to play peacemaker, there's no way in holy hell Garon's going to want to play ball.

If the game treated all of this as a character flaw however, taking advantage of Corrin's naivity to ignite some sort of interesting character development and called him out for this naive line of thinking, it would've been fine. But instead, the player is subject to multiple chapters of "Corrin din du nothin", from the nonsensical "okay guise, nobody dies", to the ridiculous "I'm doing this for Nohr AND Hoshido", or even the whole "I want the best for both Countries" bullshit. Nohrin is one step away from being an outright Mary Sue, because the world around him suddenly contorts to accommodate him with "The Hoshidians just don't understand, this is for the best!" or "He doesn't kill anyone personally, so he's a good boy!"

Hoshido Corrin can have the "I want the best for both Countries" line, because he makes it abundantly clear that Garon's the one he's betraying, a person who the Nohrian siblings only see as in the right because of their daddy bias. Seeing Nohrrin spout this however, is jarring considering their actions contradict their words and nobody really calls him out on this.

[BruceLee]

If there is no anger or sadness in the afterlife, then why would Ryoma, Mikoto, and Takumi be angry? Sure, Corrin lead to their death and the fall of the kingdom, but they are in paradise now. They dont have to worry about the land of the living anymore. So why would they care anymore, now that they are dead and living in paradise, that their kingdom has fallen?

Why would the fall of Hoshido matter to Mikoto anymore when she is dead?

....are you serious? Because fuck all of their loved ones that are still alive right? Edited May 1, 2016 by BruceLee

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

It's wholly possible for him to still care about them, but returning to Nohr with zero plan of action for Corrin to take is more or less, the worst possible way for Corrin to show how much he loves these siblings. If Corrin had been thinking about changing Nohr from within from day one, but he could only see that happening if he faned the fires of revolution there. but failed horribly due to the circumstances he's placed under, it would've been a great opprotunity for character development as well as a better excuse to join Nohr. Because unlike when Corrin joins Hoshido, Nohrrin has no real wiggle room to say he still cares about the Country he didn't choose, since the Country he did choose is actively fighting in a war against them and he'd be very obviously, fighting in said war if he joins either side, and Corrin has absolutely nothing of value to say when Takumi and Ryoma confront him before chapter 15, because he's still claiming how he wants the best for both Countries, yet only working for Nohr's best interests. Even Ryoma very blatantly points out even if Corrin wants to play peacemaker, there's no way in holy hell Garon's going to want to play ball.

If the game treated all of this as a character flaw however, taking advantage of Corrin's naivity to ignite some sort of interesting character development and called him out for this naive line of thinking, it would've been fine. But instead, the player is subject to multiple chapters of "Corrin din du nothin", from the nonsensical "okay guise, nobody dies", to the ridiculous "I'm doing this for Nohr AND Hoshido", or even the whole "I want the best for both Countries" bullshit. Nohrin is one step away from being an outright Mary Sue, because the world around him suddenly contorts to accommodate him with "The Hoshidians just don't understand, this is for the best!" or "He doesn't kill anyone personally, so he's a good boy!"

Don't get me wrong, I definitely think the story is full of a lot of stuff that doesn't make sense, but I feel the problem is more with how the devs forced the story than the character of Corrin (who is pretty much the most basic of naive chosen JRPG hero that other games have been able to make work). So they decided that events had to happen in this particular sequence and just set up a bunch of really contrived circumstances to force that direction as the only way. And even then, there's plenty of opportunities and the story chooses to either ignore them or have someone (usually Azura) ruin it.

Thinking about changing it from day one would have been cool, but I'd have also been okay if Corrin decided to find a way to change it despite having no plan if that lack of plan hadn't involved going right back to Garon and becoming his puppet. It might've been okay for a few chapters while Corrin established a power base, but for the entire campaign just made it obvious how much the story itself had to force basically everything to stop Corrin from ever being able to logic (and I feel like the whole story justifying it is more it trying to justify its own railroading by saying "See? See? Corrin was right. We totally didn't ruin the plot!"). Like, I was totally blind going into this and expecting that we might end up with something like Suikoden I where the protagonist finds a bunch of rebels and joins up with them. And the game almost made this look like it was happening. Two chapters into Conquest, Corrin meets the Ice Tribe and secures their allegiance, then... the game promptly forgets about them forever. Completely missed opportunity. Corrin then acquires the power of the Rainbow Sage and meets up with yet another rebel cell. This is totally the perfect time to unite the dissidents and bring their newfound power to bear against Garon (and directly opposing Garon would add more weight to the reservations of Garon still being the Nohrian siblings' father), right? No, the story says Corrin has to stay Garon's plaything because reasons.

Then the story does this again at the end of C15. The crystal is an opportunity for Corrin to actually gather power against Garon and Azura decides to use it without Gunter or any of the siblings around. Oh, and it breaks, because reasons. And there's this oh-so-convenient curse that prevents them from talking about any of this.

So the very story itself conspires to take away all of the good choices, leaving Corrin looking like an impotent moron (granted, Corrin is pretty stupid an naive, but this pushes several magnitudes beyond that), and then covers its ass by going, "Oh, uh, right, Corrin's choices are still right because there's no way our story could possibly be horribly forced. Nope! Nosiree!"

[eclipse]

Even as a mother she should have expressed some disappointment regarding Corrin's atrocious life choices because that's what mothers do. The problem isn't Mikoto being a mother, it's that the script doesn't have the guts to actually call Corrin (and by extension, the player) out for their mistakes. Really, IntSys should have just had the real Garon show up during that scene instead and not had anyone from Hoshido show up, to make it less jarring.

She is not your mother. Or mine.

Why is this important? Because mothers react differently to everyone and everything, especially one who has had virtually no contact with her kid during most of his/her life. There's something known as a honeymoon phase in relationships, where everything is roses. I think Mikoto was still stuck in that phase when she died.

[blah the Prussian]

The real Garon showing up for that scene would have actually been quite interesting.

[Sunwoo]

The real Garon showing up for that scene would have actually been quite interesting.

Unfortunately, it would've been too interesting.

I'm utterly convinced that the only reason those scenes exist is to convince the player, through the opposite route characters who died, that "it's okay that you killed us! We're behind you now!"

Jeez.

[blah the Prussian]

So, advice for the endgame on normal. Your snark is on the line here, ladies and gentlemen!

[saisymbolic]

So, advice for the endgame on normal. Your snark is on the line here, ladies and gentlemen!

Well, you could just zoom through, comforted by the fact that a unit's death is irrelevant outside of ending monologues. You could pair up your two strongest units, send them down to Takumi to beat the living hell out of him and keep your other units to pick off the randy enemies. Draconic Hex saved my life in that battle. I paired up my Corrinmui with their spouse (Jakob, whose personal skill helped) and used them as bait to weaken Takumi, then moved in to beat that ass. I didn't really use the Dragon Veins, to be honest. I got frustrated because I didn't understand how it worked and just healed or ignored the damage done.

There might be a better way to do it but I personally brute-forced it.

[Sunwoo]

So, advice for the endgame on normal. Your snark is on the line here, ladies and gentlemen!

Put yourself on phoenix mode.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Use staff to neutralize the enemies i guess?

[Water Mage]

Don't rush at the start. It will only make you lose units.

Start rushing by the time you are near Takumi. Don't attack Takumi with units that aren't paired up on defensive. That's how it worked for me.

Remember, your walls are limited as well! So plan ahead!

[blah the Prussian]

How exactly do the walls work? Are they the only things that can block Takumi's attacks, or can the rubble do that too?

[eclipse]

The walls will block Takumi's attack. Not the rubble.

Oh, right, y'know all those cool staves that you've been hoarding (I hope)? Use 'em.