The Official Ultima Super Battle Cruise Fortress Topic Deluxe!

[BBM]

8/10

Its fast and has good Sp. Atk. Does good throughout the game. But honestly I just don't really like it for some reason which is weird because in every other gen the grass starter is my favorite. So yeah.

wut

i dont even

treecko is da best

[The_Purple_Knight]

8/10 nice stats , but crappy movepool

[Venusaur]

Eh, Treecko starts off pretty bad due to not getting very many high power moves, though Bullet Seed can help. Doesn't even get very many support moves like Sleep Powder and Leech Seed. Leaf Blade is the only real power move running off of its Special Attack, and that comes after Norman most likely... It does, however, clean up very nicely against Juan and Wallace, though you have to watch out for Ice moves. A pity that it's terrible midgame, though... Locking you out of the other starters doesn't really do it very many favors either. Great EXP group, though!

So... 7/10, with no bias.

[BBM]

A pokemon being inferior relative to another pokemon does not explicitly reduce their rating.

I'm only being so anal because it's Treecko.

[Ema Skye]

Not much of a Treecko fan. He's pretty reliable, but I prefer having Lotad (and Torchic for that matter). His start is weak due to Absorb being his strongest move at a measily 20 BP, but it is better than lots of things early like Ralts, Lotad and Seedot). No grass support moves mean that Treecko is designed to be offensive, which it does rather well. Wattson's Steel-types, Flannery, Norman (way too weak to take a hit from Slaking) and Winona slow Treecko down midgame, but Hoenn's endgame being close to exclusively Water-types makes it very happy.

My biggest beef with Treecko is that it stops me from getting Torchic, the best Pokemon in the game. I'd love to have both Treecko and Torchic, but since I can only have one of them, I'm going to pick Torchic.

4/10 - Too much meh time for not enough awesome time

[DarthMikey]

I have a hard time not holding it against him that he's so outclassed by other Grass starters like Bulbasaur or Turtwig, but he's quite good anyways. Very high Sp Atk and Spd, but he has a weak movepool with which to take advantage of the stats. No Leech Seed? Really? Early on his offense is bolstered by the Bullet Seed TM, but it's still nothing particularly special. Leaf Blade rapes later, but it's still annoying when it's pretty much your only good move.

I sound kind of pedantic about the Treecko line, but I really like their awesome designs and they're still definitely high up in the more useful half of RSE's dex. Besides, he/she/it/their (idk anymore) availability exceeds that of any other Pokemon, and Hoenn is general is pretty Water-heavy, so they have a lot of general use potential despite sometimes weak gym performance.

8.5/10

Not much of a Treecko fan. He's pretty reliable, but I prefer having Lotad (and Torchic for that matter). His start is weak due to Absorb being his strongest move at a measily 20 BP, but it is better than lots of things early like Ralts, Lotad and Seedot). No grass support moves mean that Treecko is designed to be offensive, which it does rather well. Wattson's Steel-types, Flannery, Norman (way too weak to take a hit from Slaking) and Winona slow Treecko down midgame, but Hoenn's endgame being close to exclusively Water-types makes it very happy.

My biggest beef with Treecko is that it stops me from getting Torchic, the best Pokemon in the game. I'd love to have both Treecko and Torchic, but since I can only have one of them, I'm going to pick Torchic.

4/10 - Too much meh time for not enough awesome time

Aren't we assuming use of Treecko? I get the feeling you're docking him a lot of points just for keeping you from Torchic, which would be a no-no. I also don't really agree with rating him down so much just for his weaker gym battles despite the fact that he has the best availability in the game, bar none, but that's just my opinion.

Edited June 15, 2012 by Cosmic_Harold

[BBM]

Not much of a Treecko fan. He's pretty reliable, but I prefer having Lotad (and Torchic for that matter). His start is weak due to Absorb being his strongest move at a measily 20 BP, but it is better than lots of things early like Ralts, Lotad and Seedot). No grass support moves mean that Treecko is designed to be offensive, which it does rather well. Wattson's Steel-types, Flannery, Norman (way too weak to take a hit from Slaking) and Winona slow Treecko down midgame, but Hoenn's endgame being close to exclusively Water-types makes it very happy.

My biggest beef with Treecko is that it stops me from getting Torchic, the best Pokemon in the game. I'd love to have both Treecko and Torchic, but since I can only have one of them, I'm going to pick Torchic.

4/10 - Too much meh time for not enough awesome time

1) Grovyle can most definitely take 1 hit from Slaking.

2) Bagging on a pokemon for being inferior to another is against the rules.

3) Mudkip>>>>Torchic if you want to talk about which starter is "the best".

[Ema Skye]

I didn't dock him any points for taking Torchic away from me, I merely stated it.

Availability means nothing if you suck at using it. From my experiences, Treecko has been a liability in the midgame and I've dropped him numerous times because training him becomes too much of a chore.

@BBM: Fighting STAB is soooooo much better than Ground STAB. Blaziken has better offense, and better speed than Swampert, and in-game that is what matters, not durability.

Edited June 15, 2012 by Lucina

[BBM]

But a 4/10? That's extremely harsh. I wouldn't give Chikorita 4/10, and she's probably the worst starter in all of Pokemon. Whatever, I'm not this thread's manager, so I'll let it go, but I'll argue against every single pokemon you rate higher than Treecko who's not worthy of it.

Mudkip vs Torchic? How is this even a contest? Mudkip stomps Roxanne, who Torchic can't even handle until it evolves into Combusken. Marshtomp's Mud Shot actually has higher power than Combusken's Peck against Brawly, so Combusken's slightly higher Attack doesn't matter. Marshtomp walls Wattson, has both Mud Shot and Water Gun for SE STAB against Flannery, admittedly loses to Combusken at Norman, can bust out Ice Beam for Winona, has SE Surf and Ice Beam vs Blaziken getting OHKOd against Psychic at Tate+Liza, wins Juan/Wallace, loses at Sydney, wins at Phoebe, wins at Glacia, wins at Drake, and wins at Wallace but loses at Steven. Fighting STAB is actually not that good at all ingame Hoenn.

[ZemZem]

Not much of a Treecko fan. He's pretty reliable, but I prefer having Lotad (and Torchic for that matter). His start is weak due to Absorb being his strongest move at a measily 20 BP, but it is better than lots of things early like Ralts, Lotad and Seedot). No grass support moves mean that Treecko is designed to be offensive, which it does rather well. Wattson's Steel-types, Flannery, Norman (way too weak to take a hit from Slaking) and Winona slow Treecko down midgame, but Hoenn's endgame being close to exclusively Water-types makes it very happy.

My biggest beef with Treecko is that it stops me from getting Torchic, the best Pokemon in the game. I'd love to have both Treecko and Torchic, but since I can only have one of them, I'm going to pick Torchic.

4/10 - Too much meh time for not enough awesome time

Hmm...on one hand this rating is justified...but on the other hand, it's way too low...

EDIT: Lucina, please revise your rating, as the criteria here is awful. And don't compare it to other Pokemon.

Edited June 15, 2012 by Folgore Orange

[The_Purple_Knight]

I don't think any starter should ever get lower then a 5. They're all have above average stat wise, have the best availability, and usually have access to decent stab moves .

Edited June 15, 2012 by The_Purple_Knight

[Shadow Mir]

My biggest beef with Treecko is that it stops me from getting Torchic, the best Pokemon in the game. I'd love to have both Treecko and Torchic, but since I can only have one of them, I'm going to pick Torchic.

Personally, I swear by Mudkip being better than Torchic, but ehhh, that's just me.

[MacLovin]

Starter/10

Which is 10/10

It's a solid mon that gets the job done.

[Naglfar]

Nice idea is nice.

[spoiler=What my scale of ratings actually means]Ratings are from zero to ten. Battle utility is considered, availability's influence on the rating is weak.

0/10: Zero utility. Either never exists or is of no value.

1/10: Almost useless. I would advice against using this unless you have no other options.

2/10: Terrible. If you really want to use it, go ahead, but your fondness of the pokemon may be ruined.

3/10: Unserviceable. May find a place on a specialised team but you aren't going to find it very helpful most of the time.

4/10: Poor. May have a niche in which you'll find it briefly useful, but aside from that there are always far superior options.

5/10: Average. Can't be called bad, but is likely to have a crippling problem that always holds them back.

6/10: Decent. Nothing's really wrong with it, but it doesn't excel either.

7/10: Above average. The kind of pokemon that you'll always be happy to have on your team.

8/10: Strong. Not perfect, but capable of carrying any team.

9/10: Exceptional. Will typically make a significant impact even in a disadvantageous situation.

10/10: God tier. Nigh-infallible, and expect its weaknesses to have workarounds.

Normal play:

As a starter, the Treecko line requires no babying, which is a really good trait to have. Outspeeds everything and does great damage when Leaf Blade comes along. Falls short in a few areas due to a lack of coverage and a tendency to have bad matchups at the worst times, but you need to level your other party members at some point, right? 9/10

Zero experience:

Treecko carries your team until Rustboro and makes the gym a hell of a lot easier with Bullet Seed, then stops existing for the rest of the game. Grovyle and Sceptile don't exist. Recommended.

[Shotguner159]

Charizard is by far the best final form of a Kanto starter (High Sp. Atk + Speed, decent everything else), and with the gaining of a Flying-type loses the weakness to Ground-type moves, and makes Fighting-type moves not very effective and makes Bug and Grass type attacks become even weaker on him, but this is a mixed blessing, as it makes Rock's effectiveness 4x, adds a 2x weakness to thunder, and allows Ice to damage him normally. He also has a very varied movepool, being able to learn Normal, Fighting, Bug, Ground, Rock, Dragon, Steel, Flying and Fighting-type moves. It can also learn the HM Fly, which allows it to serve as quick transport to Pokemon Centers if needed. Sadly, he has something of a slow start getting there, as he faces significant trouble in the first Gym vs Onix, and has no chance at all in the water Gym, unless very overleveled. He should become a Charmeleon before/during the third gym and isn't a bad choice for it, and is capable of using your Dig TM to deal SE damage to the electric types. Extremely effective against the fourth gym due to the overwhelming amount of Grass-types. In your first fight with Giovanni, he should watch out for Onix's Rock Throw, but other than that doesn't fair a huge disadvantage. He should become a Charizard prior to the fifth Gym and still isn't a bad choice as if he still knows Dig, can deal SE damage and if not, has decent enough attack that his contribution there will be very useful. He will help to steamroll through the TR mooks, and his useful against Giovanni, as his Flying type negates their ground type moves, and can be taught Brick Break through TM in order to deal with Rhyhorn if needed, and is strong enough to handle the other three without too much fuss. He is a good choice against Sabrina because he hits her Venomoth with SE, and has physical moves like Fly, Slash and Steel Wing to get past the high Sp. Def of her other Pokemon. The way to Cinnabar is filled with Water-types, and he isn't a very good choice to bring along there. He IS a good choice to bring to fight against Blaine due to his Sp. Def holding of the Dark type attacks, and his Fire-type and Sp. Def blocking the Fire-type moves, leaving only Normal and Flying-type moves to be used against him, and he can be taught Rock-Slide by Move Tutor to hit them super effectively. He also fairs well against Giovanni, capable of using Brick Break to take down his Rhyhorns if needed, and since the others don't have Rock-Type moves, he can go toe-to-toe with them without too much worry. He's a very poor choice to face Lorelei with, as 4/5 of he Pokemon know a water type move, and due to his flying type, takes normal damage from their Ice type moves, though his Sp. Def allows him to take a couple of hits. He faces something of a neutral matchup against Bruno, as 3/5 of his Pokemon know a Rock-type attack, but he can easily take care of the Onix's, and can use Fly to deal major damage to the Fighting-types. He can hold his own against Agatha, and can be taught Earthquake to quickly deal with her Arbok, but her other Pokemon are much trickier. He is a poor choice to use against Lance, as the Aerodactyl knows a Rock type attack, and he cannot hit the Gyarados SE, but can be taught Dragon Claw to deal SE damage to the Dragon-types. He's a very good choice to use against Blue, as the only Pokemon Blue has that poses a huge challenge against him are Rhydon and Blastoise, and he can use Brick Break to fight with the Rhydon more evenly.

The Char line will usually find some way to be useful in every situation and plus, it looks cool.

8/10

[BBM]

Useless until you get to Surge, then he's only decent. But you've got access to Geodude and Diglett, so it's not like he's making up for his problems. He rocks vs Eirika, and then is just average for Koga and Sabrina, while not being too hot vs Blaine. Giovanni is a mixed bag, as some of his Pokemon have Rock Blast which kills Charizard, although the he pretty much walls the Nidos and Dugtrio. Lorelei isn't too great since her team is almost all Water-types. Bruno is also a mixed bag, as three of his five Pokes have Rock-type moves. Agatha is like Sabrina 2.0, so neutral. Against Lance Charizard finds it hard to do any solid damage to his Pokes, since they all resist Fire.

4/10

Ahh... Your points are all good, but as with Treecko, I'm going to have to ask you for something a bit more than that to justify that 4. Yes, Charmander has a lot of bad matchups. But its stats are too good to put it at below average, especially considering it's around all game.

[charlie_]

It has good speed, but it's other stats are kind of smelly. Grovyle enters a brief period of amazing when it gets Leaf Blade, but once everyone else gets moves like Surf around the same time, it's nothing special.

7/10

[Ema Skye]

Better now?

[Ema Skye]

Hmm...on one hand this rating is justified...but on the other hand, it's way too low...

EDIT: Lucina, please revise your rating, as the criteria here is awful. And don't compare it to other Pokemon.

Treecko's talents compared to other Pokemon is what gets it a spot on my team. If it's terrible compared to my other options, I'm not giving it a teamslot (and therefore it's not getting any EXP). If it's the best that I have, then it is getting the teamslot and the EXP that comes with it. I'm not seeing how my criteria is awful if I justified my rating, so can you explain what the problem is

Mudkip vs Torchic? How is this even a contest? Mudkip stomps Roxanne, who Torchic can't even handle until it evolves into Combusken. Marshtomp's Mud Shot actually has higher power than Combusken's Peck against Brawly, so Combusken's slightly higher Attack doesn't matter. Marshtomp walls Wattson, has both Mud Shot and Water Gun for SE STAB against Flannery, admittedly loses to Combusken at Norman, can bust out Ice Beam for Winona, has SE Surf and Ice Beam vs Blaziken getting OHKOd against Psychic at Tate+Liza, wins Juan/Wallace, loses at Sydney, wins at Phoebe, wins at Glacia, wins at Drake, and wins at Wallace but loses at Steven. Fighting STAB is actually not that good at all ingame Hoenn.

We'll talk about those two on their respective days.

Edited June 15, 2012 by Lucina

[The_Purple_Knight]

7/10 Excellent stats , good movepool, and flying utility . However, he isn't very useful in gym fights outside of Erika , and the only elite four member he's really helpful against is Bruno. It's to bad he isn't dragon /fire because then he'd be completely overpowered .

Edited June 15, 2012 by The_Purple_Knight

[NinjaMonkey]

7.5, +.5 bias for being of the ONLY fire starters that don't eventually become Fire/Fighting

Typhlosion is a mono-fire type, though...

[ZemZem]

Treecko's lackluster midgame and a not-so-great moveset doesn't mean it deserves a 4/10, especially after the 7th gym, where the vast majority of the Pokemon you fight before Victory Road are Water types.

[BBM]

By that logic, we drop Combusken after like Norman, because Combusken fares barely better than Grovyle against Winona, gets raped by Tate+Liza, and gets raped by Juan/Wallace. He's good against Sydney, okay against Phoebe, and good against Steven, but doesn't have good matchups against the rest of them. Of course, the E4 doesn't even matter because Combusken/Blaziken is not really worth a spot against anyone other than random mooks for 3 straight Gym Leaders after Norman, and so should get no EXP and is underleveled.

Hell, if this is Emerald, Rayquaza can solo the game after you beat Juan and all other pokemon become unnecessary.

[ZemZem]

By that logic, we drop Combusken after like Norman, because Combusken fares barely better than Grovyle against Winona, gets raped by Tate+Liza, and gets raped by Juan/Wallace. He's good against Sydney, okay against Phoebe, and good against Steven, but doesn't have good matchups against the rest of them. Of course, the E4 doesn't even matter because Combusken/Blaziken is not really worth a spot against anyone other than random mooks for 3 straight Gym Leaders after Norman, and so should get no EXP and is underleveled.

Hell, if this is Emerald, Rayquaza can solo the game after you beat Juan and all other pokemon become unnecessary.

This. So Lucina, please revise your vote, if you haven't already.

[BBM]

Charmander gets a 7.8/10.