ace attorney Best and Worst Ace Attorney Case ever made

[Thane]

I could never rank this game higher than Apollo Justice because of the sheer amount of borrowed/repeated ideas, wasted potential and nonsensical development. Not to mention the villains are probably the worst in any Ace Attorney game ever, and the support cast is not exactly cause to celebrate. Even the fantastic 6-2 had dull characters in it.

In my opinion, it's just a bit better than Dual Destinies because of that single, awesome case, but the rest suffers incredibly from Yamazaki's writing. People liked Dual Destinies a lot when it first came out as well, but after a while people started to forget about it or realize its flaws, and I'm sure this is what'll happen to this game - it's harder to remember cases when they're either completely unremarkable or filled to the brim with so much going on that you can't keep track of it all.

Also, that very last line means Yamazaki knew exactly what he could've written about, but he chose to ignore it. It's an actual metaphorical spit in the face.

Edited September 21, 2016 by Thane

[Etrurian emperor]

Athena shouldn't have just been removed, she should have never been introduced in the first place. Phoenix and Apollo with Trucy and/or Pearl being on the side was enough for a cast of heroes. We didn't really need ANOTHER character to be introduced again. Especially when Phoenix got 3 games staring him, and Apollo had 1 (and even in that, we got to see the fate of Phoenix as well as play as him), and didn't even get all of his details ironed out. Do we really *need* 3 lawyers? Unless they were planning on having more cases, this is kind of silly. I mean, the most we ever had was 3 in a game beforehand (Edgeworth, Mia, and Phoenix), but here's the difference: when you played as the other characters, the OTHER characters weren't actually just standing around saying "you can do it!" Essentially. There's too many. Athena could have been in the game as Phoenix's apprentice, but there was no reason for her to be much more then that in DD.

As for Athena, the problem with Athena is that she's a very poorly introduced character. The game hypes her up as some sort of ace when she's no better (read as actually worse) than Phoenix and Apollo (a character that is by no means a genius or anything of the sort). Jams her backstory to be tied to Blackquill, whose past is somehow tied to a subplot that's so poorly outlined that when the resolution happens you can't help but wonder what the hell the game is talking about. And the game pretty much ties every event in the game back to her and Blackquill -- which makes for a rather poor storyline. Like even Phoenix wasn't *that* personally involved in the cases from before.

Whether you like Athena or not, you have to admit that things are a mess around her. I mean, they kind of are with Apollo now, but that's what happens when a writer decides to be "surprising" and have "twists and turns" over logical progression.

I don't really agree with most points. I didn't think three layers was to much, instead I thought the three had a nice dynamic going on with each other. Its worth remembering that Phoenix tale is already over. He had his growth and he's proven himself so there's a limit to what you can do with him, the creator of the series recognized that and wanted to focus on other characters. The only reason Phoenix remains a big focus is because people like him. They could give more focus on Apollo and they did....but people didn't like Apollo before DD. Introducing a new rookie, keeping Phoenix and add some depth to Apollo therefore strikes me as pretty logical. Just focusing on Phoenix brings the risk of missing a character arc, just pre DD Apollo risks a bit of a backlash.

I wonder if your complaint about Athena's introduction wasn't actually the very point they were going for. Athena's a prodigy on paper but just isn't ready for the courtroom yet thanks to her past and a lack of experience. Though I do grant you that Athena comes off as pretty bad at times. The series isn't very consistent on how skilled she is. In case 3 she handles herself pretty well against Blackquill, one of the more top tier prosecutors and

Means

a decently competent murder. In the prologue that takes place after case 3 she gets a freakout against a pretty low tier murderer and a Payne of all people. If she could pull of a win on Blackquill than Phoenix shouldn't have need to bail her out against a Payne.

Spirit of justice takes it even further and makes her less skilled than she was in the previous game, to the extend that Blackquill has to downright babysit her.

I find Athena's backstory pretty plausible for the most part. Her being raised in the space center next door is hardly a stretch, she already got a bit of a tech theme going on. From one of the first moments its implied she and Blackquill know each other and that Athena has a goal that she became a lawyer for. Blackquill being a convict makes it very easy to guess what Athena's goal would be. You could argue that

A a super spy trying to sabotage the space station with the death of Athena's mom and Blackquill's conviction being the fallout

is a bit to much, but it was already implied Athena's past was fairly traumatic so I'd say fair enough. DD's story does elude to certain things about Athena's past and her origins are in the realm of clear possibilities.

Athena's backstory is a lot more plausible than Apollo

Suddenly being revealed to be the son of a foerign lawyer turned rebel leader despite him already having an implied parentage.

I have a hard time figuring out where such a backstory would fit in with his introduction in Apollo justice or his flashbacks about his past in DD.

Edited September 21, 2016 by Etrurian emperor

[Jave]

As someone who followed both DD and SoJ in various discussions among the Internet, I'm pretty positive SoJ has gotten better reception in general than DD, which was a pretty hated game right off the bat. Meanwhile the consensus on SoJ seems to be that is one of the series' best games, which is something DD pretty much never got.

[TheEnd]

[spoiler=The final insult]They actually have the nerve, the AUDACITY, to tease Thalassa coming to reveal Apollo and Trucy's relationship after two years of silence which have made both her and Wright look like douchebags AFTER DEDICATING AN ENTIRE GAME TO APOLLO'S BACKSTORY!

[spoiler=Confirmed canon]

[solrocknroll]

[spoiler=major ending spoiler]Except isn't it confirmed that Thalassa didn't wait for two years because she's lazy, she waited two years because she took the time to heal. At the end of Apollo Justice, her vision was coming back since she could use the MASON System.

This was absolutely done on purpose, it's not like the writers were just lazy.

[MCProductions]

I don't really agree with most points. I didn't think three layers was to much, instead I thought the three had a nice dynamic going on with each other. Its worth remembering that Phoenix tale is already over. He had his growth and he's proven himself so there's a limit to what you can do with him, the creator of the series recognized that and wanted to focus on other characters. The only reason Phoenix remains a big focus is because people like him. They could give more focus on Apollo and they did....but people didn't like Apollo before DD. Introducing a new rookie, keeping Phoenix and add some depth to Apollo therefore strikes me as pretty logical. Just focusing on Phoenix brings the risk of missing a character arc, just pre DD Apollo risks a bit of a backlash.

I wonder if your complaint about Athena's introduction wasn't actually the very point they were going for. Athena's a prodigy on paper but just isn't ready for the courtroom yet thanks to her past and a lack of experience. Though I do grant you that Athena comes off as pretty bad at times. The series isn't very consistent on how skilled she is. In case 3 she handles herself pretty well against Blackquill, one of the more top tier prosecutors and

Means

a decently competent murder. In the prologue that takes place after case 3 she gets a freakout against a pretty low tier murderer and a Payne of all people. If she could pull of a win on Blackquill than Phoenix shouldn't have need to bail her out against a Payne.

Spirit of justice takes it even further and makes her less skilled than she was in the previous game, to the extend that Blackquill has to downright babysit her.

I find Athena's backstory pretty plausible for the most part. Her being raised in the space center next door is hardly a stretch, she already got a bit of a tech theme going on. From one of the first moments its implied she and Blackquill know each other and that Athena has a goal that she became a lawyer for. Blackquill being a convict makes it very easy to guess what Athena's goal would be. You could argue that

A a super spy trying to sabotage the space station with the death of Athena's mom and Blackquill's conviction being the fallout

is a bit to much, but it was already implied Athena's past was fairly traumatic so I'd say fair enough. DD's story does elude to certain things about Athena's past and her origins are in the realm of clear possibilities.

Athena's backstory is a lot more plausible than Apollo

Suddenly being revealed to be the son of a foerign lawyer turned rebel leader despite him already having an implied parentage.

I have a hard time figuring out where such a backstory would fit in with his introduction in Apollo justice or his flashbacks about his past in DD.

Can agree with this, it took the entirety of 6-5 for me to give a shit about continuing Apollo's arc, so introducing Athena felt justified for me. 6 in general I'm not much of a fan of because the Kingdom of Khurain both has no reason to exist and are the most unwholesome beings I've ever fucking seen in a videogame. How the hell did they make me miss Isle Delfino's judicial system for crying out loud? That said, 6-5 is still a favorite of mine despite me having quite a few issues with it, since it both made me like Apollo and despite Gar'an bringing out the Darkstalker gear, I still actually really like Rayfa. It's just a damn shame I can't consider this case above the finals of AA1-3 or AAi1 because of several issues I have with Khurain itself.

Also, Garan x Garon OTP guise

Edited September 21, 2016 by MCProductions

[Thane]

Athena's backstory is a lot more plausible than Apollo

Not that I like Apollo's new backstory in the slightest, but you're telling me the story of a traumatized, shut-in 11-year-old who hardly even attended school became the super outgoing, pretty, alleged genius with two degrees and magical powers working for Phoenix in just seven years sounds more plausible?

They botched Athena's introduction hard when she didn't even need to exist in the first place. This series has a surplus of pretty, plucky teenage girls already, and given that Trucy hardly gets any character development, it boggles my mind that they couldn't write the game more with her in mind. Introducing another main character out of the blue upsets a lot of things and demands more attention is split between more characters, which also limits the amount of time in the spotlight support characters can have.

Let's also not forget that Athena's personal story is essentially over, since the entire reason she became a lawyer was to free Simon, and he's out now (oh, and can someone explain to me why she didn't tell anyone this in Dual Destinies? She left everything to the day before he was supposed to be executed).

As someone who followed both DD and SoJ in various discussions among the Internet, I'm pretty positive SoJ has gotten better reception in general than DD, which was a pretty hated game right off the bat. Meanwhile the consensus on SoJ seems to be that is one of the series' best games, which is something DD pretty much never got.

We must visit very different sites, then, because I remember people singing Dual Destinies' praises when it first came out, with many people ranking it as the second best game in the franchise after Trials and Tribulations, then the craze died down, and I expect the same thing to happen to Spirit of Justice, since it repeats many of the same problems found in DD.

[spoiler=Confirmed canon]

Reminds me of the Zak Gramayre is a jerk comics, haha.

[spoiler=End of 6-5]No but seriously, this makes Phoenix and Thalassa come across as major dickbags. Can you imagine Phoenix calling Apollo once he's settled in going "oh yeah by the way, Trucy's your sister. Figured you should know now that you've left the country. See ya!"

Edited September 21, 2016 by Thane

[Jave]

We must visit very different sites, then, because I remember people singing Dual Destinies' praises when it first came out, with many people ranking it as the second best game in the franchise after Trials and Tribulations, then the craze died down, and I expect the same thing to happen to Spirit of Justice, since it repeats many of the same problems found in DD

Maybe we do? I don't know to be honest.

For reference I'm looking at the NeoGAF talkbacks for both games and AA5 definitely didn't seem to have back then the wide praise AA6 is getting right now. 5-2 is almost globally disliked, and the ending of 5-5 with the awful mastermind reveal was also met with heavy backlash. 5-3 was probably the most loved case back then, mostly because how wacky and crazy it is.

Also, drawing comparisons between people who commented on both threads, it doesn't look that opinions on AA5 have changed too much. A lot of people seem to still like it despite its flaws. It surprises me that so many people liked and still like 5-5, for example.

[RealShouzouKaga]

Best: 5-5

Worst: 2-4

[blah the Prussian]

Best: 5-5

Worst: 2-4

...well, let's hope Thane doesn't get his by gamma rays anytime soon.

[Thane]

Maybe we do? I don't know to be honest.

For reference I'm looking at the NeoGAF talkbacks for both games and AA5 definitely didn't seem to have back then the wide praise AA6 is getting right now. 5-2 is almost globally disliked, and the ending of 5-5 with the awful mastermind reveal was also met with heavy backlash. 5-3 was probably the most loved case back then, mostly because how wacky and crazy it is.

Also, drawing comparisons between people who commented on both threads, it doesn't look that opinions on AA5 have changed too much. A lot of people seem to still like it despite its flaws. It surprises me that so many people liked and still like 5-5, for example.

We do. While 5-2 was always disliked, a lot of people I talked to adored 5-5 and the plot twist, although it also seemed as if that changed over time. Still, people adored Dual Destinies, just like people like Spirit of Justice now. I'm not saying the same shift will happen or that my opinions are somehow superior, but the way I see it the two games pretty much messed up in similar ways, and there's just so much bullshit in SoJ that I can't wrap my head around how people could consider it one of the better installments. Most of the new characters are also essentially impossible to like and are only there to move the plot forward, while some of the returning members are just not up to par, the biggest offender being Phoenix, who probably has his least likeable appearance in the series yet - seriously, what does this guy even do or say in this game, and how come he's respected and feared in the courtroom?

Best: 5-5

Worst: 2-4

M...My perfect blood pressure...

[Etrurian emperor]

Not that I like Apollo's new backstory in the slightest, but you're telling me the story of a traumatized, shut-in 11-year-old who hardly even attended school became the super outgoing, pretty, alleged genius with two degrees and magical powers working for Phoenix in just seven years sounds more plausible?

Yup. Technology and research would have been all around Athena and her psychology gimmick is in an area her upbringing would leave her pretty familiar with. Out of the three lawyers she's the most likely to have been good at school. Its also said she got her grades in Europe of which was already established in the first trilogy that you could get your law degree sooner then in Japanofornia.

Growing up in the local space station isn't THAT weird and people being murdered and falsely convicted seems to be just another Tuesday in the Ace Attorney world. As for the shift in personality. A lot can happen in 7 years. Athena had the drive to pull through and the things that caused her to be a shut in seemed to have lessened.

Its far more logical then

''Hey, I got this lawyer dad in a foreign country and he's the leader of the local rebellion!''

Athena was new so her story didn't clash with anything already known about her. At least not to me. But Apollo genuinely has to move through more than a few hoops to convince me that a normal American young man who's past was already explored had an origin like that.

They botched Athena's introduction hard when she didn't even need to exist in the first place. This series has a surplus of pretty, plucky teenage girls already, and given that Trucy hardly gets any character development, it boggles my mind that they couldn't write the game more with her in mind. Introducing another main character out of the blue upsets a lot of things and demands more attention is split between more characters, which also limits the amount of time in the spotlight support characters can have.

Like I said, it was probably a way to focus on someone who's story wasn't already over like Phoenix and who wasn't disliked as Apollo was at the time. They could have used Trucy, Maya or Pearls but none of them show any ambition to be a lawyer. You could argue it would be out of character for any except maybe, just maybe Pearls to want to become a lawyer.

Let's also not forget that Athena's personal story is essentially over, since the entire reason she became a lawyer was to free Simon, and he's out now (oh, and can someone explain to me why she didn't tell anyone this in Dual Destinies? She left everything to the day before he was supposed to be executed).

That's probably why Athena isn't a very big focus in Spirit of justice. She gets a case but its a filler one with no bearing on the plot. It strikes me that the case was also made much more for Blackquill fans than to hers.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Simon getting executed at that time seemed to have been a surprise to Athena. Fullbright had to fill her in on it right?

[Thane]

Yup. Technology and research would have been all around Athena and her psychology gimmick is in an area her upbringing would leave her pretty familiar with. Out of the three lawyers she's the most likely to have been good at school. Its also said she got her grades in Europe of which was already established in the first trilogy that you could get your law degree sooner then in Japanofornia.

Growing up in the local space station isn't THAT weird and people being murdered and falsely convicted seems to be just another Tuesday in the Ace Attorney world. As for the shift in personality. A lot can happen in 7 years. Athena had the drive to pull through and the things that caused her to be a shut in seemed to have lessened.

Its far more logical then

''Hey, I got this lawyer dad in a foreign country and he's the leader of the local rebellion!''

You're confusing "logical" with "likely". What you wrote in the spoilers is highly unlikely, but it does make somewhat cohesive sense. I'm not saying I like it one bit, but you cannot possibly compare it to Athena's patchwork of a past.

Let's go over this again: Athena was a traumatized shut-in 11-year-old who hardly ever went to school, at least in part because of her superpowers crippling her to some extent. After her mother's murder, she somehow found her way to Europe where she not only got over her super hearing and what she had experienced but also got sufficient grades to get into college far, far ahead of the curve and then move back to America where she joined the Wright Anything Agency in just seven years.

Who did she live with? Why did she go to Europe? How long did it take for her to get over all of this? How did she do so well in school when she had hardly attended before? You need far more than just "drive" to answer all of these questions.

Athena's past and entire character make little sense. Apollo's past, while unlikely, does not fall apart when you bring in a tiny shred of logic.

Athena was new so her story didn't clash with anything already known about her. At least not to me. But Apollo genuinely has to move through more than a few hoops to convince me that a normal American young man who's past was already explored had an origin like that.

Her story clashed with absolutely everyone and consumed all of Dual Destinies, which is the entire problem - Simon's character essentially disappears into Athena's towards the end, like along with all of the subplots. Just because she was completely new doesn't mean she was introduced to the series well.

Apollo's past was never explored. We know he was the son of Thalassa, had a father who supposedly died in a stage accident and had a friend in high school and that was about it.

Like I said, it was probably a way to focus on someone who's story wasn't already over like Phoenix and who wasn't disliked as Apollo was at the time. They could have used Trucy, Maya or Pearls but none of them show any ambition to be a lawyer. You could argue it would be out of character for any except maybe, just maybe Pearls to want to become a lawyer.

Since we're talking about Ace Attorney, I'm going to ask for proof that says Apollo was disliked. Also, even if he were, that doesn't change the fact that he had loose plot threads to deal with.

Besides, popularity is a very fickle thing; look at the popularity polls after Dual Destinies was released: Apollo was ranked #1 - which is most definitely why Spirit of Justice is all about him - while Athena didn't even reach top #10. Why do you think that is, by the way? Because Athena contributed nothing new to the game and stole the spotlight from characters who needed more development, among them Trucy and Apollo, first and foremost.

That's probably why Athena isn't a very big focus in Spirit of justice. She gets a case but its a filler one with no bearing on the plot. It strikes me that the case was also made much more for Blackquill fans than to hers.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Simon getting executed at that time seemed to have been a surprise to Athena. Fullbright had to fill her in on it right?

And boy was Simon awesome. He made me laugh several times, and I love how they made him even more of a weeaboo than he was in Dual Destinies. I swear the writers browse forums and check fan reactions. Him complaining about how Athena says "rice wine" was marvelous. Here's the thing though: Athena and Simon NEEDED time together because they had absolutely none that would make us care for their relationship in Dual Destinies. At all. I'm baffled Yamazaki made the same mistake with Sadhmadhi and Apollo, combining a Edgeworth and Simon's characters and somehow making him completely unlikeable, forgettable and overall meaningless to the plot.

Anyway, Athena most likely just got that filler case because she simply wasn't a very popular character after Dual Destinies, and while I've got no proof of this, I think 6-4 was conceived fairly late into development since people hated how short 5-4 was and how it directly tied in with 5-5 - I'm certain they were going for a similar structure, which is why 6-5 is split up into two parts, the first of which even the most ardent defender of Yamazaki will have to admit is very shoddily written.

Even if she didn't know about the exact date, didn't she hurry to become a lawyer just to rescue him? Why doesn't she mention that? Why doesn't she hurry? Does she want him to stay in prison longer, or what? Doesn't she think her friends and colleagues can help? We don't know what she's thinking because the game tries so hard to invoke a sense of urgency while ignoring simple logic, which is typical Yamazaki writing, and very ironic considering the franchise we're talking about.

Edited September 21, 2016 by Thane

[blah the Prussian]

I will say this about Athena: her Pursuit theme is amazing. Then again, I'm tone deaf, so take it with a grain of salt, I suppose.

[Etrurian emperor]

Who did she live with? Why did she go to Europe? How long did it take for her to get over all of this? How did she do so well in school when she had hardly attended before? You need far more than just "drive" to answer all of these questions.

Well, the area she's so big in is supposed to be psychology, which her mother was an expert on and she grew up all around technology. Social interaction may have been a thing but Athene's pretty well equipped for theoretical exams. You can get a law degree much sooner in Europe apparently which she would want to do if she wanted to save Blackquill soon. Who she lived with seems hardly important. Who did Edgeworth stay with when he was working his life out abroad? Especially that question may just point to you not being entirely willing to adhere to the willing suspension of disbelief in a series where you cross examine parrots and walky talkies.

Since we're talking about Ace Attorney, I'm going to ask for proof that says Apollo was disliked.

For the moment you'll have to make due with that so many people were saying it before DD and after it saying how they now surprisingly liked Apollo. Perhaps its one of those things that people repeat so often that they don't bother digging into the issue but that everyone was saying it does say something. As I experienced Apollo was a victim the Raiden syndrome.

Apollo's past was never explored. We know he was the son of Thalassa, had a father who supposedly died in a stage accident and had a friend in high school and that was about it.

Sure, there's room in Apollo's past for

having lived in an Asian country for a while

just like there's room for the Judge theoretically having grown up in France. That doesn't mean it gells well together. When introduced Apollo was an all American boy and when the next game focused on his personal life more there was nothing to suggest

growing up with a lawyer dad in a country that would soon turn very hostile to lawyers.

You'd think Apollo would at least think about it when becoming a lawyer. I find it hard to believe this isn't a very recent idea the writers had for Apollo.

Besides, popularity is a very fickle thing; look at the popularity polls after Dual Destinies was released: Apollo was ranked #1 - which is most definitely why Spirit of Justice is all about him - while Athena didn't even reach top #10. Why do you think that is, by the way? Because Athena contributed nothing new to the game and stole the spotlight from characters who needed more development, among them Trucy and Apollo, first and foremost.

I'll briefly point out that I don't actually like Athena over the other lawyers. The other two probably rank above her so I don't really care where she ranked. I mostly view her as Simon's morality pet anyway. The point I was making is that there is a logic behind not focusing on either Phoenix or Apollo, just as there is a logic to focus on Apollo more now.

I wouldn't call it fickle. The problem people seemed to have with Apollo was that he was the main character instead of Phoenix, yet constantly in his hobo shadow. In DD Phoenix was (if just in name only) the main character and yet Apollo got more developed as well. The problems people had with Apollo were more or less addressed. I see it as Apollo being given a second chance and winning the more critical fans over.

I think it was very notable that Trucy was shoved for the background as to not get in the way of fellow genki girl Athena. You could hold that against her, sure.

And boy was Simon awesome.

That just comes with the territory of being Simon. I especially thought he brought out something in his fellow prosecutor. I like Sadhmani well enough but he's quite tame compared to prosecutors like a Hispanic cyborg coffee adict or a possibly British weabo convict with a bird fetish. I heard people said seeing Simon just makes it more apparent how bland Sadhmani is but I think they are nice foils. The calm, moralist monk dressed in white and the more expressive convict dressed in black.

Edited September 21, 2016 by Etrurian emperor

[Thane]

Well, the area she's so big in is supposed to be psychology, which her mother was an expert on and she grew up all around technology. Social interaction may have been a thing but Athene's pretty well equipped for theoretical exams. You can get a law degree much sooner in Europe apparently which she would want to do if she wanted to save Blackquill soon. Who she lived with seems hardly important. Who did Edgeworth stay with when he was working his life out abroad? Especially that question may just point to you not being entirely willing to adhere to the willing suspension of disbelief in a series where you cross examine parrots and walky talkies.

I'm really not following your logic here. Her mother - whom she hardly spent any time with according to herself - being an expert on psychology magically rubs off on her?

A traumatized shut-in who didn't attend school is most likely not the best candidate for passing school at a normal pace, let alone acing legal exams and becoming a prodigy.

Who she lives with is important because, like I keep mentioning, she was an orphaned, traumatized 11-year-old girl who hardly left her room and didn't attend school. What people took her in, and what miracle workers are they for helping her through all of that in no time at all?

Also, I'd like to cite my favorite quote: "you can make your audience believe the impossible but not the improbable" - Athena's past falls into the latter category, and it falls apart if you so much as squint.

For the moment you'll have to make due with that so many people were saying it before DD and after it saying how they now surprisingly liked Apollo. Perhaps its one of those things that people repeat so often that they don't bother digging into the issue but that everyone was saying it does say something. As I experienced Apollo was a victim the Raiden syndrome.

So in order words it's your guess?

Sure, there's room in Apollo's past for

having lived in an Asian country for a while

just like there's room for the Judge theoretically having grown up in France. That doesn't mean it gells well together. When introduced Apollo was an all American boy and when the next game focused on his personal life more there was nothing to suggest

growing up with a lawyer dad in a country that would soon turn very hostile to lawyers.

You'd think Apollo would at least think about it when becoming a lawyer. I find it hard to believe this isn't a very recent idea the writers had for Apollo.

I'm very well aware of the problems with Apollo's past, but the fact of the matter is that the explanation "he didn't want to talk about it" can pretty much excuse why it wasn't brought up before, as much as I'm loath to admit it. Athena's past, however, is just a series of utterly unbelievable events that are swept under the rug. You cannot possibly compare the two.

I'll briefly point out that I don't actually like Athena over the other lawyers. The other two probably rank above her so I don't really care where she ranked. I mostly view her as Simon's morality pet anyway. The point I was making is that there is a logic behind not focusing on either Phoenix or Apollo, just as there is a logic to focus on Apollo more now.

I wholeheartedly disagree. The worst part is that if she were around Apollo's age at least, it would've at least made a little bit more sense, but Ace Attorney can never have too many teenage girls, apparently.

I wouldn't call it fickle. The problem people seemed to have with Apollo was that he was the main character instead of Phoenix, yet constantly in his hobo shadow. In DD Phoenix was (if just in name only) the main character and yet Apollo got more developed as well. The problems people had with Apollo were more or less addressed. I see it as Apollo being given a second chance and winning the more critical fans over.

I think it was very notable that Trucy was shoved for the background as to not get in the way of fellow genki girl Athena. You could hold that against her, sure.

I don't understand how Apollo's role in Dual Destinies is a point in his favor - he's out of Phoenix' shadow, sure, but his role in 5-5 is utter bullshit, and it's what the game was teasing constantly. This was something else that Athena's involvement ruined, since getting her acquittal solves every plot point in Dual Destinies barring the Phantom's identity, which they don't seem too keen on following up anyway.

That just comes with the territory of being Simon. I especially thought he brought out something in his fellow prosecutor. I like Sadhmani well enough but he's quite tame compared to prosecutors like a Hispanic cyborg coffee adict or a possibly British weabo convict with a bird fetish. I heard people said seeing Simon just makes it more apparent how bland Sadhmani is but I think they are nice foils. The calm, moralist monk dressed in white and the more expressive convict dressed in black.

Er, Sadhmadhi isn't tame, he literally tells people to go to hell. He then repeats Edgeworth and Blackquill's story arcs as well as his lines constantly and his character development is non-existent and don't really do anything in the grand scheme of the plot. He's a failure of a character.

Simon actually had a personality and a past, overdramatic though they may be, but by Yamazaki standards this guy is practically Shakespeare quality.

[Etrurian emperor]

So in order words it's your guess?

Not really. It would be my guess if no one ever said a word about the guy and if I then said people didn't like him upon his debut. Very little people talk about uh...Ron delite perhaps. If I said Ron he was universally hated it would probably be a guess. People did talk about Apollo and how he wasn't Phoenix.

Er, Sadhmadhi isn't tame

Good thing I didn't say he was tame then.

I like Sadhmani well enough but he's quite tame compared to

Sadhmani has his gimmick but its not as immediately over the top as people like Godot or Blackquill.

Edited September 21, 2016 by Etrurian emperor

[Ace Pelleas]

Just passing to do my Ace Attorney Tier List,even though I'm the only person here that hasn't plaed Dual Destinies and Spirit of Justice

S tier

2-4 > AAI2-3 > 3-4

A+ tier

4-1 > 3-2 > 4-4 > 1-4 > AAI2-5 > 3-5

A- tier

1-5 > 4-2 >AAI-5 > AAI-2

B+ tier

AAI2-4 > 4-3

B- tier

3-1 > 1-2 > 3-3 > 1-3

C tier

1-1 > AAI-1 > AAI2-1

D tier

2-2 > AAI2-2

Why do they even exist tier

2-3 > 2-1 >>>>>>>> AAI-4 = AAI-3

Edited September 22, 2016 by Ace Pelleas

[Bluedoom]

I do agree that Athena's introduction ruined a lot of the series' plot. There was so much that could be done with Trucy/Apollo, and Hobonix, but DD just went the wrong route IMO. 5-5 is literally a repeat of RftA.

Didn't really like the ending of SoJ but I still think this is one of the better entries in the series. (even if Khurain is a BS kingdom, you gotta admit, its better than the premise of 4-3, the premise of Wright's story throughout AA4, DD's terrible "Dark Age of Law" and Athena, and JFA's everything-but-(2-4).)

Idk, I don't think Sadhmadhi is special, but I'd have him as a prosecutor over Mr.Coffee Addict and Ms.Dominatrix. Those two were the most annoying prosecutors ever, IMO.

[Bluedoom]

Xander? Oh god, Xander is practically the Godwin's law of writing at this point. No, she would be like Xander if the audience was supposed to think that she was the hero and that defense attorneys are evil, or whatever. You can say what you want about how her flaws make her annoying, to they are recognized as that.

And yeah, the thought of pinning the crime on someone completely innocent to protect your guilty wife is too much. He should have confessed to the crime himself; he was going to die anyway. Actually, yeah, the more that I think of it the more framing Maya makes NO SENSE for what he could have done in his situation. After he finds out what happens, he confesses. The divination seance would t show the face of the killer, so he can just say it was him. Then, he gets executed, which would have happened anyway, and there would be no need for anyone innocent to get hurt. I actually agree with you now; this case unfortunately sucks, and that's because the killer's motivations make no damn sense.

That actually wouldn't work, because the seance would've shown Beh'leeb as the killer, since Tah'rust wasn't present at the scene of the crime when the death occurred. Unless the victim didn't see his killer at the time of his death, but then we wouldn't know the route that the kingdom would take: who would they pin the crime on? The priest that everyone loves, or the wife that no one cares about?

Edited September 22, 2016 by Magnificence Incarnate

[Augestein]

I don't really agree with most points. I didn't think three layers was to much, instead I thought the three had a nice dynamic going on with each other. Its worth remembering that Phoenix tale is already over. He had his growth and he's proven himself so there's a limit to what you can do with him, the creator of the series recognized that and wanted to focus on other characters. The only reason Phoenix remains a big focus is because people like him. They could give more focus on Apollo and they did....but people didn't like Apollo before DD. Introducing a new rookie, keeping Phoenix and add some depth to Apollo therefore strikes me as pretty logical. Just focusing on Phoenix brings the risk of missing a character arc, just pre DD Apollo risks a bit of a backlash.

Three characters isn't necessarily a bad thing when it can work for characters. Lots of series have 3 characters as the main focus, but in the AA setting it doesn't work as well because it's always one lawyer on the defense bench with their assistant/mentor at their side. The witness, for all intents and purposes IS the third main character for each case. With 3 main characters as the lawyers, this essentially means that there's a shift in the focus. Instead we have to have one lawyer that's just not able to be there, another lawyer being the assistant (when really, they shouldn't be, surely there's more than one case happening). And that's the problem with the newer AA games: people are just there. To give an example, do we REALLY need Kay in AAI when we have Gumshoe to be a consistent partner for Edgeworth? I mean, this was honestly their chance to actual redeem Gumshoe a bit and make him seem less incompetent-- like Wright days were bad days for Gumshoe.

Like there needs to be a reminder to the player that they exist, but they don't have enough presence to even matter. Wright's whole identity may have been "completed" in the original trilogy, but that doesn't necessarily mean that his role as a character is over. He could have been a form of torch passing to Apollo for later games with Wright getting a less significant role, and so on. Had Apollo left after AJ, I'd have been fine with Athena, but here? We really don't need two incomplete characters. Especially when Athena's backstory pretty much has nothing to do with Apollo. Meaning that screen time is going to be split up. For no real reason at that. Whether people didn't like Apollo or not doesn't really matter, as he doesn't have to be the protagonist forever, in the same way that Wright doesn't need to be for AA. Hell, depending on how you take those opening words of Wright, DDs could have plausibly been the last game for him as a lead character. DD and AJ would have been perfect times to back out with Wright. They didn't.

I wonder if your complaint about Athena's introduction wasn't actually the very point they were going for. Athena's a prodigy on paper but just isn't ready for the courtroom yet thanks to her past and a lack of experience. Though I do grant you that Athena comes off as pretty bad at times. The series isn't very consistent on how skilled she is. In case 3 she handles herself pretty well against Blackquill, one of the more top tier prosecutors and

Then they need to not introduce her with phrases like "her power will be our greatest weapon," and then she doesn't do anything particularly impressive. She handles herself fine in Case 3, but it's like Apollo has the whole thing figured out while she's still kinda reaching that point-- which I'll grant that he's more senior than she is, but then they shouldn't say she's a prodigy if you're going to have writing like that.

And the problem with Athena's backstory is very much so what Thane mentioned: why didn't she mention this? And more specifically, how does

everyone not know who Athena Cykes is considering what her traumatic past should mean in connection with the Phantom? That's doesn't seem like something that you can say "oh these are top secret files!" Because she is related to the case.

Her backstory doesn't feel very well thought out, and even worse, there isn't much for her character to go because everything was thrown out on the table from the start.

Edited September 22, 2016 by Augestein

[blah the Prussian]

That actually wouldn't work, because the seance would've shown Beh'leeb as the killer, since Tah'rust wasn't present at the scene of the crime when the death occurred. Unless the victim didn't see his killer at the time of his death, but then we wouldn't know the route that the kingdom would take: who would they pin the crime on? The priest that everyone loves, or the wife that no one cares about?

Look, if he confesses to everything, what can they do? Rayfa has the seance, Tahrust says "it was me, I did it", end of story.

[Water Mage]

Here's an interview with Yamazaki:

http://www.siliconera.com/2016/09/23/phoenix-almost-mafia-underworld-lawyer-acessos -attorney-spirit-justice/

Gotta admit, it would be interesting to have all of the clients be criminals. Kinda like how all of AA4's clients were guilty of some crime.

Edited September 23, 2016 by Water Mage

[Sasori]

Here's an interview with Yamazaki:

http://www.siliconera.com/2016/09/23/phoenix-almost-mafia-underworld-lawyer-acessos -attorney-spirit-justice/

Gotta admit, it would be interesting to have all of the clients be criminals. Kinda like how all of AA4's clients were guilty of some crime.

That would be a very interesting idea, but I have a hard time imagining Phoenix willingly taking part in a illegal underground court for the Maffia.

Edited September 23, 2016 by Sasori

[blah the Prussian]

Okay, I want to say this: so Dhurke, infamous rebel leader of the Defiant Dragons, managed to get to the US. How? Are the TSA really this incompetant? "Okay, sure, Mr. Infamous Terrorist, you can get on the plane, right next to Ho Chi Minh, Che Guevara, and Osama Bin Laden, all of whom are also definitely model citizens who met with great scrutiny on the plane!" Also, are they really being so obvious about the main villain? I guess Dahlia Hawthorne wasn't much of a surprise, but she wasn't the killer in that case, either. Now, if Dhurke pulled a Matt Engarde and was actually evil and was manipulating things to make the Monarchy look bad, that would be good. Ah well, that's probably just the Monarchist in me talking. Then again, they're pretty clearly setting it up so that Rayfa leads Khu'rain after Ga'ran is inevitably outed as evil (not saying this is going to happen, just a prediction, I don't actually know this, this is not a spoiler) so at least Khu'rain isn't a Republic. Also, Rayfa, you saying your country has never been invaded might be the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Being on the western edge of East Asia would put the country in the crosshairs of so many Great powers it's mind boggling. I mean, the Chinese, Mongols, Russians, British, Japanese, Timurids, and Muslims would all probably be gunning for you at some point. Bullshit.