Disconnects between plot and gameplay

[saisymbolic]

Oh, they only talk about honor. They had just about zero honor in a war. You are going to love reading about their MO in World War II. Everyone knows about Nanking, but that's just one of the many ways Japan lacked honor. For example, their navy issued a standing order for all captured prisoners to be killed, which is an international naval war crime, so this Japanese captain sank a Dutch merchant ship, took 100+ people aboard, beheaded some, gunned down others, and when he got bored he tied the rest to the outside of his submarine before diving back down. Then when Britain called them out for committing a war crime, Japan denied doing it, and the captain got a promotion for his effort. Oh, and one of those prisoners was a woman, so that was nice. The captain ended up committing suicide when Japan surrendered, his crew said it was because he knew he would undoubtedly be in a front seat for the international war crime tribunal afterwards, because he didn't do this to just one ship, he kept doing it to other ships.

So they actively attacked the defenseless, lied about it, and then didn't have the guts to face the consequences. That's at least 3 different ways they were dishonorable in regards to one single incident.

Yeah, when I wrote my first response, I wasn't actually thinking about it in terms of war for some reason.

Had I actually taken a second to think about it, I likely would have realized all of this. That said, I'm likely going to go take some time to research because who doesn't like some history, right?

[sirmola]

Revelation chapter 27 occurs immediately (by which i mean less than 2-3 minutes) after Revelation chapter 26, but we have all the time in the world to do whatever, whereas the 4 other times one chapter occurs immediately after another, we can't even save. I get that then we wouldn't be able to save for 3 chapters, but then why not allow us to save the other 4 times?

[BANRYU]

The connection to gameplay is fighting soldiers even though you are allies in story. It is a writing problem, but it affects the gameplay in a significant way,

Ahhh... No, you're right in that case, because it DOES affect the unit types you face in combat. Point well made.

The only time it kiiiinda makes sense is when you're sent to quell the rebellions in the Ice Tribe and Cheve, I guess....? But... still.... yeah, haha...

[Augestein]

Well, there's also the fact that "taking and killing hostages in cold blood" is, well, bad, no matter the culture. The only thing that Corrin n' pals did was prevent war crimes that wouldn't have actually accomplished anything, since killing hostages would've just make Hoshido less likely to surrender.

They had them captive though. They didn't necessarily have to kill them in cold blood. They captured them fair and square. I'd say capturing all of the royal line is enough reason to force a surrender. I'd have liked the scene more if it had been something like :

Zola had captured say Ryoma, Hinoka and then Elise and Leo by accident and was going to kill all 4 of them regardless and count them as "war casualties" or something. If it had become "rescue part of your soldiers that were threatened by Zola's actions but also help the enemy" it'd have been a bit better. Because at least then Corrin justifying attacking Nohrians would work here because he was killing Nohrians to prevent HIS Nohrians from being killed. It's kind of selfish but it's more understandable and considerably less dumb. It'd be like if Ike refused to use Ragnell because it wouldn't be honoring his father by not winning with Urvan. It's like... That makes no sense. Your goal is to beat the BK, so you should use the best possible strategy... (so a hammer obviously).

[NekoKnight]

Another story =/= gameplay that stood out to me was Kamui's dragon form. It gets a brief acknowledgement by the Hoshidan siblings but the Nohrians never mention it at all. Neither family really concerns themselves with why Kamui and only Kamui has those powers.

Yeah, when I wrote my first response, I wasn't actually thinking about it in terms of war for some reason.

Had I actually taken a second to think about it, I likely would have realized all of this. That said, I'm likely going to go take some time to research because who doesn't like some history, right?

Here's a good place to start. It does a long deconstruction of the popular image of Bushido but it also discusses some of the specifics of samurai ethics and behavior. In response to the earlier conversation, people aren't generally going to choose honor when it comes to life and death situations. No sane leader would return the leaders of the enemy back over to their army after capturing them.

They had them captive though. They didn't necessarily have to kill them in cold blood. They captured them fair and square. I'd say capturing all of the royal line is enough reason to force a surrender. I'd have liked the scene more if it had been something like :

Zola had captured say Ryoma, Hinoka and then Elise and Leo by accident and was going to kill all 4 of them regardless and count them as "war casualties" or something. If it had become "rescue part of your soldiers that were threatened by Zola's actions but also help the enemy" it'd have been a bit better. Because at least then Corrin justifying attacking Nohrians would work here because he was killing Nohrians to prevent HIS Nohrians from being killed. It's kind of selfish but it's more understandable and considerably less dumb. It'd be like if Ike refused to use Ragnell because it wouldn't be honoring his father by not winning with Urvan. It's like... That makes no sense. Your goal is to beat the BK, so you should use the best possible strategy... (so a hammer obviously).

If I were to rewrite their motives, I'd make it so only Sakura and Takumi were captured (valuable hostages but not enough to force a surrender). Zola wants to execute them out of revenge for either humiliating him or killing his friends in battle, but the main party wants to use them for a hostage exchange (let's say Camilla or Leo get captured).

Conclusion: The Hoshidan nobles are returned to the enemy but this time there is a legitimate reason to. You still get your Nohr vs Nohr battle.

Edited October 11, 2016 by NekoKnight

[DragonFlames]

Why can't we learn the spell Nyx used to massacre her entire village? It's not like we would be using it for fun like she did, it's not fair in the first place that we are always outnumbered.

If Garon sent Xander, Camilla, and Leo out on their respective missions regularly, but Corrin specifically is sent out without his own army as an unusual case, then how come when Xander, Camilla, and Leo join you, they don't get to combine their regular armies with yours, only their retainers?

Oh, they only talk about honor. They had just about zero honor in a war. You are going to love reading about their MO in World War II. Everyone knows about Nanking, but that's just one of the many ways Japan lacked honor. For example, their navy issued a standing order for all captured prisoners to be killed, which is an international naval war crime, so this Japanese captain sank a Dutch merchant ship, took 100+ people aboard, beheaded some, gunned down others, and when he got bored he tied the rest to the outside of his submarine before diving back down. Then when Britain called them out for committing a war crime, Japan denied doing it, and the captain got a promotion for his effort. Oh, and one of those prisoners was a woman, so that was nice. The captain ended up committing suicide when Japan surrendered, his crew said it was because he knew he would undoubtedly be in a front seat for the international war crime tribunal afterwards, because he didn't do this to just one ship, he kept doing it to other ships.

So they actively attacked the defenseless, lied about it, and then didn't have the guts to face the consequences. That's at least 3 different ways they were dishonorable in regards to one single incident.

So THAT'S why Xander is popular in Japan! Now I get it...

[Thane]

So THAT'S why Xander is popular in Japan! Now I get it...

ZING!

I don't know if it's a very good example, but could you include Corrin being a dragon here? I mean, no one in Nohr is apparently curious about how or why they can suddenly turn into a dragon - neither are the Hoshidans, but they at least see it happening. It's just so odd that this is not expanded upon at all. Oh, sure, I know about the DLC, but that doesn't explain why the siblings don't make it out to be a bigger deal, or Corrin themselves for that matter.

[DragonFlames]

ZING!

I don't know if it's a very good example, but could you include Corrin being a dragon here? I mean, no one in Nohr is apparently curious about how or why they can suddenly turn into a dragon - neither are the Hoshidans, but they at least see it happening. It's just so odd that this is not expanded upon at all. Oh, sure, I know about the DLC, but that doesn't explain why the siblings don't make it out to be a bigger deal, or Corrin themselves for that matter.

I agree with you.

The only character whose Dragon form is ever stated outside of one chapter is Kana.

The Dragon Stone gets mentioned once at the start of Conquest Chapter 7, when Corrin is apparently too slow to transform, which in itself doesn't make any sense, since it never stopped the Kitsune or Wolfskin.

But yeah, you'd think the Nohrian Royals would be surprised if Corrin suddenly turned into a Dragon mid-fight.

[Res]

Silas, Elise, Xander and Leo all probably have this problem too but I didn't bother to check.

Silas does acknowledge/mention his mount, but yes to the others.

Then there's Izana dying in Revelations. Honestly. I think that one is one of the most random deaths.

It IS random, but it made me laugh, so it's actually one of my favourite deaths. Just completely nonsensical.

Also, things like killing Zola in gameplay, then Leo executing him in a cutscene afterward. I get that stuff like that's been done in the series before, but they really should've just made Corrin's and Leo's little exchanges with him there into their respective battle quotes with him and had Zola die when you kill him in gameplay.

Ugh, the one that bugged me most was (Birthright spoiler):

When you kill Iago.

I had Takumi face off with Iago and he actually gets unique dialogue if you do that's really great and fitting to the plot. He says how he's going to kill Iago in revenge for possessing him, and he delivers a killing blow...

...then Leo steps in and finishes Iago off. Argh!

Another story =/= gameplay that stood out to me was Kamui's dragon form. It gets a brief acknowledgement by the Hoshidan siblings but the Nohrians never mention it at all. Neither family really concerns themselves with why Kamui and only Kamui has those powers.

Yesss. This is my biggest gripe aside from the whole deeprealms/kids/My Castle nonsense.

Edited October 11, 2016 by Res

[ajmiam]

Why is my army hosting stores in my own dimension?

Why do I have to spend money to buy shit I already own in my own castle?

I always tried to imagine it as the My Castle store not being a real store; the shopkeeper goes out into the real world and buys/sells the item you request at a real store. People experienced in using a certain weapon will know how to find the best deals from experience procuring such weapons before.

The game's literal depiction of the castle stores makes zero sense so I came up with that to explain away the stupid. My explanation has a few plot holes in it too but eh.

==========

Another gripe is how sometimes when you reduce an enemy to 0HP you just "incapacitated" it and it gets "healed" at the end of the fight and your army gets commended for being "peaceful". Other times, an enemy hits 0 and it's dead as a doornail. It's especially silly how you can use the Lethality skill on enemies you're not "killing", as its animation shows blood geysering out of the poor victim's neck and splattering all over the "camera"...but the victim'll be just fine!

[Qilin]

Why isn't Takumi fighting anybody during the "Mother" prologue? He asked what Corrin transformed into and then just fucked off after Ryoma told him.

Edit: Then he blames Corrin. Then he wanted Corrin to leave. Then at chapter 23 he shouts at Corrin for leaving. WTF?

Edited October 12, 2016 by Qilin

[Etrurian emperor]

The Kotaro chapter and Kamui's justification for killing him are similarly nonsensical. Sure, let's kill the guy, Nohr's ally, who has a plan to end the war quickly and with minimal bloodshed, while aiding an agent of the enemy army to rescue another agent of the enemy army, because using a hostage is "dishonorable."

That's generally my take on that too. Kotora didn't really do anything wrong except getting Corrin to help by lying he was low on soldiers himself. Why is it so bad for Kotaro to hold Kagero hostage when she was already the enemy of both of Norh and Kotaro. Its just something that happens in a war. It would be different if Kotaro was conspiring against Norh too but he was at least decently loyal before Corrin turned on him.

On the Zola situation I'm a bit more lenient. Pretending to be a neutral party and kidnapping the entire royal family on neutral grounds is probably a war crime that's going to set some seriously bad precedence. If Norh can do it than everyone can, even with the Norhians themselves as the target. Zola also wasn't going to ransom the royals for a quick peace, he was just going to murder them.

Why isn't Takumi fighting anybody during the "Mother" prologue? He asked what Corrin transformed into and then just fucked off after Ryoma told him.

Takimi is implied to have been the closet to Mikoto and the one most affected by her death. Maybe seeing her die just left Takumi too shocked to fight.

if Garon sent Xander, Camilla, and Leo out on their respective missions regularly, but Corrin specifically is sent out without his own army as an unusual case, then how come when Xander, Camilla, and Leo join you, they don't get to combine their regular armies with yours, only their retainers?

They probably do come with troops. Regular soldiers have always been implied to be there in the background, you just don't see a lot of them. Tellius is a bit more obvious about showing that you are in fact journeying with regular troops but I'm quite sure they are present in most games.

The exception would be blazing sword because Eliwood is leading a small company on a personal quest rather than an army in wartime.

Edited October 12, 2016 by Etrurian emperor

[NekoKnight]

On the Zola situation I'm a bit more lenient. Pretending to be a neutral party and kidnapping the entire royal family on neutral grounds is probably a war crime that's going to set some seriously bad precedence. If Norh can do it than everyone can, even with the Norhians themselves as the target. Zola also wasn't going to ransom the royals for a quick peace, he was just going to murder them.

This is the same Nohr that decided to kill every singer in Nestra (a neutral country) because of Azura's failed hit job. I don't think they gave a shit about neutral grounds or what anyone thought of them. Besides, Zola killing the Hoshidan royals is still a hell of a lot better choice than setting them free, no strings attached.

Edited October 12, 2016 by NekoKnight

[Augestein]

If I were to rewrite their motives, I'd make it so only Sakura and Takumi were captured (valuable hostages but not enough to force a surrender). Zola wants to execute them out of revenge for either humiliating him or killing his friends in battle, but the main party wants to use them for a hostage exchange (let's say Camilla or Leo get captured).

Conclusion: The Hoshidan nobles are returned to the enemy but this time there is a legitimate reason to. You still get your Nohr vs Nohr battle.

This is one that would work as well. And yeah, I believe your conclusion is spot on. Basically anything to make a reason to need to fight Zola without it seeming like more of an excuse than a reason.

Another one that I find weird is your servant. How does Jakob/Felicia find you later on in your castle? You're in a pocket dimension, and yet the servant does this because... How? I don't get why they didn't just give you both servants in the beginning. I guess having two healers seems like a bit much, but it still works better than what we got.

[Tamanoir]

The Iago one really bugs me. In Conquest he is actually very capable at his job. Sure, he hates you, but he knows what needs to be done. A prince found out he was raised as an infiltration tool but comes back anyway? Iago is right to not trust the prince until he proves his loyalty. Everyone contaminated the trial results by interfering? Iago is right to blow the whistle. Groans of increasing discomfort? Iago correctly guessed immediately that the singer did it! The prince suddenly had an apparent change of heart and begins to understand your way? Iago is being fair when he rewards Corrin with a contribution to his war chest. But the king suddenly acted like he was on meth and then afterwards he confides in you that he wants one of his princes to suffer for the sake of God? Oh that's completely normal...

You know Iago doesn't makes any sense (though that may not be the first time Garon acts weirdly), but the ones who makes the least sense are actually the Nohrian Siblings.

Why aren't they scumbags ? Their father is clearly not a nice person (euphemism here), even before, and Iago and Hans (AKA the second most important person in Nohr and a High-Ranking Nohrian (?)) are cartoonishly evil. (Absolutely all the things about Iago are explained by : "because he's evil and that's what evil people do.")

​Elise being completely delude, that I can get. But Xander is an honorable knight (serving the Evil Empire, once again), and Leo, the cold, calculated srvant of the Evil Empire is... not actually evil ? I'm no fan of Camilla, but her behaviour makes more sense than the other two. I can guess they're good towards Corrin, but everything else makes few senses.

Another things Are Facelesses ctually explained at some points ? I can't say.

The Awakening Kids not switching clans when you join Hoshido doesn't makes more sense either.

[Azure Sen]

The Awakening Kids not switching clans when you join Hoshido doesn't makes more sense either.

The Awakening trio don't actually know Kamui is the person they're supposed to protect, so them not joining on Birthright for that reason makes sense. What doesn't make sense is them sticking with Nohr despite all the atrocities Nohr commits, or the fact that the scenario of a nation invading a peaceful neighboring county should really ring some alarm bells for them considering when it happened in their world, it led to the apocalypse. (Which is why my long-running headcanon is that the Awakening trio were originally supposed to only be expies a la Asugi, Caeldori and Rhajat, but were added in as themselves because fanservice at the last minute.)

[Thane]

The Awakening trio don't actually know Kamui is the person they're supposed to protect, so them not joining on Birthright for that reason makes sense. What doesn't make sense is them sticking with Nohr despite all the atrocities Nohr commits, or the fact that the scenario of a nation invading a peaceful neighboring county should really ring some alarm bells for them considering when it happened in their world, it led to the apocalypse. (Which is why my long-running headcanon is that the Awakening trio were originally supposed to only be expies a la Asugi, Caeldori and Rhajat, but were added in as themselves because fanservice at the last minute.)

Makes sense. Whenever they talk about it in the supports it just sounds...off. Like, they suddenly found themselves in the castle and Garon of all people told the Nohrian royals to keep them as retainers? What? Why?

[Nanima]

You know Iago doesn't makes any sense (though that may not be the first time Garon acts weirdly), but the ones who makes the least sense are actually the Nohrian Siblings.

Why aren't they scumbags ? Their father is clearly not a nice person (euphemism here), even before, and Iago and Hans (AKA the second most important person in Nohr and a High-Ranking Nohrian (?)) are cartoonishly evil. (Absolutely all the things about Iago are explained by : "because he's evil and that's what evil people do.")

​Elise being completely delude, that I can get. But Xander is an honorable knight (serving the Evil Empire, once again), and Leo, the cold, calculated srvant of the Evil Empire is... not actually evil ? I'm no fan of Camilla, but her behaviour makes more sense than the other two. I can guess they're good towards Corrin, but everything else makes few senses.

Another things Are Facelesses ctually explained at some points ? I can't say.

The Awakening Kids not switching clans when you join Hoshido doesn't makes more sense either.

But Garon WAS nice once (if bad at keeping it in his pants). That's kind of an important point when it comes to the Nohrian siblings. Xander actually believes that he'll somehow get back to normal eventually. He grew up with Kind Daddy Garon for at least the first decade of his life. And Leo remembers being carried on Garon shoulders, so he had to be at least 3. The only one with zero memory of the real Garon is Elise, and she was kept away from the worst things.

Also Slime!Garon clearly wasn't interested in raising his kids to be 'Daddies little villains'. He just used them as tools and didn't spare a thought on corrupting them.

The Nohrian siblings do have their damages and commit their share of morally questionable deeds. But growing up in a cruel environment doesn't automatically mean you have to be an irredeemably evil jerk.

[Thane]

But Garon WAS nice once (if bad at keeping it in his pants). That's kind of an important point when it comes to the Nohrian siblings. Xander actually believes that he'll somehow get back to normal eventually. He grew up with Kind Daddy Garon for at least the first decade of his life. And Leo remembers being carried on Garon shoulders, so he had to be at least 3. The only one with zero memory of the real Garon is Elise, and she was kept away from the worst things.

Also Slime!Garon clearly wasn't interested in raising his kids to be 'Daddies little villains'. He just used them as tools and didn't spare a thought on corrupting them.

The Nohrian siblings do have their damages and commit their share of morally questionable deeds. But growing up in a cruel environment doesn't automatically mean you have to be an irredeemably evil jerk.

While I agree with them not having to be irredeemably evil, they do come across as both morons and karma Houdinis without a moral compass in the story.

Edited October 12, 2016 by Thane

[Qilin]

But Garon WAS nice once (if bad at keeping it in his pants). That's kind of an important point when it comes to the Nohrian siblings. Xander actually believes that he'll somehow get back to normal eventually. He grew up with Kind Daddy Garon for at least the first decade of his life. And Leo remembers being carried on Garon shoulders, so he had to be at least 3. The only one with zero memory of the real Garon is Elise, and she was kept away from the worst things.

Also Slime!Garon clearly wasn't interested in raising his kids to be 'Daddies little villains'. He just used them as tools and didn't spare a thought on corrupting them.

The Nohrian siblings do have their damages and commit their share of morally questionable deeds. But growing up in a cruel environment doesn't automatically mean you have to be an irredeemably evil jerk.

It's also hard to help bring down your family member. Even in the real world you have people who can't help but protect their criminal relatives, or at least cannot bring themselves to do anything to help catch them. Add that to the fact that all of the Nohrian royal mothers pretty much treated the prince and princesses worse than Garon did, and it is easy to understand why they all don't have the heart to bring him down. Despite his cruelty he is still the closest thing to a parent they have.

[NeonZ]

The Awakening trio don't actually know Kamui is the person they're supposed to protect, so them not joining on Birthright for that reason makes sense. What doesn't make sense is them sticking with Nohr despite all the atrocities Nohr commits, or the fact that the scenario of a nation invading a peaceful neighboring county should really ring some alarm bells for them considering when it happened in their world, it led to the apocalypse. (Which is why my long-running headcanon is that the Awakening trio were originally supposed to only be expies a la Asugi, Caeldori and Rhajat, but were added in as themselves because fanservice at the last minute.)

I think the last minute change was that they originally planned to make their DLC separate from the main plot, like most of Awakening's DLC.

In their supports, they reference a "mission" and a threat that needs to be defeated, but have no actual dialogue that indicates this threat is Anankos or is related to the main story at all. Their last stage sentences also say nothing about their mission, even though it's followed by their epilogue that mentions their departure. All the ties of their "mission" to the main plot come from their two DLC chapters (and later ones written obviously after those, like Heirs of Fates).

If they were originally planning to make their DLC quest much more standalone though, then all that would make a lot more sense.

Edited October 31, 2016 by NeonZ

[makuroh]

I can't believe no one mentioned this yet but...

PRINCE RYOMA WILL WAIT PATIENTLY FOR HIS REVENGE FOR 25 TURNS

So we had this entire scene in which the lobster goes super saiyan out rage and screams for murder after he finds out that you "killed" Hinoka, but then when the chapter starts he's just sitting there... drinking tea... I guess?

I know that they wanted to give you time for your other units to get there and help you out in case that your Corrin is too much of a scrub to take on Ryoma, but this ridiculous solution shattered all the tension from the story.

[Thane]

I can't believe no one mentioned this yet but...

PRINCE RYOMA WILL WAIT PATIENTLY FOR HIS REVENGE FOR 25 TURNS

So we had this entire scene in which the lobster goes super saiyan out rage and screams for murder after he finds out that you "killed" Hinoka, but then when the chapter starts he's just sitting there... drinking tea... I guess?

I know that they wanted to give you time for your other units to get there and help you out in case that your Corrin is too much of a scrub to take on Ryoma, but this ridiculous solution shattered all the tension from the story.

There was tension in the story?

[Augestein]

There definitely should have been at that point. I definitely agree with that on ryoma.

[shadowofchaos]

As for the comment on Japanese history... they still deny and refuse to put certain historical events in Japanese textbooks.

So, like the west with "Hoshido"... the disconnect of what the west perceives as Japanese and what is actually Japanese...

The honor stereotype has the disconnect of what was actually Japanese historical savagery and what the "ideal" with what Samurai are representing Japan's perception of honor... which is reflected in this media.

Edited October 31, 2016 by shadowofchaos