"Ask Fire Emblem Heroes Questions and Get Them Answered Here" Thread

[XRay]

Just had a thought. Manaketes have been with us since the start of the series, and Laguz has been with us since Path of Radiance.

- I think Heroes is the first game to introduce elves/fairies, dwarves, and giants?
- I think we are also the first game to have playable divinity?
- I think we are the second game to have playable undead? I believe Cipher got Risen before we got Líf and Thrasir?
- While not the first to introduce furries as a whole, I think we are the first to specifically introduce goat, cow, bat, and snake girls?
- We are also the first game to introduce "divorce" and "remarriage" via Summoner Support?
- I think we are the second game to have gay marriage? With Fates first and Three Houses third?
- I think we are the first game to have "polyarmorous marriage" with different people at the same time (married in lore, Summoner Support, Ally Support)?

Am I right on those assumptions?

Edited June 28, 2023 by XRay

[Xenomata]

@XRay

• A lot of Fire Emblem games, despite their fantasy elements, are still fairly grounded in reality in regards to the kinds of sentient creatures that humans interact with. It's pretty much just dragon people, furries, and... nope that's about it really. So yes, Fire Emblem Heroes would be the first game to introduce such beings.
  ...are Morphs people? Nobody seem to treat them as such...
• That really depends on your definition of "divinity". Tiki and Nagi for instance are of the Divine Dragon tribe and are probably the closest we have to "playable" naga, but neither come close to what Naga's power has been depicted being capable of. There's also Seteth and Flayn, but by all accounts the both of them are just regular people in the current age with no special powers, despite being the actual Cichol and Cethleann.
• If you want to count Cipher, sure we're the second. But if only going by Fire Emblem games which follow the FE 3/FE 10 numbering scheme, then Heroes should be the first.
• Among the playable non-dragon Laguz are Birds, Lions, Wolves, and Cats. Panne alluded to there being more Taguel species than Rabbits, but only mentions species that were Laguz. Fates brings us Kitsune and Wolfseggner. So yes, Heroes is a furries dream 😛
• The closest we have been able to have in terms of "divorce" or "remarriage" in the past is between characters that have had a relationship before the events of the game in question. Saizo and Kagero come to mind, but they only dated before separating due to different ideologies. The idea of pairing previously separated characters is basically nonexistent, but in terms of Gameplay yes, there is no system that lets you lose support ranks outside of letting people die.
• I am unable to answer the same-sex question confidently. Technically you could reach A supports and endings between people of the same gender in the GBA and Radiance games, but such endings and support conversations are almost all just buds chatting with buds.
• Yes, other FE games don't really give you the option to let characters have more than one "serious" relationship/support

I don't think using the term "marriage" is quite correct though. "Marriage" is what the support pairings in Genealogy, Awakening, and Fates can lead to. "Marriage" is what happens at a characters Ending text in all the other games with support systems that alter endings. The summoner and characters within the walls of Askr are unable to "marry" units, just form a close bond with them in basically the same way that Chrom and Robin have a close bond (and it's definitely borderline gay between them, just saying)

Edited June 29, 2023 by Xenomata

[Ice Dragon]

9 hours ago, XRay said:

While not the first to introduce furries as a whole,

It kind of depends on your definition of "furry", which doesn't really have a universal definition. However, for the purposes of tagging art, "furry" (e.g. Incineroar from Pokémon) usually uses a rather narrow definition that falls between "human with some animal features" (e.g. Panne) and "animal with some human features" (e.g. Big Bird from Sesame Street), as a narrower definition is more conducive for finding things that you are looking for or looking to avoid.

I believe the only things in Fire Emblem that potentially fall under the narrower definition of "furry" are the Gorgons of Sacred Stones and whatever that thing Heidr turned into was.

 

9 hours ago, XRay said:

- We are also the first game to introduce "divorce" and "remarriage" via Summoner Support?
- I think we are the second game to have gay marriage? With Fates first and Three Houses third?
- I think we are the first game to have "polyarmorous marriage" with different people at the same time (married in lore, Summoner Support, Ally Support)?

Being in a relationship and being in a marriage are two completely different things that are independent of each other.

[XRay]

7 hours ago, Xenomata said:

• ...are Morphs people? Nobody seem to treat them as such...

Oh shoot! Completely forgot about them. I have not gotten very far in Blazing Blade, but I do not think they were playable until Heroes?

7 hours ago, Xenomata said:

• That really depends on your definition of "divinity". Tiki and Nagi for instance are of the Divine Dragon tribe and are probably the closest we have to "playable" naga, but neither come close to what Naga's power has been depicted being capable of. There's also Seteth and Flayn, but by all accounts the both of them are just regular people in the current age with no special powers, despite being the actual Cichol and Cethleann.

I would say Naga, Ashunera (and her aspects), Anankos, and Sothis are divine, and like half the cast of Heroes belong in this category too. If I remember correctly, Fomortis can still be theoretically resurrected at the end of Sacred Stones since he is just trapped in a stone, not dead, so I would say he is divine too.

I want to say Mila and Duma are divine too, but I cannot say for certain, since they died but do not seem to linger around like Sothis does, so I am leaning towards they might not be divine. Grima is on the way to divinity, but he died, so at best, he was on the level of Mila and Duma; he got worshippers, but I would not say he achieved godhood yet. On the other hand, I think Hel died, but she did not seem to linger around in any way, shape, or form either, and she is definitely a god, so I am not sure how to explain that; kind of ironic too that the goddess of death can die like a mortal.

Tiki and Nagi feel like Seiros, Seteth, and Flayn. They do not seem powerful enough and they are pretty mortal. If I remember correctly though, I think in one of the Awakening DLCs Tiki did achieve godhood in order to defeat Grima?

I have not played the new game yet, so I am not sure where Alear belongs.

7 hours ago, Xenomata said:

I don't think using the term "marriage" is quite correct though. "Marriage" is what the support pairings in Genealogy, Awakening, and Fates can lead to. "Marriage" is what happens at a characters Ending text in all the other games with support systems that alter endings. The summoner and characters within the walls of Askr are unable to "marry" units, just form a close bond with them in basically the same way that Chrom and Robin have a close bond (and it's definitely borderline gay between them, just saying)

It is probably not the right term, but in my head cannon it is, and my head cannon will shoot anyone else's head canon that says otherwise. Ha!

5 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

I believe the only things in Fire Emblem that potentially fall under the narrower definition of "furry" are the Gorgons of Sacred Stones and whatever that thing Heidr turned into was.

Oh yeah! Well, I guess that means Sacred Stones is technically the first one to introduce Laguz! They just were not playable yet until the next game. And Heroes is still the first game to have playable snake girls. Still waiting on playable horse girls.

5 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Being in a relationship and being in a marriage are two completely different things that are independent of each other.

That is true in the real world. But in a fantasy world like Fire Emblem, true love exists and only lovers marry. Hardin and Nyna were just incompatible. Arvis and Deirdre got mental issues. Garon is a pervert. But outside of those exceptions, relationship equals marriage.

Marriage is not exactly the right term, but when they play wedding music for Summoner Support reaching S, it is kind of what they are implying.

[Xenomata]

7 hours ago, XRay said:

Oh shoot! Completely forgot about them. I have not gotten very far in Blazing Blade, but I do not think they were playable until Heroes?

Oh yeah no all Morphs were purely an antagonistic force you had to kill.

7 hours ago, XRay said:

Tiki and Nagi feel like Seiros, Seteth, and Flayn. They do not seem powerful enough and they are pretty mortal. If I remember correctly though, I think in one of the Awakening DLCs Tiki did achieve godhood in order to defeat Grima?

Tiki was killed by Grima, but she was able to reawaken as the new Naga of a different timeline (the one in which The Future Past DLC takes place and which the Fallen Morgans come from)
...that'd probably be the basis of a Legendary Adult Tiki actually...

[Ice Dragon]

Now that we just had a sudden influx of fancy new skills, I'm once again suffering from indecisiveness in Hall of Forms.

I'm obviously targeting Naesala this time around, and here's what I'm thinking so far:

Raven King Beak [unique]
Harsh Command+
Blue Flame
Distant A/S Solo
Escape Route 4 / Beast N Trace 3 / Guard 4
S/D Rein Snap / Def/Res Smoke 3

Harsh Command+ is because I got Rally Atk/Spd+ on him the first time. Blue Flame is the only 500-SP Special he has access to that isn't Aether or Galeforce, and I didn't grab it previously.

Distant A/S Solo isn't particularly great on him, but it's harder to get than the alternatives. I have plenty of copies of Surge Sparrow and Atk/Spd Catch. I could be convinced to run Atk/Spd Clash 4, but even if I don't have many copies of it, it has decent distribution, so it wouldn't be hard for me to get normally.

I'm not sure if I'd rather run Escape Route 4 or Beast N Trace 3. Escape Route 4 is hard to get and generally useful. Beast N Trace is also hard to get, but doesn't come with stat boosts, and the main reason to run it is to remove the positioning requirement for his transformation. However, the only thing he really gains from transforming is the +2 Atk and +1 movement, and the latter can be made up for with S/D Rein Snap. Guard 4 is also an option to grant percentage damage reduction since he doesn't really have any other options (and Brash Assault 4 isn't in the skill pool yet). While it lacks the Canto effect, Canto is less important if Naesala is running Galeforce, and damage reduction is something Naesala really needs with his low Def stat.

S/D Rein Snap is harder to get and allows him to get his +1 movement with an easier condition as well as grant all of the usual effects of S/D Rein. Def/Res Smoke 3 grants Pathfinder, which is useful for Galeforce teams, but is slightly easier for me to get because I can duplicate it with my sea of Rearmed Ophelias. Guidance 4 is also an option, but it doesn't seem to be quite as useful as the other options for Naesala in particular.

 

I'm currently leaning towards the first skill in each slashed skill slot. Does anyone have any other thoughts on the skill options, and are there skills that I have forgotten exist and should be considered?

[Xenomata]

15 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

I'm currently leaning towards the first skill in each slashed skill slot. Does anyone have any other thoughts on the skill options, and are there skills that I have forgotten exist and should be considered?

Assuming you'd use Naesala and not just get him for novelty, I'd still get Clash 4 on him just because DasS doesn't have much of any good place on him. We're talking about a skill whose primary effect is DC with a statboost that's on the same level as Tier 3 skills. Clash 4 is more common, but at least does something for a PP unit like Naesala and pairs well with having a near-permanent 3-move, plus the statboost is always going to be a few points higher than DasS. This is also assuming you don't already have Surge Sparrow on him.
Plus most of the units with ASclash4 on them already have other skills that might be considered worth fodderable on them, and without NY!Panne you'll be forced to fully inherit Clash4 onto them without any other skills.

If just for novelty though, then yeah DasS is perfectly fine to get on him.

Edited July 11, 2023 by Xenomata

[Ice Dragon]

4 hours ago, Xenomata said:

This is also assuming you don't already have Surge Sparrow on him.
Plus most of the units with ASclash4 on them already have other skills that might be considered worth fodderable on them, and without NY!Panne you'll be forced to fully inherit Clash4 onto them without any other skills.

I don't already have Surge Sparrow on him, but I have 8 spare copies of Brave Eirika, so there isn't really a point in getting it from Hall of Forms.

Atk/Spd Clash 4 comes from Brave Seliph, who has nothing else worth inheriting. I don't have any plans to merge him at the moment, so I have 2 spare copies of him lying around in case I want the skill. And as previously mentioned, Atk/Spd Clash is pretty likely to get more distribution in the near future, so I'm not particularly worried about its availability.

 

And yes, I do plan on actually using Naesala after this, even if it'll mostly be for game modes with unit restrictions and Arena Assault.

[XRay]

On 7/10/2023 at 2:32 AM, Ice Dragon said:

Distant A/S Solo isn't particularly great on him, but it's harder to get than the alternatives. I have plenty of copies of Surge Sparrow and Atk/Spd Catch. I could be convinced to run Atk/Spd Clash 4, but even if I don't have many copies of it, it has decent distribution, so it wouldn't be hard for me to get normally.

Distant A/S Solo generally is not great on him, but it is nice to have in Pawns of Loki to deal more damage in case you have trouble getting a Far Saver. If you have no shortage of Player Phase A skills, might as well give him something a bit more rare.

On 7/10/2023 at 2:32 AM, Ice Dragon said:

I'm not sure if I'd rather run Escape Route 4 or Beast N Trace 3. Escape Route 4 is hard to get and generally useful. Beast N Trace is also hard to get, but doesn't come with stat boosts, and the main reason to run it is to remove the positioning requirement for his transformation. However, the only thing he really gains from transforming is the +2 Atk and +1 movement, and the latter can be made up for with S/D Rein Snap. Guard 4 is also an option to grant percentage damage reduction since he doesn't really have any other options (and Brash Assault 4 isn't in the skill pool yet). While it lacks the Canto effect, Canto is less important if Naesala is running Galeforce, and damage reduction is something Naesala really needs with his low Def stat.

I would go for whichever skill is harder to get, so I lean towards Beast N Trace. Seems more likely Escape Route 4 will have better availability over time since any unit can have it. I cannot really imagine Beast N Trace being very common even in the future unless they decide to release a lot more beast units.

On 7/10/2023 at 2:32 AM, Ice Dragon said:

S/D Rein Snap is harder to get and allows him to get his +1 movement with an easier condition as well as grant all of the usual effects of S/D Rein. Def/Res Smoke 3 grants Pathfinder, which is useful for Galeforce teams, but is slightly easier for me to get because I can duplicate it with my sea of Rearmed Ophelias. Guidance 4 is also an option, but it doesn't seem to be quite as useful as the other options for Naesala in particular.

I would go for S/D Rein Snap. It is harder to get, Say'ri: Righteous Bride does not come with anything else particularly valuable (Life and Death is pretty common and there is less demand for it compared to other A skills), and melee Galeforcers are like a dime a dozen. Unless you really need S/D Rein Snap or you are a big fan of Say'ri: Righteous Bride, I cannot imagine people pulling for her.

Leila: Keen Lookout does not have much else either, but at least she is interesting and unique. Bernadetta: Late Hibernator got Remote Sparrow and Escape Route. Linde: Bound by Fate got Remote Sparrow, S/R Far Trace, and is a Harmonized Hero. So besides for Def/Res Smoke, these units got a lot more going for them in my opinion.

[Ice Dragon]

4 hours ago, XRay said:

I would go for whichever skill is harder to get, so I lean towards Beast N Trace. Seems more likely Escape Route 4 will have better availability over time since any unit can have it. I cannot really imagine Beast N Trace being very common even in the future unless they decide to release a lot more beast units.

My biggest argument against Beast N Trace is the fact that Escape Route 4 actually brings me something of value on top of being difficult to get, whereas Beast N Trace doesn't do anything.

The only thing that Beast N Trace does is give Naesala a permanent +2 Atk and +1 movement and Canto. S/D Rein Snap already grants +1 movement, and S/D Near Trace 3 already grants +3 Atk/Spd and Canto, so there isn't really a reason to ever run Beast N Trace on him unless he can't activate S/D Rein Snap.

It would be easier to convince me to grab Guard 4 over Beast N Trace right now, and the main thing stopping me from grabbing Guard 4 is the fact that the current source of the skill is a Mythic Hero, which is generally easier for me to get copies of (though it currently looks like Gotoh is going to be one of the units in the Legendary/Mythic pool that will dodge me forever).

 

4 hours ago, XRay said:

Leila: Keen Lookout does not have much else either, but at least she is interesting and unique. Bernadetta: Late Hibernator got Remote Sparrow and Escape Route. Linde: Bound by Fate got Remote Sparrow, S/R Far Trace, and is a Harmonized Hero. So besides for Def/Res Smoke, these units got a lot more going for them in my opinion.

I have no intention of foddering Special Heroes until they reach +10 with the exception of a few armors (and maybe Duo Mark).

And as I've already mentioned, I can already duplicate Def/Res Smoke 3 because I'm swimming in copies of Rearmed Ophelia, who got Def/Res Smoke 3 from a spare Linde.

[Xenomata]

8 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

My biggest argument against Beast N Trace is the fact that Escape Route 4 actually brings me something of value on top of being difficult to get, whereas Beast N Trace doesn't do anything.

The only thing that Beast N Trace does is give Naesala a permanent +2 Atk and +1 movement and Canto. S/D Rein Snap already grants +1 movement, and S/D Near Trace 3 already grants +3 Atk/Spd and Canto, so there isn't really a reason to ever run Beast N Trace on him unless he can't activate S/D Rein Snap.

Escape Route 4 technically also offers "permanent" Canto since Naesala only needs to lose 1 HP to be able to trigger Canto, and all that'd require to achieve is combat against a Melee/CC unit who doesn't die in one hit (and with how common damage reduction or methods of greatly lowering the enemies Atk has become, that's becoming a much easier task to achieve)
It's also just Canto [1] instead of the slightly more valuable Canto [Rem. +1], but I can't think of many cases where the difference matters.
You could also get the Canto [1] effect from Alarm skills, though I assume Alarm AtkSpd is not in the HoF pool yet if you didn't bring it up as a possible option.

Edited July 12, 2023 by Xenomata

[Ice Dragon]

14 hours ago, Xenomata said:

Escape Route 4 technically also offers "permanent" Canto since Naesala only needs to lose 1 HP to be able to trigger Canto, and all that'd require to achieve is combat against a Melee/CC unit who doesn't die in one hit (and with how common damage reduction or methods of greatly lowering the enemies Atk has become, that's becoming a much easier task to achieve)
It's also just Canto [1] instead of the slightly more valuable Canto [Rem. +1], but I can't think of many cases where the difference matters.

Yeah, the particular comparison of Beast N Trace and S/D Near Trace was because if I'm getting S/D Rein Snap from this Forma, then it basically renders Beast N Trace obsolete since all of its effects are covered by one S/D Near Trace or S/D Rein Snap (i.e. S/D Near Trace + S/D Rein Snap is almost always better than Beast N Trace + S/D Rein Snap). As long as Naesala has S/D Rein Snap equipped (and I don't see him unequipping it anytime soon), there's no need to ever run Beast N Trace instead of S/D Near Trace.

Escape Route 4 is basically better than Beast N Trace by default because it provides an effect that S/D Near Trace doesn't (not to mention said teleportation is actually useful in Resonant Battles). The Canto effect from Escape Route 4 barely factors into the comparison since it's basically just icing on the cake, and is basically just the tiebreaker against Wings of Mercy 4 (which I think is in the pool, but I'm not 100% sure since I haven't seen it; EDIT: I just got it offered to me, so it's in the pool), which doesn't have Canto.

I guess this is also my justification for grabbing Distant A/S Solo instead of Atk/Spd Clash 4 from this Forma (in addition to how hard it is to get the skill). Distant A/S Solo at least gives me something that the other options don't and could potentially end up being used, even if I actually end up never using it.

 

14 hours ago, Xenomata said:

You could also get the Canto [1] effect from Alarm skills, though I assume Alarm AtkSpd is not in the HoF pool yet if you didn't bring it up as a possible option.

Alarm is unfortunately restricted to melee cavalry since fliers aren't able to learn the prerequisite Rouse skills.

 

Also, thanks to both of you @Xenomata @XRay. Making me actually explain my skill picks helps a lot for figuring out what I want to prioritize, even if the picks themselves haven't actually changed.

Edited July 12, 2023 by Ice Dragon

[Xenomata]

2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Alarm is unfortunately restricted to melee cavalry since fliers aren't able to learn the prerequisite Rouse skills.

Huh... thought Fliers could use Rouse? Shows how much I use those skills...

[Ice Dragon]

3 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

Huh... thought Fliers could use Rouse? Shows how much I use those skills...

I mean, Rouse was a pretty crummy skill from the outset due to its positioning requirement. Even on ranged cavalry that can attack farther than Menace's effect range, it's still usually better to run Menace on them instead of Rouse (since they don't get access to Alarm) because it's still easier to activate Menace than Rouse.

Fliers get a bunch of skills that allow teleportation and encourage keeping the team together, so it makes sense that they get Oath, but don't get Rouse.

[Othin]

Rouse is infantry/cavalry only, Oath is infantry/flier only.

[Flying Shogi]

How does Arcane Darkbow compare to Arcane Náströnd? Arcane Darkbow seems a little underwhelming to me. Náströnd's guaranteed follow-up functions similarly to follow-up negation neutralization for fast units and DR feels more useful than the Desperation effect from Darkbow.  

[Ether]

1 hour ago, Flying Shogi said:

How does Arcane Darkbow compare to Arcane Náströnd? Arcane Darkbow seems a little underwhelming to me. Náströnd's guaranteed follow-up functions similarly to follow-up negation neutralization for fast units and DR feels more useful than the Desperation effect from Darkbow.  

It depends on the unit. Nastrond is more general use, fast guys can use it well enough, it has things that slower bows or mixed phase bows can appreciate. Darkbow is all-in on fast offense. The gameplan is pretty much laid out by Alcryst, you use the nfu and desp alongside the A skill to double tap and pop deadeye on the second hit. Not taking a counter is better than taking one at reduced damage, but you need to be fast enough to double on your own merits. 

Nastrond has an edge vs things with a lot of bulk that can take your hits since you do bonus damage and take less back, while Darkbow is better vs stuff like hardy fighter since nfu cuts through its dual layered followup denial unlike Nastronds GFU, and firing off deadeye on the second hit before they can recharge their defensive special with a counter. Generally fast bows will want darkbow since they lack the bulk to take too many counters, even with a bit of dr, while slower bulkier bows will prefer Nastrond.

[Ice Dragon]

1 hour ago, Flying Shogi said:

How does Arcane Darkbow compare to Arcane Náströnd? Arcane Darkbow seems a little underwhelming to me. Náströnd's guaranteed follow-up functions similarly to follow-up negation neutralization for fast units and DR feels more useful than the Desperation effect from Darkbow.  

For reference:

Arcane Darkbow has:

• If HP is 25% or higher at start of combat:
  • Bow common effect
  • Slaying effect
  • +6 Atk/Spd in combat
  • Nullifies stat penalties on unit
  • Offensive half of Null Follow-Up
  • With a Blow condition:
    • Desperation effect

Arcane Nastrond has:

• With a Blow-or-Unity condition:
  • Bow common effect
  • Slaying effect
  • +5 to all stats in combat
  • +4~12 Atk in combat based on the opponent's maximum Special cooldown (+12 if the opponent's maximum Special cooldown is zero, +4 if the opponent's maximum Special cooldown is 4 or more or the opponent doesn't have a Special equipped)
  • Guaranteed follow-up
  • 30% damage reduction on opponent's first attack

 

The main advantage of Arcane Darkbow is the fact that the Desperation effect allows the unit to forgo Remote Sparrow for a more offensively stronger A skill, giving the unit access to Atk/Spd Catch 4, Atk/Spd Ideal 4, Atk/Spd Finish 4, Atk/Spd Hexblade, and Flash Sparrow depending on movement type. The Desperation effect is also generally safer than damage reduction due to the increasing prevalence of effects that nullify percentage damage reduction and weapons with the Brave effect on enemy phase that have a second hit to punch through the first-attack condition.

While the stat penalty nullification makes Atk/Spd Unity unviable and nullifies Grand Strategy, if you aren't running a Grand Strategy team, it's still a worthwhile effect to have in game modes where stat penalties are common.

The main disadvantage is that it's less viable on units that aren't close to the top in Spd, and it's not viable at all on enemy-phase units regardless of Spd due to having zero defensive effects on enemy phase (not even a stat boost). Arcane Nastrond also has a gigantic boost to Atk that you can't really make up for when you aren't hit with an Atk Penalty.

 

Arcane Darkbow is best used on fast player-phase infantry since they have better A skills to pick from compared to other movement types.

Fast player-phase units of other movement types can go either way. The biggest issue for them right now with Arcane Darkbow is that they don't really have access to A skills other than Atk/Spd Catch 4, which is only +2 Atk/Spd better than Remote Sparrow and might not be worth losing the huge boost to Atk from Arcane Nastrond. In terms of skill efficiency, Arcane Nastrond is also natively on a flier, so it's easier to get skills for non-infantry units with it.

Everything else should use Arcane Nastrond.

Arcane Darkbow is also not compatible with Hardy Bearing, making Arcane Nastrond a strictly better choice if you're using the unit with Hardy Bearing as a counter to Vantage effects.

Edited July 17, 2023 by Ice Dragon

[Flying Shogi]

8 hours ago, Ether said:

Nastrond has an edge vs things with a lot of bulk that can take your hits since you do bonus damage

8 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Arcane Nastrond also has a gigantic boost to Atk that you can't really make up for when you aren't hit with an Atk Penalty.

This is where I'm a little lost. Is this because special cooldown count - 1 being more common? This is my lack of exposure speaking here but I want to say that I usually see enemy units hovering around 1 or 2 cooldown so that would translate to 10 and 8 extra damage respectively. Is that amount considered a large amount of damage by the current standard? I'm genuinely asking because with how hard new units hit these days I'm hesitant to let my units take attacks so I'm not surprised to see large counter attack damage anymore. I can see 10 damage being considered a large amount and 8 being on the higher end but it's starting to feel like these values are becoming the norm.

Edited July 18, 2023 by Flying Shogi

[Ice Dragon]

4 hours ago, Flying Shogi said:

This is where I'm a little lost. Is this because special cooldown count - 1 being more common? This is my lack of exposure speaking here but I want to say that I usually see enemy units hovering around 1 or 2 cooldown so that would translate to 10 and 8 extra damage respectively. Is that amount considered a large amount of damage by the current standard? I'm genuinely asking because with how hard new units hit these days I'm hesitant to let my units take attacks so I'm not surprised to see large counter attack damage anymore. I can see 10 damage being considered a large amount and 8 being on the higher end but it's starting to feel like these values are becoming the norm.

It's not that the extra damage from Arcane Nastrond is large in itself, but that Arcane Darkbow doesn't have its own Atk-boosting effect to help match other than the penalty nullification (which is dependent on your opponent instead of on yourself).

Arcane Nastrond typically will get +8~10 Atk from its secondary effect on top of the +5 to all stats it already gets, which comes out to +13~15 Atk. In comparison, Arcane Darkbow only gets a +6 Atk/Spd effect and so only totals +6 Atk. This is a deficit of 7~9 points of Atk.

In addition to the Atk deficit, because Arcane Darkbow delays the opponent's counterattack, the unit will charge 1 fewer point of its Special before its follow-up attack, which means you're probably going to be using a weaker Special (or forced to run Flash Sparrow or Time's Pulse to run the same Special as Arcane Nastrond, which prevents you from running a skill with a larger Atk boost in that slot).

 

Basically, if you aren't getting hit with an Atk penalty, Arcane Darkbow sacrifices damage for better sustain (as long as you still kill the opponent in one round of combat). If you're getting hit with an Atk penalty (and aren't running Unity or Grand Strategy), Arcane Darkbow is better than Arcane Nastrond on units fast enough to reliably perform a natural follow-up (with the difference being bigger on infantry than on other movement types). If you're running Unity or Grand Strategy, Arcane Nastrond is always better.

[AimizuK]

Hello everyone.

Im building Zephia and got Far Trace skills while foddering Atk/Spd Catch 4 (first idea was to build her with Watersweep). Which build would you use?

a) Blazing wind + Far trace (she engages with her special and goes back). Its worse when she has not ready her special skill I guess.

b) Glimmer + Watersweep/windsweep to aboid enemies from counterttacks (also it will help her to keep her HP higher, but she cannot move after attacks)
 

 

 

Edited July 19, 2023 by AimizuK

[Ice Dragon]

4 hours ago, AimizuK said:

Hello everyone.

Im building Zephia and got Far Trace skills while foddering Atk/Spd Catch 4 (first idea was to build her with Watersweep). Which build would you use?

Zephia doesn't have the Slaying effect on her weapon, so the only way to reliably land her Special is to take a counterattack or have a form of Special acceleration as a support effect from a teammate. The problem is that her defenses are not great, and she can't reliably take a counterattack without something like Remote Sparrow or Guard 4 equipped to mitigate the damage.

I don't think it's ever worth running an AoE Special on a unit that doesn't have the Slaying effect outside of teams specifically dedicated to charging the AoE Special quickly (start-of-turn Pulse effects like Pent, active Pulse effects like Duo Chrom, +1 Special charge rate like Thorr, etc.). Charging up 3 points of Special cooldown is much easier to do quickly than 4 points, and getting it charged back up for a second use is also easier. With the exception of game modes like Summoner Duels, there's also very little reason to run AoE Specials on units that don't have access to Special Spiral. (And even if you do run an AoE Special, you're better off running Life and Death 4 instead of Atk/Spd Catch 4.)

 

Zephia has a few optimized builds I can see her viably run:

Sweep:

Zephia [+Spd]
Packleader Tome
[Assist]
Ruptured Sky / Glimmer / Moonbow / [Luna]
Atk/Spd Catch 4
Windsweep 3 / Watersweep 3
Spd/Res Hold / Atk/Spd Oath 4 / Guidance 4 / Def/Res Smoke 3
[any Sacred Seal that boosts Atk/Spd] / Phantom Spd 3

Damage reduction in the B slot:

Zephia [+Spd]
Packleader Tome
[Assist]
Ruptured Sky / Glimmer / Moonbow
Atk/Spd Catch 4
Guard 4 / Brash Assault 4
Spd/Res Hold / Atk/Spd Oath 4 / Guidance 4 / Atk/Spd Menace / Def/Res Smoke 3
[any Sacred Seal that boosts Atk/Spd]

Damage reduction in the A slot:

Zephia [+Spd]
Packleader Tome
[Assist]
Ruptured Sky / Glimmer / Moonbow
Remote Sparrow
S/R Far Trace 3 / Escape Route 4
Spd/Res Hold / Atk/Spd Oath 4 / Guidance 4 / Atk/Spd Menace / Def/Res Smoke 3
[any Sacred Seal that boosts Atk/Spd]

Luna is only an option in the first build if she doesn't have a support effect that charges her Special faster. If she can get a support effect from a teammate to charge her Special faster (+1 Special charge rate, Pulse, etc.), she should always run a 2-cooldown Special.

Her Sweep build is the safest build on her, and I think it should be the default build for general use. It's only really countered by the Null C-Disrupt effect, which is still rare, and by a few units that have multiple stacks of Phantom Spd or units that have high Spd and penalty nullification (or the Unity effect).

The other builds are stronger, but are more prone to being stopped by an enemy-phase Brave effect, percentage damage reduction nullification, or just a hell of a lot of damage.

Edited July 19, 2023 by Ice Dragon

[Flying Shogi]

1) For a fast unit that can do bonus damage(based on X% of Y stat), is it worth it to go with Y stat(excluding Atk) over Atk as a boon if you're focused getting KO's? Looking at LH!Guinevere as an example, 5 points of Res for 1 point of damage doesn't seem like a worthwhile trade when 1 point of Atk translates directly to 1 point of damage. As someone who doesn't play in the high level environment of competitive game modes like AR/SD that necessitates a well-built Savior unit to tank multiple hits based on what I've seen/heard, most game modes boil down to routing the map so I tend to lean towards units with high damage output. In this case, if I had a unit like Guinevere then I'd go for +Spd and ascend +Atk, luck permitting of course.    

2) How do DR effects like Dodge interact with bonus damage during damage calculation? I know bonus damage comes in 2 flavors of "boosts damage" or "deals damage" but I often hear "true damage" being thrown around. 

Edited July 27, 2023 by Flying Shogi

[Ice Dragon]

2 hours ago, Flying Shogi said:

1) For a fast unit that can do bonus damage(based on X% of Y stat), is it worth it to go with Y stat(excluding Atk) over Atk as a boon if you're focused getting KO's? Looking at LH!Guinevere as an example, 5 points of Res for 1 point of damage doesn't seem like a worthwhile trade when 1 point of Atk translates directly to 1 point of damage. As someone who doesn't play in the high level environment of competitive game modes like AR/SD that necessitates a well-built Savior unit to tank multiple hits based on what I've seen/heard, most game modes boil down to routing the map so I tend to lean towards units with high damage output. In this case, if I had a unit like Guinevere then I'd go for +Spd and ascend +Atk, luck permitting of course.    

Additional damage based on a percentage of a stat is never worth getting an Asset for if that's the only effect that depends on that stat. Even adding in damage reduction based on a percentage of the stat is still not worth it if those are the only effects depending on the stat.

Legendary Guinevere's most important stat is her Spd, then Atk, then Res. Even in PvE game modes, creeping Spd is pretty important, mostly because of those damned bats.

In general, the only reasons to run a different Asset are if the unit is intended to be a slow tank (fast tanks still want Spd) or if the unit needs to pass a stat comparison to activate an effect essential to the unit's function.

 

2 hours ago, Flying Shogi said:

2) How do DR effects like Dodge interact with bonus damage during damage calculation? I know bonus damage comes in 2 flavors of "boosts damage" or "deals damage" but I often hear "true damage" being thrown around. 

There is actually only one flavor of additional damage (if you aren't counting boosts to Atk). All of those terms refer to the same effect.

Damage calculation looks like this:

1. Increase damage by attacker's Atk stat plus all boosts to Atk, including from weapon triangle and effective damage
2. Reduce damage by defender's Def/Res stat plus all boosts to Def/Res; if the result is less than zero, set to zero
3. Increase damage by attacker's additional damage
4. If attacker activated a Special, increase damage by attacker's Special damage
5. If attacker is a staff unit and doesn't have the Wrathful Staff effect active, apply staff damage penalty
6. Reduce damage by defender's percentage damage reduction, including from defensive Specials
7. Reduce damage by defender's flat damage reduction; if the result is less than zero, set to zero
8. If defender activated a Miracle effect, reduce damage to leave defender with 1 HP

The damage number displayed in the battle forecast is the result after step 5 with no Special activation included.

[Flying Shogi]

21 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Additional damage based on a percentage of a stat is never worth getting an Asset for if that's the only effect that depends on that stat. Even adding in damage reduction based on a percentage of the stat is still not worth it if those are the only effects depending on the stat.

Legendary Guinevere's most important stat is her Spd, then Atk, then Res. Even in PvE game modes, creeping Spd is pretty important, mostly because of those damned bats.

In general, the only reasons to run a different Asset are if the unit is intended to be a slow tank (fast tanks still want Spd) or if the unit needs to pass a stat comparison to activate an effect essential to the unit's function.

The bolded part was going to be my followup question. I've always been wary of builds that recommend ascending Y stat(usually Def/Res) on a fast unit that comes with bonus damage and DR based on said stat. Fast units will always want Spd but when I see recommendations to ascend a stat like Res on Guinevere over Atk, it doesn't sit well with me since it's more straightforward to stack more Atk directly and aim for the KO. I can only speak to non-high level environments though. VoH and Tier 21 arena seems stressful.

21 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

There is actually only one flavor of additional damage (if you aren't counting boosts to Atk). All of those terms refer to the same effect.

Damage calculation looks like this:

1. Increase damage by attacker's Atk stat plus all boosts to Atk, including from weapon triangle and effective damage
2. Reduce damage by defender's Def/Res stat plus all boosts to Def/Res; if the result is less than zero, set to zero
3. Increase damage by attacker's additional damage
4. If attacker activated a Special, increase damage by attacker's Special damage
5. If attacker is a staff unit and doesn't have the Wrathful Staff effect active, apply staff damage penalty
6. Reduce damage by defender's percentage damage reduction, including from defensive Specials
7. Reduce damage by defender's flat damage reduction; if the result is less than zero, set to zero
8. If defender activated a Miracle effect, reduce damage to leave defender with 1 HP

The damage number displayed in the battle forecast is the result after step 5 with no Special activation included.

Interesting. If I'm understanding this correctly then all sources of bonus damage would be calculated in step 3. Then what was the craze about "true damage" in the earlier days of the game? With how much it was thrown around, it gave me the impression that it was handled in step 7 where the flat damage is pitted against the flat damage reduction.