Arena Discussion Thread (inc. Assault)

[MaskedAmpharos]

31 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Nowi needs T-Adept AND Swordbreaker to beat Falchion users, just T-Adept and Lucina slices her head off, just Breaker and Chrom just straight-up OHKOs. (This is without specials.) And even with both, Dragon Fang Lucina 1HKOs (and with just breaker Luna 1HKOs).

I'm not sure where you're getting your information, but Lucina does not simply "slice her head off". 

Neutral Lucina deals 15 x 2 damage to neutral Nowi with T-Adept 3. 

• Neutral Lucina has 50 base attack with Falchion
• 50 x 1.5 (eff vs dragons) = 75
• 75 x 0.6 WTD = 45
• Neutral Nowi has 30 def
• 45 - 30 = 15

Or more accurately, just 15 damage before Nowi OHKOs her. 

• Neutral Nowi has 45 base attack with Lightning Breath+
• 45 x 1.4 WTA = 63
• Neutral Lucina has 19 res and 43 HP
• 63 - 19 = 44
• RIP Lucina

EDIT: Meanwhile, Chrom also doesn't "straight up OHKO"

• Neutral Chrom has 53 base attack with Falchion
• 53 x 1.5 = 79
• 79 x 0.8 WTD = 64
• If Nowi doesn't have T-Adept, we're going to assume she has her default Def +3 for 33 def
• 64 - 33 = 31
• 45 - 31 = 14
• Nowi is left with 14 HP

Double EDIT: Oh, you want to play with specials? Alright then.

• As stated earlier, neutral Lucina has 45 effective damage vs T-Adept Nowi before specials
• Dragon Fang multiplies Lucina's base 50 attack, adding 25 bonus damage
• 45 + 25 = 70
• 70 - 30 (Nowi's def) = 40 
• Nowi still lives with 5 HP
• Lucina is dead

Edited May 1, 2017 by MaskedAmpharos

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Was gonna argue against Nowi needing both TA and Swordbreaker, then I remembered mine is +Atk, which is what lets her get away with just TA3 (she one-shots Lucina).

EDIT: ^ Heh, guess that's a never mind, since I didn't check the math. I think I assumed Lucina had 22 Res at neutral because I see it so much, but then I remembered Fury. Guess I also should've checked how much Nowi takes as well, though.

 

Score of 4812:

• Apr 28 2AM PT - #1435
• Apr 28 3PM PT - #1651
• Apr 29 3PM PT - #2099
• Apr 30 3PM PT - #2439
• May 1 3PM PT - #2935

Still no defenses. Looks like last week's team just couldn't cut it on this map set (I did try shuffling things a little here and there, but eh).

Edited May 1, 2017 by Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi

[MaskedAmpharos]

@DehNutCase Please don't take this the wrong way because it's not meant to be condescending. 

But if you're going to make statements like this, you need to be able to back them up with calculations.

That said, I very well could have made an error while calculating, so if you see anything I may have screwed up on, feel free to point it out!

[DehNutCase]

13 minutes ago, MaskedAmpharos said:

I'm not sure where you're getting your information, but Lucina does not simply "slice her head off". 

*snip*

Why are you sending default Lucina and Chrom versus Si'd Nowi? (Fun fact, default Lucina kills default Nowi.)

Lucina 2HKOs with L&D and +atk against T-Adept (all Lucina 2HKO with a Luna proc, which is primed after a single, earlier combat---Dragonic Aura is pretty much strictly superior, but Lucina has Luna access by default). Chrom, admittedly, needs a lot to OHKO, Death Blow 3 and +Atk, and it doesn't work if Nowi has better than base defenses. (Meaning =Nowi survives with just her default +3 Defense. I just like mentioning Chrom punching things to death, to be honest.)

This means Nowi needs sword-breaker and TA3 to counter the L&D Desperation build, since Lucina can either 1 shot with Luna if you don't have TA, or 2 shot with desperation if you don't have sword-breaker.

And Dragon Fang, of course, just OHKOs. (Though 4cd is hell to charge.)

Edited May 1, 2017 by DehNutCase

[MaskedAmpharos]

3 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Why are you sending default Lucina and Chrom versus Si'd Nowi?

Lucina 2HKOs with L&D and +atk against T-Adept (all Lucina 2HKO with a Luna proc, which is primed after a single, earlier combat---Dragonic Aura is pretty much strictly superior, but Lucina has Luna access by default). Chrom, admittedly, needs a lot to OHKO, Death Blow 3 and +Atk, and it doesn't work if Nowi has better than base defenses.

+Atk Lucina with LD will still be unable to kill T-Adept Nowi and will get one-shot in return.

• +Atk Lucina has 58 base attack with LD 3
• 58 x 1.5 (eff damage against dragons) = 87
• 87 x 0.6 WTD = 53
• 53 - 30 (Nowi's def) = 23
• Nowi still lives with 22 HP and OHKOs Lucina

Edited May 1, 2017 by MaskedAmpharos

[DehNutCase]

2 minutes ago, MaskedAmpharos said:

+Atk Lucina with LD will still be unable to kill T-Adept Nowi and will get one-shot in return.

• +Atk Lucina has 58 base attack with LD 3
• 58 x 1.5 = 87
• 87 x 0.6 = 53
• 53 - 30 = 23
• Nowi still lives and OHKOs Lucina

Desperation Lucina doubles.... (And Fury 3 variants survive the 1HKO to double to death @ full hp, admittedly needing a proc, without specials both survive). Edit: That's what Breaker is for, to prevent the desperation double.

Edited May 1, 2017 by DehNutCase

[MaskedAmpharos]

1 minute ago, DehNutCase said:

Desperation Lucina doubles....

You didn't mention Desperation, but if we're going to include that, then yes a +Atk Lucina with LD 3 and Desperation will ORKO neutral T-Adept Nowi. 

But if we're going to messing around with natures, +Def and +HP Nowi both survive, and if Lucina is not +Atk she won't secure the ORKO. 

[Ice Dragon]

41 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Nowi needs T-Adept AND Swordbreaker to beat Falchion users, just T-Adept and Lucina slices her head off, just Breaker and Chrom just straight-up OHKOs. (This is without specials.) And even with both, Dragon Fang Lucina 1HKOs (and with just breaker Luna 1HKOs).

1 minute ago, DehNutCase said:

Desperation Lucina doubles.... (And Fury 3 variants survive the 1HKO to double to death @ full hp).

+10 Nowi [+Atk] (Lightning Breath+, Triangle Adept 3, S Atk +1) one-hit kills every variant of +10 Lucina without at least 2 of Fury 3, HP +3, Res +3, [+HP], and [+Res].

 

A "properly" built player-controlled Nowi will always one-hit kill Lucina. A "properly" built player-controlled Lucina will always one-round kill Nowi. If you're going to make that comparison, you may as well compare apples to apples.

[DehNutCase]

8 minutes ago, MaskedAmpharos said:

You didn't mention Desperation, but if we're going to include that, then yes a +Atk Lucina with LD 3 and Desperation will ORKO neutral T-Adept Nowi. 

But if we're going to messing around with natures, +Def and +HP Nowi both survive, and if Lucina is not +Atk she won't secure the ORKO. 

True, but Desperation Lucina has a 3cd skill up after the first combat. (She either procs it in the first hit if she took a counter, or the second if she didn't). All variants KO non-breaker Nowi at that point.

Edit:

7 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

+10 Nowi [+Atk] (Lightning Breath+, Triangle Adept 3, S Atk +1) one-hit kills every variant of +10 Lucina without at least 2 of Fury 3, HP +3, Res +3, [+HP], and [+Res].

 

A "properly" built player-controlled Nowi will always one-hit kill Lucina. A "properly" built player-controlled Lucina will always one-round kill Nowi. If you're going to make that comparison, you may as well compare apples to apples.

Personally I would never spec for Lucina to kill Nowi, but you gave Nowi an attack seal, meaning +Hp 3 seal, Fury 3 Lucina survives, which, I suppose, would be standard for a tanky Lucina build? (Giving her the Hp seal, I mean).

 

Anyway, we're mostly talking about this because Hana does single digit damage to Nowi---0 with Brave Sword+---whereas Lucina is on the edge of actually winning. (TAdept on blues ruin both of them, but Lucina has Falchion to equalize the dragon match-ups somewhat.)

Edited May 1, 2017 by DehNutCase

[MaskedAmpharos]

6 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

True, but Desperation Lucina has a 3cd skill up after the first combat. (She either procs it in the first hit if she took a counter, or the second if she didn't)

If we're going to be including combat that happened before this battle, then sure she'll have an advantage, but I can just as easily say Nowi has a special of her own and Vantage ready. 

The fact of the matter is that projected calculations only go so far because the context of each battle is heavily dependent on both the match (in this case allowing Lucina to set up before facing Nowi) and player control, which is the most important part. 

I agree with @Ice Dragon in that a player-controlled Nowi is going to beat an AI-controlled Lucina and vice-versa.

This whole thing wasn't me trying to assert that "Nowi is better than Lucina" or anything like that.

I simply wanted to point out that you shouldn't make broad, sweeping statements without the means to back them up. And if you're going to say something like X character beats Y set, you should at least mention what skills you're putting on X and not leave it up for others to assume. 

4 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Personally I would never spec for Lucina to kill Nowi, but you gave Nowi an attack seal, meaning +Hp 3 seal, Fury 3 Lucina survives.

Who on earth is putting HP +3 on Lucina?

[DehNutCase]

10 minutes ago, MaskedAmpharos said:

Who on earth is putting HP +3 on Lucina?

If you're running Fury 3, obviously surviving certain match-ups is more important than maximum coverage. Otherwise you'd be using L&D. That's what the Hp seal is for.

10 minutes ago, MaskedAmpharos said:

If we're going to be including combat that happened before this battle, then sure she'll have an advantage, but I can just as easily say Nowi has a special of her own and Vantage ready. 

Nice. However, you forgot, we're not discussing Lucina v. Nowi primarily, we're discussing Lucina v. Hana.

Vantage wrecks Hana into little pieces, whereas Lucina has the bulk (and Falchion sustain) to 1RKO people through that. Nowi is one of Lucina's worst match-ups, because she really wants to run TA3 and Breaker to kill her, and it's still even enough that it's winnable. Hana has no hope vs. anyone speced to kill basically any type of sword.

Edit: I'm not saying Lucina trumps Nowi, I'm saying that Lucina's skillset and spread is so good that a lot of Hana's 'impossible' matchups are 'difficult' instead. Basically, Hana has the higher Ceiling (due to +1 Atk), but lower floor (due to unfortunate spread everywhere else.) Whereas Lucina has a really high floor and almost identical ceiling (since she only loses 1 Atk compared to Hana, and only if they're both running the Brave Sword+ build---Falchion matches Silver+).

Edited May 1, 2017 by DehNutCase

[MaskedAmpharos]

2 hours ago, DehNutCase said:

Nice. However, you forgot, we're not discussing Lucina v. Nowi primarily, we're discussing Lucina v. Hana.

Vantage wrecks Hana into little pieces, whereas Lucina has the bulk (and Falchion sustain) to 1RKO people through that. Nowi is one of Lucina's worst match-ups, because she really wants to run TA3 and Breaker to kill her, and it's still even enough that it's winnable. Hana has no hope vs. anyone speced to kill basically any type of sword.

I did actually forget that, so thanks for the reminder. 

Except Vantage doesn't "wreck Hana into little pieces" as she has the speed and bulk to take at least one hit from all non-blues (and why are you fighting blues with Hana to begin with) in the game (though I will concede that I haven't bothered looking through every imaginable nature and skill combination. 

I don't think there's any point or any need to be concerned with having one unit kill everything (with some exceptions, such as blade tome mages), so as long as Hana can take care of everything on the enemy side besides blues, then you'll be fine (assuming you have something on your team for blues, and if you don't then that's really your own fault). 

In the first place, my argument was never "Hana is better than Lucina" so much as me taking issue with your statement of "Lucina blows Hana out of the water", though if you wanted to go there, a Brave Sword Hana set has an overall better matchup spread than any of Lucina's sets. 

Spoiler

The set I used was +Atk Hana with Brave Sword+, Life and Death, Desperation, Luna, and the Atk +1 seal.

There may be a Lucina set I missed, but I didn't find a combination that had an overall better Win/Loss/Draw ratio. 

And even if there is one, my original point still stands that Hana is not vastly inferior to Lucina as you made her seem, regardless of whether or not that was your intent.

 

Edited May 2, 2017 by MaskedAmpharos

[GuiltyLove]

Hmm... looks like I have no one I can use for the arena this season. Anna is still only 4* and not decked out with any skills D: maybe I'll skip on this

[MrSmokestack]

On 4/29/2017 at 7:38 PM, MrSmokestack said:

My score of 4,790 gets me Rank 4,149. Currently at 8 defense wins with my highest getting me a score of 288.

Kicked out of 5k once again.

Same score leaves me at Rank 5,876 to close the season. No new defenses, either.

Seems like merges are the only way I'm ever going to break 5k at this point. That, or adding new skills, though my pool is running a bit dry.

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

9 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

Kicked out of 5k once again.

Same score leaves me at Rank 5,876 to close the season. No new defenses, either.

Seems like merges are the only way I'm ever going to break 5k at this point. That, or adding new skills, though my pool is running a bit dry.

Yeah, I think merging is the only way to break into 5k. I'm always stuck at just below 6k in rank.

[Xaos Steel Wing]

15 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

Kicked out of 5k once again.

Same score leaves me at Rank 5,876 to close the season. No new defenses, either.

Seems like merges are the only way I'm ever going to break 5k at this point. That, or adding new skills, though my pool is running a bit dry.

I feel ya.

Score of 4784 this season, just above rank 7k.

Only way I'd get into top 5k is if I got extremely lucky and run into 686+ teams every time, but in reality I get a decent bit of 682s and 684s.

Oh well, that's just the limit on how far I can go with the units I have as f2p.

I might experiment with different units entirely this upcoming week, maybe no archers at all this time.

Ironically the only 5* I have multiples of is Seliph (and several 4*s as well)... who I think is a rather poor unit and takes way too much investment just to become a middling one. I tried to make him work but is low speed just ruins him and making that work with, say, a Brave Sword+ and maybe even Distant Counter and Vantage or Desperation or something like that is just way too much investment for a unit I really don't like.

Edited May 1, 2017 by Xaos Steel Wing

[MrSmokestack]

20 minutes ago, Xaos Steel Wing said:

Ironically the only 5* I have multiples of is Seliph (and several 4*s as well)... who I think is a rather poor unit and takes way too much investment just to become a middling one. I tried to make him work but is low speed just ruins him and making that work with, say, a Brave Sword+ and maybe even Distant Counter and Vantage or Desperation or something like that is just way too much investment for a unit I really don't like.

I swear this forum has borne witness to the Baby Boomer Generation of Hectors. I have none.

Speaking of arena teams, I don't have any focus units I can take to Arena this season, but that's gacha for you. Although, if my new profile icon is of any indication, there is one bonus unit I do have in mind...

[DehNutCase]

2 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

I swear this forum has borne witness to the Baby Boomer Generation of Hectors. I have none.

Speaking of arena teams, I don't have any focus units I can take to Arena this season, but that's gacha for you. Although, if my new profile icon is of any indication, there is one bonus unit I do have in mind...

Spoiler

 

That was one hell of a re-roll, but still.

[MrSmokestack]

Just now, DehNutCase said:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

I rest my case.

[Xaos Steel Wing]

7 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

I swear this forum has borne witness to the Baby Boomer Generation of Hectors. I have none.

Speaking of arena teams, I don't have any focus units I can take to Arena this season, but that's gacha for you. Although, if my new profile icon is of any indication, there is one bonus unit I do have in mind...

I really don't look forward to arena being full of distant counter and close counter units now after this banner.

I find Eirika can deal with Hector quite well. Ryoma is a bit trickier depending on the positioning of other enemy units. But I've found in general that I see these teams with units like Hector, Ryoma, Takumi, and Nowi and think I'm going to lose... and somehow I usually end winning with no deaths a lot of the time anyway.

As for bonus units this week... I'll be using the Soren I just pulled.

I asked for thoughts about my planned Soren build in the Inheritance thread, but since this is relevant here for my next two weeks of arenas, and this thread is more active, I'll post my planned Soren build here too.

Quote

Soren

I'd like to get get Soren ready for the Arena for the next two weeks. I've kind of figured out a build but I'm still not sure on certain skill choices.

This build is for a fast Soren that will double a lot; this is with having Eirika on the same team buffing him in mind. My Soren is +Atk, -HP.

Weapon: Gronnraven+ / Gronnblade+

Special: Luna / Iceberg

A: Fury 3 / Life and Death 3

B: Green Tomebreaker / Blue Tomebreaker / Bowbreaker

C: Spur Res

Seal: +1 Speed

Gronnblade would be perfect with Eirika buffs (7 stat points buffed) BUT it only comes from a 5* Nino, and not only do I not have a single Nino despite pulling a ton of Greens trying to get her, if I did have Nino I'd rather just use her over Soren.

So I'll be using Gronnraven instead. Type advantage over bows and shurikens is nice too.

The A skill is the hardest choice. He has 33 speed by default, 34 speed with the seal, and 38 speed with Eirika buff. Fury 3 puts him at 41 speed with buffs, 37 speed without. Life and Death 3 puts him at 43 speed with buffs, and 39 without. BUT Life and Death 3 also gives him -5 to his already low defense, and -HP makes that even worse, so I'm worried that bow users at that point could be one-shotting him. Though Gronnraven type advantage mitigates that. Fury 3 helps vs bow users by giving him +3 def. I'm leaning towards Fury as I worry that LaD would make him too fragile to physical attacks.

So with Fury 3 and Gronnraven+ Soren would have 37/41 speed, and 51/54 attack (without Eirika buffs / with).

The B skill I'm also not sure about. Any of the 3 breakers could work.

Blue Tomebreaker might be overkill, but it would also stop Reinhardt and Olwen's brave tome from doubling him and so he would be a perfect counter to those pesky brave horse mages.

Green Tomebreaker only seems to be of use versus Nino, he would double Julia and Merric with this setup anyway. So it's probably the least useful...

Bowbreaker would stop Brave bow users from doubling him, and on top of Gronnraven make him even better versus Archers. But it only comes from Setsuna who I do not have, and I do not want to pull from colorless at the moment, I have an abundance of 5* archers as it is.

The more I think about it, Gronnblade+ would be amazing on him... but no Nino, she insists on avoiding me.

 

[DehNutCase]

1 hour ago, MaskedAmpharos said:

I did actually forget that, so thanks for the reminder. 

Except Vantage doesn't "wreck Hana into little pieces" as she has the speed and bulk to take at least one hit from all non-blues (and why are you fighting blues with Hana to begin with) in the game (though I will concede that I haven't bothered looking through every imaginable nature and skill combination. 

I don't think there's any point or any need to be concerned with having one unit kill everything (with some exceptions, such as blade tome mages), so as long as Hana can take care of everything on the enemy side besides blues, then you'll be fine (assuming you have something on your team for blues, and if you don't then that's really your own fault). 

In the first place, my argument was never "Hana is better than Lucina" so much as me taking issue with your statement of "Lucina blows Hana out of the water", though if you wanted to go there, a Brave Sword Hana set has an overall better matchup spread than any of Lucina's sets. 

  Reveal hidden contents

The set I used was +Atk Hana with Brave Sword+, Life and Death, Swordbreaker, Luna, and the Atk +1 seal.

There may be a Lucina set I missed, but I didn't find a combination that had an overall better Win/Loss/Draw ratio. 

And even if there is one, my original point still stands that Hana is not vastly inferior to Lucina as you made her seem, regardless of whether or not that was your intent.

 

Fair enough:

I mean, I know that Hana has a higher ceiling due to +1 Atk, it's just that she traded so much for that 1 Atk. She has worse bulk on physical,  nearly tied magical (Lucina has +6 hp, which counters her 7 res lead), and doesn't have access to Falchion. (Meaning Silver Sword+ Hana simply doesn't exist as a niche.)

All this means that her floor, that is, her worst case, is a lot worse than Lucina's. Which is why I rated her worse than Lucina. Basically: Lucina might not beat Hana in her own Niche, but outside that Brave Sword+ niche, Hana pretty much doesn't exist (since Lucina ends up being Hana, but better).

 

Although, thinking about it, perfect play means that it's pretty much the ceiling that matters, not the floor, meaning it's more a matter of a couple match-ups on the offense versus a assist skill slot and flexibility in skill choices. (Since Hana really wants AS and desperation, too many things can dent her beyond repair to forgo desperation, and too many things are 'un-fightable' to rely on Lucina's 'just run in' method of triggering desperation. Whereas Lucina can forgo desperation entirely to run a breaker-skill if she wished, relying on Falchion and running away to keep her topped, just for example.) Probably around the same, and I apologize if my wording made it seem like Hana is crap.

[Clogon]

2 hours ago, MaskedAmpharos said:

I did actually forget that, so thanks for the reminder. 

Except Vantage doesn't "wreck Hana into little pieces" as she has the speed and bulk to take at least one hit from all non-blues (and why are you fighting blues with Hana to begin with) in the game (though I will concede that I haven't bothered looking through every imaginable nature and skill combination. 

I don't think there's any point or any need to be concerned with having one unit kill everything (with some exceptions, such as blade tome mages), so as long as Hana can take care of everything on the enemy side besides blues, then you'll be fine (assuming you have something on your team for blues, and if you don't then that's really your own fault). 

In the first place, my argument was never "Hana is better than Lucina" so much as me taking issue with your statement of "Lucina blows Hana out of the water", though if you wanted to go there, a Brave Sword Hana set has an overall better matchup spread than any of Lucina's sets. 

  Reveal hidden contents

The set I used was +Atk Hana with Brave Sword+, Life and Death, Swordbreaker, Luna, and the Atk +1 seal.

There may be a Lucina set I missed, but I didn't find a combination that had an overall better Win/Loss/Draw ratio. 

And even if there is one, my original point still stands that Hana is not vastly inferior to Lucina as you made her seem, regardless of whether or not that was your intent.

 

 

If the opponent has Vantage active, then you will most likely have Desperation active. As a side note, I find it interesting that Bonfire Vantage Hector can OHKO LaD Hana. This is good to know for me.

 

But as anyone knows, we face AI so if you properly control your units. You shouldn't lose.

Edited May 2, 2017 by Clogon

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Score of 4812:

• Apr 28 2AM PT - #1435
• Apr 28 3PM PT - #1651
• Apr 29 3PM PT - #2099
• Apr 30 3PM PT - #2439
• May 1 3PM PT - #2935
• Final Rank - #2950

 

[Ice Dragon]

1 hour ago, DehNutCase said:

Although, thinking about it, perfect play means that it's pretty much the ceiling that matters, not the floor, meaning it's more a matter of a couple match-ups on the offense versus a assist skill slot and flexibility in skill choices. (Since Hana really wants AS and desperation, too many things can dent her beyond repair to forgo desperation, and too many things are 'un-fightable' to rely on Lucina's 'just run in' method of triggering desperation. Whereas Lucina can forgo desperation entirely to run a breaker-skill if she wished, relying on Falchion and running away to keep her topped, just for example.) Probably around the same, and I apologize if my wording made it seem like Hana is crap.

Hana can forgo Ardent Sacrifice for Escutcheon instead, which also frees up her passive B slot for Swordbreaker instead of Desperation (if you aren't expecting her to fight more than one thing per match, Swordbreaker gives you more options for what that one thing can be; otherwise, Desperation gives you better sustain). There isn't really much she needs an offensive special for if you don't need her to one-round kill blue units and incredibly bulky reds since there isn't really a blue unit that can actually kill her on the counterattack through Escutcheon outside of Effie, Swordbreaker users, and Triangle Adept users.

Basically, Hana has one job and a less flexible build. Lucina has many jobs and a more flexible build, but Lucina doesn't do Hana's job better than Hana can.

Edited May 2, 2017 by Ice Dragon

[Vaximillian]

Arena rewards have been distributed.

4,780 points gave me 2,500 feathers; rank 7,889 gave me 2,000; 0 defence wins gave me 0 feathers; 4,500 total.

I'm going to try Sharena / Lilina / Catria / Soren this week and Sharena / Lilina / Ninian / Soren the week after that.

@MaskedAmpharos recommended G Tomebreaker for him. His A will probably be Fury, his special Iceberg. Is that fine with his vanilla Rexcalibur?