Arena Discussion Thread (inc. Assault)

[MrSmokestack]

18 minutes ago, Arcanite said:

Shut up

Anybody have any teams for Anna? Anything helps!

T̶h̶e̶ ̶b̶e̶n̶c̶h̶

She might only ever kill Nowis most of the time with her Res, but that's not a bad niche given how prevalent she is.

[Locke087]

23 minutes ago, Arcanite said:

Shut up

Anybody have any teams for Anna? Anything helps!

What you got I been using Anna a while, personally mine is: 

1. 5* Lyn +1 (TA 3, Vantage 2 (soon 3), Spur Spd 3, Reciprocal Aid, Galeforce), 
2. 5* Anna (Life and Death 2, Vantage 3, Hone Spd 3, Swap, Astra),
3. 5* Nino (Res+3(still waiting for Fury...), Desp 3, Hone Atk 3, Draw Back, Draconic Aura),
4. 5* Sharena (Dart Blow 3, QR 2, Fort Def 3, Rally Atk, Escutcheon).

I got a deathless Score of 4824 with this team. 

Edited May 2, 2017 by Locke087

[Elieson]

23 minutes ago, Arcanite said:

Shut up

Anybody have any teams for Anna? Anything helps!

I blew up my Anna and would suggest running some sort of Defense support and/or tank, with Swap. As Anna gets weaker, she needs to fly around to safety. Give her Spurs/Hones to let her passively buff after warping if she isn't killing people. I'd run Nowi and/or Sharena and a fast swordie

Edited May 2, 2017 by Elieson

[Arcanite]

2 minutes ago, Locke087 said:

What you got I been using Anna a while, personally mine is: 

1. 5* Lyn +1 (TA 3, Vantage 2 (soon 3), Spur Spd 3, Reciprocal Aid, Galeforce), 
2. 5* Anna (Life and Death 2, Vantage 3, Hone Spd 3, Swap, Astra),
3. 5* Nino (Res+3(still waiting for Fury...), Desp 3, Hone Atk 3, Draw Back, Draconic Aura),
4. 5* Sharena (Dart Blow 3, QR 2, Fort Def 3, Rally Atk, Escutcheon).

I got a deathless Score of 4824 with this team.

Hm

I can actually do something similar to this lol

3 minutes ago, Elieson said:

I'd run Nowi and/or Sharena and a fast swordie

Thanks for the idea

[Elieson]

13 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

T̶h̶e̶ ̶b̶e̶n̶c̶h̶

She might only ever kill Nowis most of the time with her Res, but that's not a bad niche given how prevalent she is.

 

6 minutes ago, Arcanite said:

Hm

I can actually do something similar to this lol

Thanks for the idea

I run:

Sharena/Nowi/Anna/Marth with various builds but even with all 4 at stock, the strat is similar, either buff Anna after she takes a hit or two so that she can Vantage + Proc something that she'd normally not KO in one hit on Vantage, or let her fly around to give support with her innate Spur Res if her HP is too low. Same principle works thanks to Noatun. If she's done her job and camping in Vantage range, then as long as she can support without offering combat, she's valuable.

 

Her defensive capabilities really do suck though. Greens and even Blues harass her pretty hard.

[Pimalai]

Got over 4,3k points today. Easy winning streak with Olivia in the team (she's 4* level 20), but that BST seems to hurt points badly.

Ike, Hector, MRobin & Olivia = easy wins.

Ike, Hector, Effie, Julia = I lost some matches.

Maybe the two armor units make me go too high in tier, thus more difficult enemies; and movement restriction is an issue, even when my playstyle is conservative (I like good positioning and baiting the enemy, then counr-attacking).

[Elieson]

10 minutes ago, Pimalai said:

Got over 4,3k points today. Easy winning streak with Olivia in the team (she's 4* level 20), but that BST seems to hurt points badly.

Ike, Hector, MRobin & Olivia = easy wins.

Ike, Hector, Effie, Julia = I lost some matches.

Maybe the two armor units make me go too high in tier, thus more difficult enemies; and movement restriction is an issue, even when my playstyle is conservative (I like good positioning and baiting the enemy, then counr-attacking).

Do you run Recipricol Aid on your team to keep hector's HP up for counter doubling? I have neither Hec nor Eff but it's what I assume you would do with a team like this

[Pimalai]

24 minutes ago, Elieson said:

Do you run Recipricol Aid on your team to keep hector's HP up for counter doubling? I have neither Hec nor Eff but it's what I assume you would do with a team like this

No, the only healing I run is Julia's Breath of Life (which is marginal but sometimes helps). Hector is Distant Counter/Vantage. Some kinf of healing could be a good idea, yes.

[Taim Meich]

I have to say, being this the first season I have a full 5* team, full with skills and such, it's so fun to run into stacked teams, well thought and put together. In my first 3 battles (I typically don't spend dueling crests but rather use the daily one you get, unless it's the end of the season and I don't have a good score yet), I ran into a team focused on sending a buffed Spring Camilla to destroy the universe, with a dancer and 2 other very competent partners, my first real flier emblem (with two spring camillas), and a third one that was actually rather average. I had a lot of doubts I'd manage to win the first two without deaths, so when I actually did, it felt great.

Now this is some Fire Emblem, and not what I first experienced (I almost uninstalled the game after the first few story chapters when I started).

[Othin]

44 minutes ago, Elieson said:

Do you run Recipricol Aid on your team to keep hector's HP up for counter doubling? I have neither Hec nor Eff but it's what I assume you would do with a team like this

I had Julia use Ardent Sacrifice for that purpose. Only came up like once in the few days she could fit on my team, but it was quite handy when it worked. Thought about using Reciprocal Aid, but my Julia can't actually get Hector's HP back up to Quick Riposte range that way.

[Ice Dragon]

3 hours ago, Fei Mao said:

@Ice Dragon@DehNutCase@MrSmokestack@BANRYU@MaskedAmpharos and anyone else that does heavy analysis here, what are your thoughts on this tier list?

It seems solid and currently has 900+ upvotes on the FEH subreddit, so I'm just curious on what you guys think of it since I like reading differing opinions on stuff.

The one thing that bothers me most about the tier list is just like every goddamn tier list it doesn't indicate whether it is for offense or defense because many units perform extremely differently on offense and defense. I'm going to assume offense because "support" doesn't really work on defense.

The tier list is not consistent at what it considers to be "support". Considering the Litrblade infantry glass cannons are ranked in Tier 2, Spring Camilla should fall squarely into Tier 3 at the lowest due to her absurdly high damage output (71 / 36 neutral offenses with Life and Death 3 and Hone Fliers is not to be trifled with) and the fact that appropriate buff sources (Minerva and Cherche) exist in Tier 2.

Reinhardt clearly should fall in Tier 1 due to his absurd match-ups against most of the game with no support. Olwen could potentially be bumped up to Tier 2 because her match-ups are even better than Reinhardt's, but she absolutely requires Hone Cavalry.

Conversely, I'm a bit suspicious of Effie being in Tier 1. She has great offensive options, but is stuck with 1 movement range. While Pivot allows her to keep up with the rest of the army, she can't both Pivot and attack on the same turn without a Dancer. If Effie is used as an enemy phase counterattacker, she's clearly inferior to Hector because Hector has Quick Riposte 2 on his weapon slot, leaving his passive B slot free for another skill.

Cain should probably be in Tier 4 with Abel and Peri due to his 32 / 32 offenses allowing him to run Hana (35 / 36) and Peri's (33 / 33) Life and Death Brave set with nearly identical success.

Also, these people have clearly never used Sophia before. The only support she needs is a dancer (because she can one-round kill either axes or green tomes, but not both with the same set), which is not unlikely to have in a team. She should at least be placed in Tier 5, and possibly in Tier 4, because she can cover colorless (she one-hit kills all of the common colorless choices except neutral Klein at +10) and one of the green weapon types (Axebreaker and G Tomebreaker guarantee a kill against all members of the corresponding weapon type) without support.

Nor have they actually tried optimizing their lower-tier armor units. The non-Effie, non-Hector armors do not play like Effie and Hector. I think they're where they should be on the tier list, but their explanations are clearly flawed. Beruka, though, who is basically a flying armor, should be at least in Tier 5.

 

I'm also very annoyed that Sheena's explanation mentions Hector's Distant Counter at all because the tier list specifically states SP expense and availability are not to be considered.

 

inconsistent and uninformed/10. Doesn't even deserve a capital letter. Have these people even tried building the lower-tier characters?

[Hilda]

You can flush Defensiv play down the Toilet in this game. The Tierlist consists purely of your Attacking power. Basicly just look at the ATK and SPD number of the unit and you can basicly tell if its high tier or not. Especially SPD is such an important stat that it kinda kills any defensiv play. And if your unit has insane amounts of ATK but low speed, then Brave Weapons do the job for you.

I have tried to build a Defense Team (and was finished) Around Debuffs and high Def chars.
FCorrin: -Atk and -SPD debuff on her attack with windsweep blocking most counterattacks (she also runs fury), C: -Res Debuff to help with her dmg.
Zephial: -Def debuff from his weapon
Azama: wooping 40 Def healer pre buffs or any debuffs from FCorrin on the oppsing team
Julia: Magical Check/Dragon Check to prevent Zephial/FCorring getting killed by magical users.

 

This didnt work, no matter the amount of defense the other Team just needs to run a hight atk+ high speed unit with brave weapons and even your sturdiest defense cant do anything about that, because when they get 4 attacks in the 4. one will be a Special attack usually killing of your unit.

They would need to implement better Defensiv Specials and good Defensiv A-Passives/Passives in general that activate during Enemy Phase (Like the exact opposite of Death Blow just instead of when you are attacking it activates when you are attacked).

It also doesnt help that one of the best defense sources is crippled in this game (healers), They are basicly useless in the Arena and a wasted spot unless you are running Tower or some Mission.

Edited May 2, 2017 by Hilda

[MaskedAmpharos]

4 minutes ago, Hilda said:

You can flush Defensiv play down the Toilet in this game. The Tierlist consists purely of your Attacking power. Basicly just look at the ATK and SPD number of the unit and you can basicly tell if its high tier or not. Especially SPD is such an important stat that it kinda kills any defensiv play. And if your unit has insane amounts of ATK but low speed, then Brave Weapons do the job for you.

I have tried to build a Defense Team (and was finished) Around Debuffs and high Def chars.
FCorrin: -Atk and -SPD debuff on her attack with windsweep blocking most counterattacks (she also runs fury), C: -Res Debuff to help with her dmg.
Zephial: -Def debuff from his weapon
Azama: wooping 40 Def healer pre buffs or any debuffs from FCorrin on the oppsing team
Julia: Magical Check/Dragon Check to prevent Zephial/FCorring getting killed by magical users.

 

This didnt work, no matter the amount of defense the other Team just needs to run a hight atk+ high speed unit with brave weapons and even your sturdiest defense cant do anything about that, because when they get 4 attacks in the 4. one will be a Special attack usually killing of your unit.

From what I could decipher, you're trying to say that defense is worthless in this game. 

I'll certainly agree that the meta is centered around fast and powerful glass cannons like Nino, but I definitely would not say that defensive play in general is unviable.

Or are you trying to say Hector is worthless (because he certainly isn't fast, and he gets almost all of his kills from defending)?

Many of the other high tier characters, like Ephraim for example, focus primarily on being powerful defensively and being able to tank a hit and deal damage back (often via Quick Riposte for a breaker). 

You said "Basicly just look at the ATK and SPD number of the unit and you can basicly tell if its high tier or not. Especially SPD is such an important stat that it kinda kills any defensiv play."

This is blatantly false since it discounts high tier units such as Hector, Nowi, Effie, and even Ike, just to name a few. 

A single glance at any tier list out there would be enough to contradict your statement. 

Just because you aren't a good enough player to properly utilize defensive characters doesn't mean defensive characters are worthless.

[Ice Dragon]

2 minutes ago, Hilda said:

You can flush Defensiv play down the Toilet in this game. The Tierlist consists purely of your Attacking power. Basicly just look at the ATK and SPD number of the unit and you can basicly tell if its high tier or not. Especially SPD is such an important stat that it kinda kills any defensiv play. And if your unit has insane amounts of ATK but low speed, then Brave Weapons do the job for you.

I have tried to build a Defense Team (and was finished) Around Debuffs and high Def chars.
FCorrin: -Atk and -SPD debuff on her attack with windsweep blocking most counterattacks (she also runs fury), C: -Res Debuff to help with her dmg.
Zephial: -Def debuff from his weapon
Azama: wooping 40 Def healer pre buffs or any debuffs from FCorrin on the oppsing team
Julia: Magical Check/Dragon Check to prevent Zephial/FCorring getting killed by magical users.

 

This didnt work, no matter the amount of defense the other Team just needs to run a hight atk+ high speed unit with brave weapons and even your sturdiest defense cant do anything about that, because when they get 4 attacks in the 4. one will be a Special attack usually killing of your unit.

One, there's a difference between a defensive offense team and an arena defense team.

Two, that's hardly a good team either way.

[Thor Odinson]

Man my defense team is surprisingly effective, I put them up for a little and got one, time to put my regular team back now

Anyway this season is basically 3 v 4 for me. uninvested 4*Zephiel's pretty much dead weight and 4* uninvested Hana isn't very useful either outside of killing hector, which ruby sword Olivia deals with just fine. I guess zeph doesn't die in one hit so he's marginally less of a hindrance.

can't wait for the xander season, though. gonna horse emblem that one probably

Edited May 2, 2017 by Thor Odinson

[Hilda]

22 minutes ago, MaskedAmpharos said:

From what I could decipher, you're trying to say that defense is worthless in this game. 

I'll certainly agree that the meta is centered around fast and powerful glass cannons like Nino, but I definitely would not say that defensive play in general is unviable.

Or are you trying to say Hector is worthless (because he certainly isn't fast, and he gets almost all of his kills from defending)?

Many of the other high tier characters, like Ephraim for example, focus primarily on being powerful defensively and being able to tank a hit and deal damage back (often via Quick Riposte for a breaker). 

You said "Basicly just look at the ATK and SPD number of the unit and you can basicly tell if its high tier or not. Especially SPD is such an important stat that it kinda kills any defensiv play."

This is blatantly false since it discounts high tier units such as Hector, Nowi, Effie, and even Ike, just to name a few. 

A single glance at any tier list out there would be enough to contradict your statement. 

Just because you aren't a good enough player to properly utilize defensive characters doesn't mean defensive characters are worthless.

1. I am not talking about Arena Defense Team

2. Hector Nowi and Ike have Counter Weapons/Skills that allow them to counter at any range they are attacked. Which covers some of their weakpoints. Effy can cover her weakpoint (SPD) with wary fighter and brave lance (also she is a bit squishy for a tank). Lastly Ephraim barely made it to high tier and that only because of his moderate Atk stat and his niche Weapon/built allowing him to give 3 buffs to close allies, his sister Eirika made it higher on the tierlist, even tough she has much lower Attack then him. Why? well she has 10 more SPD and the same niche Weapon.

Lets look at Sheena, she has fantastic high def and high res. Built a defensiv playing Team (not Arena Defense Team) around her and tell me how your Arena Adventure went.

 

@Ice Dragon: I am really eager to try a defensiv Team in the Arena, so if you have any suggestion on the Team composition and the skills they should run you are welcomed to share them. I am looking for a built that can take alot of hits, wittle the Enemy slowly down without any Close/Distant Counter Skill as an A-Slot.

[MaskedAmpharos]

@Hilda "I'm not talking about an Arena Defense team" 

I'm not either. 

I'm referring specifically to playing with defensive characters on offense. 

And it really doesn't matter why they're high tier (whether it be Distant Counter or Wary Fighter or whatever else). The point is that they're there. 

In fact, skills like Distant Counter and Wary Fighter that help to make defensive characters viable in the first place doesn't really change the fact that they're viable, which is my entire point. 

Edited May 2, 2017 by MaskedAmpharos

[Elieson]

1 hour ago, Othin said:

I had Julia use Ardent Sacrifice for that purpose. Only came up like once in the few days she could fit on my team, but it was quite handy when it worked. Thought about using Reciprocal Aid, but my Julia can't actually get Hector's HP back up to Quick Riposte range that way.

Oh valid point, it's raw #s based and julia's at best seeing like 42 Hp to hec's mandatory QR threshold of what, 44 or something

[Hilda]

18 minutes ago, MaskedAmpharos said:

@Hilda "I'm not talking about an Arena Defense team" 

I'm not either. 

I'm referring specifically to playing with defensive characters on offense. 

And it really doesn't matter why they're high tier (whether it be Distant Counter or Wary Fighter or whatever else). The point is that they're there. 

In any case, the fact that skills like Distant Counter and Wary Fighter exist to make defensive characters viable in the first place doesn't really change the fact that they're viable, which is my entire point. 

I should rephrase: They can cover one of their weak Offensiv Oriented Stats with a Weapon/or Skill. (Effy with Brave Lances covering her low SPD) makeing them excellent attackers.
You cant do that with Units that have low atk and low spd but massive amounts of def and res. No matter how you built them, they will get overwhelmed by the amount they get doubled and the special skill they eat in their face. There is a reason why basicly all of the low tier chars suffer from this dilemma.

I would agree with you on Distant Counter and Wary Fighter if: 1. Wary Fighter wasnt Tank exclusiv Skill and 2. Distant Counter/Close Counter was more available as a skill to inherit. Hence why i said there need to be more Passives/Skills made available to make Defensiv play really shine.

Edited May 2, 2017 by Hilda

[Othin]

7 minutes ago, Elieson said:

Oh valid point, it's raw #s based and julia's at best seeing like 42 Hp to hec's mandatory QR threshold of what, 44 or something

Yeah, my Hector has 55 HP (with the HP +3 seal) so his QR threshold is 44 while my Julia's max HP is 38.

With +HP Julia and -HP Hector, though, she has 41 HP and he has 49 so it'd work. Seals and skills and merges could also be a way to make that happen: it's definitely possible for some Julia/Hector combinations, just not most.

[Elieson]

Ya, that's what I figured. It's not optimal, but it's feasible depending on natures & SI. [HP+5 Julia meta now, NOW]

[MrSmokestack]

9 minutes ago, Hilda said:

I should rephrase: They can cover one of their weak Offensiv Oriented Stats with a Weapon/or Skill. (Effy with Brave Lances covering her low SPD) makeing them excellent attackers.
You cant do that with Units that have low atk and low spd but massive amounts of def and res. No matter how you built them, they will get overwhelmed by the amount they get doubled and the special skill they eat in their face. There is a reason why basicly all of the low tier chars suffer from this dilemma.

Defensive characters have quite a few options to work with, and I'm not singling out armored units like Effie and Zephiel. Quick Riposte grants them artificial doubles, as do relevant weaponbreakers, and combined with a special kill like Bonfire or Glacies can return for large amounts of burst damage, especially if Killer+ is their weapon of choice.

B skills in general offer a great deal of defensive abilities like Vantage, and Triangle Adept / Gem weapons can be used to inflate a unit's bulk against opposing colors. There are a lot more options to make defensive characters outside of Distant Counter or Wary Fighter viable.

[MaskedAmpharos]

21 minutes ago, Hilda said:

I should rephrase: They can cover one of their weak Offensiv Oriented Stats with a Weapon/or Skill. (Effy with Brave Lances covering her low SPD) makeing them excellent attackers.
You cant do that with Units that have low atk and low spd but massive amounts of def and res. No matter how you built them, they will get overwhelmed by the amount they get doubled and the special skill they eat in their face. There is a reason why basicly all of the low tier chars suffer from this dilemma.

I would agree with you on Distant Counter and Wary Fighter if: 1. Wary Fighter wasnt Tank exclusiv Skill and 2. Distant Counter/Close Counter was more available as a skill to inherit. Hence why i said there need to be more Passives/Skills made available to make Defensiv play really shine.

Units with low attack and speed but massive bulk can pull off other sets, such as killer lance + QR + bonfire for large bursts of damage.

Also, units with high speed but low attack, like Fir or Caeda, aren't particularly good either. 

The point I'm trying to make is that speed is not as omnipotent as you make it sound, nor are slow and defensive characters as bad as you say they are.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Honestly the list of low tier in this game can be summed up into:

- Unit with low attack

- Unit that have ok chasis that happen to be outclassed

- Balanced stats that almost never works

- Horse units that is much lower than they should be, just because they are on a horse. Such is a fair and balanced world we live in

- Henry

 

 

and then theres unit with unnecesarily high hp, but pretty sure its covered already

Edited May 2, 2017 by JSND

[Clogon]

49 minutes ago, Hilda said:

I would agree with you on Distant Counter and Wary Fighter if: 1. Wary Fighter wasnt Tank exclusiv Skill and 2. Distant Counter/Close Counter was more available as a skill to inherit. Hence why i said there need to be more Passives/Skills made available to make Defensiv play really shine.

Availability should never be taken into account when discussing playstyles. It does not affect how the team functions just because they are rarer.

M!Robin has both mediocre offensive stats but the highest physical Def of any B Mage. Give him TA and he tanks Swords and Colourless like a boss. The same applies for Sophia and she does it even better since she has higher ATK to get more 1shots and her Res allows her to tank Mages G Mages better than M!Robin can tank R Mages.

 

Defensive teams can also greatly take advantage of stacking Spurs/Wards/Goads. As positioning them close together is more natural since they aren't running off doing Gorilla warfare picking off separated enemies one by one.

 

Sheena is a bad unit not because she is defensive but because her stats are too balanced. She has no specialty. Even without Distant Counter, Hector is a better unit sacrificing Res for more HP and ATK. The good thing about her is that you can give her Distant Counter + QR + Emerald Axe and she will take no damage from B Mages and kill them on return.

 

Spd means nothing when you take 0 damage and can still double thanks to QR. It even helps them charge their specials more than a high speed unit since every round consists of 4 attacks 2 from the enemy and 2 from you.