Do FE games encourage you to use whoever you like to use?

[bethany81707]

45 minutes ago, Slumber said:

This would be a great skill for the early game premmie to have right off the bat.

I actually had a story concept that gave the early game prepromote bows and Paragon, which probably helps. I'm using Klein to train Heroes units using the same concept.

Though, as pointed out, Elincia comes with False Swipe at the worst possible time.

[Slumber]

36 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

The skill does exist and is in Radiant Dawn even, it's just not available on that particular map...

I was thinking more like an active skill that you could proc, like Gamble or something, rather than one that always activated when you got an ability down to 1 HP. I'm aware Mercy is a thing.

Edited May 14, 2017 by Slumber

[Shadow Mir]

55 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

The skill does exist and is in Radiant Dawn even, it's just not available on that particular map...

 

Um, no offence intended here, but making sure the LEA survive the map is absolutely trivial unless you brought a very weak team on Ike's route. As I said, there are many safe spaces on the map. It's getting them exp that takes effort.

Fortune exists, though you have to choose between that and Paragon. I no longer recall which I used. Probably Paragon since it's not terribly hard to weaken enemies for her to finish off. She's accurate at least, which is more than I can say for some underlevelled units you may wish to level, in RD and other games.

Being locked to one character is obviously no bueno, as is preventing said character from killing anything at all...

Their being forced deployment is pretty much the most frustrating thing about that map, as I see it - it's just "Why in the seven hells did they force three units that the player hasn't even had the chance to use since part 1 AND NOT BOTHER TO AUTOLEVEL THEM!?! To troll us?". And that's just awful. (To be fair, Muarim can hold his own, which is more than can be said of the other two)

Which would matter if, you know, she did more than tickle the enemy. Which she doesn't (25 atk ain't getting her anywhere fast at this point...).

Edited May 14, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Interdimensional Observer]

6 hours ago, phineas81707 said:

I actually had a story concept that gave the early game prepromote bows and Paragon, which probably helps. I'm using Klein to train Heroes units using the same concept.

There is actually a unit in Tear Ring Saga called Raquel who has awesome bases, nice skills (including Paragon) and exclusively uses Bows. However, she cannot kill humans, she will always leave them at 1HP (she can kill monsters though, and through an event with her brother Lucas can, at a price, come to kill humans late in the game).

On the RD training discussion, you can buy the atk-halving command skill Flourish in 3-3 for 3000G. Not the most ideal of skills for training weaklings though.

[Dark Holy Elf]

8 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Which would matter if, you know, she did more than tickle the enemy. Which she doesn't (25 atk ain't getting her anywhere fast at this point...).

25 atk breaks defence on everything except generals and some halberdiers at that point, and one Energy Drop makes it 29 (which I didn't use, for the record, but one easily could). You can also give her Bonus Exp before the fight starts. Again, I'm not claiming levelling her is anywhere close to optimal, but you seem insistent on making it sound much harder than it actually is for some reason. The rest of your army has a wide array of weapon options which can ensure that a character is lowered to a specific HP threshold (procs/crits aside) quite easily. If a player WANTS to level Vika, they absolutely can and it's not something that requires one to be a master FE player, just one who is willing to play favourites.

 

Re your second paragraph, FE has a history of forcing awful units, because most new units are forced on their join map (exceptions like Myrrh and Fiona are relatively rare), and of course, some units are awful at base by design because some players enjoy the challenge of leveling such units up. Just be glad the LEA don't join on a fog of war map, or far away from the player units. They're really nowhere near the worst example of this in the series.

[Shadow Mir]

10 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

On the RD training discussion, you can buy the atk-halving command skill Flourish in 3-3 for 3000G. Not the most ideal of skills for training weaklings though.

To say Flourish isn't the most ideal skill for training weaklings is quite the understatement - it cuts your attack in half before applying defence, resulting in next to no damage against most enemies.

7 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

25 atk breaks defence on everything except generals and some halberdiers at that point, and one Energy Drop makes it 29 (which I didn't use, for the record, but one easily could). You can also give her Bonus Exp before the fight starts. Again, I'm not claiming levelling her is anywhere close to optimal, but you seem insistent on making it sound much harder than it actually is for some reason. The rest of your army has a wide array of weapon options which can ensure that a character is lowered to a specific HP threshold (procs/crits aside) quite easily. If a player WANTS to level Vika, they absolutely can and it's not something that requires one to be a master FE player, just one who is willing to play favourites.

 

Re your second paragraph, FE has a history of forcing awful units, because most new units are forced on their join map (exceptions like Myrrh and Fiona are relatively rare), and of course, some units are awful at base by design because some players enjoy the challenge of leveling such units up. Just be glad the LEA don't join on a fog of war map, or far away from the player units. They're really nowhere near the worst example of this in the series.

There is a 90% chance you glossed over or outright ignored my point about BEXP... Because (1) it only gives 3 stats, not to mention that it's pretty likely she'd get Hp/Luck/1 other stat, which is about as unhelpful a level as a laguz can get, and (2) Vika's Strength growth is her second lowest growth. Second, I don't subscribe to this line of thought where laguz getting double the effect from stat boosters makes them better choices for them for reasons already mentioned. Also, playing favorites is one thing, but the enemy's power level relative to theirs practically mandates the patience of a saint when trying to raise Tormod or Vika, especially the latter. 

Far as I'm concerned, it's pretty much inexcusable to have a unit go unplayable for most of the game, and have them come back when endgame's right around the corner... at the same power level when they were last playable.

Edited May 14, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Tolvir]

Kind of, ultimately you can use whoever you want. All characters are at least usable, but there is a difference between usable and useful. Fiona can be useable in RD if you really wanted to use her, but every other Cav except maybe Astrid outclass Fiona. So in a way you are hurting your overall effectiveness by using her. Doesnt mean you cant though, I have completed playthroughs on max difficulty with characters that arent the best. I always use Leonardo over Shinon because I cant stand Shinon as a character.

So I wouldnt say that it encourages you to do so, its more that it lets you do so. Even if that option is sometimes the worst of all the options.

Edited May 15, 2017 by Tolvir

[Dark Holy Elf]

2 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Second, I don't subscribe to this line of thought where laguz getting double the effect from stat boosters makes them better choices for them for reasons already mentioned.

*holds head in hands* We aren't talking about whether Vika is a better choice for stat boosters than anyone else. We're talking about "can we use Vika if she is one of your favourites", at which point she benefits tremendously from being getting Energy Drops.

2 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Also, playing favorites is one thing, but the enemy's power level relative to theirs practically mandates the patience of a saint when trying to raise Tormod or Vika, especially the latter. 

It really doesn't. Here's the super-complicated method to level Vika:

(a) Give Vika a few stat boosters and Paragon:

(b) Have Vika use Olivi Grass

(c) Lower enemies to the point where Vika can kill them, then have her finish them. Have her canto to safety if necessary.

Repeat (b) and (c) as many times as you wish. Do note that Vika gains 100 exp from her couple kills. This is not that difficult; a child could figure this out and execute this plan. She is not even the hardest unit to raise this way in Radiant Dawn itself as someone who has raised literally every hard-to-raise unit in this game for the heck of it. (I may have played RD a few too many times.) Now if DO have a patience of a saint, there are things you can do to make levelling her even easier, such as grinding her strike rank in Part 1.

 

3 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Far as I'm concerned, it's pretty much inexcusable to have a unit go unplayable for most of the game, and have them come back when endgame's right around the corner... at the same power level when they were last playable.

Your feelings about the lack of auto-levelling are valid and tbqh I agree. They also are not in any way relevant to the question of "can one use Vika if they really want to".

[Shadow Mir]

3 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

It really doesn't. Here's the super-complicated method to level Vika:

(a) Give Vika a few stat boosters and Paragon:

(b) Have Vika use Olivi Grass

(c) Lower enemies to the point where Vika can kill them, then have her finish them. Have her canto to safety if necessary.

Repeat (b) and (c) as many times as you wish. Do note that Vika gains 100 exp from her couple kills. This is not that difficult; a child could figure this out and execute this plan. She is not even the hardest unit to raise this way in Radiant Dawn itself as someone who has raised literally every hard-to-raise unit in this game for the heck of it. (I may have played RD a few too many times.) Now if DO have a patience of a saint, there are things you can do to make levelling her even easier, such as grinding her strike rank in Part 1.

 

Your feelings about the lack of auto-levelling are valid and tbqh I agree. They also are not in any way relevant to the question of "can one use Vika if they really want to".

(A) You mean the Paragon that she doesn't have the capacity to equip? Because she has 15 capacity taken up by Shove and Canto.

(B) *facepalms* You do realize that losing player phases to olivi grass isn't going to make catching her up much easier?

(C) Good luck with that, considering she faces crit chances from everything and their grandma on the map. Especially with no False Swipe analogue.

[bethany81707]

1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

(A) You mean the Paragon that she doesn't have the capacity to equip? Because she has 15 capacity taken up by Shove and Canto.

(B) *facepalms* You do realize that losing player phases to olivi grass isn't going to make catching her up much easier?

(C) Good luck with that, considering she faces crit chances from everything and their grandma on the map. Especially with no False Swipe analogue.

No, I've seen an LP that's trained her. It had a vote for endgame, so Vika didn't get there, but she came close.

https://lparchive.org/Fire-Emblem-Radiant-Dawn/Update 57/

https://lparchive.org/Fire-Emblem-Radiant-Dawn/Update 58/

First link is the set-up, second is the actual map where Vika gets training.

[Baldrick]

1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

(A) You mean the Paragon that she doesn't have the capacity to equip? Because she has 15 capacity taken up by Shove and Canto.

(B) *facepalms* You do realize that losing player phases to olivi grass isn't going to make catching her up much easier?

(C) Good luck with that, considering she faces crit chances from everything and their grandma on the map. Especially with no False Swipe analogue.

Vika can equip Paragon at level 15.

Compared to setting up a whole bunch of kills for her, grassing up is no effort.

 

[Shadow Mir]

20 hours ago, phineas81707 said:

No, I've seen an LP that's trained her. It had a vote for endgame, so Vika didn't get there, but she came close.

https://lparchive.org/Fire-Emblem-Radiant-Dawn/Update 57/

https://lparchive.org/Fire-Emblem-Radiant-Dawn/Update 58/

First link is the set-up, second is the actual map where Vika gets training.

 

20 hours ago, Baldrick said:

Vika can equip Paragon at level 15.

Compared to setting up a whole bunch of kills for her, grassing up is no effort.

Okay then. Not that it's much help unless, you know, she can actually KILL SOMETHING, which I'm not seeing happening with 25 attack unless you REALLY go out of your way for her sake. . .

It's still a wasted turn, which is a bad thing when trying to salvage her is hellish enough as is. . .

Edited May 16, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[bethany81707]

5 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Okay then. Not that it's much help unless, you know, she can actually KILL SOMETHING, which I'm not seeing happening with 25 attack unless you REALLY go out of your way for her sake. . .

It's still a wasted turn, which is a bad thing when trying to salvage her is hellish enough as is. . .

Killstealing and Laguz Gem.

[Shadow Mir]

5 minutes ago, phineas81707 said:

Killstealing and Laguz Gem.

Ugh...  I already stated the problem with the first one, which is that Vika explodes into a mess that you'll be spending a while looking for the remains of if she gets critted (because pretty much everything has boosted crit in one manner or another). Which basically means you HAVE to weaken them to a point where she can finish with one hit.

Edited May 16, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[bethany81707]

Just now, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Ugh...  I already stated the problem with the first one, which is, against most enemies, Vika explodes into a mess that you'll be spending a while looking for the remains of if she gets critted. Which basically means you HAVE to weaken them to a point where she can finish with one hit.

Didn't bother Fedule. That's what he wound up doing.

Just because something has a 1% chance of happening doesn't mean it's impossible.

[Shadow Mir]

38 minutes ago, phineas81707 said:

Didn't bother Fedule. That's what he wound up doing.

Just because something has a 1% chance of happening doesn't mean it's impossible.

And yet he warns that you don't want to push your luck with enemy crits - something that I agree with 100%. And the fact I have to habitually risk autolosing just to feed Vika kills is a HUGE red flag.

[bethany81707]

2 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

And yet he warns that you don't want to push your luck with enemy crits - something that I agree with 100%. And the fact I have to habitually risk autolosing just to feed Vika kills is a HUGE red flag.

That's using Ests, especially 1-rangers, in a nutshell. Knoll's got a similar problem, and don't even get me started on Ewan.

[Shadow Mir]

10 minutes ago, phineas81707 said:

That's using Ests, especially 1-rangers, in a nutshell. Knoll's got a similar problem, and don't even get me started on Ewan.

First off, "Est" is not an archetype as far as I'm concerned, but a buzzword for underleveled units. Second, those two you mentioned don't even compare - they don't always have to eat counters, and Sacred Stones enemies are at a lower power level than those of Radiant Dawn.

[bethany81707]

51 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

First off, "Est" is not an archetype as far as I'm concerned, but a buzzword for underleveled units. Second, those two you mentioned don't even compare - they don't always have to eat counters, and Sacred Stones enemies are at a lower power level than those of Radiant Dawn.

Vika is more of an Est than Knoll or Ewan (FE8) and gives competition to Pelleas and Kurth (FE10).

Regardless of their actual victory combat, Knoll and Ewan also want to deal the final blow to something weak and make themselves scarce on Enemy Phase. The fact they do so from range is irrelevant.

The number of losses I've had dealing with FE8 tells me anyone complaining the difficulty is nonexistent is just complacent.

[Shadow Mir]

7 minutes ago, phineas81707 said:

Vika is more of an Est than Knoll or Ewan (FE8) and gives competition to Pelleas and Kurth (FE10).

Regardless of their actual victory combat, Knoll and Ewan also want to deal the final blow to something weak and make themselves scarce on Enemy Phase. The fact they do so from range is irrelevant.

The number of losses I've had dealing with FE8 tells me anyone complaining the difficulty is nonexistent is just complacent.

Again, I don't take the use of "Est" seriously because when was the last game to have had an "Est", discounting remakes??? Also, your comparison can be summed up as apples and oranges.

[ping]

35 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Again, I don't take the use of "Est" seriously because when was the last game to have had an "Est", discounting remakes??? Also, your comparison can be summed up as apples and oranges.

What exactly are you trying to prove at this point, anyway? This whole discussion started about the question whether or not it is possible to train Vika into someone who can actually stand on her own two feet (metaphorically speaking, of course) and @Dark Holy Elf in his first post about that topic even explicitly stated that it's possible, but neither optimal or efficient play by any means. If you're trying to prove that it's impossible to train her up, the linked LP has already proven you wrong.

I think everyone gets at this point that you hate to take any any sub-100% chances, but please accept that many other FE player do in fact like to play a bit faster at the cost of reliability, at least to a certain degree. You could really stop acting so goddamn condescending towards everyone who doesn't follow your preferred playstyle; it makes discussions really frustrating if the other party constantly expresses how little they think about your stance.

Anyway, the whole question whether or not a character is useable is kinda besides the point. The original question was if the games encourage the player to use any characters other than a select few, and in Vika's case the answer would be "not really" because (again) nobody argues that training her up is an easy task and most people will agree that a trained-up Vika will still be overshadowed by the royals and the stronger Beorc units. If you're just concerned with numbers, every FE game has some characters that are just plain worse than other options and the question is not if, but how much they increase the game's difficulty if you choose to pick them anyway. Est-y characters might reward you with some additional green numbers on the stat screen, but none of them really make a difference big enough to justify the investment you have to make to get them to that point - again, as long as you're only concerned with numbers. The only real rewards are additional supports (if they're present in the game) and the warm fuzzy feeling you get when the little girl in the orange armour and not the big musclehead gets to slay the big scary dragon.

[Shadow Mir]

9 hours ago, ping said:

What exactly are you trying to prove at this point, anyway? This whole discussion started about the question whether or not it is possible to train Vika into someone who can actually stand on her own two feet (metaphorically speaking, of course) and @Dark Holy Elf in his first post about that topic even explicitly stated that it's possible, but neither optimal or efficient play by any means. If you're trying to prove that it's impossible to train her up, the linked LP has already proven you wrong.

I think everyone gets at this point that you hate to take any any sub-100% chances, but please accept that many other FE player do in fact like to play a bit faster at the cost of reliability, at least to a certain degree. You could really stop acting so goddamn condescending towards everyone who doesn't follow your preferred playstyle; it makes discussions really frustrating if the other party constantly expresses how little they think about your stance.

Anyway, the whole question whether or not a character is useable is kinda besides the point. The original question was if the games encourage the player to use any characters other than a select few, and in Vika's case the answer would be "not really" because (again) nobody argues that training her up is an easy task and most people will agree that a trained-up Vika will still be overshadowed by the royals and the stronger Beorc units. If you're just concerned with numbers, every FE game has some characters that are just plain worse than other options and the question is not if, but how much they increase the game's difficulty if you choose to pick them anyway. Est-y characters might reward you with some additional green numbers on the stat screen, but none of them really make a difference big enough to justify the investment you have to make to get them to that point - again, as long as you're only concerned with numbers. The only real rewards are additional supports (if they're present in the game) and the warm fuzzy feeling you get when the little girl in the orange armour and not the big musclehead gets to slay the big scary dragon.

The issue I had with phineas's "comparison" is that it made negative sense - for one, Vika's a melee fighter, and one who needs to transform first at that, whereas Knoll and Ewan are mages. It's painfully obvious who'd be easier to work with. That's ignoring that resistance tends to be lower than defense for most enemy types. Second, fundamental differences in their respective games - if I wanted to use Knoll or Ewan, I could just use skirmishes or the tower to grind until I felt they were ready. Vika's sorry outta luck in that regard - the closest thing to grinding in Radiant Dawn is the chapter right before endgame... which she doesn't get to participate in. Also, Sacred Stones doesn't throw oodles of boosted crit enemies at you like Radiant Dawn does. Now, granted, she isn't unusable or unsalvageable, but trying to salvage her is rather arduous, to say the least, considering that she does barely any damage to most enemies, and regularly faces crit chances unless you give her Fortune, of which you only get two of in the game, one of which might've been sold because the DB has money issues, and the other comes on a character you don't get until endgame (Dark Holy Elf did mention Fortune, but failed to mention the issue with its availability).

[ping]

Okay, despite repeating myself: What point are you trying to make? If it's that Vika is hard and/or tedious to train with not too amazing payoff, you're striking at air because as far as I can tell, nobody argues otherwise. If your point is that Vika is unusable on normal and hard difficulty, you're running against a brick wall because I don't see any reason to doubt Dark Holy Elf and there is proof in form of a screenshot LP that it's possible to get her enough XP and weapon XP to do just fine in the endgame. And as far as I can tell by skimming the LP, Fedule only took risks at the start of the map (i.e. fighting enemies who might crit Vika) and found completely safe, if time-consuming, to train her up.

[bethany81707]

@Levant Mir Celestia The point of the comparison is mostly when it comes to combat- namely, anyone who's underlevelled must risk combat. When Vika actually fights, you use her in a similar way, regardless of what else goes on around there. If Sacred Stones is too easy for you, consider Nino or Elinicia instead. Or even Kurthnaga and Pelleas.

[Emeraldfox]

I always use who I like, so I say yes.