What is your unpopular Fire Emblem opinion?

[Alastor15243]

39 minutes ago, Maof06 said:

• Permadeath holds back the games writing.

Not really, it's just that none of the writers want to put in the effort that FE9 did to make story-relevant characters killable. FE9's early game handily demonstrates that it's possible. And besides, most of the story-relevant characters just get crippled anyway.

Also... getting rid of permadeath would be catastrophic for the gameplay. Whatever came as a result of getting rid of classic mode would not remotely resemble Fire Emblem anymore, mark my words.

Edited August 15, 2020 by Alastor15243

[NaotoUzumaki]

Maof06 : its the EXACT opposite by removing permadeath you make more selling opportunities but Remove Strategy and weight of your mistake. It DOESNT destroy the Narrative since if a character dies the writer HAS LESS CHARACTER THEREBY LESS PROBLEMS WITH THE NARATIVE. Here is an example of poor story in 3Houses. Edelgard without her axe in the prologue against Kostas forcing Byleth to put Herself in harm’s way to learn Divine Pulse. Here’s how to fix the narative problem you make Edelgard axe stuck in one of Kostas Grunt while her back is turned and Kostas trows his hand axe at the back of Edelgard head and that still put and forces Byleth to get in harm’s way but justify the Divine Pulse Without making Anyone looking like Complete Idiots

[AnonymousSpeed]

I'm just saying, a game with 12 characters you know will be there is likely to have a better plot than a shotgun blast of characters.

Having a good story is already hard enough, Fire Emblem suffers from the problem of being unable to know what context things are happening in.

Thankfully it's fun to play.

[Whisky]

21 minutes ago, NaotoUzumaki said:

Maof06 : its the EXACT opposite by removing permadeath you make more selling opportunities but Remove Strategy and weight of your mistake. It DOESNT destroy the Narrative since if a character dies the writer HAS LESS CHARACTER THEREBY LESS PROBLEMS WITH THE NARATIVE. Here is an example of poor story in 3Houses. Edelgard without her axe in the prologue against Kostas forcing Byleth to put Herself in harm’s way to learn Divine Pulse. Here’s how to fix the narative problem you make Edelgard axe stuck in one of Kostas Grunt while her back is turned and Kostas trows his hand axe at the back of Edelgard head and that still put and forces Byleth to get in harm’s way but justify the Divine Pulse Without making Anyone looking like Complete Idiots

Oh wow. That's actually a huge improvement. I wasn't expecting that. That scene has always bothered me from the first time I saw it.

[GlitchWarrior]

Permadeath is what makes Fire Emblem... well, Fire Emblem. I always hated how, instead of being fair, Three Houses built its entire game around abusing Divine Pulse. I guess Casual Mode is a good entry point, but it's not the full experience. Again, I have to hearken back to Chaz's video on the topic: Permadeath lost all meaning when everyone has to be built from the ground up- which, really, started around Awakening. The cast is so frontloaded that if someone dies you can't replace them easily (unless there's a paralogue somewhere you haven't played yet). I still love Awakening... but... geez, it started the unhappy trend of everyone being growth units.

[Ottservia]

Honestly if IS is going to keep permadeath around just make it a purely gameplay thing and have it not mentioned or even brought in the story at all. Permadeath hinders the storytelling more often than not so the easy workaround is just to not acknowledge it within the context of the story at all

[GlitchWarrior]

That... does raise a valid point. They try to make the fact that people could easily die as much of a plot point as the rest of the story. Either make it a fair deal in the narrative (like, POR-levels) or only bring it up in the tutorial.

[NaotoUzumaki]

Exactly the Inty Problem is that try solution without solving the actual problem. The avatar is a PRIME EXAMPLE of such. It went for Kris stealing the show to Robin being a generic strategist to Corrin where the world building existed because they existed and Byleth which is the same but from a more discreet angle. They tried to do too much without fixing the main establish problems. All of 3houses problems in its story/execution/DLC came from rushing thing the DLC wave 3 with the Sauna and the pets WAS SUPPOSED TO BE IN THE MAIN GAME. They said it in a devloper interview. If they took the time to polish it more it would have been an even greater game and it’s already a great one. But they rushed their development cycle from the 3ds when they knew it would be overshadowed soon so they remade gaiden.they switch to the NX and announced the game on the switch when the switch launched in March 2017. In order to create something good IT TAKES TIME AND THEY RUSHED IT. The game box and trailer said ‘’ Your student hold snd shape the Future ‘’ and since awakening they made the avatar Customizable in physical appearance yet on the switch they didn’t. The 3ds was a very hard platform to create game for and they had cutscenes that showed the Avatar/chosen gender. So they rushed their product. Also from a Japanese perspective an Avatar is like Joker from P5 but the rest of the world it’s like D&D

[Jotari]

Put me in the camp of "Permadeath limiting story telling means the tying hard enough." So long as you keep a good central core of characters who retreat rather than die, you can easily make a story as rich as any other (though I would like it to show on their portraits and have some slight references to how these characters are now too mortally injured to fight again). Especially if most of the plot relevant characters are important people in universe who don't even join your army until near the end.

[lenticular]

Working around the possibility of permadeath is certainly possible, but it's also a lot of work. Absolutely it is possible to write five, ten, twenty versions of a scene that vary depending on who is alive at that point, but games have budgets and they have deadlines, and the extra resources spent writing (and coding, translating, voice acting, etc.) all the extra versions are resources that aren't being spent elsewhere. Or consider pre-rendered anime-style cut-scenes. These pretty much inevitably only feature characters who are guaranteed to be alive, because can you imagine how much of a nightmare it would be to make multiple different versions of a cutscene based on who is an isn't alive? If there was no possibility for permadeath then that would open up more options and possibilities for cutscenes.

Having a few important characters who can't actually die but instead are maimed and retreat also comes with problems of its own. To start with, it feels very contrived. There's often no particular reason why some characters should live while some die. Are they supposed to be more prudent and know when they are beaten? Are they supposed to be tougher and able to survive? How come a character like Reyson who is both hot-headed and fragile manages to survive a lethal blow? Obviously, its because he still has a role in the story, not for any logical in-world reason. This makes actual for-real death feel arbitrary and unfair. The gameplay impact is the same either way, you can no longer use that unit, but the storyline impact is vastly different.

Having a small group of important characters also automatically makes everyone else less important by comparison. If the game says "hey, these are the people you should be caring about, there's no reason to care about these other idiots", then I'm probably not going to care much about the other idiots. If some units get little to no screentime, no time to shine, and hardly any character development, then I'm not going to get invested in them. From the perspective of pure gameplay mechanics, this is fine. I don't need an emotional connection with my pieces to play chess, for instance. But from a storytelling perspective, it's not good.

Honestly, I'm torn. I do think that getting rid of permadeath would allow for better storytelling, but I also believe that it would make for worse gameplay. I'm generally a story-first kind of person, but I'm still not sure that it's a trade-off that I'd want to make. Or at least, I wouldn't want them to remove permadeath without replacing it with something else. I'd be interested in seeing a smaller-scale experimental Fire Emblem that played around with new ideas, sort of like Chimera Squad did for X-Com. For anyone who isn't aware: Chimera Squad is a smaller X-com game, considerably shorter than the main series games but at a proportionately lower price point, and it drastically changed up a lot of core mechanics. For instance, it completely removed permadeath, but also changed things so that any character death was a failure state and a game over. I'd definitely be excited to play a Fire Emblem equivalent of something like that. Even if it didn't work out all that well, I think it would be interesting to try.

[Venger_06]

22 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Not really, it's just that none of the writers want to put in the effort that FE9 did to make story-relevant characters killable. FE9's early game handily demonstrates that it's possible. And besides, most of the story-relevant characters just get crippled anyway.

I didn't play PoR too much (only up to chapter 10), but wasn't Ike's father the only person to die in the early game? If so, he wasn't a playable character to begin with.

 

22 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Also... getting rid of permadeath would be catastrophic for the gameplay. Whatever came as a result of getting rid of classic mode would not remotely resemble Fire Emblem anymore, mark my words.

There are other ways to work around this issue, but if it happens and you want challenge, you can simply choose to not use the unit that died anymore.

 

20 hours ago, NaotoUzumaki said:

the writer HAS LESS CHARACTER THEREBY LESS PROBLEMS WITH THE NARATIVE.

This is not true, because the story is basically the same whether the characters being alive or not.  My point is that the characters could be more impactful to the narrative, but they're not, because the writers cannot afford to make them important parts of the story if they can die before that. Take Three Houses as an example, you can kill all of the students and the route would stay the same, with only Byleth, the Lord and maybe their retainer really mattering in the story.

 

12 hours ago, lenticular said:

Working around the possibility of permadeath is certainly possible, but it's also a lot of work. Absolutely it is possible to write five, ten, twenty versions of a scene that vary depending on who is alive at that point, but games have budgets and they have deadlines, and the extra resources spent writing (and coding, translating, voice acting, etc.) all the extra versions are resources that aren't being spent elsewhere. Or consider pre-rendered anime-style cut-scenes. These pretty much inevitably only feature characters who are guaranteed to be alive, because can you imagine how much of a nightmare it would be to make multiple different versions of a cutscene based on who is an isn't alive? If there was no possibility for permadeath then that would open up more options and possibilities for cutscenes.

You took the words out of my mouth, thanks.

Edited August 15, 2020 by Maof06

[Whisky]

I don’t understand this one. When do stories ever revolve around dozens of characters anyway? Most stories focus on a few main characters and then have side characters that are less involved in the story. Removing permadeath from FE would make it like other RPGs that already don’t have permadeath. Most RPGs’ stories only revolve around a few main characters and any other characters are just side characters that have limited involvement in the plot. Shining Force doesn’t have permadeath but most of its characters are just side characters like in FE.

But then some FE games do involve their side characters more in the story than others. Sacred Stones involves quite a few of its characters in the plot despite having permadeath, probably more so than Shining Force despite that not having permadeath. In FE6, you can meet Lott and Wade’s family in the Western Isles. That’s probably more story relevance than most characters get in Shining Force.

But for the most part, characters in FE are part of a small army fighting in a war. What relevance could most characters have in the overall plot? Do you just want more dialogue from them, maybe more paralogues, or other extra things if you still have certain characters alive at certain points? I’m all for involving the side characters in more ways. I’d love for the developers and writers to put in the effort to involve each character in different ways. One of the things I think we should see more is characters being remembered after they die. Sometimes it feels like all of your other characters immediately forget about anyone that dies. but I don’t see how removing permadeath would have much effect on the overall plot of the games.

Edited August 15, 2020 by Whisky

[Eltosian Kadath]

39 minutes ago, Maof06 said:

I didn't play PoR too much (only up to chapter 10), but wasn't Ike's father the only person to die in the early game? If so, he wasn't a playable character to begin with.

What he means is the script has different conditionals to account for the possibility that characters have died. As an example take the prebattle script of chapter 4, which I have put in the spoiler boxes below, with sections in quotation marks, and the conditionals that triggered them separated in italics and bolded, and conversation continues indicating the end of the conditional statement.

 

Spoiler

Quote

Mist:
“Ike! Ike! I’ve got to tell you something! Listen to this!”

Ike:
“Settle down, Mist. It’s too early for you to be yelling like that. Now, what’s going on?”

Mist:
“Soren’s back! He just arrived.”

Ike:
“Really? That’s odd. He wasn’t supposed to return for a while yet.”

Mist:
“I know! I wonder what he’s doing back so soon…”

Ike:
“It’s probably nothing to worry about. I’ll go and talk to him. Where is he?”

Mist:
“In the mess hall. I think he wanted to talk to Father.”

Ike:
“Right. I’ll go check there.”

Greil:
“…Troubling news indeed. Gather the troops.”

Titania:
“Yes, Commander.”

Greil:
“Ike, if you’ve got time to waste, you’ve got time to work. Get over to the briefing room.”

Ike:
“Yes, sir.”

Ike:
“Hey! What’s going on around here?”

Soren:
“Bad news. Something big is happening, and we need to formulate a plan of action.”

Ike:
“Soren!”

Soren:
“Hello, Ike. Long time, no see.”

Ike:
“I’m happy to see you’re back. But hat happened? I thought you were going to be studying for a while longer.”

Soren:
“It’s a long story…”

Greil:
“What’s the hold up? Get over here now!”

Soren:
“Let’s go. I’ll fill you in later.”

Greil:
“You probably remember that Soren’s been training with another mercenary group. Well, he’s back now. And he has some unbelievable news.”

Ike:
“What news is that?”

Greil:
“It’s Crimea and Daein. They’ve gone to war.”

Mist:
“War?! It…It can’t be!”

Greil:
“That’s why I’ve called everyone here. Soren has some more information. Go ahead, Soren.”

Soren:
“All right.”

Soren:
“Take a look at this map.”

Greil:
“Ah. It’s a map of Crimea. Quite detailed, from the looks of it.”

Soren:
“Yes. This is the Melior, Crimea’s capital. Our base of operations is…”

Soren:
“Everything started three days ago. I needed to do some research, so I went to the archives of Melior’s royal library.”

Soren:
“Without warning, the scream of a terrible beast–a wyvern, perhaps–rent the air, and the building was rocked by a tremor.”

Soren:
“I rushed outside and saw wave after wave of knights, cavalry, and wyvern riders, each clad in glistening ebon armor, black as night.”

Greil:
“The Daein army?”

Soren:
“Correct.”

Greil:
“Was there provocation?”

Soren:
“As you know, relations between Crimea and Daein have never been…friendly. However, the past centuries have seen only minor skirmishes, nothing that has ever approached the scale of this attack. It was brutal and without warning. Daein laid the capital to waste. I’ve never seen destruction on this scale before.”

Titania:
“A swift attack, devastating and brutal…A daring gambit, indeed.”

Greil:
“But if it succeeds, a very well-chosen one at that.”

Greil:
“Yes, the king of Daein would not hesitate to employ such treacherous tactics. What happened next?”

Soren:
“King Crimea’s brother deployed the Crimean army to meet the attack. The king ordered his people to flee the city before the battle reached them. Fearing the worst, I also fled and made my way here.”

Greil:
“So we don’t know how the tides of battle flow now, do we?”

Greil:
“That’s all right. Word of the war cannot have traveled far yet. We may well be the first ones who know of it out here. You did well to bring us this information, Soren. I know some risk was involved.”

Soren:
“It was nothing.”

Titania:
“Daein has invaded Crimea…We may be mercenaries, but this still affects us.”

Ike:
“What are we going to do?”

Greil:
“That’s the question of the day. How do you see it, Titania?”

Titania:
“Crimea is the closest thing our company has to a homeland The Crimean royal family and noble houses have been generous, providing us with many lucrative jobs. From a moral standpoint as well as a business one, it’s in our best interest to help Crimea.”

Greil:
“And you, Soren?”

Soren:
“I agree on one point: we are mercenaries.We are not Crimea’s private militia. No coin has crossed our palms, so I think we should stay out of it.”

Greil:
“So you would have us sit and watch as Crimea is overrun?”

Soren:
“I would. Daein’s troops are superior in both numbers and morale. The chances of a Crimean victory are slim indeed.”

Titania:
“But Crimea is ruled by King Ramon, who is known throughout the land for his wisdom. And his brother, Duke Renning, is said t possess peerless valor and courage. Daein may not find victory so easily.”

Soren:
“Valor and courage are for children’s tales. In terms of military prowess, Daein’s King Ashnard is every bit Lord Renning’s equal. Victory will hinge on troop numbers and supplies, and Daein is superior in both. I think the outcome is painfully obvious.”

Titania:
“Curse you, Soren! Crimea is not doomed! If they can turn aside Daein’s initial thrust and turn it into a test of endurance…”

Soren:
“With the Crimean army both demoralized and ill prepared? They simply will not be able to hold out that long.”

Greil:
“All right. That’s enough. Both of you.”

Greil:
“I hear what you say. However, we must ascertain the current situation before we decide on any action. We’ll send a scouting party to get a closer look at Melior.”

 

If Gatrie, Shinon, and Rhys are dead

Quote

Greil:
“Ike, I want you in charge of this. Assemble your men and get going.”

Ike:
“What? Me?”

Greil:
“Titania will go along as an advisor…And take Soren as well.”

Ike:
“Father, wait…Why do you want me–“

Greil:
“That was an order. Get moving. There’s no time to waste.”

Ike:
“But–Yes, sir.”

Greil:
“Titania, I’m going out for a bit. I want you to give Ike some direction.”

Titania:
“Understood.”

Ike:
“…”

 

If Gatrie and Rhys are dead

Quote

Greil:
“Ike, I want you in charge of this. Assemble your men and get going.”

Ike:
“What? Me?”

Greil:
“Titania will accompany you as an advisor.”

Shinon:
“Commander, you must be joking! He’s just a boy, and he’s had barely more than a taste of battle. What do you expect a whelp like him to accomplish?”

Greil:
“Ah, Shinon. Since you’re so concerned, you can go as well.”

Shinon:
“Wait, that’s not what I…Blast.”

Greil:
“Soren, I want you to go, too.”

Ike:
“Father, wait…Why do you want me–“

Greil:
“That was an order. Get moving. There’s no time to waste.”

Ike:
“But–Yes, sir.”

Greil:
“Titania, I’m going out for a bit. I want you to give Ike some direction.”

Titania:
“Understood.”

Ike:
“…”

 

If Shinon and Rhys are dead

Quote

Greil:
“Ike, I want you in charge of this. Assemble your men and get going.”

Ike:
“What? Me?”

Greil:
“Titania will accompany you as an advisor. Take Gatrie and Soren as well.”

Ike:
“Hold on, Commander! Why do you want…”

Greil:
“That was an order. Get moving. There’s no time to waste.”

Ike:
“But–Yes, sir.”

Greil:
“Titania, I’m going out for a bit. I want you to give Ike some direction.”

Titania:
“Understood.”

Ike:
“…”

 

If Shinon and Gatrie are dead

Quote

Greil:
“Ike, I want you in charge of this. Assemble your men and get going.”

Ike:
“What? Me?”

Greil:
“Titania will accompany you as an advisor. Take Rhys and Soren as well.”

Ike:
“Father, wait…Why do you want me–“

Greil:
“That was an order. Get moving. There’s no time to waste.”

Ike:
“But–Yes, sir.”

Greil:
“Titania, I’m going out for a bit. I want you to give Ike some direction.”

Titania:
“Understood.”

Ike:
“…”

 

If Gatrie is dead

Quote

Greil:
“Ike, I want you in charge of this. Assemble your men and get going.”

Ike:
“What? Me?”

Greil:
“Titania will go along as an advisor…”

Shinon:
“Commander, you must be joking! He’s just a boy, and he’s had barely more than a taste of battle. What do you expect a whelp like him to accomplish?”

Greil:
“Ah, Shinon. Since you’re so concerned, you can go as well.”

Shinon:
“Wait, that’s not what I…Blast.”

Greil:
“Who else? Rhys and Soren? Yes, that should do.”

Ike:
“Father, wait…Why do you want me–“

Greil:
“That was an order. Get moving. There’s no time to waste.”

Ike:
“But–Yes, sir.”

Greil:
“Titania, I’m going out for a bit. I want you to give Ike some direction.”

Titania:
“Understood.”

Ike:
“…”

 

If Shinon is dead

Quote

Greil:
“Ike, I want you in charge of this. Assemble your men and get going.”

Ike:
“What? Me?”

Greil:
“Titania will go along as an advisor…And take Gatrie, Rhys, and Soren as well.”

Ike:
“Father, wait…Why do you want me–“

Greil:
“That was an order. Get moving. There’s no time to waste.”

Ike:
“But–Yes, sir.”

Greil:
“Titania, I’m going out for a bit. I want you to give Ike some direction.”

Titania:
“Understood.”

Ike:
“…”

 

If Rhys is dead

Quote

Greil:
“Ike, I want you in charge of this. Assemble your men and get going.”

Ike:
“What? Me?”

Greil:
“Titania will go along as an advisor…”

Shinon:
“You’ve got to be kidding! Commander, what do you expect a whelp like Ike to accomplish?”

Greil:
“Ah, Shinon. Since you’re so concerned, you can go along as well.”

Shinon:
“Wait, that’s not what I…Blast.”

Greil:
“Gatrieand Soren. You go as well.”

Ike:
“Father, wait…Why do you want me–“

Greil:
“That was an order. Get moving. There’s no time to waste.”

Ike:
“But–Yes, sir.”

Greil:
“Titania, I’m going out for a bit. I want you to give Ike some direction.”

Titania:
“Understood.”

Ike:
“…”

 

If everyone is alive

Quote

Greil:
“Ike, I want you in charge of this. Assemble your men and get going.”

Ike:
“What? Me?”

Greil:
“Titania will accompany you as an advisor.”

Shinon:
“Commander, you must be joking! He’s just a boy, and he’s had barely more than a taste of battle. What do you expect a whelp like him to accomplish?”

Greil:
“Ah, Shinon. Since you’re so concerned, you can go as well.”

Shinon:
“Wait, that’s not what I…Blast.”

Greil:
“Who else…Gatrie Rhys, and Soren. That should do.”

Ike:
“Father, wait…Why do you want me–“

Greil:
“That was an order. Get moving. There’s no time to waste.”

Ike:
“Yes, sir.”

Greil:
“Titania, I’m going out for a bit. I want you to give Ike some direction.”

Titania:
“Understood.”

Soren:
“…Yes, sir.”

 

Conversation continues

Quote

Mist:
“Ike! Wait up!”

Ike:
“What?”

Mist:
“Here! This is for you.”

Ike:
“A sword? Where did you get it?”

Mist:
“From Father. He told me to come and give it to you.”

Ike:
“It’s beautiful.”

Mist:
“This is the first sword you’ve gotten that wasn’t a hand-me-down from somebody, isn’t it? That’s great!”

Ike:
“Yeah…”

Mist:
“Well, be careful! Oh, and bring me a souvenir! Something nice. I’ve never been to Melior before…”

Ike:
“Mist, I’m not going on vacation. Sheesh!”

 

If Rhys is alive

Quote

Ike:
“…”

Rhys:
“Are you feeling all right, Ike? You haven’t said a word in quite some time.”

Ike:
“I don’t understand what my father’s doing. Why put a new recruit like me in charge of something so important?”

Rhys:
“You’re going to succeed him as our commander one day. Don’t you think he wants you to know how to lead?”

Ike:
“Me? I don’t… I don’t know if I’m capable. And even if I am, that day’s a long way off, right? I mean, I’m inexperienced. Weak. I’m nothing compared to my father.”

Rhys:
“I’m not so sure about that. When I look at you, I see a young man full of promise. Commander Greil is a great man, but…I think you’ll be every bit his equal.In time, you might even surpass him.”

Ike:
“Don’t be ridiculous!”

Rhys:
“It’s just my opinion. You need not pay it any mind. Yet, if you fear your own weakness, why not take this chance to go out and better yourself? That would be more in keeping with your personality, no?”

Ike:
“I suppose you’re right.”

 

If Rhys is dead

Quote

Ike:
“…”

Titania:
“What’s wrong, Ike? You seem lost in thought.”

Ike:
“I don’t understand what my father’s doing. Why put a new recruit like me in charge of something so important?”

Titania:
“You’re going to succeed him as our commander some day. Perhaps he wants you to learn the qualities of leadership.”

Ike:
“Me? I don’t… I don’t know if I’m capable. And even if I am, that day’s a long way off, right? I mean, I’m inexperienced. Weak. I’m nothing compared to my father.”

Titania:
“Well, I’m sure you have some time. Still, it’s never too early for you to start preparing for that day. And if you truly think you’re weak, shouldn’t you train and study to improve yourself? Commander Greil’s counting on you, you know?”

Ike:
“You’re right…”

 

Conversation continues

 

If Rhys and Gatrie are alive

Quote

Ike:
“How did things look over there, Soren?”

Soren:
“Same as here. There are corpses strewn everywhere. There are quite a lot of them, especially when you consider how far we are from the capital.”

Titania:
“Are they Crimean?”

Rhys:
“…Judging by the armor, the vast majority of the dead are Daein soldiers.[“

Ike:
“So Crimea has the upper hand?”

Soren:
“Just the opposite, I think. The Crimean soldiers were members of the Imperial Guard. That means King Ramon–or another member of the royal family–was on the move when Daein soldiers fell on them.”

Titania:
“Could it have been Lord Renning?”

Soren:
“No. As long as the Crimean army still draws breath, Lord Renning will not leave their command. Perhaps another member of the court…”

Gatrie:
“We’ve got Daein soldiers moving in on our location! And they don’t look happy!”

 

If Rhys is alive, but Gatrie is dead

Quote

Ike:
“How did things look over there, Soren?”

Soren:
“Same as here. There are corpses strewn everywhere. There are quite a lot of them, especially when you consider how far we are from the capital.”

Titania:
“Are they Crimean?”

Rhys:
“…Judging by the armor,the vast majority of the dead are Daein soldiers.[“

Ike:
“So Crimea has the upper hand?”

Soren:
“Just the opposite, I think. The Crimean soldiers were members of the Imperial Guard. That means King Ramon–or another member of the royal family–was on the move when Daein soldiers fell on them.”

Titania:
“Could it have been Lord Renning?”

Soren:
“No. As long as the Crimean army still draws breath, Lord Renning will not leave their command. Perhaps another member of the court…”

Rhys:
“Uh-oh. Trouble…I see Daein soldiers–and they’re coming this way!”

 

If Gatrie is alive, but Rhys is dead

Quote

Ike:
“How did things look over there, Soren?”

Soren:
“Same as here. There are corpses strewn everywhere. There are quite a lot of them, especially when you consider how far we are from the capital.”

Titania:
“Are they Crimean?”

Gatrie:
“I don’t think so. Look at that black armor, Ike. The vast majority of the dead are Daein soldiers.”

Ike:
“So Crimea has the upper hand?”

Soren:
“Just the opposite, I think. The Crimean soldiers were members of the Imperial Guard. That means King Ramon–or another member of the royal family–was on the move when Daein soldiers fell on them.”

Titania:
“Could it have been Lord Renning?”

Soren:
“No. As long as the Crimean army still draws breath, Lord Renning will not leave their command. Perhaps another member of the court…”

Ike:
“Wait, over there! Someone’s coming this way!”

 

If Rhys and Gatrie are dead

Quote

Ike:
“How did things look over there, Soren?”

Soren:
“Same as here. There are corpses strewn everywhere. There are quite a lot of them, especially when you consider how far we are from the capital.”

Titania:
“Are they Crimean?”

Soren:
“No. See their armor? They seem mostly to be Daein soldiers.”

Ike:
“So Crimea has the upper hand?”

Soren:
“Just the opposite, I think. The Crimean soldiers were members of the Imperial Guard. That means King Ramon–or another member of the royal family–was on the move when Daein soldiers fell on them.”

Titania:
“Could it have been Lord Renning?”

Soren:
“No. As long as the Crimean army still draws breath, Lord Renning will not leave their command. Perhaps another member of the court…”

Ike:
“Ah! Someone’s coming this way!”

 

Conversation continues

 

If Titania is dead

Quote

Ike:
“Titania, I want you to fall back.”

Titania:
“Understood. I’m leaving this in your hands, Ike.”

Ike:
“Right. I’ll give it a shot.”

 

Conversation continues

 

If Shinon is alive

Quote

Maijin:
“You there! Who are you? What are you doing here?”

Titania:
“We’re no one you need–“

Maijin:
“You’re armed! Heed me! Drop your weapons and surrender! Act quickly, or else!”

Shinon:
“Listen to me, fool. You’re making a mistake. We’re not…”

Maijin:
“Ah, not going to cooperate, eh? Ready your weapons, men! Move in and kill them all!”

 

If Shinon is dead

Quote

Maijin:
“You there! Who are you? What are you doing here?”

Titania:
“We’re no one you need–“

Maijin:
“You’re armed! Heed me! Drop your weapons and surrender! Act quickly, or else!”

Titania:
“Listen, we have nothing to do with the Crimean army. We’re only–“

Maijin:
“Ah, not going to cooperate, eh? Ready your weapons, men! Move in and kill them all!”

Conversation continues

Quote

Maijin:
“Tsk! Headstrong fools!”

Soren:
“Getting caught up in some skirmish is not art of the plan…”

Ike:
“But they’re obviously not going to listen to us. Greil Mercenaries! Get ready to fight!”

 

 

 

 

[lenticular]

21 minutes ago, Whisky said:

But for the most part, characters in FE are part of a small army fighting in a war. What relevance could most characters have in the overall plot? Do you just want more dialogue from them, maybe more paralogues, or other extra things if you still have certain characters alive at certain points? I’m all for involving the side characters in more ways. I’d love for the developers and writers to put in the effort to involve each character in different ways. One of the things I think we should see more is characters being remembered after they die. Sometimes it feels like all of your other characters immediately forget about anyone that dies. but I don’t see how removing permadeath would have much effect on the overall plot of the games.

I'm imagining that side characters could play a role a bit like recurring characters in a TV series. I wouldn't want equal prominence for every character, because I can't see how that would work. Absolutely there should still be main characters and supporting characters. But within that framework, there is still scope to improve the relevance of supporting characters. For instance, imagine that there are a few main characters who form the war council  for your army, but every so often they invite other characters to attend their council meeting because they offer some unique knowledge or expertise (a fighting style, a hometown or location, a history with a character, etc.). The character could then contribute meaningfully to the overall plot, driving the story forward, and making the world feel more connected. It doesn't do that much to the overall plot, but it helps out a lot with characterisation and world building.

Instead, what we tend to get from side characters in terms of appearing in the main story is either an occasional irrelevant one-liner that says "remember me? I'm going to say something inconsequential to remind you of my defining character trait" or literally nothing. We only really get anything from side characters in supports and paralogues, and while they can be great, they also too often feel disconnected from the main story and from each other. They happen, and then they are instantly forgotten. Having things be optional and missable also makes them, ultimately, irrelevant. They can be satisfying as their own self-contained bits of story, but they don't actually matter to the larger story of the game. In a game with no permdeath, the writers' hands are considerably less tied and they are more able to weave a coherent whole rather than a bunch of scarcely-connected stories running in parallel.

[Whisky]

If their lines only add to world building and characterization and don’t effect the plot itself much, then what’s stopping these lines from existing with permadeath like with the POR example above? It takes more work, but don’t we want games to have more effort put into them? Sometimes the extra effort is what separates the great from the average.

I don’t agree that optional or missable content is less meaningful. It can make things more interesting because each playthrough can be different in subtle ways. You might think that the cutscene you’re viewing is the only one, but then you play a again and see a slightly different one.

How does Sacred Stones handle permadeath anyway? There some characters that are pretty important to the story like Joshua, Inness, L’Arachel. Do all of these characters get injured instead of dying or do the cutscenes change?

Edited August 15, 2020 by Whisky

[lenticular]

15 minutes ago, Whisky said:

If their lines only add to world building and characterization and don’t effect the plot itself much, then what’s stopping these lines from existing with permadeath like with the POR example above? It takes more work, but don’t we want games to have more effort put into them? Sometimes the extra effort is what separates the great from the average.

In theory, absolutely we do. In practice, the question isn't whether a game would be improved by extra work/time/money/resources. No game is perfect and every game can be improved. A more pertinent question is, given that there is a limited to the amount of work/time/money/resources, is this the single best way to spend these resources that will give the most efficient return on investment in terms of overall game quality? I would say, probably not.

 

38 minutes ago, Whisky said:

I don’t agree that optional or missable content is less meaningful. It can make things more interesting because each playthrough can be different in subtle ways. You might think that the cutscene you’re viewing is the only one, but then you play a again and see a slightly different one.

I'm not saying that it can't be interesting. I'm saying that it is inconsequential to the main story, in that it doesn't change how things ultimately pan out. Although, one possible fundamental difference between us that may be a root of some disagreement is that I only rarely replay games, and when I do, it's normally after long enough has passed that I've forgotten the details of my original playthrough. This means I typically want the single-playthrough experience to be as good as possible and don't care a whole lot about replay value. I can certainly see that people who replay a lot could have different priorities to me.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

11 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Honestly if IS is going to keep permadeath around just make it a purely gameplay thing and have it not mentioned or even brought in the story at all. Permadeath hinders the storytelling more often than not so the easy workaround is just to not acknowledge it within the context of the story at all

That ruins the immersion, though. Like in Fates, I remember Silas dying... and the showing up in advance of Nina's paralogue, to talk to Niles. It didn't have to be Silas - it could have been Corrin, or Niles' wife. Silas being there was unnecessary and added nothing to his character - it just reinforced "this character no longer exists in terms of gameplay, but has to exist in the story".

1 hour ago, Whisky said:

How does Sacred Stones handle permadeath anyway? There some characters that are pretty important to the story like Joshua, Inness, L’Arachel. Do all of these characters get injured instead of dying or do the cutscenes change?

I know that if Tana dies, Ephraim and L'Arachel get an exclusive conversation before the Rausten defense map. And if Joshus dies, he doesn't show up to hear Ismaire's dying words.

[NinjaMonkey]

On 8/9/2020 at 1:55 AM, Benice said:

1. It ignores or overrules things FE6 said, and there were plenty of missed plot points, such as Hector having a half bother who is absent in FE7

Why would they mention his half-brother if he isn't relevant to the plot? Also, there's a 20myear gap between FE7 and 6, maybe circumstances have changed in that time.

Edited August 15, 2020 by NinjaMonkey

[Benice]

2 minutes ago, NinjaMonkey said:

Why would they mention his half-brother if he isn't relevant to the plot?

Because he should have been relevant to the plot, given that one of Hector's major character points is caring deeply for the family he has left- Hector's half-brother should have at least been mentioned or it should have explained why he has a half-sibling in the first place. Granted, it's not the best example of FE7's disparity with FE6, but it does demonstrate how FE7 ignores a lot of the plot points FE6 set up.

[Acacia Sgt]

I'd say, things like Uther's words in his letter to Oswin:

Quote

we are brothers. We are all we have.

Sound a bit off knowing Orun exists. Like, what, is Uther deliberately ignoring Orun there?

Also, you know what could've been the best way for Orun to show up in Blazing Sword? Kinship's Bond. It happens at the Thria-Ostia border. Uther is present. A scene with the three would've been nice.

[Ottservia]

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

That ruins the immersion, though. Like in Fates, I remember Silas dying... and the showing up in advance of Nina's paralogue, to talk to Niles. It didn't have to be Silas - it could have been Corrin, or Niles' wife. Silas being there was unnecessary and added nothing to his character - it just reinforced "this character no longer exists in terms of gameplay, but has to exist in the story".

I feel that’s more a personal thing though. Like personally something like that doesn’t bother me. I can see how it would bother other people but overall it’s not gonna break everyone’s immersion because that’s very much so a highly subjective point

[Interdimensional Observer]

I'd say just retcon Orun into a cousin of Hector, royals and nobles usually had a bunch of those that they weren't necessarily close to IRL.

It doesn't surprise me that FE7 forgot he existed, because he doesn't have any dialogue or a portrait, because you never see him, because he dies before you ever meet him, because all his existence is for is an "it's a trap!" chapter for Roy. He is not a character.

Could FE7 have made him a character? Yes. Did it? No. Is it a major loss? Absolutely not.

[Samz707]

14 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

I'm just saying, a game with 12 characters you know will be there is likely to have a better plot than a shotgun blast of characters.

Having a good story is already hard enough, Fire Emblem suffers from the problem of being unable to know what context things are happening in.

Thankfully it's fun to play.

I've played games with less than 12 characters and the story/character writing was still awful.

Yes in theory it can help but well, it doesn't guarentee it.

I'd rather have a shotgun blast of mostly simple characters in FE.

[Whisky]

4 hours ago, lenticular said:

In theory, absolutely we do. In practice, the question isn't whether a game would be improved by extra work/time/money/resources. No game is perfect and every game can be improved. A more pertinent question is, given that there is a limited to the amount of work/time/money/resources, is this the single best way to spend these resources that will give the most efficient return on investment in terms of overall game quality? I would say, probably not.

 

Well the alternative is leaving it how it is or making sacrifices in other areas. I’m not convinced that removing permadeath would improve the story because side characters don’t have much relevance in other games without permadeath either and there are some FE games that have better stories than some games without permadeath. But let’s say that removing permadeath would definitely improve the story and allow more development of side characters; the way I see it, we already have other games without permadeath. Fire Emblem is the Tactical RPG for people that like permadeath, and maybe there are other Tactical RPGs without permadeath for people that prioritize the story telling and want side characters to be more relevant.

 

4 hours ago, lenticular said:

I'm not saying that it can't be interesting. I'm saying that it is inconsequential to the main story, in that it doesn't change how things ultimately pan out. Although, one possible fundamental difference between us that may be a root of some disagreement is that I only rarely replay games, and when I do, it's normally after long enough has passed that I've forgotten the details of my original playthrough. This means I typically want the single-playthrough experience to be as good as possible and don't care a whole lot about replay value. I can certainly see that people who replay a lot could have different priorities to me.

Good observation. I do like to replay games. It’s an interesting thing to think about. Should a game prioritize making the best experience of the first playthrough or should it prioritize adding replay value? If they have to hurt one to improve the other, is it worth it? There is no right answer here.

[lenticular]

58 minutes ago, Whisky said:

Well the alternative is leaving it how it is or making sacrifices in other areas. I’m not convinced that removing permadeath would improve the story because side characters don’t have much relevance in other games without permadeath either and there are some FE games that have better stories than some games without permadeath. But let’s say that removing permadeath would definitely improve the story and allow more development of side characters; the way I see it, we already have other games without permadeath. Fire Emblem is the Tactical RPG for people that like permadeath, and maybe there are other Tactical RPGs without permadeath for people that prioritize the story telling and want side characters to be more relevant.

Interestingly, I look at Fire Emblem pretty much the exact opposite way. I play a lot of strategy and tactics games, turn-based games, and games with ironman modes or similar where you have to live with the consequences of your mistakes (chess, X-Com, Europa Universalis, classic roguelikes, etc.). I already have plenty of other strategy games that are all about the game mechanics, so Fire Emblem's big appeal to me is that it can do story and characters as well. In comparison, I do play a few RPGs here and there, but not as many. From my perspective, I can equally as well say that we already have other games with permadeath and that Fire Emblem is the turn-based tactics game for people who want to prioritise storytelling and characters. Neither perspective is right or wrong; it just depends what direction you're coming from.