What is your unpopular Fire Emblem opinion?

[samthedigital]

Just now, Jotari said:

I don't think you can't account for the randomness. I think you're unwilling to try to account for the randomness because of the existence of randomness. I'm not trying to insult you, it's a simple fact that you have an issue with this and I don't. And there are only two possible reasons for this. Either I am playing the game better than you, or I am phenomenally lucky in comparison to you. And I don't think it's likely to be the latter.

I'll introduce a third option: I am better at the game than you and can account for the randomness, but I would prefer not having to. Suppose that I can get two more units with good arena luck over the course of the game or my Effie can reach a specific breakpoint to one round enemies only with the right meal in one portion of a chapter. Those options are only available to me depending on what luck I get.

[Jotari]

17 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

I'll introduce a third option: I am better at the game than you and can account for the randomness, but I would prefer not having to. Suppose that I can get two more units with good arena luck over the course of the game or my Effie can reach a specific breakpoint to one round enemies only with the right meal in one portion of a chapter. Those options are only available to me depending on what luck I get.

No, that's just option 1. Like I said, it's not that you can't, it's that you're unwilling to try. If you were, then we wouldn't be having this conversation, but it's not difficult or time consuming.

Edited August 18, 2023 by Jotari

[samthedigital]

31 minutes ago, Jotari said:

No, that's just option 1. Like I said, it's not that you can't, it's that you're unwilling to.

When did I say that I was unwilling to account for the randomness? In the example provided I can use another strategy or swap to another unit, but the random component of the game has denied me of a strategy that I could use. If your options follow the argument then you're implying that you're the better player because you can use whatever strategy you want which is obviously impossible in any Fire Emblem game let alone Conquest.

Edited August 18, 2023 by samthedigital

[Jotari]

55 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

When did I say that I was unwilling to account for the randomness? In the example provided I can use another strategy or swap to another unit, but the random component of the game has denied me of a strategy that I could use. If your options follow the argument then you're implying that you're the better player because you can use whatever strategy you want which is obviously impossible in any Fire Emblem game let alone Conquest.

Whatever strategy I want, no. A strategy that doesn't rely on any social media aspects of the game to artificially boost the amount of available resources, yes, absolutely. Just like how I can formulate a strategy that doesn't rely on the gold and exp farming DLC chapters.

Edited August 18, 2023 by Jotari

[samthedigital]

4 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Whatever strategy I want, no. A strategy that doesn't rely on any social media aspects of the game to artificially boost the amount of available resources, yes, absolutely.

You can also "artificially" boost your resources by taking more time to play the game too, but regardless... Can you also use every strategy that doesn't rely on those things? The answer to this should hopefully also be no given the random nature of the arena and stat boosts from the mess hall.

[Jotari]

37 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

You can also "artificially" boost your resources by taking more time to play the game too, but regardless... Can you also use every strategy that doesn't rely on those things? The answer to this should hopefully also be no given the random nature of the arena and stat boosts from the mess hall.

That's not the question though. The whole debate started around the Social Networking aspect of My Castle and ether it is or isn't pushed on the player. My Castle as a general idea at all is of course pushed on the player. In the same way using Emblem's in Engage is pushed on the player. IE it's a mechanic of the game. Can you ignore this mechanic entirely and finish Conquest Lunatic without touching My Castle at all? *shrug* probably. It's not a challenge I've personally undertaken, but I'm sure a "No My Castle" run of Fates is possible. Here's someone who claims to have done it

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/114533-fire-emblem-fates-conquest/79250814

Though I notice going into their google doc they mention a forged Killing Edge for Odin which is only possible with My Castle. Certainly not having forges or access to buy more staves would hurt the hardest, but that is a challenge run after all. Most people do play using my castle at the very least for shops and forgings. Personally after my first playthrough I never went near the personal quarters. As it takes so agonizingly long for the personal quarters animations to run through that it just wasn't worth the support bonuses it provided compared to irl time it took.

Edited August 18, 2023 by Jotari

[samthedigital]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

It's not a challenge I've personally undertaken, but I'm sure a "No My Castle" run of Fates is possible. Here's someone who claims to have done it

That's not the question I was asking. That will naturally use no strategy that My Castle can provide the player with, and I wouldn't question the validity of such a playthrough. What I'm asking is if you're able to do every single strategy that it brings to the table given that it is inherently random.

[Jotari]

3 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

That's not the question I was asking. That will naturally use no strategy that My Castle can provide the player with, and I wouldn't question the validity of such a playthrough. What I'm asking is if you're able to do every single strategy that it brings to the table given that it is inherently random.

So, if I understand what you're saying, is you can do more strategies by abusing the social media aspects for more resources? Well, sure. Obviously. You can do more strategies abusing skirmishes for exp and the DLC chapters to farm for infinite gold. It's not a particularly meaningful comment to make though. The maximum number of viable strategies would be to crack open the game and hack it so you can have access to all skills on all units (and have all units) from chapter 1. But it doesn't really prove anything.

[samthedigital]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

So, if I understand what you're saying, is you can do more strategies by abusing the social media aspects for more resources?

I never mentioned them, so no, I'm talking about the randomness from one playthrough to the next without the social media aspects, so I'll ask the question again.

[Jotari]

18 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

I never mentioned them, so no, I'm talking about the randomness from one playthrough to the next without the social media aspects, so I'll ask the question again.

Well you might have to rephrase it then as it's not obvious to me what you mean. Do you mean to say it's impossible to create a repeatable strategy without the social media aspects? Because to that I'd say no, of course you can make repeatable strategies without the social media aspects. That's the whole conceit of what I'm saying. The randomness can be overcome with proper play.

[samthedigital]

16 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Well you might have to rephrase it then as it's not obvious to me what you mean. Do you mean to say it's impossible to create a repeatable strategy without the social media aspects?

 

Quote

What I'm asking is if you're able to do every single strategy that it brings to the table given that it is inherently random.

I've bolded it for clarity; I don't know why it's not obvious to you because you continue to argue about something that I've never contested and have said that I agree with multiple times. If I can't use a given strategy because I don't get a favorable meal then that is randomness that I don't enjoy in Fire Emblem. I don't know what exactly you're missing here, and there is nothing in that statement that is inherently wrong as it is an opinion. It has nothing to do with my skill level or being able to create another strategy.

Edited August 18, 2023 by samthedigital

[Jotari]

4 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

I've bolded it for clarity; I don't know why it's not obvious to you because you continue to argue about something that I've never contested and have said that I agree with multiple times. If I can't use a given strategy because I don't get a favorable meal then that is randomness that I don't enjoy in Fire Emblem. I don't know what exactly you're missing here, and there is nothing in that statement that is inherently wrong as it is an opinion. It has nothing to do with my skill level or being able to create another strategy.

Well then that just loops back to my initial comment, that of course the number of options available to you opens up the more you abuse mechanics for additional resources with the limit to that logic being outright hacking the game to have everything.

[samthedigital]

8 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Well then that just loops back to my initial comment, that of course the number of options available to you opens up the more you abuse mechanics for additional resources with the limit to that logic being outright hacking the game to have everything.

Your initial comment was that not enjoying the randomness was a skill issue. A variety of different options will also open up depending on the given playthrough especially if you're not resetting a lot for a favorable outcome; it's the same as random growths in that sense, and I don't enjoy random growths either.

Edited August 18, 2023 by samthedigital

[Jotari]

4 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

Your initial comment was that not enjoying the randomness was a skill issue. A variety of different options will also open up depending on the given playthrough especially if you're not resetting a lot for a favorable outcome; it's the same as random growths in that sense, and I don't enjoy random growths either.

I haven't been saying that not enjoying randomeness is a skill issue. I'm saying not being able to compensate for ranomdness is a skill issue. Put it this way. If you attack with an Iron Lance and have a 90% chance of hitting but cannot play in such a way to give you leeway in case of that 10% miss, then play in such a way that you can. If you don't like it, well then play a completely deterministic game. But don't blame the optional Online Only +10 Hit equipment item for the 90% hit rate. The 90% hit rate is the 90% hit rate and the game is designed around that. The +10% hit rate equipment is a bonus you can choose to make use of, not a mandatory requirement the player is forced to utilize.

[samthedigital]

3 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Put it this way. If you attack with an Iron Lance and have a 90% chance of hitting but cannot play in such a way to give you leeway in case of that 10% miss, then play in such a way that you can. If you don't like it, well then play a completely deterministic game.

There is a certain element of randomness and determinism that is fun in Fire Emblem though, and where you draw the line is based on preference; to reiterate it's an opinion.

6 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I'm saying not being able to compensate for ranomdness is a skill issue.

And I've agreed with you, so I don't know why this topic has gone on so long.

[Jotari]

3 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

There is a certain element of randomness and determinism that is fun in Fire Emblem though, and where you draw the line is based on preference; to reiterate it's an opinion.

And I've agreed with you, so I don't know why this topic has gone on so long.

And you're entitled to your opinion. But the inital comment I was referring to was Mir's that "My Castle falls down like a House of Cards [without using Social Media features]". To which...no. It doesn't in the slightest. The mechanic works completely fine without the social media features and if anything they destroy the balance of the resources (probably, like I said, I haven't used them, but as is the resources are already very plentiful so any sort of managing that does exist is going to be eradicated with even the slightest boost). Someone can of course not like it, but that doesn't mean it's not working. It's like saying in Engage the DLC Emblems are pushed on the player and Engage Maniac Mode is doesn't work without them. Which is simply not true. Maddening Engage is clearly designed without the DLC in mind and is a very challenging, but tight and managable experience without any of the DLC if you play well, which many of the people who played it without DLC will attest to. Now, of course someone who doesn't like the difficulty challenge of Engage Maniac is entitled to just plain not like the difficulty, but not liking the difficulty isn't the same as the mode not working without the DLC.

[samthedigital]

9 minutes ago, Jotari said:

t's like saying in Engage the DLC Emblems are pushed on the player and Engage Maniac Mode is doesn't work without them. Which is simply not true. Maddening Engage is clearly designed without the DLC in mind and is a very challenging, but tight and managable experience without any of the DLC if you play well, which many of the people who played it without DLC will attest to.

This is somewhat off topic, but I consider Engage on Maddening to be one of the easier titles even without DLC with the appeal being that it's a sandbox that the player can use to create any kind of strategy or build they want to break the game. The well changes things a little bit, but there are still quite a few good builds and strategies to use that put the game on autopilot. I don't really follow the discourse around the game though, so I don't know how true what you're saying is from a community outlook.

 

13 minutes ago, Jotari said:

To which...no. It doesn't in the slightest. The mechanic works completely fine without the social media features and if anything they destroy the balance of the resources (probably, like I said, I haven't used them, but as is the resources are already very plentiful so any sort of managing that does exist is going to be eradicated with even the slightest boost). Someone can of course not like it, but that doesn't mean it's not working.

If you ignore some of his embellishments there are some legitimate points being made.

Quote

And that's not even getting into how the resource you get from your own castle is randomized, meaning if you get daikon, cabbage, peaches or berries (the former two boost resistance and the latter two magic; both of those stats aren't always going to be useful), the mess hall is going to be almost useless. It sucks to want to cook a meal to make something like Conquest chapter 10 easier, but having berries or cabbage in your castle means you can't get much mileage out of it (or ANY in the case of cabbage, as everything in said chapter is physical, thus boosted resistance is useless). Don't get me started on how these, as well as ores, are also used to bribe captures so you don't have to wait to actually use them.

I disagree with him on a lot, but I find that section to be mostly agreeable. I can't comment too much on the specifics; I haven't played Chapter 10 enough and have reached the breakpoints necessary to down Takumi on all of the runs that I've done, but there have been instances where I had to rely on a specific meal or swap a unit to a class I didn't want in order to reach some stat benchmarks to make some things work. The ore comment shouldn't be controversial either as depending on luck (and resetting) you might get enough for a few more captured units throughout the playthrough or get one unit a chapter or two earlier, etc; there are an endless number of possibilities.

[Jotari]

2 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

This is somewhat off topic, but I consider Engage on Maddening to be one of the easier titles even without DLC with the appeal being that it's a sandbox that the player can use to create any kind of strategy or build they want to break the game. The well changes things a little bit, but there are still quite a few good builds and strategies to use that put the game on autopilot. I don't really follow the discourse around the game though, so I don't know how true what you're saying is from a community outlook.

 

If you ignore some of his embellishments there are some legitimate points being made.

I disagree with him on a lot, but I find that section to be mostly agreeable. I can't comment too much on the specifics; I haven't played Chapter 10 enough and have reached the breakpoints necessary to down Takumi on all of the runs that I've done, but there have been instances where I had to rely on a specific meal or swap a unit to a class I didn't want in order to reach some stat benchmarks to make some things work. The ore comment shouldn't be controversial either as depending on luck (and resetting) you might get enough for a few more captured units throughout the playthrough or get one unit a chapter or two earlier, etc; there are an endless number of possibilities.

I wouldn't agree that the mess hall is "almost useless" if you have magic and res boosting fruits. Spd or Atk would be more useful stats to boost, certainly, but only boosting magic or res, even assuming you can never ever get any other type of food, would still be useful as all stats are used for something. And the kitchen is where the argument of randomness holds the most weight, since you can mine, trade and gamble ore which before long will let you have any type you need at any time you need.

[samthedigital]

21 minutes ago, Jotari said:

And the kitchen is where the argument of randomness holds the most weight, since you can mine, trade and gamble ore which before long will let you have any type you need at any time you need.

Don't you need to get enough of your "main" ore, swap at a reduced rate to a new one, and then hope to not lose in the arena for the first one? After that a lot depends on how many rounds you're gambling and winning, and I've found that winning the second round can be inconsistent. You might be able to skip this process with some luck and you might be able to get some more earlier on in the game, but that goes back to my original thoughts on the topic where the luck plays a part in my ability to get a captured unit at a specific time.

Edited August 18, 2023 by samthedigital

[Etrurian emperor]

14 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

To be fair to Julius, aside from being young, Manfroy one-ups him in terms of doing dumb crap that's ruinous to his cause. Case in point: Julia. When she's brought before Julius, he suggests killing her immediately, which would render the Book of Naga - the one thing that can actually harm him - useless. Manfroy, instead, brainwashes her, and sends her at Seliph & co. Of course, this goes to hell when Manfroy is killed and his spell broken, which results in Seliph and friends now having the one person in the world who is Julius's Kryptonite on their side. Indeed, the moment Julia confronts him, Julius knows he's royally fucked and curses Manfroy for screwing up.

In a remake I like to see them switch places. Julius is a complete brat so him brainwashing Julia for the lulz despite it being so incredibly stupid fits. But Manfroy is supposed to be a master schemer able to outwit even Arvis.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, samthedigital said:

Don't you need to get enough of your "main" ore, swap at a reduced rate to a new one, and then hope to not lose in the arena for the first one? After that a lot depends on how many rounds you're gambling and winning, and I've found that winning the second round can be inconsistent. You might be able to skip this process with some luck and you might be able to get some more earlier on in the game, but that goes back to my original thoughts on the topic where the luck plays a part in my ability to get a captured unit at a specific time.

Don't lose the resource. It's pretty clear if you're going to lose a fight. You can cancel part way through. I think you even keep your winnings from the first/second fight if you quit in the second/third. Sure it's possible for a unit to kill you in one hit before you have a chance to quit, in which case, don't gamble everything on the likes of Sakura against a Berserker.

Edited August 18, 2023 by Jotari

[Dark Holy Elf]

For what it's worth I always play Fates (and indeed most video games) without the social features and I always find there's a pretty good ore supply. As Jotari notes it's nearly impossible to lose your wager in round 1 of the arena if you're watching the numbers. I feel like I've written this exact sentence before, but past a certain point I find money is a significantly bigger limiter on my forging than ore is.

I don't generally bother with bribing though, so that might help.

You do indeed keep your winnings from earlier rounds if you give up in the later round. So it's +1 ore for winning one round, +3 ore for winning two, as long as you avoid a turn 1 death in later rounds. You can also savescum the arena very easily; I usually don't but considering the type of things some people are willing to savescum, it's worth mentioning. (Goodness knows ore generation in Fates is far more painless than getting the bond rings you want in Engage, for instance.)

[samthedigital]

47 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I don't generally bother with bribing though, so that might help.

It can be pretty significant depending on what you want to capture (and when) in a run. If you don't bother with it then I'd agree that there are enough resources at pretty much any time over the course of a playthrough.

 

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Don't lose the resource. It's pretty clear if you're going to lose a fight. You can cancel part way through. I think you even keep your winnings from the first/second fight if you quit in the second/third. Sure it's possible for a unit to kill you in one hit before you have a chance to quit, in which case, don't gamble everything on the likes of Sakura against a Berserker.

I wasn't aware of the retreat mechanic, but the general idea should still apply.

Edited August 18, 2023 by samthedigital

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, samthedigital said:

It can be pretty significant depending on what you want to capture (and when) in a run. If you don't bother with it then I'd agree that there are enough resources at pretty much any time over the course of a playthrough.

 

I wasn't aware of the retreat mechanic, but the general idea should still apply.

I don't think most players really capture that much (Mir certainly doesn't as he seems to take very personal insult at Niles' stats). It's mostly regulated to named bosses and certain individual enemies that have interesting skills. If you're doing some kind of generics only run then it would certainly end up being a limiting factor, but beyond that it's going to really be a crunch in the first few chapters, as your access to resources only becomes more plentiful as you progress through the game and upgrade the mine/field/arena. And even then the game is very generous as bribing isn't the exclusive way to get a prisoner, just the fastest (and not even that in the early game, if what I'm reading about is true, specifically that Persuade is based off of the enemy level).

Edited August 18, 2023 by Jotari

[samthedigital]

3 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I don't think most players really capture that much (Mir certainly doesn't as he seems to take very personal insult at Niles' stats). It's mostly regulated to named bosses and certain individual enemies that have interesting skills. If you're doing some kind of generics only run then it would certainly end up being a limiting factor, but beyond that it's going to really be a crunch in the first few chapters, as your access to resources only becomes more plentiful as you progress through the game and upgrade the mine/field/arena.

You'll have to forgive me for not knowing/remembering much about his experience with Conquest outside of the singular post that I saw. Anyway, to use an example from my latest playthrough Nichol costs 15 Meat and 14 Wheat. With my current resources it would take 5 trips to the arena (so effectively 5 chapters) to get the necessary resources with a second round arena win compared to 2 if I won all three rounds every time. I wasn't able to use the bribe mechanic all that much outside of getting rallyman asap, but your mileage may vary.