What is your unpopular Fire Emblem opinion?

[Etrurian emperor]

An unpopular opinion I guess would be that I find Clanne and Framme's avatar obsession more endearing than annoying or degrading. What separates them from the likes of Tharja, Camilla and Monica is that they're just kids meeting their hero. Its harmless, wholesome fanboy/girl admiration rather than actively wanting to get into the main character's pants. 

Quote

Framme: "AH! The Divine Dragon is drinking water! How wonderful! AHH!! I want to be that water!"

Eh.....well in Clanne's case its just fanboy admiration rather than wanting to get into someone's pants. 

[samthedigital]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

If that's the case then the feature very much not being forced on the player.

Yeah, but that doesn't mean that it's a good feature, and it's worse when it's a necessary evil to access parts of the game that are fun.

[Jotari]

28 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

Yeah, but that doesn't mean that it's a good feature, and it's worse when it's a necessary evil to access parts of the game that are fun.

But it's not a necessary feature to access any parts of the game. The only thing resembling that are the Amiibo chapters (or money and a wifi connection for DLC chapters). The game is perfectly playable and any resource goal you might want to go for is perfectly achievable in a timely fashion by just playing the game normally.

[samthedigital]

19 minutes ago, Jotari said:

But it's not a necessary feature to access any parts of the game.

The arena is required to get more materials for forging and cooking, and how much you get is determined by the RNG and by the pace at which you play the game without online features.

21 minutes ago, Jotari said:

The game is perfectly playable and any resource goal you might want to go for is perfectly achievable in a timely fashion by just playing the game normally.

Depending on your definition of normally; again, it's going to vary depending on the player, and the amount of materials you get is still RNG dependent and requires resetting to maximize them.

[Jotari]

Just now, samthedigital said:

The arena is required to get more materials for forging and cooking, and how much you get is determined by the RNG and by the pace at which you play the game without online features.

Depending on your definition of normally; again, it's going to vary depending on the player, and the amount of materials you get is still RNG dependent and requires resetting to maximize them.

Well then if you really have a problem, reset. It's not like it's difficult. Even without resetting you'll win more often in the arena than you lose. Again, the need for money faaaaar outstrips the need for materials when it comes to forging.

[samthedigital]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Again, the need for money faaaaar outstrips the need for materials when it comes to forging.

I'm not sure whether that's true or not, but if you also factor in the bribe/persuasion mechanic it definitely isn't enough depending on how many captured units I want to use.

5 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Well then if you really have a problem, reset. It's not like it's difficult.

Resetting is the problem so to speak. I mentioned that it's tedious because it wastes my time. I also said that it wasn't that big of a deal, but I'm not going to disparage someone for having more of a problem with it.

[Jotari]

14 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

I'm not sure whether that's true or not, but if you also factor in the bribe/persuasion mechanic it definitely isn't enough depending on how many captured units I want to use.

Resetting is the problem so to speak. I mentioned that it's tedious because it wastes my time. I also said that it wasn't that big of a deal, but I'm not going to disparage someone for having more of a problem with it.

When I said "skill issue" I was being memy, but it was backing up my point. If someone can't adequately manage their resources, that's on them. The game is perfectly playable, all named bosses captuarable and bribable, all weapon forging resource affordable, all meals superfluous, but appreciated, bonuses to clear a map. It can be done, I know because I can do it, on multiple playthroughs. The random nature of the game is not so massive as to be unassailable. It's like complaining that Fire Emblem is too difficult and time consuming to play because you have to reset after every time a unit dies. When in reality, you don't at all. Many people choose to because that's how they enjoy playing, but many also play well enough to not need to, and many no doubt do stop playing because they're unwilling to play the game with a difficulty curve like Fire Emblem.

Edited August 17, 2023 by Jotari

[samthedigital]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

The random nature of the game is not so massive as to be unassailable.

I didn't say that it wasn't; the point is that it's unfun (because it denies the player of options based purely on RNG) and is something that can be criticized.

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

all named bosses captuarable and bribable

This one depends on how you play the game. If you're making regular use of the mechanic it's a lot more difficult to do, and there isn't a baseline for how many resources a person should be getting on the average playthrough because MC also resets based on time and not just on chapter completes.

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

The game is perfectly playable, all named bosses captuarable and bribable, all weapon forging resource affordable, all meals superfluous, but appreciated, bonuses to clear a map. It can be done, I know because I can do it, on multiple playthroughs.

Otherwise you're either missing the point or choosing not to address the point that I'm making. It doesn't matter that they're not necessary to beat the game, and it's not what I'm arguing.

only just caught your edit:

Quote

It's like complaining that Fire Emblem is too difficult and time consuming to play because you have to reset after every time a unit dies. When in reality, you don't at all. Many people choose to because that's how they enjoy playing, but many also play well enough to not need to, and many no doubt do stop playing because they're unwilling to play the game with a difficulty curve like Fire Emblem.

This also doesn't have much to do with the point I am making because it doesn't have anything to do with difficulty. The argument against permadeath doesn't have to have anything to do with difficulty either (it's a complicated topic that I wouldn't be interested in getting into), but I'm not sure if you're implying that it does or if you're just using that specific scenario as an example. If I had to give a direct comparison to my scenario it would instead be something like the game tossing a coin and deciding whether I should restart the chapter or not if my unit dies, but it doesn't really work that well.

Edited August 18, 2023 by samthedigital

[Shadow Mir]

9 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

As for the first point, it's hard to really address without a concrete standard. Which other trainee do you think is better than Ross? Ewan, Amelia, or both? And, does what they offer lategame somehow outweigh not only Ross' earlier contributions, and his own mid-to-lategame potential, but also the inheremt challenge of training them in the first place? I'd be curious to hear it!

Personally, I'd say Amelia, largely because she has Paladin access. Admittedly, though, one does have other Paladin options.

9 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

So, Dozla obviously joins much stronger than an untrained Ross, even relative to the higher threat level of his jointime in either route. But, how about compared to a 20/1 Rosszerker? Dozla has higher HP and Con, whereas Ross wins out in Strength, Speed, and Luck. Skill, Defense, and Res are essentially a wash. Leveled up fully, both sides' advantages respective advantages hold.

Personally, I find Ross' advantages a much bigger deal than Dozla's. Higher Speed is great for doubling more foes, while higher Strength is good for killing blows, especially against foes he can't double. Dozla's higher HP is to his credit, although it's offset somewhat by Ross's slim advantage in defensive stats.

And while Dozla's higher Con may seem to offset Ross' Speed advantage, I'd argue it's not that big a deal. Ross is weighed down by a few Axes (Tomohawk, Brave Axe, Battle Axe), yes, but not others (Swordslayer, Hand Axe, Killer Axe, Garm). Plus, Dozla's higher Con makes him harder to Rescue-Drop: only unpromoted Franz and Forde can pull it off.

That said, the biggest difference is in the Luck stat, where Ross has a tremendous advantage. While often derided as "the least important stat in the game", it's not one that you can afford to have too little of. Dozla is facing Crit constantly, which is a serious liability for a "frontliner"-type unit. He can alleviate this with supports, but even his quickest-growing one, with L'Arachel, will take a couple chapters to get online. Ross, conversely, is only facing Crit from enemies who are bringing some "crit boost" into the equation. It's a clear advantage for our lad from Ide.

Personally, I was thinking more in terms of Ross having promoted at level 10; whilst a later promotion is more favorable to Ross, getting to level 20 before promotion would practically require grinding. 

On 8/7/2023 at 12:07 PM, Etrurian emperor said:

Julius for instant can teleport and is functionally immortal but even when coming on the battlefield he doesn't crush the liberation army in its infancy.

 

On 8/7/2023 at 12:20 PM, Jotari said:

Julius doesn't get flak because it plays very much I to his character. He is a child. He is explicitly doing stupid things on a whim because he's immature.

To be fair to Julius, aside from being young, Manfroy one-ups him in terms of doing dumb crap that's ruinous to his cause. Case in point: Julia. When she's brought before Julius, he suggests killing her immediately, which would render the Book of Naga - the one thing that can actually harm him - useless. Manfroy, instead, brainwashes her, and sends her at Seliph & co. Of course, this goes to hell when Manfroy is killed and his spell broken, which results in Seliph and friends now having the one person in the world who is Julius's Kryptonite on their side. Indeed, the moment Julia confronts him, Julius knows he's royally fucked and curses Manfroy for screwing up.

Edited August 18, 2023 by Shadow Mir

[Jotari]

8 hours ago, samthedigital said:

I didn't say that it wasn't; the point is that it's unfun (because it denies the player of options based purely on RNG) and is something that can be criticized.

This one depends on how you play the game. If you're making regular use of the mechanic it's a lot more difficult to do, and there isn't a baseline for how many resources a person should be getting on the average playthrough because MC also resets based on time and not just on chapter completes.

Otherwise you're either missing the point or choosing not to address the point that I'm making. It doesn't matter that they're not necessary to beat the game, and it's not what I'm arguing.

only just caught your edit:

This also doesn't have much to do with the point I am making because it doesn't have anything to do with difficulty. The argument against permadeath doesn't have to have anything to do with difficulty either (it's a complicated topic that I wouldn't be interested in getting into), but I'm not sure if you're implying that it does or if you're just using that specific scenario as an example. If I had to give a direct comparison to my scenario it would instead be something like the game tossing a coin and deciding whether I should restart the chapter or not if my unit dies, but it doesn't really work that well.

Well you'll have to explain your point more clearly because I'm not seeing it. Near as I can tell, it goes back to what I originally said. That the point entirely boils down to "randomness = inherently bad". And if someone can't cope with rng as a mechanic even for side content, then I question why they'd play any Fire Emblem game that isn't Heroes because randomness is literally boiled into every attack you make in Fire Emblem, and it's your job as a player to mitigate and compensate for when it doesn't go your way.

[samthedigital]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Well you'll have to explain your point more clearly because I'm not seeing it. Near as I can tell, it goes back to what I originally said. That the point entirely boils down to "randomness = inherently bad".

Some forms of randomness are bad. It is a subjective take, but that's also what this thread is for.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

And if someone can't cope with rng as a mechanic even for side content, then I question why they'd play any Fire Emblem game that isn't Heroes because randomness is literally boiled into every attack you make in Fire Emblem, and it's your job as a player to mitigate and compensate for when it doesn't go your way.

Would you want to see randomized classes, promotions, etc? If not then you can accept that there are some forms of randomness that aren't appropriate for Fire Emblem even though we can indeed solve the problems the game throws at us regardless of what we get. I prefer to play with fixed growths when available and like having tools that give me more control over my unit's stats, but that doesn't mean that I can't go without them; skill has absolutely nothing to do with it.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, samthedigital said:

Some forms of randomness are bad. It is a subjective take, but that's also what this thread is for.

Would you want to see randomized classes, promotions, etc? If not then you can accept that there are some forms of randomness that aren't appropriate for Fire Emblem even though we can indeed solve the problems the game throws at us regardless of what we get. I prefer to play with fixed growths when available and like having tools that give me more control over my unit's stats, but that doesn't mean that I can't go without them; skill has absolutely nothing to do with it.

When it comes to resource management it kind of does. It means you can't actually compensate for the random nature. Try playing with a walkthrough teaching you how to manage resources. I can guarantee you that, with proper management, you'll be running out of money long before you run out of Amber or Topaz.

[samthedigital]

12 minutes ago, Jotari said:

When it comes to resource management it kind of does. It means you can't actually compensate for the random nature.

Not being able to compensate for it is an assumption that you are making because I don't want to have to compensate for the randomness.

14 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Try playing with a walkthrough teaching you how to manage resources. I can guarantee you that, with proper management, you'll be running out of money long before you run out of Amber or Topaz.

That remains to be seen and does not account for the randomness in cooking. As I've already mentioned the amount of resources I have will also be dependent on how much I'm willing to reset or wait for MC refreshes, so a walkthrough (if such a walkthrough even exists) wouldn't be able to account for all of that.

[Jotari]

3 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

Not being able to compensate for it is an assumption that you are making because I don't want to have to compensate for the randomness.

That remains to be seen and does not account for the randomness in cooking. As I've already mentioned the amount of resources I have will also be dependent on how much I'm willing to reset or wait for MC refreshes, so a walkthrough (if such a walkthrough even exists) wouldn't be able to account for all of that.

We can also reset everytime you miss an attack on the first turn, but just because it can make a better first turn doesn't mean the game is forcing you to do that. You can just deal with the losses, the game will still give you more than you need. The curve is not that strict.

[samthedigital]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

We can also reset everytime you miss an attack on the first turn, but just because it can make a better first turn doesn't mean the game is forcing you to do that. You can just deal with the losses, the game will still give you more than you need. The curve is not that strict.

Again, the point I am making has nothing to do with whether the game gives me what I need to finish the game or not. You continue to miss the point, and it should be pretty clear to you now as I've stated it rather plainly multiple times.

[Jotari]

2 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

Again, the point I am making has nothing to do with whether the game gives me what I need to finish the game or not. You continue to miss the point, and it should be pretty clear to you now as I've stated it rather plainly multiple times.

I'm not even talking about finishing the game. I talking about meeting any goals you need resources for.

[samthedigital]

8 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I'm not even talking about finishing the game. I talking about meeting any goals you need resources for.

Remember that we are also talking about cooking which is an even stronger example of randomness that I don't care for. In any case as I've said previously my goals are predicated on how much I'm willing to reset and based on what the game gives me and on time. The game might us enough to capture some units, but it's impossible to know if I'll have enough to capture an extra unit or have enough materials at a specific time because it is random.

[Jotari]

3 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

Remember that we are also talking about cooking which is an even stronger example of randomness that I don't care for. In any case as I've said previously my goals are predicated on how much I'm willing to reset and based on what the game gives me and on time. The game might us enough to capture some units, but it's impossible to know if I'll have enough to capture an extra unit or have enough materials at a specific time because it is random.

You will. Just play well. Use Keaton if you have to.

Edited August 18, 2023 by Jotari

[samthedigital]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

You will. Just play well.

You don't know that.

[Jotari]

3 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

You don't know that.

I do. Because, as I've said, I have played this game multiple times and only ever used the social media features to check how they work. This is not hunting for shiny Pokemon. It's classic Fire Emblem FOMO. The game gives you more than enough.

Edited August 18, 2023 by Jotari

[samthedigital]

Just now, Jotari said:

I do. Because, as I've said, I have played this game multiple times and only ever used the social media features to check how they work.

And I haven't? That's not an argument; I see it as more of an insult than anything. Go back to my comparison with randomized classes. I'm sure that you can find some form of randomness that you don't like, and if so you'll agree with the point that I'm making.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Personally, I was thinking more in terms of Ross having promoted at level 10; whilst a later promotion is more favorable to Ross, getting to level 20 before promotion would practically require grinding. 

Hm, I don't really view 10/20 Ross by chapter 11 as impossible without Valni grinding, although it would take some dedicated focus. Getting a 10/10 Ross by that point, conversely, could be pulled off by just about anyone. Actually, how does Ross look at 10/10/1 and 10/10/20?

Spoiler

HP: 33, 46

STR: 17, 26

SKL: 9, 15

SPD: 10, 16

DEF: 10, 15

RES: 5, 9

CON: 13, 13

So, in this case, they actually look pretty tight. The only substantial differences are Dozla's higher Con and HP, versus Ross's higher Luck. Everything else is pretty much a wash. If I'm taking availability into account, I'm probably still calling Ross the better unit, for having some slight contributions in the earlygame. But these two are tighter than I had imagined at first.

7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Personally, I'd say Amelia, largely because she has Paladin access. Admittedly, though, one does have other Paladin options.

Ah, I see. Now, I would agree that Paladin is a better overall class than any of Ross' final promotions. But as you said, there are a lot of them. And how do her stats look, again assuming an early promo (10/10/1, 10/10/20)?

Spoiler

HP: 28, 40

STR: 11, 17

SKL: 13, 20

SPD: 15, 22

LCK: 15, 24

DEF: 8, 14

RES: 9, 12

CON: 9, 9

So, while her Skill, Speed, and Luck are all pretty good, she's unfortunately deficient elsewhere. She's pretty equivalent to an early-promoted Forde, but joining later, and being harder to raise. Also, despite her lower Con, sexist horses mean her Aid, 11, will be lower than any other Paladins.

Still, just looking at raw numbers, and the movement difference between the classes, I can see the case that Amelia has a higher "ceiling" than Ross. Of course, that's not the full picture. By the end of her joining chapter, you can have an Ocean Seal, and plausibly have a 10/10/1 Ross. Between those two, at that point, there's no comparison. Ross is a competent combat unit, whereas Amelia bursts into flames if an enemy looks at her the wrong way. She can catch up - either via the Tower, or by stabbing Clerics and Archers to death - but even so, she spends a while playing "catch-up".

In any case, I would say Paladin and Berserker are usually filling different roles. If you want someone to put on a mountain tile and lob a Hand Axe at hordes of enemies, Berserker is the ideal pick. But Paladin has more mobility, and can provide Rescue-Carry support, while doing decent work with a Javelin in their own right. Thing is, Amelia is likely the worst of five potential Paladins, while Ross is roughly tied with just one other Berserker.

Interestingly, I think there might be a better argument for Ewan as the best trainee. Although he joins later than Amelia, his access to Fire means he can more easily attack without fear of counter-attack. While he'll still struggle through first-tier, he has the option of Summoner in second-tier. This makes him one of just two units with the power to summon Phantoms, which is great for manipulating enemy AI. Plus, he can provide staff support, which is handy regardless of his combat stats.

In any case, I still think Ross is the best of the three, by merit of not being totally overpowered at jointime. I can see the case that Amelia and Ewan both have a higher ceiling in what they offer, sure. But they're much harder to raise up, and get online far later. As such, Ross can do more for me over the case of a given run, than either of the other two. This is assuming a no-Valni, no-Creature-Campaign run, that is.

[Jotari]

6 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

And I haven't? That's not an argument; I see it as more of an insult than anything. Go back to my comparison with randomized classes. I'm sure that you can find some form of randomness that you don't like, and if so you'll agree with the point that I'm making.

We're not talking about randomness as a whole. We're talking about this specific randomness. And that matters. I have brought up another randomness, specifically shiny pokemon (though honestly I wouldn't say I don't like that). That is an incredible rare event. One in several hundred thousand or something. Players can go through entire playthroughts without ever seeing one. Getting a cabbage or a daikon is not that. You are guaranteed resources, a lot of them, and you will get the ones you need, and if you know how to manage them you will be able to utilize them in any way you need even if the RNG is against you. The randomness can be compensated for. That you are unwilling to try to compensate does not mean it cannot be done. I'm not trying to insult you, but that's the plain truth. If it was not possible to compensate for then I would have experienced a resource shortage, but I never have. And it's not because I'm exceptionally lucky, it's because if there's a resource I need to conserve, use or trade then I do so.

[samthedigital]

26 minutes ago, Jotari said:

That you are unwilling to try to compensate does not mean it cannot be done. I'm not trying to insult you, but that's the plain truth.

You have insinuated multiple times that I can't account for the randomness.

26 minutes ago, Jotari said:

You are guaranteed resources, a lot of them, and you will get the ones you need, and if you know how to manage them you will be able to utilize them in any way you need even if the RNG is against you.

What we're not guaranteed is knowledge of exactly how many resources we get, so if we want to capture a certain number of units or reach a specific stat breakpoint for a chapter it's impossible to plan for it because of the randomness.

26 minutes ago, Jotari said:

We're not talking about randomness as a whole. We're talking about this specific randomness.

We are talking about how a certain kind of randomness can influence a player's decision making process, and hopefully you can agree that the inherent randomness in cooking and the arena does influence that to some degree.

edit:

Quote

The randomness can be compensated for. That you are unwilling to try to compensate does not mean it cannot be done.

If you're compensating for bad RNG then you're going to play the game differently or use slightly altered strategies right? That's my point; I prefer to have more agency over the matter. Conquest is generally good about this, but not always.

Edited August 18, 2023 by samthedigital

[Jotari]

15 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

You have insinuated multiple times that I can't account for the randomness.

What we're not guaranteed is knowledge of exactly how many resources we get, so if we want to capture a certain number of units or reach a specific stat breakpoint for a chapter it's impossible to plan for it because of the randomness.

We are talking about how a certain kind of randomness can influence a player's decision making process, and hopefully you can agree that the inherent randomness in cooking and the arena does influence that to some degree.

I don't think you can't account for the randomness. I think you're unwilling to try to account for the randomness because of the existence of randomness. I'm not trying to insult you, it's a simple fact that you have an issue with this and I don't. And there are only two possible reasons for this. Either I am playing the game better than you, or I am phenomenally lucky in comparison to you. And I don't think it's likely to be the latter.