What is your unpopular Fire Emblem opinion?

[lenticular]

The worst Lord is Judith. Her availability is dreadful.

(My unpopular opinion is that it's past time for us as a fandom to collectively stop using the word "Lord" to refer to main protagonists.)

[Jotari]

43 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

I'll admit that I'm a little confused. I'm referring to Ike being able to take a few hits before dying and not his weapon durability. I'm not saying that he doesn't have some other things over Roy, but some of it depends on playstyle. Cross game comparisons are often tricky if both units are actually useful too; I don't really have any strong feelings about the two personally even if people have made that particular argument.

Oh, that does make a bit more sense (though I think the earlier promotion is a lot more noticable, even if Ike's ability to take a hit might functionally be a bigger boon in objectively), though I think I already kind of addressed that with the whole "Is Ike better or is PoR just easier?"

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

17 hours ago, lenticular said:

My unpopular opinion is that it's past time for us as a fandom to collectively stop using the word "Lord" to refer to main protagonists.)

Too true. Is Micaiah a "Lord"? How about Corrin? They never occupy a class with that name, even though they're "main characters".

Incidental to this point - I'm not sure how I feel about "Lord" as a gender-neutral class designation. Lyn was the first female unit to get this designation - even though, in-narrative, she's formally called "Lady Lyndis". Likewise for Eirika (although in her case, "Princess" is the proper title). It comes across as a case of "masculine form = default". At the same time, though, I'm reluctant to enforce a strict gender binary, so...

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

On 7/17/2024 at 3:41 PM, Jotari said:

I'm not sure exactly what you're actually saying her. But if it's that frailty is irrelevant to players who reset then I'd still disagree. As I still value the time I spend playing the game and the fewer resets I need to make the better.

Ah, but you see, they make you play more Fire Emblem, and you enjoy playing Fire Emblam, thus they are actually extremely good, yes? *taps forehead*

59 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Too true. Is Micaiah a "Lord"? How about Corrin? They never occupy a class with that name, even though they're "main characters".

Incidental to this point - I'm not sure how I feel about "Lord" as a gender-neutral class designation. Lyn was the first female unit to get this designation - even though, in-narrative, she's formally called "Lady Lyndis". Likewise for Eirika (although in her case, "Princess" is the proper title). It comes across as a case of "masculine form = default". At the same time, though, I'm reluctant to enforce a strict gender binary, so...

Let´s change it to Glorious Influental Person of the Presumably Good People. Actually, scratch the good, that too carries implications and change it to Glorious Influental Person of the Blue Units.

... then again, colourblind people are gonna hate this one. Damn.

[samthedigital]

20 hours ago, Jotari said:

Oh, that does make a bit more sense (though I think the earlier promotion is a lot more noticable, even if Ike's ability to take a hit might functionally be a bigger boon in objectively), though I think I already kind of addressed that with the whole "Is Ike better or is PoR just easier?"

I'm not sure that I would find Ike to be that much worse even if he promoted later honestly. The lack of enemy quality can hurt him as much as it helps him. If mounted units are getting there first Ike is useless regardless of his stats, and I find that this tends to happen a lot in PoR, but a lot of it is playstyle dependant.

Edited July 18 by samthedigital

[Samz707]

On 7/17/2024 at 6:44 AM, Shadow Mir said:

Because I'm too lazy to make a new thread asking this... To anyone who actually has been in the community, what is the consensus on the worst lord in the series?? Is it still Roy??

Gameplay-wise, probably.

 

Story-wise is either Chrom or Corrin depending if Corrin being an avatar disqualifies them or not for me personally.

[Jotari]

6 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Too true. Is Micaiah a "Lord"? How about Corrin? They never occupy a class with that name, even though they're "main characters".

Incidental to this point - I'm not sure how I feel about "Lord" as a gender-neutral class designation. Lyn was the first female unit to get this designation - even though, in-narrative, she's formally called "Lady Lyndis". Likewise for Eirika (although in her case, "Princess" is the proper title). It comes across as a case of "masculine form = default". At the same time, though, I'm reluctant to enforce a strict gender binary, so...

Isn't naturally trending our language towards gender neutrality not a good goal? And, wouldn't it be just a tiny bit weird if Lyn's class was Lady? I mean, Lady doesn't quite connotate the same vibes. While we're on this subject, an FYI for everyone, Edelgard's prf class Emperor uses the gender neutral (or masculine form = default) name in Three Houses. It works kind of well for her character because a large point of her character is that she's seizing power for herself (even though she's being manipulated by shadowy elements that practically raised her to be this way), but it's not actually a point of characterization in the Japanese original where her class name is the female Kaizerin. However, in Japanese Sanaki's Empress Class has the gender neutral (or masculine form = default) of Kaizer. So in Japanese Edelgard is an Empress while Sanaki is an Emperor (in German they have the same class, they're both Kaizerin).

Edited July 18 by Jotari

[lenticular]

6 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Incidental to this point - I'm not sure how I feel about "Lord" as a gender-neutral class designation. Lyn was the first female unit to get this designation - even though, in-narrative, she's formally called "Lady Lyndis". Likewise for Eirika (although in her case, "Princess" is the proper title). It comes across as a case of "masculine form = default". At the same time, though, I'm reluctant to enforce a strict gender binary, so...

On the one hand, yeah, I do find it a little bit strange that Lyn, Eirika and Lucina are all Lords. But on the other hand, this is the aristocracy that we're talking about and aristocracy is weird. As an example of a real-world female Lord, Queen Elizabeth was Lord of Mann rather than Lady of Mann (as well as being Duke of Lancaster, rather than Duchess, in a similar example). Sometimes, you've just got to just shrug and go with it.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

And, wouldn't it be just a tiny bit weird if Lyn's class was Lady? I mean, Lady doesn't quite connotate the same vibes.

Is it any worse than "Lord"? They're both titles conveying noble status, usually of a less-than-royal sort. And while "Lord" can have implications of power (i.e. "warlords"), the Fire Emblem Lords rarely have that sort of reputation. Their title comes from their birthright, not from, say, seeing their many enemies slaughtered at their feet.

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Isn't naturally trending our language towards gender neutrality not a good goal?

Obviously, which language trends are "good" or "bad" is a subjective matter. I'm certainly not opposed to such a trend, especialy when it generates a new, obviously-neutral form (i.e. "firefighter" versus "fireman"). Not that I'm against anyone being a "fireman" (or a "firewoman"), but a new neutral form is, in my book, a net win. Having said that, in most cases, it's "the masculine form becomes the default". So Veronica Taylor can be called a voice actor OR voice actress, whereas Dan Woren can only be called a voice actor. So the terminology "actor" is simultaneously "gender-neutral" and "masculine-coded". I dunno, it just has a real "Second Sex" energy to it. Like "if we're gonna preserve one form, of course it's the male one! That's the more important one!"

2 hours ago, lenticular said:

On the one hand, yeah, I do find it a little bit strange that Lyn, Eirika and Lucina are all Lords. But on the other hand, this is the aristocracy that we're talking about and aristocracy is weird. As an example of a real-world female Lord, Queen Elizabeth was Lord of Mann rather than Lady of Mann (as well as being Duke of Lancaster, rather than Duchess, in a similar example). Sometimes, you've just got to just shrug and go with it.

Interesting, I didn't know those bits. I did know about Jadwiga, King of Poland, so it's not just the Brits. Also, there's the weirdness where "a King's wife is necessarily a Queen, whereas a Queen's husband is not necessarily a King". Like, the notion of "King Consort" is just a non-starter in some cultures.

So, I won't deny that royal or noble titles can mismatch gendered expectations. At the same time, though, it's not as though Lyn is called "Lord Lyndis" in narrative. If she were, the "Lord" class would perfectly match with the story. But because she's "Lady Lyndis", there's a certain sort of dissonance created.

My gut prefence is "give main characters whatever their in-story title is as their class name". A great example is Celica - she starts as a Priestess, but once she "comes out" as the daughter of King Lima, her class changes to Princess. PoR handled this well, too - sure, Ike becomes a Lord, but only after being knighted by Princess Elincia. Before that, he was a Ranger (kinda arbitrary, I'da gone with "Mercenary"), which conveys his ignoble upbringing. 

So Eliwood and Hector can remain Lords, while Lyn switches to Lady. Their promotions could stay the same (obviously Lyn going "Blade Lady"... "Bladey"). Or they could go with "Pheraean Lord", "Ostian Lord", and "Lady of Caelin". As for Eirika and Ephraim, I'd actually switch them over to "Princess" and "Prince". Or make that their post-promo class, after starting as "Lady" and "Lord". IDK, this is definitely getting into the woods, and I could go all day. Just my general thoughts on this bit of weirdness!

[Jotari]

37 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Is it any worse than "Lord"? They're both titles conveying noble status, usually of a less-than-royal sort. And while "Lord" can have implications of power (i.e. "warlords"), the Fire Emblem Lords rarely have that sort of reputation. Their title comes from their birthright, not from, say, seeing their many enemies slaughtered at their feet.

Yes. Because when I think lord, I think of someone who owns a castle. When I think lady, I think of someone in a lavish dress. If anything I'd say in functional use of language nowadays the male variation of lady isn't lord, it's gentlemen. Lord is used in gender neutral way in a lot of places outside of Fire Emblem. Like, I know the Lord High Chancellor is a position of some sort, and with a quick google search I see it's a British position currently held by a woman named Shabana Mahmood. I really don't see an issue with lords being gender neutral as the reality is kind of that lord was a specific position of authority that men held and ladies were the wives of those men, except outside of non standard circumstances. So lords and ladies kind of are different on a conceptual level and we kind of match them together because we want a matching set of words. True, if a widow with no male heirs happened to administer the lands or something she probably would have been called lady and not lord, but she would have been the lady acting as the lord. Because it's not really an actor actress situation, it's a case where in the time period men and women were expected to have very different roles in society.

Another example we'd have here is a knight. Do you find it weird or unequal in some way that knight is the default word given to characters like Wendy when we actually have a female equivalent in the form of Dame? I'd doubt it because knight is solidly engrained in our minds as the armoured fighter and jouster type warrior regardless of gender while dame is just...Judi Dench.

37 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

So, I won't deny that royal or noble titles can mismatch gendered expectations. At the same time, though, it's not as though Lyn is called "Lord Lyndis" in narrative. If she were, the "Lord" class would perfectly match with the story. But because she's "Lady Lyndis", there's a certain sort of dissonance created.

My gut prefence is "give main characters whatever their in-story title is as their class name". A great example is Celica - she starts as a Priestess, but once she "comes out" as the daughter of King Lima, her class changes to Princess. PoR handled this well, too - sure, Ike becomes a Lord, but only after being knighted by Princess Elincia. Before that, he was a Ranger (kinda arbitrary, I'da gone with "Mercenary"), which conveys his ignoble upbringing. 

So Eliwood and Hector can remain Lords, while Lyn switches to Lady. Their promotions could stay the same (obviously Lyn going "Blade Lady"... "Bladey"). Or they could go with "Pheraean Lord", "Ostian Lord", and "Lady of Caelin". As for Eirika and Ephraim, I'd actually switch them over to "Princess" and "Prince". Or make that their post-promo class, after starting as "Lady" and "Lord". IDK, this is definitely getting into the woods, and I could go all day. Just my general thoughts on this bit of weirdness!

Full agreement on Ike. He should have had the mercenary class. Especially since there are no actual Mercenaries in Tellius (as a class, I mean). And giving him Ranger just makes wikis weird as Ranger was previously a mounted sword/bow class. I also think he could have been Mercenary->Hero in Radiant Dawn, which would have functionally matched the standard weapon lines of mercenaries that Ike follows (but, I guess by calling it Vanguard they get to market it as something cool and new).

On this overall subject though, your wish has come true, hasn't it? Fire Embelm protagonists have not been consistently called Lords in years. By in wide the protagonists classes in modern Fire Emblem have shifted from "lord" to "descriptive title" like "Nohr Prince" and "Divine Dragon". The last traditional lord protagonist was Chrom back in Awakening, and even then it wasn't his exclusive protagonist class as he shared it with Lucina. Likewise the Fodlan House leaders have it only as a class option legacy call back (and they'r enot even the protagonists) while their actual associated personal classes are things like Barbarossa and Emperor (though admittedly Dimitri leans on the lord branding with High Lord and Great Lord, and Edelgard's middle prf is Armoured Lord, but that sucks to begin with and shouldn't have existed). I know I've contradicted myself by pointing out all the weirdness of Three Houses classes, but I think the heart of my point is still true, that they no longer refer to the protagonist in their tier 1 class as lord any more and opt for more specific designators.

Edited July 19 by Jotari

[lenticular]

On 7/19/2024 at 3:29 AM, Jotari said:

Yes. Because when I think lord, I think of someone who owns a castle. When I think lady, I think of someone in a lavish dress. If anything I'd say in functional use of language nowadays the male variation of lady isn't lord, it's gentlemen. Lord is used in gender neutral way in a lot of places outside of Fire Emblem. Like, I know the Lord High Chancellor is a position of some sort, and with a quick google search I see it's a British position currently held by a woman named Shabana Mahmood. I really don't see an issue with lords being gender neutral as the reality is kind of that lord was a specific position of authority that men held and ladies were the wives of those men, except outside of non standard circumstances. So lords and ladies kind of are different on a conceptual level and we kind of match them together because we want a matching set of words. True, if a widow with no male heirs happened to administer the lands or something she probably would have been called lady and not lord, but she would have been the lady acting as the lord. Because it's not really an actor actress situation, it's a case where in the time period men and women were expected to have very different roles in society.

The "what you first think of" test is usually a fairly tenuous one, because it can vary so much from person to person, especially when we're looking cross culturally. To me, when I think Lord, I think of a politician, because of the British House of Lords. Where, incidentally, the most common way I hear female members of the House of Lords referred to is "Baroness". So, David Cameron gets called "Lord Cameron" but Betty Boothroyd was called "Baroness Boothroyd" for instance. Despite the fact that the men are granted the title of Baron. Apparently, this form of address is to better distinguish between women who hold the title in their own right, as opposed to the wives of Barons, who would still be referred to as Lady? I don't know. Aristocracy is weird and their rules are arcane and nonsensical.

But there is an elephant in the room here: almost none of Fire Emblem's protagonist really should be getting referred to as Lord, regardless of their gender. Lord is for relatively minor members of the nobility, and an awful lot of Fire Emblem protagonists are Princes and Princesses. "Lord" (or "Lady") is probably right for the newly ennobled Ike, and for the Elibean crew who are sons/granddaughter of Marquesses and Dukes, but if we're referring to Marth, Ephraim, Dimitri, Alcryst, Chrom, etc. as "Lord" then that's probably a pretty grave insult.

On 7/19/2024 at 2:59 AM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

My gut prefence is "give main characters whatever their in-story title is as their class name". A great example is Celica - she starts as a Priestess, but once she "comes out" as the daughter of King Lima, her class changes to Princess. PoR handled this well, too - sure, Ike becomes a Lord, but only after being knighted by Princess Elincia. Before that, he was a Ranger (kinda arbitrary, I'da gone with "Mercenary"), which conveys his ignoble upbringing. 

This is also my preference, and I'm glad that this is the direction that Fire Emblem has largely gone recently. If nothing else, it also feels cooler to give protagonists a class that really sounds unique. I'm sure there are a ton of different Lords in any Fire Emblem world, but there's only one Princess Crimea, for instance.

On 7/19/2024 at 3:29 AM, Jotari said:

Another example we'd have here is a knight. Do you find it weird or unequal in some way that knight is the default word given to characters like Wendy when we actually have a female equivalent in the form of Dame? I'd doubt it because knight is solidly engrained in our minds as the armoured fighter and jouster type warrior regardless of gender while dame is just...Judi Dench.

With knights, I'm far too busy being baffled that they've chosen that word to describe an infantry class when knights were historically almost exclusively cavalry to start wondering about gendered terminology.

Which is fairly common across Fire Emblem, honestly. An awful lot of familiar terms don't make a whole lot of sense if you stop and think about them. Myrmidon is another one that gives me a headache and that I'd like to see changed, but the conventions are so deeply ingrained at this point that I'm not holding my breath for any of them. But on the other hand, Engage finally saw canto get renamed, so maybe there is still hope.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

On 7/18/2024 at 10:29 PM, Jotari said:

(but, I guess by calling it Vanguard they get to market it as something cool and new).

Apparently Ike is a comrade. Who knew?

On 7/18/2024 at 10:29 PM, Jotari said:

Yes. Because when I think lord, I think of someone who owns a castle. When I think lady, I think of someone in a lavish dress. If anything I'd say in functional use of language nowadays the male variation of lady isn't lord, it's gentlemen.

As @lenticular said, this is gonna be different for every person. When I hear "Lady", my first thought is "Lady of the Lake". She's a character of significance in her own right, apart from whoever she's married to (apparently Pelleas? Go figure). A modern audience might think of Margaret Thatcher, the "Iron Lady" - without derailing too hard into politics, a woman of clear influence and impact. Perhaps these are the exceptions, but at the very least, "Lady = wife of someone with actual power" is far from universal. I do agree that "Gentlemen" is the most common analogue nowadays, but it's not like "Lords and Ladies" is unheard of. Anyway, it makes me ponder a parallel universe where "Lords and Gentlewomen" is the standard of address.

On 7/18/2024 at 10:29 PM, Jotari said:

Another example we'd have here is a knight. Do you find it weird or unequal in some way that knight is the default word given to characters like Wendy when we actually have a female equivalent in the form of Dame?

No, because I don't see "Dame" as the distaff counterpart of "Knight", but rather, of "Sir". We compare "Dame Judi Dench" to "Sir Ian McKellen", not "Knight Ian McKellen". "Dame" and "Sir" are forms of address, whereas "Knight" is the profession. So if "Sir Bors" is a Knight, I see no reason why "Dame Wendy" cannot be one as well.*

*Lookimg imto this - apparently "Dame" is both the title, and the position, for women? Whereas men have "Sir" and "Knight" as separate terms? So I'm probably wrong about this. But whatever, in fiction I don't really see "knight" as an explicitly-gendered term.

40 minutes ago, lenticular said:

Where, incidentally, the most common way I hear female members of the House of Lords referred to is "Baroness".

Huh, did not know that. Incidentally, my understanding is that "Baron/ess" is thd lowest noble rank. So those are probably the "easiest" to give away to someone, in order to give them noble rank.

45 minutes ago, lenticular said:

But there is an elephant in the room here: almost none of Fire Emblem's protagonist really should be getting referred to as Lord, regardless of their gender. Lord is for relatively minor members of the nobility, and an awful lot of Fire Emblem protagonists are Princes and Princesses.

I would still retain the Elibean main characters as "Lords" (and "Lady"). None of them are children of a King or Queen, but rather, of a Marquess. But yeah, most of the others (who are noble) receive the title of Prince(ss) in narrative. Sigurd might also be an exception, as Chalphy is a duchy, rather than Kingdom. This could also apply to Seliph, except he arguably gets "Prince" status via his mother.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, lenticular said:

The "what you first think of" test is usually a fairly tenuous one, because it can vary so much from person to person, especially when we're looking cross culturally. To me, when I think Lord, I think of a politician, because of the British House of Lords. Where, incidentally, the most common way I hear female members of the House of Lords referred to is "Baroness". So, David Cameron gets called "Lord Cameron" but Betty Boothroyd was called "Baroness Boothroyd" for instance. Despite the fact that the men are granted the title of Baron. Apparently, this form of address is to better distinguish between women who hold the title in their own right, as opposed to the wives of Barons, who would still be referred to as Lady? I don't know. Aristocracy is weird and their rules are arcane and nonsensical.

Well I was just giving my own initial thoughts. Naturally everyone's will be different. But that is moot because....

1 hour ago, lenticular said:

But there is an elephant in the room here: almost none of Fire Emblem's protagonist really should be getting referred to as Lord, regardless of their gender. Lord is for relatively minor members of the nobility, and an awful lot of Fire Emblem protagonists are Princes and Princesses. "Lord" (or "Lady") is probably right for the newly ennobled Ike, and for the Elibean crew who are sons/granddaughter of Marquesses and Dukes, but if we're referring to Marth, Ephraim, Dimitri, Alcryst, Chrom, etc. as "Lord" then that's probably a pretty grave insult.

You are absolutely correct on this. Marth was the one who started all this trend. Really his class should have been prince. Maybe they figured because he was in exile lord was better? Sigurd and Seliph then continued the trend with Knight Lord and the pretty silly Jr Lord. After that Roy and his soft Archanea reboot codified it until avatars (and a lesser extend RD) came around and altered the paradigm.

1 hour ago, lenticular said:

With knights, I'm far too busy being baffled that they've chosen that word to describe an infantry class when knights were historically almost exclusively cavalry to start wondering about gendered terminology.

Which is fairly common across Fire Emblem, honestly. An awful lot of familiar terms don't make a whole lot of sense if you stop and think about them. Myrmidon is another one that gives me a headache and that I'd like to see changed, but the conventions are so deeply ingrained at this point that I'm not holding my breath for any of them. But on the other hand, Engage finally saw canto get renamed, so maybe there is still hope.

Even within Fire Emblem itself the characters who are narratively knights, like Seth, are usually cavalry. Though, at least in the Japanese, I think, the knight class has always been called armoured knight, which is a bit more specific.

30 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

But whatever, in fiction I don't really see "knight" as an explicitly-gendered term.

And likewise I don't see lord as an explicitly gendered term in fiction either, for all the reasons given.

30 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Huh, did not know that. Incidentally, my understanding is that "Baron/ess" is thd lowest noble rank. So those are probably the "easiest" to give away to someone, in order to give them noble rank.

I would still retain the Elibean main characters as "Lords" (and "Lady"). None of them are children of a King or Queen, but rather, of a Marquess. But yeah, most of the others (who are noble) receive the title of Prince(ss) in narrative. Sigurd might also be an exception, as Chalphy is a duchy, rather than Kingdom. This could also apply to Seliph, except he arguably gets "Prince" status via his mother.

I think technically they'd all be called masters? Not super sure, but I think the child of a noble who has yet to inherit their parent's noble title is simply called Master Roy etc.

Edited July 20 by Jotari

[lenticular]

7 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I think technically they'd all be called masters? Not super sure, but I think the child of a noble who has yet to inherit their parent's noble title is simply called Master Roy etc.

My understanding is that (prior to their accession) Eliwood (eldest son of a Marquess) should be Lord Pherae, Hector (younger son of a Marquess) should be Lord Hector, and Lyn (granddaughter of a Duke) probably actually should be Lady Lyndis. Probably. But the exact intricacies of address do tend to vary from place to place and time to time, so I don't really mind them taking slight liberties here.

21 minutes ago, Jotari said:

You are absolutely correct on this. Marth was the one who started all this trend. Really his class should have been prince. Maybe they figured because he was in exile lord was better?

What word is used in Japanese? Looking at the wiki, it looks like they just went with a transliteration of the English word? Am I reading that right? I can certainly see it being less important if they were just going for "cool sounding English word" originally. And then I can see how the translators chose to go with Lord, especially given that BlaBla was the first localised game, and it was accurate there. And then it just stuck.

28 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Even within Fire Emblem itself the characters who are narratively knights, like Seth, are usually cavalry. Though, at least in the Japanese, I think, the knight class has always been called armoured knight, which is a bit more specific.

Armoured knight is a step up in naming, for sure. Though quite a few characters who are gameplay-knights are narrative-knights as well, aren't they? Oswin, Gilliam, I think Draug? Out of curiosity, a question for anyone with more knowledge of military history than I have: was "infantry soldier in full plate" ever actually a thing in the real world? My understanding is that plate armour was expensive and so typically restricted to the elites, who were all generally fighting from horseback.

[Jotari]

Made a thread for fun speculation on alternate class names for Lord

 

[Eltosian Kadath]

3 hours ago, lenticular said:

Out of curiosity, a question for anyone with more knowledge of military history than I have: was "infantry soldier in full plate" ever actually a thing in the real world? My understanding is that plate armour was expensive and so typically restricted to the elites, who were all generally fighting from horseback.

It kind of depends on if you just how strict you are meaning with "full plate", or if you simply mean heavily armored. It was quite common by the 16th century for European infantry to go into battle with three-quarters plate for instance, and there are a fair number of regions and time periods where full plate wasn't used in general, but the infantry were the more heavily armored group. Also its easier to lose horses than the armor you are wearing, leaving those former cavalry in full plate on foot (the Hundreds years war was particularly viscous about this at time, with accounts of the French losing more than 30,000 horse in one of their more disastrous campaigns, and numerous accounts of how successfully English archer managed to kill the French Knight's horses).

While it was rarer than the more iconic lamellar, and laminar style armors, Japanese Samurai did wear plate armor, and went into battle heavily armored, although whether or not you would consider their full plate armor to be "full plate" is probably debatable, as there are some clear stylistic difference between European and Japanese style armors. I also want to emphasize that cavalry were simply not used the same way in Japanese warfare as they were in Europe, the local horse breeds were much smaller, so the heavier armored troops couldn't be their cavalry. It is said that the cavalry charge came into existence and was made obsolete in one generation due to necessity to import heavier breeds of horses coinciding with the importation (and soon after local production) of guns.

What I feel works in spirit, if not the letter of this idea is the roman legion. Their infantry tended to wear heavier armor than their cavalry, although not plate armor their iconic segmetata (a laminar style armor), or combinations of chain mail and scale mail depending on the time period, and how rich the soldier was.

[lenticular]

18 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

It kind of depends on if you just how strict you are meaning with "full plate", or if you simply mean heavily armored.

Sweet. Thank you for the knowledge drop and taking the time to answer my question. I appreciate it.

[Shadow Mir]

On 7/17/2024 at 4:33 AM, Eltosian Kadath said:

Roy would probably be the most consistent pick, but hearing someone suggest Lyn or SD Marth wouldn't surprise me either, and a dark horse pick of Micaiah wouldn't be out of the question.

 

On 7/17/2024 at 4:52 AM, Jotari said:

All the lords in the most recent games have been very solid units. People criticize Alear, but really it's easy to build a really strong and competent Alear in Engage since your Emblem builds are far more important than stat lines. All other recent lords have been either broken or medium serviceable.

 Micaiah is better than Roy by virtue alone that she has staves. She's also far easier to level thanks to sacrifice, and while you are risking a game over putting her anywhere near combat, she can still deal decent damage with Thani.

SD Marth is honestly really hard to rate because the game pushes you to outright never use him for combat. He's always going to be too busy going to villages or, to a slightly lesser extent, chests. And that's a niche and a roll and it's pretty damn vital and centralizing to the game, so it's pretty subjective to say "he sucks because he's busy doing this" or "he's great because he can do this". In either case, even on hard five, I don't feel like it's as difficult to keep him alive compares to Roy/Lyn/Micaiah who can all suddenly cause a game over from a stray bolting or ballista shot. And if you really want Marth to contribute to combat then he can, even untrained. Since Shadow Dragon is all about that forged effective weapon damage. Rapier might not be as much if a meme as Wingspear but it can still absolutely kill things with a few points from a forge.

Lyn is the closest to Roy in gameplay, unsurprising given the same engine, but she still has some distinct advantages over him. Most noticeably that you don't actually have to deploy her for most chapters. But also if you use her in Lyn mode then she will get enough stats to contribute well for quite a while in Hector or Eliwood mode. Her promotion, if you actually want to use her, also comes much earlier than Roy's and gives her bow access which is quite a boon.

So, yeah, I would say Roy is still in first place as a uniquely bad Lord. But he's also not quite as bad as people make out either. He can certainly contribute, take hits and double enemies. He also uses swords in a game where swords are probably the best weapon type and his promotion gains are pretty huge and the Binding Blade is a tonne of fun to use giving him both range, super high might and defensive boosts. He's just dragged down phenomenally by his very poor and very long middle game when you've just his level cap and he's just not promoting or getting stronger while everyone around him enemy and ally alike are. He just needs to be written off as basically useless all the way from when you first see Zephiel, up until you fight Zephiel.

I see. I have seen people suggesting Roy's support list makes him decent, but personally, I am very skeptical of this, as less than half of his support options are particularly good units, and all of those are mounted units.

Re: SD Marth: I'd say what makes him bad is him getting screwed over by the game's changes more than anything else. In the original games, weapon weight actually mattered, the weapon triangle didn't exist yet, not everyone could get a class upgrade, and stat caps were only 20. SD made weight mostly a non-factor, added the weapon triangle (to Marth's detriment, as axes are virtually nonexistent after the early chapters), made promotion nigh universal (the classes that are exceptions get an extra 10 levels; this doesn't help his case), and increased stat caps. Also of note, the game added the Wing Spear, which is the Rapier on steroids. On top of all this, Marth doesn't even do great against the final boss, especially on anything above Normal, as then it's highly likely (or guaranteed, on H2 or higher) he's getting doubled.

[Jotari]

45 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

 

I see. I have seen people suggesting Roy's support list makes him decent, but personally, I am very skeptical of this, as less than half of his support options are particularly good units, and all of those are mounted units.

Re: SD Marth: I'd say what makes him bad is him getting screwed over by the game's changes more than anything else. In the original games, weapon weight actually mattered, the weapon triangle didn't exist yet, not everyone could get a class upgrade, and stat caps were only 20. SD made weight mostly a non-factor, added the weapon triangle (to Marth's detriment, as axes are virtually nonexistent after the early chapters), made promotion nigh universal (the classes that are exceptions get an extra 10 levels; this doesn't help his case), and increased stat caps. Also of note, the game added the Wing Spear, which is the Rapier on steroids. On top of all this, Marth doesn't even do great against the final boss, especially on anything above Normal, as then it's highly likely (or guaranteed, on H2 or higher) he's getting doubled.

I would say most of the changes made on the DS are actually to Martha's benefit than his detriment. He's still better on the NES, but that's more down to enemies just straight up sucking in that game. But his combat is honestly a moot point because you'll rarely ever actually end up sending him into combat.

[Shadow Mir]

On 7/21/2024 at 8:01 PM, Jotari said:

I would say most of the changes made on the DS are actually to Martha's benefit than his detriment. He's still better on the NES, but that's more down to enemies just straight up sucking in that game. But his combat is honestly a moot point because you'll rarely ever actually end up sending him into combat.

Um, how do they benefit him??? Because I really ain't seeing it.

...anyway, besides Wendy, Sophia and Lyre, who are other units considered among the absolute worst in the series??

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Um, how do they benefit him??? Because I really ain't seeing it.

Because he can now forge rapiers to kill any horse or armour. He gets ten extra levels of growth he didn't have before, and he gets dedicated prologue chapters to use them.

[Etrurian emperor]

Not unpopular per se, but more a topic few if any will have strong stances on.

I think Clanne and Framme are among the better designed twins in the series. You can instantly spot they're twins without them looking the exact same like Lugh and Raigh, Being gender swapped versions of each other like the Morgans, or not looking alike at all like Kaze and Saizo. Its a very nice balance they struck between looking like siblings and looking like themselves. 

To further compliment them the twins dress in different ways that reflects their personality. The casual Framme wears shorts and a cute hat while the more dutiful Clanne wears more formal robes. 

None of its huge stuff, but its nice that its there. 

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Not unpopular per se, but more a topic few if any will have strong stances on.

I think Clanne and Framme are among the better designed twins in the series. You can instantly spot they're twins without them looking the exact same like Lugh and Raigh, Being gender swapped versions of each other like the Morgans, or not looking alike at all like Kaze and Saizo. Its a very nice balance they struck between looking like siblings and looking like themselves. 

To further compliment them the twins dress in different ways that reflects their personality. The casual Framme wears shorts and a cute hat while the more dutiful Clanne wears more formal robes. 

None of its huge stuff, but its nice that its there. 

Would be nicer if they actually had good personalities to go along with the design.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

On 8/11/2024 at 6:37 PM, Etrurian emperor said:

the exact same like Lugh and Raigh

Identical twins

On 8/11/2024 at 6:37 PM, Etrurian emperor said:

Being gender swapped versions of each other like the Morgans

Not so much "twins" as "counterparts"

On 8/11/2024 at 9:12 PM, Jotari said:

or not looking alike at all like Kaze and Saizo

Fraternal twins

Like, I don't have an issue with Clanne and Framme's aesthetic. I actually really enjoy their color schemes. But the other pairs mentioned just represent different sorts of twins, or not twins at all. Not "inferior" or "superior" IMO, so much as... different.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Fraternal twins

Like, I don't have an issue with Clanne and Framme's aesthetic. I actually really enjoy their color schemes. But the other pairs mentioned just represent different sorts of twins, or not twins at all. Not "inferior" or "superior" IMO, so much as... different.

But why did it say you were quoting me when I never said that :0

2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Not so much "twins" as "counterparts"

Is kind of strange to hone on the Morgans as if they're twins. They're no different than any other Avatar gendered pair. Well, I guess unlike most versions they actually exist alongside each other in Future Past.

Edited August 14 by Jotari