[DATAMINE] Ike May Actually Be Bad (Someone Please Prove Me Wrong)

[dragonlordsd]

So, they've announced the stat totals for the CYL units, and Ike's are... less than spectacular.

In fact, Ike's been a series of bad news since he first was announced.

In his initial announcement, he looked to easily be the best of the bunch, a completely broken unit. But with each new piece of information, he's gotten steadily worse.

First off, there was the mistranslation on his B skill, which initially implied he would be "Effective against Horses and Fliers," but an examination of the Japanese text actually revealed it to only say "Nullifies buffs on cavalry and fliers." Now, it's still possible that the English version was right and the Japanese version was wrong, but that seems... very unlikely.

Second, there has been a great deal of debate on the exact meaning of Urvans' effect, which reads "reduce consecutive damage by 80%" Again, this was initially thought to be amazing. All follow up attacks would be greatly reduced in effectiveness. But then, questions were raised on what exactly "consecutive" means. Does it only mean brave-effect weapons? Brave and desperation? Or was the original version right all along?

Finally, we get to his stat total, which is... very underwhelming.

He is literally Michalis, but with two more attack and speed. That's it. Or, to make another comparison, +spd/-def hector.... but with 10 less hp. Literally, the worst possible Hector IV.

Michalis isn't a popular unit even in flier emblem. And with his skills turning out to be less than what we originally thought, things aren't looking good for Ike.

Or have I missed something? Please let me know. Thanks.

Edited August 29, 2017 by dragonlordsd

[Thane]

Even if we assume the worst about all of Ike's skills, they are not going to make a CYL Hero bad, and he would at worst merely be "good".

[NekoKnight]

If my calculations are correct, +Atk DB3 Reinhardt does 20+4 damage to Ike. He has 39 Def when defending and virtually negates Brave weapons. He also ignores Flier and Cav buffs which means they need to fight on his level, and he has an excelerated special trigger. Even without a hyper offensive spread, he's going to be a solid wall that hits hard. I see no cause for concern.

[dragonlordsd]

6 minutes ago, Thane said:

Even if we assume the worst about all of Ike's skills, they are not going to make a CYL Hero bad, and he would at worst merely be "good".

True. I guess I should contextualize what I mean by "bad:"

I don't mean "bad" like, "Odin is just bad"

I mean "bad" like, "Seriously, when was the last time anyone saw Takumi in the arena?"

That kind of "bad."

@NekoKnightThis is very true, my main concern is that the meta will shift heavily away from Rein in favor of Bow!Lyn

Edited August 29, 2017 by dragonlordsd

[Lord_Grima]

16 minutes ago, dragonlordsd said:

First off, there was the mistranslation on his B skill, which initially implied he would be "Effective against Horses and Fliers," but an examination of the Japanese text actually revealed it to only say "Nullifies buffs on cavalry and fliers." Now, it's still possible that the English version was right and the Japanese version was wrong, but that seems... very unlikely.

Not sure about this one yet, but which ever version is correct one fact remains. Ike will be a great counter to Horse and Flier Emblem teams. 

19 minutes ago, dragonlordsd said:

Second, there has been a great deal of debate on the exact meaning of Urvans' effect, which reads "reduce consecutive damage by 80%" Again, this was initially thought to be amazing. All follow up attacks would be greatly reduced in effectiveness. But then, questions were raised on what exactly "consecutive" means. Does it only mean brave-effect weapons? Brave and desperation? Or was the original version right all along?

It says in his skill that "damage from the second attack onward is reduced by 80%". To me that sounds like all consecutive attacks are reduced, which means Quad-attacks are highly reduced.

Another note is that his A-skill, Steady Breath, gives him +4 def when attacked, and adds one to his special trigger. So, with a high cool-down special like Aether and Urvan(which reduces the cooldown by 1), Ike can quickly recharge Aether. So, that can really add with his longevity. I think he would be great with Vantage.

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

First of all, since your topic deals with datamine stuff, you might want to put that in a disclaimer in the topic title or something, lest you be murdered in your sleep.

CYL Ike isn't entirely terrible. With his unique A-skill, Steady Breath, he gets Def +4 when attacked AND Heavy Blade (on top of Urvan's Special charge -1). This puts him at 39 Def at neutral when defending, and Aether is charging crazy fast. His biggest problem is that he might want to drop Beorc's Blessing for Quick Riposte, since leaving enemies alive kinda sucks.

With Aether, if Ike gets doubled (which will happen a lot) and he has Quick Riposte, the first hit from an enemy reduces the Special counter from 4 to 3, then Ike's counterattack takes it down to 1. After his opponent's second hit, Aether will be charged, and his second QR hit will be quite painful. This works with Ignis too, and his Ignis does 31 damage.

But if you don't want to drop Beorc's Blessing for QR, you can change the Special to Bonfire, and put Quickened Pulse on him for the instant 19 damage Bonfire. 

[dragonlordsd]

6 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

First of all, since your topic deals with datamine stuff, you might want to put that in a disclaimer in the topic title or something, lest you be murdered in your sleep.

CYL Ike isn't entirely terrible. With his unique A-skill, Steady Breath, he gets Def +4 when attacked AND Heavy Blade (on top of Urvan's Special charge -1). This puts him at 39 Def at neutral when defending, and Aether is charging crazy fast. His biggest problem is that he might want to drop Beorc's Blessing for Quick Riposte, since leaving enemies alive kinda sucks.

With Aether, if Ike gets doubled (which will happen a lot) and he has Quick Riposte, the first hit from an enemy reduces the Special counter from 4 to 3, then Ike's counterattack takes it down to 1. After his opponent's second hit, Aether will be charged, and his second QR hit will be quite painful. This works with Ignis too, and his Ignis does 31 damage.

But if you don't want to drop Beorc's Blessing for QR, you can change the Special to Bonfire, and put Quickened Pulse on him for the instant 19 damage Bonfire. 

Well, I did use the word "may" in the title, as all of this is just speculation right now, but idk, may have to change it.

The hard part that I see is how exactly to stack skills on him.

He doesn't have a distant counter weapon, so he'd have to drop his unique A skill to run that (although DC may be totally irrelevant with the rise of  Bow!Lyn, so he may not even want it), but the B slot is tricky.

That's really the question for me: If he runs quick riposte, he'll lose his ability to negate Horse Buffs, and may still get wrecked by Reinhardt, even with the Urvans effect (+12 attack is not something to take lightly, and he only has 20 res)

If he doesn't run quick riposte, he's safe from horse and flier buffs, but still risks getting wrecked in straight up duels. (New Roy naturally doubles him and hits like a truck with blazing durandal)

If Urvans definitely worked on ALL follow up attacks, all the time, he'd be a lot safer, but without it, I fear he won't hit nearly hard enough.

Edited August 29, 2017 by dragonlordsd

[Rafiel's Aria]

As someone who's not a super fan of Ike, I'd say he's not going to be terrible. Maybe not the best, but not terrible. He'll have more mobility than Hector even if he's not as bulky and more stat variation than Michalis even though he can't benefit from flier buffs. (I actually like using Michalis on flier teams just because favoritism. XD) On top of that, he'll have a higher BST than normal infantry units. Skill jargon aside, his B skill and weapon are new and interesting. There's probably a chance Ike will want to run a different B skill entirely. 

Ike's not as broken as Lyn. He won't be able to fill the buff niche like Lucina. And no Distant Counter...so that's always a bummer. If you like Ike, he'll be worth pulling just to have. If you like collecting all the characters, go for it. Even if you only care about stats, you'll probably find a place for him on your roster eventually. 

I don't think I'm going to go out of my way to pull for him like I originally thought. But if I do get him it won't be a terrible day. 

[dragonlordsd]

3 minutes ago, Rafiel's Aria said:

I don't think I'm going to go out of my way to pull for him like I originally thought. But if I do get him it won't be a terrible day. 

I think this is the attitude I'm going to take. Free pick Lyn, go for Lucina or Roy, and if I get Ike, that's still a good thing.

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

6 minutes ago, dragonlordsd said:

Well, I did use the word "may" in the title, as all of this is just speculation right now, but idk, may have to change it.

The hard part that I see is how exactly to stack skills on him.

He doesn't have a distant counter weapon, so he'd have to drop his unique A skill to run that (although DC may be totally irrelevant with the rise of  Bow!Lyn, so he may not even want it), but the B slot is tricky.

That's really the question for me: If he runs quick riposte, he'll lose his ability to negate Horse Buffs, and may still get wrecked by Reinhardt, even with the Urvans effect (+12 attack is not something to take lightly, and he only has 20 res)

If he doesn't run quick riposte, he's safe from horse and flier buffs, but still risks getting wrecked in straight up duels. (New Roy naturally doubles him and hits like a truck with blazing durandal)

If Urvans definitely worked on ALL follow up attacks, all the time, he'd be a lot safer, but without it, I fear he won't hit nearly hard enough.

If he wants DC to check mages, he can insta-Bonfire kill Cecilia and S!Camilla I guess. He dies to Nino with Renais buffs though.

When attacked by +Atk DB3 QP Moonbow +6/+6 Reinhardt with Beorc's Blessing, the first hit will do 25, and the second, even with Moonbow, does 6 damage, so he's living.

 

[Ice Dragon]

1 hour ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

First of all, since your topic deals with datamine stuff, you might want to put that in a disclaimer in the topic title or something, lest you be murdered in your sleep.

@dragonlordsd Let me do that for you. This way, we can talk about it without spoiler tags.

[Roflolxp54]

Ike's stats aren't super bad given what Urvan does (if I'm reading the text correctly and it lines up with the meaning of the Japanese text). In fact, Ike could get away with -Spd to preserve his bulk and to more easily charge up his special.

[Tenzen12]

From what I get. Well if he get doubled regularly damage doesn't change though.

[Xenomata]

Given that Ike is the only one whose weapon does not have a Stat Up 3 built into the weapon, I'd say being Michalis but +2 Att and Speed is pretty good all things considered. Urvan and Beroc Blessing shut down two favorite teams of Arena play, so one would just need to make a good non-arena playset.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I always assumed his Urvan skill only meant brave weapons. Ike is one of very few green units who will survive an optimized Dire Thunder thanks to that. And should take little damage from any other brave weapon. Furthermore, most of us are low on green units as we keep encountering monocolor blue teams in Arena Assault. And he'll be the hardest of the four characters to pull because of how infrequently green orbs show up. Ike is a great proposition for the freebie if you ask me. 

[Othin]

6 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

And he'll be the hardest of the four characters to pull because of how infrequently green orbs show up.

It's actually the opposite. The game will generate Ike-containing orbs as often as Roy-containing orbs, but because there are more non-Roy red characters than non-Ike green characters, there will be more non-Roy red orbs than non-Ike green orbs. So if you stick to their color, it'll take fewer pulls to get Ike than Roy.

[Chelone]

And here I thought I made up my mind about choosing Ike as my free hero...

[Zeo]

I think people are selling Ike short. 39 Defense plus the blessing whenever he's attacked means virtually any Brave/Desperation user that isn't red or running Axebreaker isn't oneshotting him period and Aether is going to charge so fast that any damage he takes will be healed right back up. Even if he doesn't run Distant Counter he will be a scourge and unlike Hector he'll be on the frontlines of every battle which is a nightmare to think about.

That being said I want clarity if someone can give it to me. Urvan's 80% reduction proc. Scenarios.

A. Brave weapon user strikes twice or four times = 80% reduction from 2nd attack onward.

B. Desperation user strikes twice on initiation = 80% reduction from 2nd attack.

C. Ike attacks, enemy counter is a double = 80% reduction from 2nd attack.

D. Enemy attacks, Ike proc's Vantage, enemy doubles on the counter = 80% reduction from 2nd attack.

Are scenarios C and D real?

[Lushen]

8 hours ago, dragonlordsd said:

Finally, we get to his stat total, which is... very underwhelming.

?  His stat total is 5 higher than it should be, just like Lyn ?

His defense is very high
His HP is high
His speed is low (should be LOWER)
His atk is great
His res sucks

The only problem with him is his res.  Now, even if Urvan doesn't work with doubles, it still has the same effect as Minerva's axe which is very good in addition to preventing him from taking damage while baiting and against brave units which are in abundance.  But even if you take that out...Minerva's weapon is beloved and that's what he would have.

Boerc's blessing is PVP Defense only.  You should swap it out for PVE and maybe even PVP offense b/c AI doesn't know how to use emblem buffs.

His A slot coupled with his weapon is amazing.

He is basically Minerva with low speed, better weapon, better attack, better defense, same res (when you factor in his greater HP) and requires no investment unlike Minerva who demands an OG Ike sacrifice to be on his level.  And Minerva is one of the best units in the game.

 

So no, he's not bad.  He is NOT at all BAD.  Is he as good as Lyn? Probs not, but he is still S+ Tier in my book.

 

And if Urvan works with doubles and you swap his A skill for DC he will be insane.  I think its more like Ike was overhyped due to two translation errors/confusions but one of them is still unknown and even without the two, he is still very good.  Better than standard banner units.

Edited August 29, 2017 by Lushen

[Sayyyaka]

Just because he won't be broken doesn't mean he'll be bad.

Still rolling for that beautiful Senri Kita art regardless of how he turns out.

[Johann]

In what world is a tank with unique and powerful defenses anything other than awesome?

[Lushen]

16 minutes ago, Johann said:

In what world is a tank with unique and powerful defenses anything other than awesome?

^

16 MT Sword
+ 80% Consecutie
+ Killer Effect
+ Reverse Heavy Blade w/ Def+3
+ Anti-meta
-----------------------------------------------
= Bad?  Does not compute

Edited August 29, 2017 by Lushen

[r_n]

10 minutes ago, Lushen said:

^

16 MT Sword
+ 80% Consecutie
+ Killer Effect
+ Reverse Heavy Blade w/ Def+3
+ Anti-meta
-----------------------------------------------
= Bad?  Does not compute

Also I'm not sure how "Michalis with +2 attack & speed" is.....bad? Like Michalis isn't terrible either.

[Lushen]

1 minute ago, r_n said:

Also I'm not sure how "Michalis with +2 attack & speed" is.....bad? Like Michalis isn't terrible either.

Low speed = Everyone freaks out about usability.  Most of the time, its true though.

Edited August 29, 2017 by Lushen

[Ice Dragon]

3 hours ago, Zeo said:

That being said I want clarity if someone can give it to me. Urvan's 80% reduction proc. Scenarios.

A. Brave weapon user strikes twice or four times = 80% reduction from 2nd attack onward.

B. Desperation user strikes twice on initiation = 80% reduction from 2nd attack.

C. Ike attacks, enemy counter is a double = 80% reduction from 2nd attack.

D. Enemy attacks, Ike proc's Vantage, enemy doubles on the counter = 80% reduction from 2nd attack.

Are scenarios C and D real?

The way I understand the wording:

• Ike initiates, opponent double attacks (A-B1-B2): Urvan applies to B2.
• Ike initiates, opponent has Vantage and double attacks (B1-A-B2): Urvan does not apply.
• Ike initiates and double attacks, opponent has Quick Riposte (A1-B1-A2-B2): Urvan does not apply.
• Opponent initiates and double attacks (B1-A-B2): Urvan does not apply.
• Opponent initiates and double attacks with Desperation (B1-B2-A): Urvan applies to B2.
• Opponent initiates with a Brave weapon and double attacks (B1-B2-A-B3-B4): Urvan applies to B2 and B4.
• Opponent initiates with a Brave weapon and double attacks with Desperation (B1-B2-B3-B4-A): Urvan applies to B2, B3, and B4.
• Opponent initiates and double attacks, Ike has Vantage (A-B1-B2): Urvan applies to B2.
• Opponent initiates with a Brave weapon and double attacks, Ike has Vantage (A-B1-B2-B3-B4): Urvan applies to B2, B3, and B4.
• Opponent initiates, Ike cannot counterattack (B1(-B2-B3-B4)): Urvan applies to B2, B3, and B4.

And so on.

Edited August 29, 2017 by Ice Dragon