Most overused FE trope?

[Chad Radwell]

7 hours ago, Armagon said:

There's an actual mythological reason as to why Pegasus Knights are generally female in the series. That being said, male Pegasus Knights existed in Mystery of the Emblem, but they were enemy only.

 

I know there is, but it still wasn't executed well IMO. If they had strayed away from cute small ingenue type girls more often, I think it would have been better tbh. (The major exception that comes to mind is That Bitch Tanith, who is appreciated as a subversion even if she is That Bitch Tanith, lmao.)

 

GIVE SULLY A BIRDHORSE

[Rezzy]

8 hours ago, Armagon said:

There's an actual mythological reason as to why Pegasus Knights are generally female in the series. That being said, male Pegasus Knights existed in Mystery of the Emblem, but they were enemy only.

 

Considering Bellerophon was the one who rode Pegasus in Greek Mythology and was a dude, that would be more reason to only let guys ride pegasi.

It was unicorns that only let pure maidens approach them.  Fire Emblem needs to learn to mythology.

[Interdimensional Observer]

1 hour ago, Rezzy said:

It was unicorns that only let pure maidens approach them.  Fire Emblem needs to learn to mythology.

If it did, Greil would be married to the Ragnell, and while ticking off Pelleas by screwing Ettard, the girl he's obsessed with (to the point of letting himself get captured over and over again just to see her briefly each time). Odin would also be king of the gods and Ophelia would drown of insanity induced by heartbreak (I hate you Hamlet- how could you be so cold to her?). Ares in the meanwhile would be slapping people with a sprig of mistletoe and Titania would get one of the weirdest localization changes ever- from this to this.

 

4 hours ago, Anacybele said:

But the one I dislike most of all that I also think is overdone is the guy who looks like a girl. And lately it's gotten worse. There are more and more male characters I'm mistaking for females in FE lately. The trope is old and the joke is old. Let it go already.

Feminine looking or androgynous males are a typical anime thing (when I was younger, Zelos from Tales of Symphonia tricked me at first glance). Even so, while FE3 Xane and Roshea and Midir have rather soft appearances, I don't think its until FE7 with Lucius that IS actually chose to emphasize it for once. Lucius I thought pulled it off fine (those hips seal the deal), then they tried a little with Artur (a very poor but quiet attempt).

Reyson and Rafiel both handled it well enough, for although they are beautiful, they don't look womanly. The beauty and the fragility of the herons has a good explanation too, unlike the loliketes. Then we got the totally accidental beautiful male with Etzel- a redhead child of CanasxLucius (the monocle and the hips).

Then we get Libra, who totally bombed in my opinion- they played up the feminine looking male trope with him to 1000, but has none of the beauty of Lucius, nor the Heron Brothers. That he'd be mistaken for a female makes little sense to me. Izana was another bomb, this time with plot importance and the Corrinsexual problem.

Forrest at least has the pro-LGBTQ card to defend his appearance, even if his inclusion may have been less a statement of promoting the rainbow cause by IS/Nintendo, and more just looking for some new exotic gimmick to build a character around. And since Nina and Soleil exist, that might have been the case with Forrest.

[Acacia Sgt]

3 hours ago, Rezzy said:

Considering Bellerophon was the one who rode Pegasus in Greek Mythology and was a dude, that would be more reason to only let guys ride pegasi.

It was unicorns that only let pure maidens approach them.  Fire Emblem needs to learn to mythology.

It depends on the mythology. The Norse Valkyries also rode winged horses, and they're female.

The class being called Pegasus Knight does not mean it ties to the actual Pegasus. Pegasus did became the catch-all term for all winged horses by the early-mid 20th century, after all.

Edited September 9, 2017 by Acacia Sgt

[carhisalmano]

Meh, Libra looks gay and everything about him is lame because it's the same old girly crap. (His convos with Virion was dreadful). He is a disgrace and an insult.

I'll said it before, he's a bland, dull character with a boring personality.

Anyway, the most overused trope would be the "Obvious Canon-Love interest" with Sumia as a exemple. It hurts when thinking about it...

Edited September 9, 2017 by carhisalmano

[vanguard333]

14 hours ago, Rezzy said:

Considering Bellerophon was the one who rode Pegasus in Greek Mythology and was a dude, that would be more reason to only let guys ride pegasi.

Not just Bellerophron; Perseus was the first character in Greek Mythology to ride Pegasus. That's two guys at least.

[Florina's #1 Fan]

On 9/7/2017 at 11:04 PM, Logos said:

Whenever there's a Myrmidon or Swordsmaster type of character they also have to be somehow be cool, and have some flawless no touchiness qualities (Ex. Lon'qu, Karla, Karel...etc. all but Hinata). Why can't we have a swordsmaster type character that's actually not disciplined and be rude, cruel, and perhaps more cynical and skeptical like Seijuro Hiko from Samurai X. Also can we stop this trope of all Swordsmaster have to look like Japanese Samurai/ Chinese swordsmen when they're off duty, 15th century knights can strike just as fast, if not faster than Samurai with their long-swords.

I specifically designed my myrmidon's personalities in FE: The Crystal of Bonds to avoid the "cool, collected myrmidon" trope. Granted, it'll probably never be a real FE game, but still, I tried. One of them wants to be cool and collected, but is too easily flustered, and the other one is a hot mess with a tendency for causing drama. The link to the Crystal of Bonds blog is in my signature if you want to check it out.

As for another FE trope, are there no cavaliers without loyalty to the kingdom that join you? All the cavaliers I've seen serve some kingdom, and doesn't that mean that either no one else has any horses or that no one knows how to fight on horseback? The only person I can think of that isn't tied to a kingdom's service is Rath, and he's tied to Caelin somehow, isn't he?

[Florina's #1 Fan]

8 hours ago, carhisalmano said:

Meh, Libra looks gay and everything about him is lame because it's the same old girly crap. (His convos with Virion was dreadful). He is a disgrace and an insult.

I'll said it before, he's a bland, dull character with a boring personality.

Libra's supports are actually very interesting for the most part. His supports with Tharja in particular are fascinating. Players don't give him much of a chance because of the one-trick-pony characters in Awakening, but Libra is surprisingly dynamic.

8 hours ago, carhisalmano said:

Anyway, the most overused trope would be the "Obvious Canon-Love interest" with Sumia as a exemple. It hurts when thinking about it...

I also despise this trope, especially because the game goes "LOL, Chrom goes with Sumia, so no supports with Cordelia, even though they're actually much more compatible." I especially can't stand it because she's just such an idiot. How do you not know how to slap someone? HOW DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?

I also hate Alm with Celica. I actually liked Celica with Atlas, and Caeda I just can't stand in general. She's so generic :\

[NoirCore]

2 hours ago, Florina's #1 Fan said:

As for another FE trope, are there no cavaliers without loyalty to the kingdom that join you? All the cavaliers I've seen serve some kingdom, and doesn't that mean that either no one else has any horses or that no one knows how to fight on horseback? The only person I can think of that isn't tied to a kingdom's service is Rath, and he's tied to Caelin somehow, isn't he?

Titania and Oscar, while on Crimea's side, are employees of a mercenary company. Randal may count too, I think...?

[Ledah*]

On 08/09/2017 at 0:20 AM, Captain Karnage said:

a cast full of teens with no military experience

Fire Emblem actually is one of the few game franchises that avoids it. From the top of my head the young protagonist is usually with a more experienced general that acts as the advisor and more likely handles the logistics of the army, Marth has Jagen, Sigurd is an experienced man but Celiph has Oifey, Eliwood and Roy have Marcus, Ike has Titania, Eirika has Seth, Alm has Lukas and Clive, Chrom has Frederick and the list goes on.

Plus they usually have been trained since young in the art of the war, this is another thing that people complain about but since it's medieval times you would expect the nobles to do the war thing, having a protagonist being a village boy that should be farming becoming the leader of the army is more overused and ridiculous than the noble boy that was trained the entire life for that coupled with an general

And cavaliers being professional soldiers are to expected since again its very expensive to have a horse in these times and you can't expect a farm boy to actually have ever ride one let alone trained in horseback combat.

Echoes illustrate this well with the nobles of the army being cavaliers ( Ferdinand, Clive, Berkut) and the common soldiers, low nobles being soldiers or archers like Lukas and Forsith

Edited September 9, 2017 by Ledah*

[Interdimensional Observer]

3 hours ago, Florina's #1 Fan said:

As for another FE trope, are there no cavaliers without loyalty to the kingdom that join you? All the cavaliers I've seen serve some kingdom, and doesn't that mean that either no one else has any horses or that no one knows how to fight on horseback? The only person I can think of that isn't tied to a kingdom's service is Rath, and he's tied to Caelin somehow, isn't he?

Makalov serves no kingdom in PoR, and in RD he's the wastrel of the Crimean knighthood with no real love for his adopted kingdom. Astrid kinda served no kingdom in PoR either- her escape from the aristocracy was less to serve Begnion as to escape an unhappy arranged marriage.

Then we have Jugdral, where Beowulf is a mercenary (albeit with personal ties to Eldigan), Fergus is another mercenary, and Ares, though he ends up being a king, had a mercenary life growing up.

 

Historically, having a good warhorse wasn't something commoners could afford, nor could they afford the training to learn how to ride and fight on one. Even among Mongols and other Central Asian nomads fabled for their cavalry, the lower strata of society fought as foot soldiers without horses (I think).

Edited September 9, 2017 by Interdimensional Observer
Corrected by AzuraSen

[Chad Radwell]

2 hours ago, Florina's #1 Fan said:

As for another FE trope, are there no cavaliers without loyalty to the kingdom that join you? All the cavaliers I've seen serve some kingdom, and doesn't that mean that either no one else has any horses or that no one knows how to fight on horseback? The only person I can think of that isn't tied to a kingdom's service is Rath, and he's tied to Caelin somehow, isn't he?

I would think this indicates that horses are something of a commodity that only the military has access to, but with the prevalence of farms and rural areas in these games - you're right, this makes no sense. There are a couple rare examples, like Oscar and Mom as mentioned above, but...hey, wouldn't a side plot with a group of rebels stealing your horses be cool? (Say you have an ally army with a lot of cavaliers for a few chapters, and their horses are all either slain or kidnapped overnight. Now your allies are all on foot and you're going up against an enemy team that's all super mobile. I don't think this would work too well with your own units going horseless for a chapter, but it could definitely be an interesting mechanic with units you don't directly control.)

Edited September 9, 2017 by Chad Radwell

[Azure Sen]

On 9/8/2017 at 10:01 AM, vanguard333 said:

Am I the only one who has no problem with Alm and dead Rinea forgiving a dying man who felt true remorse for his actions?

If Berkut actually seemed remorseful and apologized to Rinea for, you know, sacrificing her instead of "killing the man she loved by calling to a higher power"...honestly, I would still hate him. He crossed a line that is impossible to come back from in my book, and the Japanese trend of "irredeemable asshat gets forgiven by the person(s) he victimized for all the terrible stuff he did as he's dying because reasons" is one I really dislike. As far as I'm concerned, that vision of Rinea was a dying hallucination on Berkut's part.

29 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Historically, having a good warhorse wasn't something commoners could afford, nor could they afford the training to learn how to ride and fight on one. Even among Mongols and other Central Asian nomads fabled for their cavalry, the lower strata of society fought as foot soldiers without horses (I think).

The Mongols and other Central Asian nomadic groups didn't really have class divisions as we know them. Nor did they have any sort of infantry troops due to how their military tactics favored lightning-fast strikes with cavalry and their conquests involved moving across large stretches of land, at least until some of them settled and formed/took over actual nations. The nomadic groups of Central Asia had easy access to horses thanks to wild horses that lived on the steppes, and the average Mongol army of 10,000 men would have three to four times that number of horses, since each soldier generally had three or four horses.

2 hours ago, Florina's #1 Fan said:

I also despise this trope, especially because the game goes "LOL, Chrom goes with Sumia, so no supports with Cordelia, even though they're actually much more compatible." I especially can't stand it because she's just such an idiot. How do you not know how to slap someone? HOW DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?

I also hate Alm with Celica. I actually liked Celica with Atlas, and Caeda I just can't stand in general. She's so generic :\

Cordelia's supposed to be a call-back to Catria, who similarly had unrequited feelings for Marth, and the game makes it clear that Chrom and Cordelia don't have supports because Cordelia can't work up the courage to talk to him. I just go Chrom/Olivia anyway. And I'd disagree that Chrom and Cordelia are more compatible than Chrom and Sumia, but that's another discussion for another time.

Sumia and Azura I could see complaints about, sure, but I'm not sure how Alm/Celica and Marth/Caeda qualify for "obvious canon love interest" status when they have no other romantic options you can pair them with and the games make it clear they're the respective official couples. If you don't like them, fine, but it's not really an overdone trope if it's only been in what, three games?

Edited September 9, 2017 by AzureSen

[Interdimensional Observer]

19 minutes ago, Chad Radwell said:

I would think this indicates that horses are something of a commodity that only the military has access to, but with the prevalence of farms and rural areas in these games - you're right, this makes no sense.

Not all horses make good warhorses, you have to breed them right. What's good for pulling the wagon full of crops to market or a slow steady ride from town to town, is probably not suited for sprinting across the battlefield while its rider chops off heads or lances hearts.

 

Also, Berwick Saga has a side battle or two featuring horse thieves, but neither has the interesting gameplay scenario you describe. You did lose your horses after the very first fight and have to buy new ones for some reason though (horses in BS if you aren't aware are buyable equipment with their own HP).

 

3 minutes ago, AzureSen said:

The Mongols and other Central Asian nomadic groups didn't really have class divisions as we know them. Nor did they have any sort of infantry troops due to how their military tactics favored lightning-fast strikes with cavalry, at least until some of them settled and formed/took over actual nations. The nomadic groups of Central Asia had easy access to horses thanks to wild horses that lived on the steppes, and the average Mongol army of 10,000 men would have three to four times that number of horses, since each soldier generally had three or four horses.

Thanks for the correction! Somehow in the 500 pages describing the total Qing conquest of the steppe I had to read, I don't remember if there was much discussion of Central Asian society. I do remember that the Chinese did attempt to sell the nomads tea by the bazillions (the nomads were eh about it) in exchange for steppe horses (and the nomads made sure the steeds the Chinese got were relatively low quality).

[Florina's #1 Fan]

40 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Historically, having a good warhorse wasn't something commoners could afford, nor could they afford the training to learn how to ride and fight on one.

Yeah, but this is FIre Emblem, where Sumia gives a Pegasus love and then magically it's tame. Because Sumia. So I'm sure somewhere there's a Sumia that can tame horses. World-wise, it makes statistically no sense that there would be zero commoners with mount experience.

[Chad Radwell]

41 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Not all horses make good warhorses, you have to breed them right. What's good for pulling the wagon full of crops to market or a slow steady ride from town to town, is probably not suited for sprinting across the battlefield while its rider chops off heads or lances hearts.

Fair enough. I guess it depends on to what extent the FE universe (or rather, any given game within it) treats horses as a realistic element. 'Cause, like, Silas managed to presumably sneak one into the Baby Void at one point, and no one had a problem with this? So i don't know how lenient it gets with it's fantasy rules and suspension of disbelief. (I don't know if that made sense, I'm still on teeth drugs, LOL.)

I haven't played Berwick Saga, but something about the idea of going to the store and just buying up a new round of horses like it ain't no thang is way funnier than it has any right to be right now. I'm gonna take your comment as a recommendation and look into it, thanks!

[Emperor Hardin]

Gharnef type baddie summoning a Medeus type baddie. Gharnef and Medeus was interesting, but most remakes of them less so. Gharnef had his own plans without Medeus, while Medeus had motivations besides being evil. 

Female bosses merely being manipulated by a male villain.

Superevil looking bosses, more bosses should look like ordinary people.

2 hours ago, Chad Radwell said:

I would think this indicates that horses are something of a commodity that only the military has access to, but with the prevalence of farms and rural areas in these games - you're right, this makes no sense. There are a couple rare examples, like Oscar and Mom as mentioned above, but...hey, wouldn't a side plot with a group of rebels stealing your horses be cool? (Say you have an ally army with a lot of cavaliers for a few chapters, and their horses are all either slain or kidnapped overnight. Now your allies are all on foot and you're going up against an enemy team that's all super mobile. I don't think this would work too well with your own units going horseless for a chapter, but it could definitely be an interesting mechanic with units you don't directly control.)

Bandits almost never no use horses come to think of it. Off the top of my head, I can only think of that lone generic in Makalov's chapter and thats because he has to have the Laguz spear.

[Cymbalina's Revenge]

6 hours ago, Chad Radwell said:

I would think this indicates that horses are something of a commodity that only the military has access to, but with the prevalence of farms and rural areas in these games - you're right, this makes no sense. There are a couple rare examples, like Oscar and Mom as mentioned above, but...hey, wouldn't a side plot with a group of rebels stealing your horses be cool? (Say you have an ally army with a lot of cavaliers for a few chapters, and their horses are all either slain or kidnapped overnight. Now your allies are all on foot and you're going up against an enemy team that's all super mobile. I don't think this would work too well with your own units going horseless for a chapter, but it could definitely be an interesting mechanic with units you don't directly control.)

I'm pretty sure it's a deliberate way of indicating a commodity. An actual warhorse like the "destrier" Fernand mentions in FE15 isn't a cart horse or a plough animal any more than you'd hitch a Thoroughbred up to a plough. It's kind of an understated point in FE5 in particular, where almost no one in Leif's starting party has a horse because they're the local warlord and a bunch of peasants-- except Finn. Everybody knows Finn's a knight just by looking at him and they refer to him as such. How do they know? Dude's got a warhorse and a weapon meant for skewering people on horseback. Random peasants don't.

Stealing horses in-game is a great idea though.

[vanguard333]

6 hours ago, AzureSen said:

If Berkut actually seemed remorseful and apologized to Rinea for, you know, sacrificing her instead of "killing the man she loved by calling to a higher power"...honestly, I would still hate him. He crossed a line that is impossible to come back from in my book, and the Japanese trend of "irredeemable asshat gets forgiven by the person(s) he victimized for all the terrible stuff he did as he's dying because reasons" is one I really dislike. As far as I'm concerned, that vision of Rinea was a dying hallucination on Berkut's part.

I suppose I just feel it is important to always be willing to forgive others, no matter how hard it is, and I will still think that until the day I die. The thing about forgiveness is that no one deserves it; otherwise, by definition, it wouldn't be forgiveness.

6 hours ago, AzureSen said:

The Mongols and other Central Asian nomadic groups didn't really have class divisions as we know them. Nor did they have any sort of infantry troops due to how their military tactics favored lightning-fast strikes with cavalry and their conquests involved moving across large stretches of land, at least until some of them settled and formed/took over actual nations. The nomadic groups of Central Asia had easy access to horses thanks to wild horses that lived on the steppes, and the average Mongol army of 10,000 men would have three to four times that number of horses, since each soldier generally had three or four horses.

That is true, but it was very different from European Cavalry. The Mongols and other Central Asian nomadic groups rode much smaller horses than medieval European Knights did. As a result, the horses were much easier to feed and less expensive to take care of, but would have been extremely ill-suited for any shock cavalry tactics (think knight on horseback, with a lance, charging straight at an enemy and breaking their formation). As you said, they favoured fast strikes instead. Also, you are correct that under Genghis Khan, the Mongols abandoned inherited warrior ranks in favour of more social Darwinist attitudes towards military rank; meaning the best warriors got the best horses.

 

6 hours ago, Florina's #1 Fan said:

Yeah, but this is Fire Emblem, where Sumia gives a Pegasus love and then magically it's tame. Because Sumia. So I'm sure somewhere there's a Sumia that can tame horses. World-wise, it makes statistically no sense that there would be zero commoners with mount experience.

Actually, it makes a lot of sense. Sumia could tame the Pegasus, but imagine what trying to take care of it would have been like; especially in terms of the cost.

Likewise, it is very costly to maintain a war horse bred for the kinds of shock cavalry tactics employed in warfare. Not only that, but how would a commoner get such a steed? Sumia found a wild Pegasus by accident; a far cry from a purposely bred animal. If a commoner were to have cavalry, it would have to be a little hardy beast meant for scouting or skirmishes.

[Florina's #1 Fan]

2 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Actually, it makes a lot of sense. Sumia could tame the Pegasus, but imagine what trying to take care of it would have been like; especially in terms of the cost.

Likewise, it is very costly to maintain a war horse bred for the kinds of shock cavalry tactics employed in warfare. Not only that, but how would a commoner get such a steed? Sumia found a wild Pegasus by accident; a far cry from a purposely bred animal. If a commoner were to have cavalry, it would have to be a little hardy beast meant for scouting or skirmishes.

But an absolute zero in anything is nonsense. To say there isn't a commoner that knows how to train horses for war, or to say maybe on the continent somewhere there's a soldier that no longer serves the kingdom and trained a horse, or that the son of a royal knight was taught to raise horses for battle, possibly a noble with no ties to the government, something, anything. I just don't think there is no one in those countries that knows how to breed and raise horses for combat.

[Ae†her]

On 9/7/2017 at 11:20 PM, Captain Karnage said:

a cast full of teens with no military experience

This would make sense if Kings had to rush men off to war, and usually teens were dragged off to war to fight even during the age of 14-16 yrs old. The problem is these weird special groups of soldiers that aren't even treated like they're anything special. They're just there, and capable of fighting. Just look at Chrom's Shepherds. Wtf is Sumia even doing there when she looks like a complete newbie with a huge case of shyness. If you're going to have the main lord of the game form a band of fighters to go fight, instead of being near his huge military out on the open field, at least make it obvious that this is a special group of fighters and elitists that the lord is working with to do special missions and tasks.

[Emperor Hardin]

28 minutes ago, Florina's #1 Fan said:

But an absolute zero in anything is nonsense. To say there isn't a commoner that knows how to train horses for war, or to say maybe on the continent somewhere there's a soldier that no longer serves the kingdom and trained a horse, or that the son of a royal knight was taught to raise horses for battle, possibly a noble with no ties to the government, something, anything. I just don't think there is no one in those countries that knows how to breed and raise horses for combat.

Tearring Saga did have a criminal horse rider class. The thief even promotes to it in Berwick Saga.

[Troykv]

I think Alm does the things that he does because if he actually decided to curse Berkut for his actions as him deserved instead of forgive him... Alm would like an asshole.

Edited September 10, 2017 by Troykv

[Thane]

2 hours ago, Troykv said:

I think Alm does the things that he does because if he actually decided to curse Berkut for his actions as him deserved instead of forgive him... Alm would like an asshole.

I feel like there's some middle ground between crying about being left alone and cursing his name. 

Speaking of Alm, there's a worrying rise of prophecies in Fire Emblem. Both Corrin and Alm were destined to win according to prophecy, and that always makes it feel like everything is on-rails. Sure, we've had special people with special weapons that can do the special thing, but it was never preordained; Chrom even fails in one timeline, for example.

[Azure Sen]

10 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

I suppose I just feel it is important to always be willing to forgive others, no matter how hard it is, and I will still think that until the day I die. The thing about forgiveness is that no one deserves it; otherwise, by definition, it wouldn't be forgiveness.

I guess this is a difference of opinion, then. While I agree that forgiveness isn't something someone deserves, it is something that needs to be earned, via genuine regret and repentance. And as far as I'm concerned, Berkut has done nothing to earn that forgiveness from anyone, especially Rinea, and is only being given it because it's a trope in Japanese media. (Also, and because I didn't notice until I did another read-through of Chapter 5's script, but Alm doesn't forgive Berkut for his actions; Alm is just desperately begging Berkut not to die because Alm doesn't want to see another family member die before his eyes in the same short timespan.)

4 hours ago, Thane said:

Both Corrin and Alm were destined to win according to prophecy, 

There was no prophesy surrounding Corrin. The closest Fates actually got to that was the Yato choosing its user and that Yato was forged to be the key to peace in Fateslandia (which is true, that is why the Rainbow Sage forged it). People seem to completely forget Celica was also destined to win thanks to said prophesy, and also that said prophesy existed back in Gaiden, also known as the second game in the series.