Opinions on the beastkin classes?

[De Geso]

5 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Aside from that, I frankly see forging related arguments as grasping at straws since you can't count on having the right resources, and it ain't like money is that plentiful either.

Money isn't as scarce in Conquest as the marketing implied.

You do know about ore swapping right? Even if you don't want to visit other castles you can still take some of your castle's ore and turn it into whatever you need. 

That's like saying capturing is bad because you can't be sure you'll have 15 daikons or whatever.

(sorry for double posting)

Edited October 28, 2017 by YouSquiddinMe

[Shadow Mir]

8 minutes ago, YouSquiddinMe said:

Come on, dude. Just look at the numbers that you have seen over and over and over, and really look at them with an open mind. It is a hard fact that berserkers facing crit is a non-issue in a properly played run of Conquest.

Hah! Don't make me laugh! I have no reason why I should take you seriously anymore. Goodbye! But seriously, trying to convince me that Berserkers aren't bad is a lost cause, so just do us both a favor and give up!

Edited October 28, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Alastor15243]

3 minutes ago, YouSquiddinMe said:

You're arguing based on personal experience and preference, don't do that. As @joshcja said, buff stacking makes hand axes really good. Berserkers have such fat damage that they don't always need to double. Buff stacking includes rallies, tonics, meals, pairup, etc. It's good, so good that playing Conquest without it makes it infinitely more difficult.

Oh I know about those things, I just wanted to make sure we were on the same page. Okay, I've heard that Ophelia can be made sufficiently powerful enough to one-shot enemies, but berserkers doing it with a +3 hand axe is news to me, especially since that's a hell of a higher threshold to hit especially against defense and without life and death. What sort of enemies are we talking about one-shotting here? I'm guessing sorcerers and ninjas, right? Not anything sturdier?

[De Geso]

1 minute ago, Alastor15243 said:

Oh I know about those things, I just wanted to make sure we were on the same page. Okay, I've heard that Ophelia can be made sufficiently powerful enough to one-shot enemies, but berserkers doing it with a +3 hand axe is news to me, especially since that's a hell of a higher threshold to hit especially against defense and without life and death. What sort of enemies are we talking about one-shotting here? I'm guessing sorcerers and ninjas, right? Not anything sturdier?

It's been a while since I've played and I don't want to talk out of my ass, but I'm pretty sure I remember there being a higher threshold than that. I'll have to look at the enemy stats

4 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Hah! Don't make me laugh! I have no reason why I should take you seriously anymore. Goodbye!

...alright, lol. There's no need to get so heated about it.

[Shadow Mir]

55 minutes ago, YouSquiddinMe said:

Money isn't as scarce in Conquest as the marketing implied.

You do know about ore swapping right? Even if you don't want to visit other castles you can still take some of your castle's ore and turn it into whatever you need. 

That's like saying capturing is bad because you can't be sure you'll have 15 daikons or whatever.

(sorry for double posting)

My issue with capturing is that one, I have to use Niles, who I think is hardly fantastic. Second, even if Niles turned out to be a keeper, which I don't count on happening, there's almost no mooks out there that make me think that they're worth giving up a unit slot to use. As for money, I find it far and away more prudent to keep my staves, tonics, and healing items stocked than to piss it away on a clumsy forging system.

46 minutes ago, YouSquiddinMe said:

...alright, lol. There's no need to get so heated about it.

The fact of the matter is, it takes one bad apple to ruin the whole barrel. And the crit evade penalty Berserkers suffer is an automatic dealbreaker, in no small part because critical hits are just more powerful for the enemy. I'm not saying it can't be played around, but rather, I'm saying that you HAVE to constantly play around it if you want to not auto-lose, and that can be very limiting. As a result, Berserkers are a good class - for the enemy, that is. 

Edited October 28, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Alastor15243]

12 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

My issue with capturing is that one, I have to use Niles, who I think is hardly fantastic. Second, even if Niles turned out to be a keeper, which I don't count on happening, there's almost no mooks out there that make me think that they're worth giving up a unit slot to use. As for money, I find it far and away more prudent to keep my staves, tonics, and healing items stocked than to piss it away on a clumsy forging system.

I had enough money left at the endgame of my latest conquest run to buy Camilla, Leo, Xander and the avatar an eternal seal each. How many staves are you using?

[Shadow Mir]

1 minute ago, Alastor15243 said:

I had enough money left at the endgame of my latest conquest run to buy Camilla, Leo, Xander and the avatar an eternal seal each. How many staves are you using?

Maybe enough to make Vegeta break his scouter? Between Felicia, Flora, and Elise, I have at least three staff users, and there might be more depending on what I did with my children.

[Alastor15243]

2 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Maybe enough to make Vegeta break his scouter? Between Felicia, Flora, and Elise, I have at least three staff users, and there might be more depending on what I did with my children.

Okay... what staves do you buy and use?

[Shadow Mir]

Just now, Alastor15243 said:

Okay... what staves do you buy and use?

Primarily Heal and Mend. Other staves see use as I see fit (though that's mostly during endgame).

[Alastor15243]

1 minute ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Primarily Heal and Mend. Other staves see use as I see fit (though that's mostly during endgame).

You must be making some other extreme purchases if you feel you can't afford forges. That's not nearly enough to set you that far back, even if you were so inadequate you gained literally nothing from chapters 8 and 16.

Edited October 28, 2017 by Alastor15243

[Shadow Mir]

1 minute ago, Alastor15243 said:

You must be making some other extreme purchases if you feel you can't afford forges. That's not nearly enough to set you that far back, even if you were so inadequate you gained literally nothing from chapters 8 and 16.

Well, like I said, even ignoring staves, there's healing items and tonics. I'd rather not end up in a tight spot because I was short on either of those...

[Alastor15243]

Just now, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Well, like I said, even ignoring staves, there's healing items and tonics. I'd rather not end up in a tight spot because I was short on either of those...

How many tonics are you buying? We are talking a difference of nearly 50 thousand gold between our personal experiences, and tonics cost 150 a pop. I just don't get what could possibly be going on here.

[Shadow Mir]

52 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

How many tonics are you buying? We are talking a difference of nearly 50 thousand gold between our personal experiences, and tonics cost 150 a pop. I just don't get what could possibly be going on here.

I forgot miscellaneous expenses (which are mostly Master and Heart Seals).

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

@Alastor15243 Mind this is probably not fully accurate but a for reference Kumagera in Lunatic have 59 combined Physical Bulk according to wiki(38 + 21)

Lets take Arthur at 20/5 with Forged +2 Hand Axe as example

Arthur averages 26 STR at 20/5

+2 Hand Axe is 11 MT = 37

Rally ATK is 4 = 41

Berserker Pair Up is 5 = 46. For sake of this calculation lets use Wife Effie promoted with Partner Seal so thats 3 more STR for = 49

Mess Hall caps at 3 more STR = 52

Tonic = 54

 

After this you can get 5 more damage from Strategist Aura(Felicia), Camilla(3) and Elise(1) putting it at 60 damage. If its a Cavalier Arthur carryover you can add 4 more from Elbow Room and Defender but thats resource dump.

So anything that is noticably squishier than Kumagera would just drop dead

 

Edited October 28, 2017 by JSND Alter Dragon Boner

[Alastor15243]

@JSND Alter Dragon Boner You actually can’t get +3 in a stat at the mess hall. All double-dipping with something like meat and beans does is guarantee you’ll get the max of 2 if you haven’t put Jakob or Mozu on cooking duty.

And it sounds like that’s a highly diminishing investment once you get to the late game where enemies start getting tougher and dodgier, especially when you’re talking enemy phase when a few of those auras won’t be around.

Plus may I remind you that that is a ludicrously optimistic level for Arthur in chapter 14, and involves separately training up another berserker to 20/5 at the same time, when the average army doesn’t even promote until mid chapter 17, much less reach level 5 promoted by then.

And again, ARTHUR. How am I supposed to justify investing in him as an enemy phase unit in an Ironman game when he has a base -5 dodge in guard stance as a berserker and enemies start getting crit rates in the 10s to 20s? And if I can’t use the strategy in Ironman, doesn’t that mean it relies on pure dumb luck to work?

 

And @Levant Mir Celestia, how much class changing are you doing? I sent the avatar and Laslow through around 3-4 classes each and then sent Xander and Camilla through Bow Knight and Dark Knight respectively and back and that didn’t cause me any major problems.

Edited October 28, 2017 by Alastor15243

[Shoblongoo]

...yeah its not that Wolfskin itself is a particularly good class, so much as Keaton himself is just a solid unit with a really nice stat-spread.

He's good as a beast. He's good as a berserker (Not as good as Arthur, but serviceable). He's good as a vanguard, if you're not adverse to using DLC.

 

12 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

trying to convince me that Berserkers aren't bad is a lost cause

[Shadow Mir]

3 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

I expected you to post something with actual substance. I see now that I was a fool to expect you to do so.

5 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

And @Levant Mir Celestia, how much class changing are you doing? I sent the avatar and Laslow through around 3-4 classes each and then sent Xander and Camilla through Bow Knight and Dark Knight respectively and back and that didn’t cause me any major problems.

Good question. My last run had Camilla as a Wyvern Lord (sealed immediately, of course), Soleil as a Sky Knight, and some other gimmicky setups.

Edited October 28, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Alastor15243]

3 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I expected you to post something with actual substance. I see now that I was a fool to expect you to do so.

Good question. My last run had Camilla as a Wyvern Lord (sealed immediately, of course), Soleil as a Sky Knight, and some other gimmicky setups.

So are you just not getting a lot of the gold you get throughout the game?

[Shadow Mir]

21 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

So are you just not getting a lot of the gold you get throughout the game?

No. Though if it was indeed the case, the money I'd be missing out on would most likely be from Percy's paralogue (assuming that I married a female character that's not Anna, Flora, or a child).

[Alastor15243]

Just now, Levant Mir Celestia said:

No. Though if it was indeed the case, the money I'd be missing out on would most likely be from Percy's paralogue (assuming that I married a female character that's not Anna, Flora, or a child).

So... how much money do you have by the end of the game?

[Shadow Mir]

52 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

So... how much money do you have by the end of the game?

My last run had over 120k at the end... With one caveat. I tend to grind supports on the gold DLC, because it's faster than Boo Camp and Museum Melee is bullshit. So discounting half of that at least, I'd say about 64 grand.

[Alastor15243]

1 minute ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

My last run had over 120k at the end... With one caveat. I tend to grind supports on the gold DLC, because it's faster than Boo Camp and Museum Melee is bullshit. So discounting half of that at least, I'd say about 64 grand.

So... how... exactly... is forging this impossible, ridiculous expense?

Edited October 28, 2017 by Alastor15243

[joshcja]

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

So... how much money do you have by the end of the game?

120kish raw in money drops.

200kish if you sell all of the useless junk in the game.

Infinite moneys if you farm MC.

[Alastor15243]

1 minute ago, joshcja said:

120kish raw in money drops.

200kish if you sell all of the useless junk in the game.

Infinite moneys if you farm MC.

Yeah, it's just Levant's been insisting that Forges are so ludicrously expensive they're a waste of money, and meanwhile I finish every game with enough spare cash to buy four eternal seals and enough tonics to buff every unit in my army for both chapter 27 and the endgame, without making any major expense cuts. So... I'm trying to work out what the hell is going on on his end.

[Shadow Mir]

17 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

So... how... exactly... is forging this impossible, ridiculous expense?

Because of the needing resources - am I supposed to assume that a specific mineral is the one available in my castle... when there's far more of a chance that it's NOT the one (needless to say, if you don't have the right ore, the forging process slows down practically to a screeching halt)? And even taking ore swaps into account, there's still the part where you only get ores once per four fights. So what, am I supposed to fight more and more fights until I have enough? Or stop playing for about a whole day?