October 30 - Halloween Banner

[Rafiel's Aria]

Henry's looking like he'll be pretty good. That's such a relief. The poor guy really deserved some special treatment. I'm not going to go all out, but I think I'll spend a few orbs here and there to see if I can get him. If not, it won't be the end of the world. (Watch me get no green orbs on my free pull....RIP.) I'll definitely wait to see what the next banner is though. I don't want to risk potentially missing out on RD or SS even if this guy is pretty fabulous.

[Othin]

Glad to see that the increased variety Henry brings to an armor team isn't just weapon type, but also stats.

Ironically, armor Henry has 12 more Spd than original Henry, and loses a bunch of HP and Def in exchange.

[Clogon]

Credit to the guys on the Datamine Discord.

 

They are all so good. >.<

 

[Sproutling]

33 minutes ago, Korath88 said:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Stats have been datamined. Henry being the first actual res tank armour is interesting, though his HP is rather low for an armour 

The best news is that no one has a BST boost. Thank naga 

If we go by the logic that ranged units almost always have about 10 BST lower than their melee counterparts, then Jakob and Henry did kind of get a BST boost. It's not really anything significant, though.

Anyway, Henry is now tied with Wrys for having the best res stat in the game and he doesn't hit like a wet noodle anymore. Awesome.

[Korath88]

Ranged armours are a new unit type, so it could just be that ranged penalty for armours is only -3, but until we get more of these types of unit, it's not possible to determine whether it's a BST buff or not. (It's not powercreep either since there weren't any ranged armours before this)

Edited October 30, 2017 by Korath88

[LuxSpes]

4 minutes ago, Korath88 said:

Ranged armours are a new unit type, so it could just be that ranged penalty for armours is only -3, but until we get more of these types of unit, it's not possible to determine whether it's a BST buff or not. (It's not powercreep either since there weren't any ranged armours before this)

If we go by the current rules of BST and growths, Henry and Jakob are "Special Ranged Armor".  The "Special" category was introduced specially for Ayra since she's different from Trainee units and Legend units(B!Ike, B!Lyn and Sigurd). 

With the current rules, the starting lvl 1 BST of a unit is 47 for a melee infantry/flier unit. Being armored grants a +7 modifier and being ranged grants a -3 modifier. Which combines for a total modifier of +4 meaning that we should have expected a lvl 1 BST of 51 for those two. However, their actual BST is 52, which is 1 point more than predicted and the only other unit to have 1 more BST at level 1 was Ayra.

As for growth rates, the standard growth rate total is 31 for a melee infantry/flier unit. Being armored grants a +2 modifier while being ranged grants a -3 modifier. Which means they should have a 30 growth rate total, but their's is actually 32. This +2 bonus also falls in line with them being in the same "Special" category as Ayra. 

For comparison, a non-special ranged armor should have had a level 40 BST between 159 and 161, but Henry and Jakob actually fall in the 164-166 range. 

Granted, all those BST rules were never officially revealed by IS, so they are not absolute. But considering they obeyed by these rules until B!Ike, B!Lyn and Ayra arrived, I wouldn't consider it unreasonable to say Henry and Jakob have higher BST than what would have been expected of a ranged armored unit. I'd find it weird that IS decided that the BST and growth rate modifiers for ranged armors would be -2 instead of -3 while it has been -3 for ranged cavalry, flier and dancer and as such, I think it's more likely that they just gave them the Ayra treatment for the sake of making them even more enticing. (Though it's not like they would have been bad if they had obeyed by the standard 'rules'.  2 less points in two stats wouldn't have broken them.)

[Tsak]

I kinda find it an odd choice for IS to make all of these goofy special characters also have some of the strongest weapons/skills yet they retain their "event flair"
like Sakura's new dagger could be the best dagger in the game, yet it's a goofy toy. It's fairly immersion breaking unless you're using the character herself. Just looks out of place when you put these weapons on other characters. I mean im all for trying get that cash and all, but you'd think they would start releasing some of these weapons that look like weapons. Most of the newer weapons (that don't follow the special event trend) have either been blatant upgrades to previous weapons or legendary weapons that can't be inherited.

Edited October 30, 2017 by Tsak

[Ice Dragon]

3 hours ago, LuxSpes said:

As for growth rates, the standard growth rate total is 31 for a melee infantry/flier unit. Being armored grants a +2 modifier while being ranged grants a -3 modifier. Which means they should have a 30 growth rate total, but their's is actually 32. This +2 bonus also falls in line with them being in the same "Special" category as Ayra. 

"Growth points".

"Growth rates" are different and are equal to

[growth rate] = 20 + 5 × [growth points]

and gives the actual growth rate in a "classic" sense for a character at 3-star rarity. Characters at 4-star rarity have their growth rates multiplied by 1.07, and characters at 5-star rarity have their growth rates multiplied by 1.14. (The gradation of 0.07 also holds true going down, as well.)

[Roflolxp54]

In other news...

Sigurd, Ayra, and Deirdre are 5*-exclusive. Tailtiu is in the 4-5* pool. Yep, Ayra has joined the pitybreakers even though her debut banner hasn't ended yet (though that's mainly because of the timing of banners)...

[Wanda]

Well, at least the powercreep stopped for this banner. Nothing is particularly enticing about any of these units.

Witch Nowi... well, if you run flier emblem sure, go for it. Spring Camilla and Summer Corrin are both better at being flying mages, since Spring Camilla has better defensive stats while Summer Corrin has better offensive stats. Roll if you desperately need a flying mage for some reason or if you really like Nowi I guess.

Neko Sakura's kit would be better on Felicia (her weapon, Warding Stance or Guard if your Felicia already has Distant Defence, which is slightly better for Felicia since she really doesn't need to worry about dragons). Her weapon could also be inherited to Kagero, as with her high atk and effective damage scaling with atk, she'll suddenly have great viability against mages of any kind, be they armors, fliers, infantry or cavaliers. It'll look absurd but this weapon could see Kagero return to the meta game.

Henry is just meh. A Reinhardt counter. Defence is pretty poor, will be eaten alive by red units. The only advantage he has over other res-tanky green mages is his armored BST, but it's nothing to write home about. Roll green if you like Henry.

Jakob's artwork is pretty weak, and I don't like him as a character, but he's the best unit on the banner by a long shot. Armored BST (penalty for ranged but still much better than most infantry units), and he has excellent stat distribution for enemy phase murder (high def, high res, good atk, low spd – ideal for QR + Ignis/Glacies). He needs a Killer Bow or Slaying Bow along with Distant Defence A-slot, Quick Riposte B-slot, and the Distant Defence seal. This makes him a great counter to both Brave Lyn and Reinhardt and it makes it very difficult to initiate on him safely with a ranged attacker. He could also run Close Counter quite effectively. Spamming Ward Armors would make him even nastier and you could theoretically just run 4 Jakobs, each with Ward Armors and either Distant Defence or Close Counter, and you should expect to see plenty of defence wins. Maybe stick Cancel Affinity on one of them just in case.

Personally, I'ma wait to see what November brings before I go ham on this banner. Given the datamine showing two BHB repeats, no new GHBs and some special skill maps, along with armored team quests, I don't think we'll be seeing anything particularly exciting this month. The Halloween banner is the seasonal banner for this month and there will most probably be a Christmas seasonal banner occupying December. I could be wrong, maybe there will be loads of content this month too, but I doubt it, they'll be working hard to prep content for December.

Edited October 30, 2017 by Wanda

[Ice Dragon]

1 hour ago, Wanda said:

Well, at least the powercreep stopped for this banner. Nothing is particularly enticing about any of these units.

Depends on how you define it.

Jakob and Henry both have the same stat boosts that Ayra has.

[Othin]

Bleh, no luck getting Henry or Nowi so far. Might stop pulling red for now to focus on green, because I really want Henry.

[Okigen]

I LOVE Nowi's dialogue. Remind me of L'arachel or Serra's ridiculousness. But her art puts me off (both the original and the witch version!).

Hope when L'arachel is introduced they don't strip her off.

[Hilda]

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

Depends on how you define it.

Jakob and Henry both have the same stat boosts that Ayra has.

but why?! They are ranged armored units, i dont get why they got such high BST. IS might as well just break the game and wipe all pre CYL from their existence if this keeps going like this. Like seriously how do you handle a gronnblade henry with those stats and armor buffs?! Granted his HP is low but wary fighter exists to prevent doubles, yet he is physicaly and res bulky. Get countered and rekt by gronnblade...

[Ice Dragon]

1 minute ago, Hilda said:

but why?! They are ranged armored units, i dont get why they got such high BST. IS might as well just break the game and wipe all pre CYL from their existence if this keeps going like this. Like seriously how do you handle a gronnblade henry with those stats and armor buffs?! Granted his HP is low but wary fighter exists to prevent doubles, yet he is physicaly and res bulky. Get countered and rekt by gronnblade...

He has only 62 physical bulk. He gets demolished by Brave weapons, and being a ranged unit, he cannot equip Deflect Melee.

You can also just throw a vanilla Selena at him and watch him disintegrate.

[Wanda]

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

Depends on how you define it.

Jakob and Henry both have the same stat boosts that Ayra has.

... They're armored units. They're supposed to have high stats. The point is that Jakob is just Sheena with more atk and less def/res, and a bow; Henry is, what, Sonya with more defence and a worse weapon? They're limited to 1-move unless they use Armor March. Jakob has no player phase except against fliers. Henry will die to virtually any red sword unit or red mage that can double him.

Are they good for armor teams? Yes.

Did armor teams badly need some ranged units so that people could actually use armored teams without whaling for multiple Hectors for the Distant Counter skill? Yes.

Is it powercreep to add ranged armors, esp. considering they have stat penalties befitting of ranged units compared to armored melee units? No, it's not powercreep.

Is Ayra a truer example powercreep? Yes, but not only because of her boosted BST for infantry — she's powercreep because she has a legendary weapon with built in, spd-based Heavy Blade and because she has a 2-cooldown, spd-based Bonfire/Iceberg equivalent.

With +def IV and Steady Stance 3/Close Defence 3, she can hit 49 atk, 40 spd and 40 defence on enemy phase, or with her base kit she can out-duel virtually any green, red, or weak blue unit on player phase. Using the enemy phase build I outlined above, you could add Wrath and she'll out-duel pretty much everything except Effie and Nowi.

Edited October 30, 2017 by Wanda

[bethany81707]

8 minutes ago, Wanda said:

... They're armored units. They're supposed to have high stats. The point is that Jakob is just Sheena with more atk and less def/res, and a bow; Henry is, what, Sonya with more defence and a worse weapon? They're limited to 1-move unless they use Armor March. Jakob has no player phase except against fliers. Henry will die to virtually any red sword unit or red mage that can double him.

Are they good for armor teams? Yes.

Did armor teams badly need some ranged units so that people could actually use armored teams without whaling for multiple Hectors for the Distant Counter skill? Yes.

Is it powercreep to add ranged armors, esp. considering they have stat penalties befitting of ranged units compared to armored melee units? No, it's not powercreep.

Is Ayra a truer example powercreep? Yes, but not only because of her boosted BST for infantry — she's powercreep because she has a legendary weapon with built in, spd-based Heavy Blade and because she has a 2-cooldown, spd-based Bonfire/Iceberg equivalent.

With +def IV and Steady Stance 3/Close Defence 3, she can hit 49 atk, 40 spd and 40 defence on enemy phase, or with her base kit she can out-duel virtually any green, red, or weak blue unit on player phase. Using the enemy phase build I outlined above, you could add Wrath and she'll out-duel pretty much everything except Effie and Nowi.

Nope- they got their stat-nerf mostly un-nerfed. They're not equal to armoured melees, but they're closer than they should be.

[Wanda]

Still not powercreep.

Henry certainly isn't. He can easily be built into a Reinhardt/Brave Lyn counter, but he's easily wrecked by red mages, sword-users and probably brave axe users like Cherche. If anything, his addition to the game might just increase the number of people bringing a red unit, but I imagine most bring at least one red unit anyway.

Jakob... I am reluctant to call him powercrept either. Distant Counter Sheena is just as good when it comes to the task of tanking and Ignis-bombing. I imagine some will want to put a Brave Bow on him, but I think his crap armored mobility makes this a bad idea. Bridelia, Brave Lyn, Leon, Innes, Setsuna or even plain old Klein — they're all better candidates for the Brave Bow as they can actually get around a map and slay teams quickly, especially with dancer support. Jakob would struggle mobility-wise, he'd need a dancer and Armor March and suddenly your team composition isn't looking so hot, and neither is your Arena score.

Jakob is best built as an enemy phase Ignis bomber with a Killer/Slaying Bow and Quick Riposte. He'll fit in very well with Black Knight, Hector, Halloween Henry, DC Sheena, DC Effie, especially with a bunch of Wards stacking up his defensive stats. With Close Counter he'd naturally to good damage to melee units and obliterate melee fliers, while also threatening mages etc. Brave Bow is just wasted on him. He has so much potential as an enemy phase unit, but no matter how people build him, he requires a lot of investment to become a great unit.

What I'm trying to say is that for Jakob to be an example of powercreep, he'd have to be a straight upgrade on existing bow users — well, his atk is equal to Bridelia's but has no speed or mobility to run Firesweep or quad builds; he is only slightly def-tankier than Leon but has resistance because he's armored, but has less speed. Leon also comes with the appropriate base kit of a Slaying Bow, Ignis and Guard to run a tank/enemy phase bomb build, while Jakob has to inherit these skills. Hell, Leon doesn't want to run the Ignis build anyway, because he has such great attack and defence and infantry movement he wants to run a Brave Bow 100%. Jakob is, like, only powercreep compared to Faye or Gordin, who are the worst archers anyway. Even Clarisse is better than them.

And if to compare Jakob to res-tanky archers, Innes has more speed and Nidhogg to make him immortal with adjacent allies, while Niles has much higher resistance and spd to make him better at tanking mages and dealing bigger damage with Glacies or Iceberg. He also comes with a Killer Bow in his base kit, while Jakob comes with a gimmick bow designed to screw with buff teams — except it doesn't work on the buffed unit that attacks him, so it's kinda pointless. Sure, Niles and Innes don't have access to armor buffs, but they don't need them, they just need to double up on Distant Defence skills/seals or Fortress Res if Innes is on a budget. So not really seeing the powercreep. Innes is himself a better example of powercreep, since he literally comes with an almost optimal base kit of Fortress Res, Iceberg, Nidhogg and Cancel Affinity while simultaneously having considerably more attack than Niles even after the Fortress Res penalty has been applied.

Meanwhile units like Ayra come with an almost optimal base kit and stats that are a total upgrade over practically every other sword unit. Even my +spd Lucina only matches up because she has Fury 3, and Ayra has more defence so she will have better longevity in battle.

And don't even get started on Witch Nowi/Neko Sakura. Nowi has a laughable 32 speed and a joke base kit, while Neko Sakura is just a joke and anyone with a Felicia or a Kagero should just SI her immediately. Nowi should be sacked for Hone Fliers immediately or saved for Aversa, who will most probably be a better red flying mage.

Edited October 30, 2017 by Wanda

[Shoblongoo]

Opened Laguz-Blackface Sakura Pack #1, Pick #5. Solid looking anti-mage. I'll use her. Nice to see a new Reinhardt counter and decent knife user in the meta.

[Ice Dragon]

1 hour ago, Wanda said:

... They're armored units. They're supposed to have high stats.

"They're supposed to have high stats" is not the same as "they're supposed to have as high of stats as they do".

The standard penalty for ranged units is -3 to base stats and -15 to growths compared to their melee-ranged counterparts. Henry and Jakob have -2 to base stats and -5 to growths due to the fact that they have the same bonuses that Ayra does over their standard class's stats.

Note that I'm not arguing that they are or aren't power creep, but I'm saying that you seem to be missing an understanding of how stats work in this game.

[EricaofRenais]

Well I managed to snag H! Henry in three pulls, I hope I can snag Jakob as well.  Time to gather more orbs and try again latter.  I really like H! Henry his stats are good and so is his art he will be making my armor team great because now I will have 2 units with armor march.  I am also really glad that I finally have a Henry who can do damage to the enemy.

[Okigen]

So... I assume the general consensus is that none of these units is meta-breaking? 

Edited October 30, 2017 by Okigen

[Shoblongoo]

8 minutes ago, Okigen said:

So... I assume the general of consensus is that none of these units is meta-breaking? 

Yeah there's no PA! Azuras or Brave Lyns in the bunch.

 

[Roflolxp54]

Cleared the Lunatic Chain Challenge for P13+14 (the map selection banner makes Sigurd look like a vampire when put with Witch Nowi) on first try using Reinhardt, Brave Lyn, PA Azura, and Olivia. Monster Jakob is the enemy unit I had the most trouble taking down simply because he’s very bulky in Lunatic CC; I had to use one of the dancers to chip him before the ranged attackers can nuke him with one of them dying to put him to low HP for somebody else to finish off.

Got a +Atk/-Def Monster Jakob. Would like Nekomata Sakura at the very least.

Edited October 30, 2017 by Roflolxp54

[DefyingFates]

Now that the units are out I've seen a few people upset that they're underwhelming (weird considering the powercreep talk above, but still). Is that a common belief here as well or do you think everyone's just surprised that we didn't get any game-breakers for the first time in two months?