Do you want, and how could FEH incorporate laguz

[DarkLordIvy]

5 minutes ago, NegativeExponents- said:

Well, I agree with you. Colorless would definitely become bloated and ideally I would prefer if they were available in all colors, similar to dragons but also available as colorless, however that feels like I’m asking for too much.

???? How would distributing them among all four colors be asking too much they've already done it for the dragons in the game? 

 

Just now, Ice Dragon said:

Fire Emblem's dragons are literally elves that transform into dragons. Tellius's non-dragon Laguz are literally less-long-lived elves that transform into animals.

Pointy ears and everything.

I think that is the best description I've ever seen for dragons and laguz. lol

[NegativeExponents-]

Just now, DarkLordIvy said:

???? How would distributing them among all four colors be asking too much they've already done it for the dragons in the game? 

But there’s no colorless dragon? At least not yet anyway

[Baldrick]

Dragon Laguz can use breaths like Manaketes do. Red dragons red (whoa), white dragon blue, black dragons green because that's the "Divine" Element.

Beasts and birds could be colourless melee units. It's the least populated colour, so adding just a dozen or so wouldn't unbalance things.

[Humanoid]

8 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Fire Emblem's dragons are literally elves that transform into dragons. Tellius's non-dragon Laguz are literally less-long-lived elves that transform into animals.

Pointy ears and everything.

Yeah, but in terms of feel, there's a rather large gap between dragons and the mythology that surrounds them and, well, regular forest animals. Yeah, things like werewolves are present in some cultures but none so universal as dragons. That said, I'm hardly saying that dragons are an essential part of fantasy either, it's just marginally easier to give them a pass because of their ubiquity.

Compared to dragons (the ears are barely there in cases like Fae and Corrin for example, which is a good thing as gigantic dagger-like ears are dumb), I'm also not a fan of them adding even more of the animal features into the humanoid form, talking about thing like Kaden/Keaton's tail and furry ears for instance. I'm not sure if the Tellius ones had tails or not, granted, but I see the ears.

[Ice Dragon]

3 minutes ago, Humanoid said:

Yeah, but in terms of feel, there's a rather large gap between dragons and the mythology that surrounds them and, well, regular forest animals. Yeah, things like werewolves are present in some cultures but none so universal as dragons. That said, I'm hardly saying that dragons are an essential part of fantasy either, it's just marginally easier to give them a pass because of their ubiquity.

Dragons are a European thing. Asia's "dragons" are chimeras with completely different lore. The Americas didn't have dragons at all.

European dragons are the embodiments of the negative aspects of the human mind, most typically greed. Asian dragons are the often anthropomorphized embodiments of forces of nature, typically those related to the sky and water, and are typically divine.

In most European mythology, dragons are things that humans can become, but can never revert from. Chinese dragons, as typical of many of their supernatural beings, are capable of shapeshifting at will (Tang Sanzang's horse in Journey to the West is a dragon).

 

But that still doesn't make Fire Emblem's dragons any more than shapeshifting elves.

 

14 minutes ago, Humanoid said:

Compared to dragons (the ears are barely there in cases like Fae and Corrin for example, which is a good thing as gigantic dagger-like ears are dumb), I'm also not a fan of them adding even more of the animal features into the humanoid form, talking about thing like Kaden/Keaton's tail and furry ears for instance. I'm not sure if the Tellius ones had tails or not, granted, but I see the ears.

Mila has a horn and long ears. And wings made from her hair.

Tellius's beasts have fuzzy elf ears and tails. Its birds have elf ears and wings.

[Nowi's Husband]

I hope they don't make Laguz into colorless melee units, cause dragon emblem would have no way to deal with high resistance colorless melee units.  It would be back to the way it was before weapon refinement where units like Niles, Innes, Brave Lyn, and Kagero were a massive pain to deal with.  

[Baldrick]

^^Dragon emblem doesn't need any help, frankly.

 

29 minutes ago, Humanoid said:

Compared to dragons (the ears are barely there in cases like Fae and Corrin for example, which is a good thing as gigantic dagger-like ears are dumb), I'm also not a fan of them adding even more of the animal features into the humanoid form, talking about thing like Kaden/Keaton's tail and furry ears for instance. I'm not sure if the Tellius ones had tails or not, granted, but I see the ears.

I wouldn't have thought you of all people would want less humanoid races in FE...

For the laguz, I think being more humanoid works for the narrative, and the revelation that

 

they share a common ancestor with the beorc is less forced that way.

That said, more "alien" races would also be interesting. Especially in terms of culture; even though they share physical similarities, dragon laguz are quite unlike beast and bird laguz.

 

Edited February 13, 2018 by Baldrick

[Humanoid]

22 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Dragons are a European thing. Asia's "dragons" are chimeras with completely different lore. The Americas didn't have dragons at all.

European dragons are the embodiments of the negative aspects of the human mind, most typically greed. Asian dragons are the often anthropomorphized embodiments of forces of nature, typically those related to the sky and water, and are typically divine.

In most European mythology, dragons are things that humans can become, but can never revert from. Chinese dragons, as typical of many of their supernatural beings, are capable of shapeshifting at will (Tang Sanzang's horse in Journey to the West is a dragon).

 

But that still doesn't make Fire Emblem's dragons any more than shapeshifting elves.

 

Mila has a horn and long ears. And wings made from her hair.

Tellius's beasts have fuzzy elf ears and tails. Its birds have elf ears and wings.

Agreed that I don't think we're supposed to make more of FE dragons than is presented at face value. It's shallow, but conventional enough that hardly anyone would bat an eyelid at the nature of their inclusion. I suppose we have Tolkien to blame for that, but whatever. Now I know that foxes do hold quite a bit more mythological value in Japan than in the west so I can see why they of all animals seem most represented in the series, though that's pretty much all I know about that phenomenon.

When we start getting to rabbits though, eh, that's really stretching it and it feels more like completing a checklist of animals to include than a legitimate part of worldbuilding. I guess ultimately what does it in for me is that dragons have that all powerful power of precedent, even to a newcomer to the series, and that's certainly not something shared with the other races. (And as an Australian, it's also hard to see rabbits and foxes as anything other than destructive vermin to be eradicated)

The ubiquity of dragons despite their many forms is certainly fascinating, and theorised to come from coalescing the defining traits of mankind's most feared enemies. And I would certainly argue dragons of a sort appear in indigenous American culture, one only need look as far as Quetzalcoatl who surely qualifies.

 

11 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

^^Dragon emblem doesn't need any help, frankly.

 

I wouldn't have thought you of all people would want less humanoid races in FE...

For the laguz, I think being more humanoid works for the narrative, and the revelation that

  Reveal hidden contents

they share a common ancestor with the beorc is less forced that way.

That said, more "alien" races would also be interesting. Especially in terms of culture; even though they share physical similarities, dragon laguz are quite unlike beast and bird laguz.

 

Touché.

Granted the username is just the stupidity of a kid choosing a bad screen name almost 20 years ago, and being stuck with it since due to inertia.

Edited February 13, 2018 by Humanoid

[Shadow Mir]

4 hours ago, Anacybele said:

Laguz could work just like the dragons do, but with claw, fang, or talon weapons instead of breaths. I don't see how they'd be hard to implement. Also, they're the most wanted Tellius characters right now, so they're definitely going to get in sometime.

I also really want them myself, as Ranulf and Tibarn are awesome and Ranulf is one of my favorite Tellius characters.

You make it sound so easy to implement them, but is it really...???

Anyway, I could care less if they don't show up - if there are any characters I want to see in Heroes, they're most definitely not laguz.

[Anacybele]

7 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

You make it sound so easy to implement them, but is it really...???

Of course it is. Other characters don't work exactly as they do in their original game. Like Ninian couldn't transform into a dragon and fight that way in FE7. Gaius didn't actually use daggers, he used swords. And so on. It wouldn't be weird for the laguz to not have their usual transformation gauge.

[Humanoid]

Yeah, you'd just have to genericise the weapons as "claw", regardless of whether it's technically a claw, beak, horn or whatever. You can still name the individual weapons something like "Sharp Beak" or whatever but it'd be implemented with the claw weapon type, just like shurikens are implemented as daggers.

Then it's just a fairly straightforward implementation of "claw" weapons as a parallel to breath weapons - red claw, blue claw, green claw and possibly grey claw, the only difference being that they'll default to physical damage. And since "effective against" weapons work on the target's weapon type, it's no trouble to implement beastkiller weapons either.

[Ice Dragon]

1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

You make it sound so easy to implement them, but is it really...???

Yes, it really is.

 

1 hour ago, Humanoid said:

Yeah, you'd just have to genericise the weapons as "claw", regardless of whether it's technically a claw, beak, horn or whatever. You can still name the individual weapons something like "Sharp Beak" or whatever but it'd be implemented with the claw weapon type, just like shurikens are implemented as daggers.

Then it's just a fairly straightforward implementation of "claw" weapons as a parallel to breath weapons - red claw, blue claw, green claw and possibly grey claw, the only difference being that they'll default to physical damage. And since "effective against" weapons work on the target's weapon type, it's no trouble to implement beastkiller weapons either.

Radiant Dawn already gives the weapon type a name of "strike". There's no reason not to use that name.

[Hilda]

3 hours ago, Nowi's Husband said:

I hope they don't make Laguz into colorless melee units, cause dragon emblem would have no way to deal with high resistance colorless melee units.  It would be back to the way it was before weapon refinement where units like Niles, Innes, Brave Lyn, and Kagero were a massive pain to deal with.  

oh you mean like now? where its a massive pain now for 80% of the roster to deal with Dragons?

 

[Nowi's Husband]

3 hours ago, Hilda said:

oh you mean like now? where its a massive pain now for 80% of the roster to deal with Dragons?

 

I don't have any issue fighting dragons myself in AA.  Just bait them with the melee weapon that has WTA and SB + QR is useless.  And I'm talking unmerged units vs +10 dragons, cause I frontload my high merges in the first team.  But dragons can't get WTA over colorless due to lack of Raventome equivalent that all other emblem teams (horse, armor, flier) have access to.

[redlight]

How do you think IS will introduce these units into the game? Personally I think that they'll add 3 of each tribe plus 1 heron into the summoning pool when a version update comes. Some of them 3-4*, some 4-5* and a few exclusively 5* like Reyson or Ranulf.

[Lau]

I like the idea of having them work like the dragons.

Roll on Ranulf, Tibarn, Naesala, Reyson and Leanne!

...Though I'd rather have Xane, but he's another can of worms.

[Thane]

Some of my favorite characters in the series are Laguz, so I definitely want them added as soon as possible.

Frankly, I don't really care how they're added so long as it's done well. If they need to use Beaststones/Dragonstones for some reason in order to fit with other future shapeshifters, then that's fine, just like how the Valentian mages use tomes. 

It would be fun if steps were taken to differentiate them, however, like giving the beast Laguz free movement through forest tiles.

[Rhubarb]

I'm pretty much in the same boat. I just want them implemented, the how isn't as important. 

I can see Heroes taking the red, green, blue system in some fashion, however. Dragon Laguz could share dragonstones with those already in for simplicity's sake, and non-Dragon beast units have their own set of beaststones. 

I really like the above idea of free movement through forests for beast.

[thecrimsonflash]

having the laguz function the same as manaketes is not unreasonable, laguz stones exist and I'm certain all but a few would really care about the retcon.

[Sylphid]

Yes, definitely want laguz.
And frankly I don't care that much how they're implemented, though I'm partial to the manakete-style spread around in all colors but with a common weapon type (strike), except dragons who can easily be included with the other breath users (frankly speaking, not doing the dragon laguz that way makes no sense to me, it's such an easy solution).

That said, I really don't want to see them divided to colors based on beast/bird/dragon laguz types, because the flier and dragon pools of one color would become extremely bloated compared to others (extra minus points to anyone suggesting birds should be blue).

Edited February 13, 2018 by Sylphid

[Cute Chao]

58 minutes ago, Sylphid said:

That said, I really don't want to see them divided to colors based on beast/bird/dragon laguz types, because the flier and dragon pools of one color would become extremely bloated compared to others (extra minus points to anyone suggesting birds should be blue).

I'd rather it be based on species, so crows were green , eagles were blue, for example... Not sure if that would be possible, but they do it for dragons. Herons could be grey :) Reyson and Leanne could be flying healing refresher units... Really don't know if that could work xD

[Sylphid]

27 minutes ago, Cute Chao said:

I'd rather it be based on species, so crows were green , eagles were blue, for example... Not sure if that would be possible, but they do it for dragons. Herons could be grey :) Reyson and Leanne could be flying healing refresher units... Really don't know if that could work xD

Yeah based on their animal form it would be okay, though if herons were grey we would still be missing laguz fliers from one of the main colors. Which is better than missing them from two.
Beasts would be easy with cats, tigers and wolves. Taguels, Garou and Kitsune could probably be thrown in with wolves. Or Taguels could be separated as colorless melee to differentiate them from all the others being beasts.
Herons as colorless make perfect sense in my opinion. I think back during the early days of Heroes I proposed herons as staff using dancers lol.

[Humanoid]

52 minutes ago, Cute Chao said:

I'd rather it be based on species, so crows were green , eagles were blue, for example... Not sure if that would be possible, but they do it for dragons. Herons could be grey :) Reyson and Leanne could be flying healing refresher units... Really don't know if that could work xD

The heal would have to be an incidental heal effect like Breath of Life or somesuch because Heal and Dance both occupy the assist slot. Combining them would have the problem of not being able to heal units until they've moved. Dance + a status effect offensive staff would be totally fine of course.

Edited February 13, 2018 by Humanoid

[Cute Chao]

1 minute ago, Humanoid said:

The heal would have to be an incidental heal effect like Breath of Life or somesuch because Heal and Dance both occupy the assist slot. Combining them would have the problem of not being able to heal units until they've moved.

Completely forgot that xD

But yeah, a healing thing could work, like in their original game :)

[Usana]

I personally hope that we at least get a colorless melee even if we also get them in standard colors. I just want a good colorless pool to pull from. Colorless has the problem of needing every point they can get since they can't rely on a 20% advantage. And yet EVERY colorless unit is a ranged unit and takes a stat penalty. So yeah I would like a melee colorless to round out all the ranged colorless. Having beasts having a colorless and colored options would also be 4 types for each color. I like that symmetry.

Edited February 13, 2018 by Usana