General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread

[Humanoid]

Yeah, a couple of weeks ago I decided I'd have a go at catching up on Dragonflowers, mostly because I was organising my barracks and I wanted to get it done for the old irrelevant units before I threw them all into the reserves. I'd only ever done Ordeals half-heartedly in the past and so there were a *lot* of them to do. For the four-star units, the old ones I found I could mow through like a dozen at a time with no fuss, but for the new ones... well, let's just say I will only ever do one a day with the bonus stats, and I only remember to do it every 2-3 days, so it's a slog of a process that I'm still not done with.

That said, there's a bit of satisfaction seeing all the Book 2 unit done, no more having to look at the rows of old units worth 8 Dragonflowers each. The Book 1 units though, yeah they can stay in that purgatory forever.

[Ice Dragon]

And refines are up:

Aversa's Night

Base effect is changed to -4 to all stats (previously -3 to all stats). The Panic effect is unchanged, and the condition is unchanged. Additional effect added that inflicts -4 Atk/Spd/Def to opponent in combat if HP is 25% or higher. Permanent +3 Res is unchanged.

Refine effect is -4 Atk/Spd/Res to opponent in combat and Penalty Doubler on Atk, Spd and Res, all effects if opponent's HP is 75% or higher or if opponent has a Penalty.

A bit underwhelming that the base condition is unchanged and that all of the other effects affect combat performance and are not support effects.

That said, her combat performance is now more usable due to Penalty Doubler simply being a good effect, even if her Penalties aren't as good or as consistent as Gunnthra's. Her Penalties are still not terribly reliable due to the adjacency condition largely being out of your control and the HP comparison still being troublesome due to the refine making no change to it.

Hawk King Claw

Base effect is upgraded to also grant +5 Atk/Def on top of the existing guaranteed follow-up. Condition is upgraded to if opponent's HP is 75% or higher or if unit is transformed (previously only if opponent's HP is 100%). Permanent +3 Atk is unchanged.

Refine effect is +5 Atk/Def and +1 Special charge rate, both effects if HP is 25% or higher.

Almost exactly what I predicted. Just missing the extra effect I'd have liked. Galeforce away.

Sylgr

Base effect is upgraded to +5 Atk/Spd (previously +4) and now also deals additional damage equal to 15% of Spd. Condition is upgraded to if Spd is greater than opponent's Spd or if opponent's HP is 75% or higher (previously only Spd comparison). Permanent +3 Spd is unchanged.

Refine effect inflicts an in-combat penalty to all stats equal to the higher of Ylgr's bonus or the opponent's penalty, calculated per stat, against all enemies within 3 spaces. Additionally, grants +4 Atk/Spd if HP is 25% or higher.

No defensive effect is a bit of a bummer, though Ylgr should at least reliably hit the opponent with -12 Atk if she runs Atk/Spd Menace with her weapon's refine effect. Additionally, she no longer needs to run Life and Death to reliably activate her base effect, which should help a bit with her bulk.

Offensively, she gains +9/+12 from her weapon plus an additional 11 points of damage when maxed out. Compared to Legault, she has +7/+2 before accounting for Hurricane Dagger's and Sylgr's bonus- and penalty-based effects.

It's okay, but the lack of a defensive effect is still disappointing.

Foxkit Fang

Base effect is upgraded to +4 to all stats and an additional bonus to all stats equal to 80% of the difference between the unit and opponent's Res stats at the start of combat, with a maximum of 8 (previously +0 to all stats and an additional 50% of the difference, maximum 8 ). Condition has been removed (previously if opponent is melee weapon). Permanent +3 Res is unchanged.

Refine effect is +4 to all stats and additional effects based on a Res comparison, all effects with a Blow-or-Unity condition. If Res is at least 1 higher than opponent's, gains the Guard effect. If Res is at least 5 higher than opponent's, gains the offensive half of Null Follow-Up.

Now grants a minimum of +8 to all stats. If Selkie's Res is 10 higher than the opponent's at the start of combat she gets an additional +8 to all stats. If her Res is 5 higher than the opponent's in combat, she also gets Guard and the offensive half of Null Follow-Up.

+16 Atk is pretty good if she can get the maximum boost from the initial Res comparison. At the very least, when compared to modern units, this puts her at the equivalent of about 39 base Atk (counting the fact that most weapons grant +6 Atk), which is quite good. She'll probably still struggle against tanks with actual Res stats due to the fact that she'll have a hard time having a large visible Res lead, but at the very least, most non-dragon melee tanks tend to have relatively low Res.

It's worth noting that Fury 4 is slightly better than skills that grant +7 Atk/Spd if Selkie isn't able to cap out on her Res comparison, but not by a much (+0.2/+0.2/+7.2/+7.2). It's probably still better to run pure Atk/Spd investment, at least for a player-phase build.

Vedrfolnir's Egg

Base effect is upgraded to add Order's Sentence's (Litrblade using the ally with the highest total buffs within 2 spaces) effect on top of the existing +4 to all stats. Condition is upgraded to if HP is 25% or higher (previously 75% or higher). Permanent +3 Spd is unchanged.

Refine effect grants unit and allies within 2 spaces +6 Atk/Spd and Air/Ground Order at the start of the turn if there is at least one ally within 2 spaces. Additionally grants +5 Atk/Spd in combat if there is at least one ally within 3 spaces.

Total of +9/9/4/4 in combat plus +6/6/0/0 in buffs plus a generally feasible maximum of +24 Atk from Order's Sentence's effect (12 of which is trivial with the ally buff effect). And Air/Ground Order to herself and nearby allies.

Sounds like a good deal.

 

Overall thoughts

Spring Veronica's feels like the best of the bunch. The effect is strong and reliable and doesn't really give up combat performance to gain support and mobility effects. The last set of limited Divine Codes managed to get my Spring Veronica to +10, which is really nice timing.

Tibarn's is a close second. It's simple, but does exactly what he needs it to do.

The other three are all good, but not particularly noteworthy. Selkie's is probably the best of the three due to the sheer magnitude of the numbers involved, though that's largely just to compensate for Selkie's base stats being underwhelming. Ylgr's is good offensively and is stronger and more consistent than Legault's refine from last month, but lacking a defensive effect could be a problem due to Ylgr's low bulk. Aversa's would be good if Gunnthra and Hrid didn't already exist and do her job better than her.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Ice Dragon

[Xenomata]

Huh, PM1 included the units base stats in the image. That's nice.

 

• Tibarn gets far more forgiving trigger conditions (BE TRANSFORMED AND DON'T BE NEARLY DEAD yeah I think I can hack it) for Atk/Def +10, guaranteed follow-up, and special charge +1 per units attack. Honestly the biggest criticizm is that he's now so possibly strong (especially now that he doesn't need to carry Heavy Blade anymore) that he might not be able to get Galeforce fully charged in just one round of combat. Otherwise not a whole lot to complain about.
• Veronica wasn't a supportive unit before, hell she didn't even care about nearby allies, but wow now she does. A total of Atk/Spd/Def/Res +9/9/4/4 for being healthy (the condition being more forgiving was expected) and being within 3 spaces of an ally is great, the ally-based Bladetome effect was not at all expected but also nice, but having the ability to grant allies (and herself) Guidance and Atk/Spd +6 was probably not on anyones predictions... like at all.
  ...dang. They sure do give some nice perks to seasonal refines.
• Aversa's base effect was... only slightly improved. A whole one extra point of debuffs, woo. Didn't even change the HP requirement or change the Res boost to an HP boost. Also Atk/Spd/Res debuff during combat. The refine...looks like a Res version of LegLucina's refine. So... all combat improvements and nothing to improve her support game? But... I already very reliably can avoid her debuff, so... yeah I'm not sweating not caring about this refine, so she can go back in the coma ward.

Okay that's the refines I wasn't invested in, what did Ylgr and Selkie get?

• Ylgr got the 15% Spd bonus damage boost, that's appreciated. Base effect is also a little less demanding and slightly better, so... yeah that's alright. Refine... uh... mhm... so... hm... and also Atk/Spd +4.
  ...sorry, I'm not quite sure how to interpret Ylgr's refine effect. If it's calculating each stat bonus independently, that means that if she has Atk +4 and Def +6, then any nearby enemies are inflicted Atk -4 and Def -6 right? Or does that mean the enemy is inflicted with All Stat -6 because the Def bonus on Ylgr is the highest? Well... whatever I guess, it's still overall better than a slightly weird Swift Sparrow.
• Selkie's refine already starting strong by removing the Melee-only requirement. Seriously, that alone is great. The max bonus from the Res comparison is slightly more achievable (or basically unchanged depending on how high your Selkie's Res is), and the extra +4 to all stats is nice too.
  The refine is an extra +4 all stats and even more Res comparisons for a Guard effect and player-NFU. (for initiating or for being near an ally) Getting both effects should be stupid easy, I mean my Selkie is sitting at 44 Res at +10m +10df.

So... yeah, Tibarn got straight upgrades that might have accidentally made him TOO strong, Veronica became surprisingly demanding for companionship, Aversa can go seduce an armadillo for all I care, Ylgr is a little confusing but could theoretically be nice (though runs into the issue of not being Courtly Fan + Windsweep), and Selkie is just straight better.

I've stopped caring about who is the "winner", because to be honest the refines lately have been straight good upgrades for the units who get them, unlike a lot of past refines which were questionable at best. If anything I'd say Aversa got the most counterproductive refine just because she's not a combat unit and she never was, so giving her nothing but upgrades to her combat doesn't make me want to go for her refine (and putting her in combat just lowers her HP so why would i do that). Ylgr was slightly underwhelming since she didn't get quite as much as demote daggers got, but she's still better than before.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Xenomata

[Jotari]

Why oh why didn't they give Aversa some kind of HP restoring feature? So long as her main gimmick relies on her HP, you're going to avoid putting her in combat unless she can one shot. And since her ability requires her opponent to be above 75% hp, it's like she's designed to not do that.

Tibarn is as expected. Now I need to think of a new user for the Heavy Blade seal. There was someone a while back I wanted to give it to but didn't. Hmm....

[MagicCanonBalls]

Am I being numb because this batch feels very underwhelming. Selkie effect is nice but her stats aren't, especially as a non-regular 4 star unit making it difficult to get merges.

Aversa is just IS trying to limit support function because they are much more meta resilient compared to combat nukes.

[Florete]

None of them are bad but none of them are amazing (by today's standards). Doesn't even feel worth ranking them. Pretty unfortunate that Aversa only got combat, I was looking forward to hers being something more interesting like Loki's was.

[Yggi]

Compared to last time's refines these seem better (at least on a surface level):
-Aversa (the only one I was really interested in) got plegian effect and some other in combat stuff, which is something she lacked of course, but the condition to inflict the penalties is still the same. Out of everyone, she got the "worst" treatment, but she's alright, more usable and I'll give my free 5* copy a budget build to utilise it.
-Tibarn only lacks the slaying effect to really be able to do everything on it's own, at least builds for him can replace the HB Sacred Seal with something else, I guess. Solid.
-Selkie? Solid too. The lackluster condition got rid in favor of a lot of bonus stats + offensive part of nfu will help her be an unstoppable beast, litterally.
-I put Ylgr's refine as the second best of the batch, the Hold effect, with how versatile it is, gives her a lot more utility, and I prefer it over what was theorized the previous days (basically a tweaked Hurricane Dagger).
-Veronica is busted wtfff! She really did a 180° with this refine. Easily the best of the batch!

If I had to predict the May refines, I'd say Gharnef, Duma, Picnic Felicia, Velouria and Kaden. I'm not confident in putting a 4*, I feel like we can do one more month without one. I hope I'm wrong and we can return to 6 refines per month pls....

[Rinco]

I'm happy with Aversa's. I use her in Arena and sometimes I would wish she could kill someone to make my life easier. She's still providing the support I want her to (a little bit better) and now she can score some kills.

Also makes her better for PoL, but that's just a bonus.

[Diovani Bressan]

18 hours ago, Xenomata said:

...sorry, I'm not quite sure how to interpret Ylgr's refine effect. If it's calculating each stat bonus independently, that means that if she has Atk +4 and Def +6, then any nearby enemies are inflicted Atk -4 and Def -6 right? Or does that mean the enemy is inflicted with All Stat -6 because the Def bonus on Ylgr is the highest? Well... whatever I guess, it's still overall better than a slightly weird Swift Sparrow.

Ylgr uses the highest of her stats or foe's penalties to inflict in-combat debuffs on foes, just like rein skills. Each stat is calculated separately.

So it's pretty much your first example: If Ylgr has Atk+4 and Def+6, she will inflict Atk-4 and Def-6 during combat on foes within 3 spaces of her. It uses the higher value of that stat to use for the Rein/Hold effect for that same stat. 

I believe the penalty on foe only works on that especific foe. So if she has 3 foes around her, and one of them has Spd-7 from Ylgr's Chill Spd 3, only that foe will have Spd-7 during combat and not all 3 foes.

20 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

It's okay, but the lack of a defensive effect is still disappointing.

I wished she had a desperation effect as well if a certain condition is met, similar to Jamke.

If Ylgr has Atk+6 or foe has Atk-6, her opponent will have Atk-6 during combat... which is kinda a Def/Res+6. It's kinda a defensive effect. Just avoid foes with Dull effects.

[Ice Dragon]

39 minutes ago, Diovani Bressan said:

Ylgr uses the highest of her stats or foe's penalties to inflict in-combat debuffs on foes, just like rein skills. Each stat is calculated separately.

So it's pretty much your first example: If Ylgr has Atk+4 and Def+6, she will inflict Atk-4 and Def-6 during combat on foes within 3 spaces of her. It uses the higher value of that stat to use for the Rein/Hold effect for that same stat. 

I believe the penalty on foe only works on that especific foe. So if she has 3 foes around her, and one of them has Spd-7 from Ylgr's Chill Spd 3, only that foe will have Spd-7 during combat and not all 3 foes.

@Xenomata

Exactly this. If Ylgr has +4/6/0/0 and two enemies in range have -7/0/7/0 and -0/0/7/7, then the two enemies will end up with an in-combat -7/6/7/0 and -4/6/7/7, respectively.

If the enemies negate their own Penalties, they'll only be hit with -4/6/0/0.

If the enemies negate their opponent's Bonuses, they'll be hit with -7/0/7/0 and -0/0/7/7, respectively, in combat against Ylgr herself, but will be hit with the full -7/6/7/0 and -4/6/7/7, respectively, against any other unit (since they can't negate Ylgr's Bonuses when in combat with a different unit).

 

39 minutes ago, Diovani Bressan said:

I wished she had a desperation effect as well if a certain condition is met, similar to Jamke.

If Ylgr has Atk+6 or foe has Atk-6, her opponent will have Atk-6 during combat... which is kinda a Def/Res+6. It's kinda a defensive effect. Just avoid foes with Dull effects.

Desperation with the same condition as her base effect would have been nice.

The -6 or -7 Atk from her refine effect is nice to have, but isn't really enough. My current benchmark for single-hit bulk is 80 (+10+10 Fallen Edelgard with her base kit has 83 effective Atk excluding Bonfire damage), and +10+20 Ylgr hits 82 physical bulk with a -6 Atk in-combat debuff, which is way too close for comfort.

For contrast, +10+20 Legault has 99 physical bulk with his maximum damage reduction despite having only 1 more HP and 2 more Def.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Ice Dragon

[Xenomata]

2 hours ago, Diovani Bressan said:

Ylgr uses the highest of her stats or foe's penalties to inflict in-combat debuffs on foes, just like rein skills. Each stat is calculated separately.

So it's pretty much your first example: If Ylgr has Atk+4 and Def+6, she will inflict Atk-4 and Def-6 during combat on foes within 3 spaces of her. It uses the higher value of that stat to use for the Rein/Hold effect for that same stat. 

I believe the penalty on foe only works on that especific foe. So if she has 3 foes around her, and one of them has Spd-7 from Ylgr's Chill Spd 3, only that foe will have Spd-7 during combat and not all 3 foes.

Hm... that would theoretically make her pretty alright as a Save beacon, being able to debuff enemies with -6 to all stats if she manages to get as many buffs beforehand. She would be competing with Witchy Nowi (who targets Atk/Spd/Res), Kinshi Hinoka (targeting Atk/Spd/Def), and Ashnard (targeting Atk/Def), but unlike them she can potentially target every single stat. The issue, therefore, is getting every stat bonus on her... but a unit like Titania or Seth could do it if given all the correct Tactics skills, and Fae can just flatout do that.

...maybe I'm overthinking it though. She would be just fine taking Atk/Spd Menace and getting a Def bonus from elsewhere to get the Atk/Spd/Def -6 she ultimately wants. I think I'll stick with Courtly Fan for now though, that hasn't failed me yet (and I wanna refine Selkie first)

Edited April 7, 2022 by Xenomata

[XRay]

Aversa's refine is meh. I do not think she is worth the Divine Dew into unless you have already invested in better debuffers like Gunnthrá and Hríd, and you want her to pad out a debuffing team.

Sylgr is basically an old fashioned nuke. I do not think she is worth investing into with so much better nukes around. She has some supportive capabilities, but I do not think she is remotely comparable to supporters that provide damage reduction, or Dancers/Singers for player phase teams.

Tibarn can Galeforce better, although he still needs some help without Slaying.

Seems like Veronica: Spring Princess is designed to work in a Save tank team, particularly with Elimine. Outside of that though, I do not really see her being relevant with that horrible positioning requirement. 

Selkie got Flow Guard, but I do not think it is enough to make her desirable compared to other units.

I think Tibarn is the best of the bunch, but he is not a must have either if you already have other Galeforcers. Aversa and Veronica are the next best if you use debuffing teams or super tank teams a lot. I do not see the point in investing in Sylgr with better nukes around. Selkie's refine is good, but the Refine is wasted on her since she is still going to struggle against tanks even with Flow Guard. None of them are bad, but none of them are necessary either.

[Diovani Bressan]

11 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

(since they can't negate Ylgr's Bonuses when in combat with a different unit)

The only way for someone that is not against Ylgr in combat to nullify her Hold effect would be being Bramimond or having Feud in the C Slot. We still don't have B Feud I believe, but the others still work against Ylgr if the user is against a foe of the same color as the Feud (G Feud user against a Green unit), right?

9 hours ago, Xenomata said:

Hm... that would theoretically make her pretty alright as a Save beacon, being able to debuff enemies with -6 to all stats if she manages to get as many buffs beforehand. She would be competing with Witchy Nowi (who targets Atk/Spd/Res), Kinshi Hinoka (targeting Atk/Spd/Def), and Ashnard (targeting Atk/Def), but unlike them she can potentially target every single stat. The issue, therefore, is getting every stat bonus on her... but a unit like Titania or Seth could do it if given all the correct Tactics skills, and Fae can just flatout do that.

...maybe I'm overthinking it though. She would be just fine taking Atk/Spd Menace and getting a Def bonus from elsewhere to get the Atk/Spd/Def -6 she ultimately wants.

Even though Ylgr can have more debuffs on foes, she still has the requirement of needing buffs on herself. Luckily, that's not hard to get. Someone like Azura can easily get +6 on all her stats, and others units like Elimine can help with that too. She can even run Disarm Trap to... well... disarm traps (expect Hex Traps).

Nowi, Hinoka and Ashnard, though, have the vantage of being fliers. Better mobility, can run Reins and others flier support skills (Guidance, Ground Orders). Depending on the team you have, these may be better picks. (if your Near and Far Save units do not use magic attacks, then Hinoka or Ashnard will do better than Ylgr since Ylgr's Res Debuffs may be useless and you can run their Atk/Def Rein in the fliers for extra debuffs)

[Ice Dragon]

10 minutes ago, XRay said:

Outside of that though, I do not really see her being relevant with that horrible positioning requirement. 

She already gets a minimum of +15/+15 as long as she starts the turn adjacent to an ally, and the Order's Sentence effect for a minimum of +12 Atk is effectively always going to be active if she's teleporting. And you can alternatively just bring an ally to her first due to her Air/Ground Orders effect.

Also, 2-square positioning is perfectly normal for any team using Harmonized Catria or Ash.

For comparison, with maximum Dragonflower investment,

• Veronica has +12/+6 (+6/+0 if both units have +6/+6 field buffs instead of just Veronica) offenses over a Harmonized Sonya running Luna.
• Veronica has +9/+6 (+3/+0) offenses over a Harmonized Sonya running Blazing Wind, but Sonya needs to either give up her Sacred Seal slot for Quickened Pulse or use up her Harmonized Skill in order to use Blazing Wind immediately, the latter of which prevents her from activating it again on the next round of combat.
• Veronica has +21/+3 (+15/-3) offenses over Duo Byleth.
• Veronica has +13/+0 (+7/-12) offenses over Duo Dagr, though Dagr lacks the ability to run Desperation for sustain.

 

2 minutes ago, Diovani Bressan said:

The only way for someone that is not against Ylgr in combat to nullify her Hold effect would be being Bramimond or having Feud in the C Slot. We still don't have B Feud I believe, but the others still work against Ylgr if the user is against a foe of the same color as the Feud (G Feud user against a Green unit), right?

Correct.

And Legendary Lyn also has Impenetrable Dark's effect on her weapon.

[XRay]

2 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

She already gets a minimum of +15/+15 as long as she starts the turn adjacent to an ally, and the Order's Sentence effect for a minimum of +12 Atk is effectively always going to be active if she's teleporting. And you can alternatively just bring an ally to her first due to her Air/Ground Orders effect.

Also, 2-square positioning is perfectly normal for any team using Harmonized Catria or Ash.

For comparison, with maximum Dragonflower investment,

• Veronica has +12/+6 (+6/+0 if both units have +6/+6 field buffs instead of just Veronica) offenses over a Harmonized Sonya running Luna.
• Veronica has +9/+6 (+3/+0) offenses over a Harmonized Sonya running Blazing Wind, but Sonya needs to either give up her Sacred Seal slot for Quickened Pulse or use up her Harmonized Skill in order to use Blazing Wind immediately, the latter of which prevents her from activating it again on the next round of combat.
• Veronica has +21/+3 (+15/-3) offenses over Duo Byleth.
• Veronica has +13/+0 (+7/-12) offenses over Duo Dagr, though Dagr lacks the ability to run Desperation for sustain.

Under player control for player phase teams, her Atk/Spd+9 is not anything awe inspiring, and her Blade tome effect is unreliable.

Catria: Azure Wing Pair can make a lot of units viable on defense, so it does not really elevate her above her competition. Same thing for Ash, although I do not really find Ash that useful outside of Summoner Duels.

Sonya: Dazzling Rabbits has far better mobility since she basically treats all her allies as if they are Ash, and if players run Gray Waves on the team, her Atk would not drop like a rock at maximum range. In Summoner Duels, she has precharged Luna/Blazing to massively increase her damage output, so if you are trading pieces with your opponent, it does not really matter if her second round of combat is bad since she is not going to have a second round.

She does have a large Atk lead over the other two, but if Atk is all you care about, Blade tomes can do that for you far more consistently.

[Ice Dragon]

8 minutes ago, XRay said:

Under player control for player phase teams, her Atk/Spd+9 is not anything awe inspiring, and her Blade tome effect is unreliable.

As someone who doesn't use dancers most of the time and therefore rarely, if ever, needs to run off into the middle of nowhere, it's extremely easy to remain within 2 spaces of an ally, especially when you are capable of teleporting to allies and allies are capable of teleporting to you. It's not difficult at all.

 

10 minutes ago, XRay said:

Same thing for Ash, although I do not really find Ash that useful outside of Summoner Duels.

Leapfrogging Save tanks forward is extremely powerful, and the team composition of Ash + 2 Save tanks + 1 attacker works well in a lot of game modes, including Aether Raids (which also gives you 2 support units on top).

 

14 minutes ago, XRay said:

In Summoner Duels, she has precharged Luna/Blazing to massively increase her damage output, so if you are trading pieces with your opponent, it does not really matter if her second round of combat is bad since she is not going to have a second round.

That's nice, but Summoner Duels is not the only game mode in this game.

 

14 minutes ago, XRay said:

She does have a large Atk lead over the other two, but if Atk is all you care about, Blade tomes can do that for you far more consistently.

Litrblade has not been consistent for as long as Lull skills have become better distributed, and ranged tanks often have other skills that nullify Bonuses. Lull skills are also increasingly seen in PvE content.

[XRay]

2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

As someone who doesn't use dancers most of the time and therefore rarely, if ever, needs to run off into the middle of nowhere, it's extremely easy to remain within 2 spaces of an ally, especially when you are capable of teleporting to allies and allies are capable of teleporting to you. It's not difficult at all.

There plenty of times when you need to move two spaces away from Dancers/Singers, and depending on the map, enemies could be on the opposite side of the map from you, and having close range positioning requirements just is not feasible for a nuke.

Using her outside of Save balls is going to require players putting in a lot more brain juice to work.

2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Leapfrogging Save tanks forward is extremely powerful, and the team composition of Ash + 2 Save tanks + 1 attacker works well in a lot of game modes, including Aether Raids (which also gives you 2 support units on top).

Elimine and Flayn can already provide most of that mobility with Ground Orders and Guidance, and the extra mobility from Ash is not necessary.

2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

That's nice, but Summoner Duels is not the only game mode in this game.

And in any other game mode, Sonya: Dazzling Rabbits and other nukes do not have to fumble around with positioning requirements and do what they need to do. In Summoner Duels, that is the only game mode where the opposition is not going to mindlessly rush you, you are not in danger from being surrounded from reinforcements, Dance/Sing is limited and nerfed, and you want to keep your units together to facilitate trading pieces.

[Ice Dragon]

2 hours ago, XRay said:

Using her outside of Save balls is going to require players putting in a lot more brain juice to work.

2 hours ago, XRay said:

And in any other game mode, Sonya: Dazzling Rabbits and other nukes do not have to fumble around with positioning requirements and do what they need to do. In Summoner Duels, that is the only game mode where the opposition is not going to mindlessly rush you, you are not in danger from being surrounded from reinforcements, Dance/Sing is limited and nerfed, and you want to keep your units together to facilitate trading pieces.

Oh, no. I have to use brain juice in my strategy game. The horror.

You say all of this as if keeping your units together enough is in any way difficult, especially when the unit being discussed literally allows your entire team to teleport.

Enemies mindlessly rushing you, reinforcements spawning around you, and having access to dancers without drawbacks should all make it easier to keep your army together, not harder.

 

2 hours ago, XRay said:

Elimine and Flayn can already provide most of that mobility with Ground Orders and Guidance, and the extra mobility from Ash is not necessary.

Ground Orders has worse positioning requirements due to the fact that it only applies to adjacent units at the beginning of the turn. Guidance is also extremely clunky to use when you need to use it to position more than one unit. Both of these options essentially force rigid positions on your units, which is far less adaptable than keeping a teleporting attacker within 2 spaces of an ally when they attack when the entire team is capable of teleporting.

[XRay]

2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Oh, no. I have to use brain juice in my strategy game. The horror.

You say all of this as if keeping your units together enough is in any way difficult, especially when the unit being discussed literally allows your entire team to teleport.

Enemies mindlessly rushing you, reinforcements spawning around you, and having access to dancers without drawbacks should all make it easier to keep your army together, not harder.

You can give your nukes Atk/Spd Unity if you really want to, but there is reason most players do not do so. Positioning requirements are a pain in the ass to use.

The whole team having limited teleportation is good, but it leaves Veronica: Spring Princess vulnerable. Player phase teams have Wings of Mercy Dancers/Singers for extraction and Save tank teams can jump in to handle enemy phase, but outside of those team compositions, she is exposed. You can use Reposition and Swap, but if the map has reinforcements from all sides, positioning Assists is not going to do much if enemies are going to flank the team from the other side.

2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Ground Orders has worse positioning requirements due to the fact that it only applies to adjacent units at the beginning of the turn. Guidance is also extremely clunky to use when you need to use it to position more than one unit. Both of these options essentially force rigid positions on your units, which is far less adaptable than keeping a teleporting attacker within 2 spaces of an ally when they attack when the entire team is capable of teleporting.

Ground Orders and Guidance are not as good as Ash for mobility, but they are sufficient for the purposes of a Save tank team.

[Ice Dragon]

6 hours ago, XRay said:

You can give your nukes Atk/Spd Unity if you really want to, but there is reason most players do not do so.

Yeah, because even if the positioning requirement didn't exist, the stats are shit and the distribution is shit.

Swift Sparrow 3 grants +1 Atk and +2 Spd over Atk/Spd Unity if you don't have Penalties. Penalties are extremely unreliable and go away after the first round of combat and is therefore completely incompatible with offensive dancer usage (using dancers in order to attack more targets instead of using dancers to retreat).

Swift Sparrow 3 is available from 17 different units, 4 of which are in the standard summoning pool and 3 of which have regular reruns in the Legendary/Mythic Heroes or Remix pools. Atk/Spd Unity is available from 2 units, 1 of which is in the standard summoning pool.

Swift Sparrow 3 has been available for 58 months. Atk/Spd Unity has been available for 8 months.

 

Unless you're in a game mode where you can expect to be hit by Penalties, there's literally no reason to ever use Atk/Spd Unity over something else, even on units that have proximity teleportation.

 

6 hours ago, XRay said:

Player phase teams have Wings of Mercy Dancers/Singers for extraction and Save tank teams can jump in to handle enemy phase, but outside of those team compositions, she is exposed.

I'm of the impression that those are the only team compositions, as far as you are concerned.

And she's not any more exposed than any other typical frail ranged attacker.

 

6 hours ago, XRay said:

Ground Orders and Guidance are not as good as Ash for mobility, but they are sufficient for the purposes of a Save tank team.

I've used Ground Orders on Flayn and Guidance on Eir for a long some time in Aether Raids. Both objectively suck for Save tanks.

Ground Orders on Flayn got tossed recently for Close/Distant Guard because I never used it when Ash was around, and it was too unreliable to use even when Ash was not around due to the fact that having one of your Save tanks able to teleport and not the other is functionally the same as having neither of them able to teleport. The only way to have them both able to teleport is to have them end the turn diagonal to each other (which results in a shitty diagonally shaped coverage area) or end the turn on opposite sides of the unit with Ground Orders (which results in an even worse coverage area of only the square the Ground Orders unit is on and the 4 squares adjacent to it).

Eir ran Guidance back when super tanks were still viable because you only needed one super tank. After the switch to Save tanks, Eir still ran Guidance, but I stopped actually using it because unless you move the Guidance user in between moving the two Save tanks, you can only use the same two shitty coverage areas that Ground Orders has access to.

In the tight confines of Aether Raids maps, you don't have the luxury to be restricted to the shitty Save coverage areas used with Ground Orders or the extra action and occupation of space needed to avoid the shitty Save coverage areas when using Guidance.

Edited April 8, 2022 by Ice Dragon

[XRay]

16 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Yeah, because even if the positioning requirement didn't exist, the stats are shit and the distribution is shit.

Swift Sparrow 3 grants +1 Atk and +2 Spd over Atk/Spd Unity if you don't have Penalties. Penalties are extremely unreliable and go away after the first round of combat and is therefore completely incompatible with offensive dancer usage (using dancers in order to attack more targets instead of using dancers to retreat).

Swift Sparrow 3 is available from 17 different units, 4 of which are in the standard summoning pool and 3 of which have regular reruns in the Legendary/Mythic Heroes or Remix pools. Atk/Spd Unity is available from 2 units, 1 of which is in the standard summoning pool.

Swift Sparrow 3 has been available for 58 months. Atk/Spd Unity has been available for 8 months.

 

Unless you're in a game mode where you can expect to be hit by Penalties, there's literally no reason to ever use Atk/Spd Unity over something else, even on units that have proximity teleportation.

If the positioning requirement did not exist, then it will actually be used by nukes more, and for the nukes that do have it by default, players would not have to feel like they need to replace it with something else. The stats might not be competitive, but if that is the fodder that players have, it will actually be used.

16 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

I'm of the impression that those are the only team compositions, as far as you are concerned.

And she's not any more exposed than any other typical frail ranged attacker.

Other nukes are just as exposed as her, but other nukes do not have to be chained to their team without taking a major hit to their performance.

16 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

I've used Ground Orders on Flayn and Guidance on Eir for a long some time in Aether Raids. Both objectively suck for Save tanks.

Ground Orders on Flayn got tossed recently for Close/Distant Guard because I never used it when Ash was around, and it was too unreliable to use even when Ash was not around due to the fact that having one of your Save tanks able to teleport and not the other is functionally the same as having neither of them able to teleport. The only way to have them both able to teleport is to have them end the turn diagonal to each other (which results in a shitty diagonally shaped coverage area) or end the turn on opposite sides of the unit with Ground Orders (which results in an even worse coverage area of only the square the Ground Orders unit is on and the 4 squares adjacent to it).

Eir ran Guidance back when super tanks were still viable because you only needed one super tank. After the switch to Save tanks, Eir still ran Guidance, but I stopped actually using it because unless you move the Guidance user in between moving the two Save tanks, you can only use the same two shitty coverage areas that Ground Orders has access to.

In the tight confines of Aether Raids maps, you don't have the luxury to be restricted to the shitty Save coverage areas used with Ground Orders or the extra action and occupation of space needed to avoid the shitty Save coverage areas when using Guidance.

My Light Season Save tank team got triple Flayns. It scores like shit so I rarely use it, but mobility is not an issue because they all got Ground Orders and/or Guidance.

For my Astra Season Save tank team, only two of my Elimines got mobility Sacred Seals, but even that was more than enough mobility.

[Ice Dragon]

9 minutes ago, XRay said:

If the positioning requirement did not exist, then it will actually be used by nukes more, and for the nukes that do have it by default, players would not have to feel like they need to replace it with something else. The stats might not be competitive, but if that is the fodder that players have, it will actually be used.

No, it wouldn't be used more. It's literally outclassed by Atk/Spd Solo 3 and is equivalent in strength to the easier-to-obtain Atk/Spd Catch 3 and the much-easier-to-obtain Atk/Spd Ideal 3.

Furthermore, "if that's the fodder that players have" is flatly not happening:

• Atk/Spd Unity is available from 2 units, of which only 1 of them is in the standard summoning pool.
• Swift Sparrow 3 is available from 17 units, of which 4 are in the standard summoning pool.
• Atk/Spd Solo 3 is available from 25 units, of which 12 are in the standard summoning pool and 1 is a 4-star Special Hero.
• Atk/Spd Catch 3 is available from 6 units, of which 1 is in the standard summoning pool and 1 is a 4-star Special Hero.
• Atk/Spd Ideal 3 is available from 3 units, of which 2 are in the standard summoning pool and 1 is a 4-star unit in the standard summoning pool.

Even if Atk/Spd Unity did not have a positioning condition, I would not ever recommend using it except on specific units in specific game modes, even if you had spare fodder. The skill is shit for pure player-phase use because there are skills that are simultaneously better and easier to get.

 

28 minutes ago, XRay said:

Other nukes are just as exposed as her, but other nukes do not have to be chained to their team without taking a major hit to their performance.

In other words, "I concede that my argument that she would be exposed to attack is invalid, but I'll deflect back to my original argument that she has a positioning requirement to pretend that I didn't lose any ground and hope that my opponent doesn't realize that this isn't a new argument."

 

33 minutes ago, XRay said:

My Light Season Save tank team got triple Flayns. It scores like shit so I rarely use it, but mobility is not an issue because they all got Ground Orders and/or Guidance.

My Light Save tank team has Ash and one Flayn, has no mobility issues, didn't need to give up multiple skill slots for Ground Orders or Guidance, and most importantly, doesn't score like shit.

 

36 minutes ago, XRay said:

For my Astra Season Save tank team, only two of my Elimines got mobility Sacred Seals, but even that was more than enough mobility.

My Astra Save tank team actually has no mobility on it at all, but that's because I consider one Elimine and one Flayn to be enough damage reduction to stop caring about mobility.

[XRay]

On 4/8/2022 at 8:42 AM, Ice Dragon said:

No, it wouldn't be used more. It's literally outclassed by Atk/Spd Solo 3 and is equivalent in strength to the easier-to-obtain Atk/Spd Catch 3 and the much-easier-to-obtain Atk/Spd Ideal 3.

Furthermore, "if that's the fodder that players have" is flatly not happening:

• Atk/Spd Unity is available from 2 units, of which only 1 of them is in the standard summoning pool.
• Swift Sparrow 3 is available from 17 units, of which 4 are in the standard summoning pool.
• Atk/Spd Solo 3 is available from 25 units, of which 12 are in the standard summoning pool and 1 is a 4-star Special Hero.
• Atk/Spd Catch 3 is available from 6 units, of which 1 is in the standard summoning pool and 1 is a 4-star Special Hero.
• Atk/Spd Ideal 3 is available from 3 units, of which 2 are in the standard summoning pool and 1 is a 4-star unit in the standard summoning pool.

Even if Atk/Spd Unity did not have a positioning condition, I would not ever recommend using it except on specific units in specific game modes, even if you had spare fodder. The skill is shit for pure player-phase use because there are skills that are simultaneously better and easier to get.

It would be used more, if it had no positioning requirements. Are players going to specifically pull for it? No. But players will use it if it is in their Barracks.

Positioning requirements suck. If Atk/Spd Solo 3 got the same distribution as Atk/Spd Ideal 3, even if it has Atk/Spd+1 advantage, I doubt it would be as popular as Ideal, even if its positioning requirements are much less restrictive than Unities.

On 4/8/2022 at 8:42 AM, Ice Dragon said:

My Astra Save tank team actually has no mobility on it at all, but that's because I consider one Elimine and one Flayn to be enough damage reduction to stop caring about mobility.

Yeah, my point was that Save tank teams do not need Ash's level of mobility. Ground Orders and Guidance is more than enough.

[Ice Dragon]

35 minutes ago, XRay said:

Positioning requirements suck. If Atk/Spd Solo 3 got the same distribution as Atk/Spd Ideal 3, even if it has Atk/Spd+1 advantage, I doubt it would be as popular as Ideal, even if its positioning requirements are much less restrictive than Unities.

You realize that while Atk/Spd Ideal 3 currently has better distribution than Atk/Spd Solo 3, Atk/Spd Solo 3 still has higher usage, right?

 

40 minutes ago, XRay said:

Yeah, my point was that Save tank teams do not need Ash's level of mobility. Ground Orders and Guidance is more than enough.

Which doesn't change the fact that Ground Orders and Guidance are still hot garbage for Save teams and are not worth the skill slots compared to alternative options.

If you're going to use mobility assists, you may as well use one that both doesn't use a skill slot and is flat out better.

[Rinco]

Just my 2 cents about mobility on save teams:

My light team has Ash just because she's a Mythic and she indeed helps positioning. My astra team doesn't have any mobility skills at all and it's still easy to play. I don't use any Flayns (1 Elimine on Astra) even tho my save tanks aren't +10. 

I'm consistently reaching T39 or barely there every week and finishing my seasons with half or more of my ladders.

It's completely unnecessary to have units dedicated to mobility on save teams, IMO (and I'd never lower my score crunching a bunch of also unnecessary Flayns on the team).