Super Smash Bros. Ultimate News and Discussion: A Simple and Clean Finish

[Anacybele]

1 hour ago, thecrimsonflash said:

while I will not tell you to get your hopes up too high as nothing is confirmed yet on that front, the black knight as a playable character has plenty going for him in smash bros.

first, off he would be fairly simple moveset wise, as an Ike echo he could have mostly the same moveset barring one or two specials, at most his up special could be a simple warp or he could have a warp based on abra where he warps people with him (which has all sorts of fun troll possibilities, I will call it burgersicide until further notice), and his neutral special could just use blade beam from cloud, maybe with the option of charging.

second, sakurai acknowledged his existence in smash 4 with a mii fighter costume, that means that this is a character which remains in sakurai's consciousness, this does mean something.

third, many are speculating a heroes vs villains theme, out of all the fire emblem villains the black knight is the most popular and has one of the more realizable movesets (fire emblem dragons are questionable at best) and even if there is no technical heroes vs villains theme, "I want more villains" is not an uncommon opinion for people to have and I imagine that could have helped any villains in the ballot.

fourth, there is the recent castle siege changes which may mean something, it is an oddly specific change given the changes were otherwise just intended to make the stage work with ultimate's art style.

fifth, he does have some presence in mods, whether or not sakurai looks at those or not, this could influence the ballot lightly in his favor.

and to conclude some may say that Ike still having his BK pallet swap hurts his chances, but simon still has a richter pallet swap, the reason why there is no chrom pallet for Ike is because it wouldn't go with ranger Ike, so there is no real pattern to this.

I would say that the black knight's odds are much higher than some may think (over 50%), so I don't think you can count him out, as far as speculation for bosses or assists go, I don't think BK has any gimmick which would be worth using in the case of an assist trophy, his moves wouldn't work as a boss due to them not being large enough.

as previously stated, don't think of this as an absolute confirmation, but his odds of being dlc skyocket with current trends.

Yeah, that all does make sense. I still won't get my hopes up real high, as that's kinda reserved for Dixie Kong right now, but yeah. Strange, all the characters I've wanted are or would likely be echo fighters. Daisy is an echo, BK would be one, and Dixie probably would be too.

[Interdimensional Observer]

13 minutes ago, The DanMan said:

"Too many humans"; can't see I've seen that categorical complaint much before. 

Although I'm not actually supporting it, if I were to find the grounds upon which this complaint is made, it would be in Smash from its onset not being purely human-dominated.

In the original 12, you have Mario and Luigi, who are human, but cartoony, Ness is much the same. Kirby, Pikachu, Yoshi, DK, and Jiggly are all not human at all. Link and Captain Falcon are the only "true" humans. Samus although human, she could be a robot given she is from head to toe in armor. Fox, well it honestly wouldn't make a difference if he was Fox McCloud, or James McCloud of F-Zero, but on the surface, he literally isn't human.

I think Glennstavos's biggest criticism would be the big trio of the DLC characters are all realistic humans- Cloud, Ryu, Bayonetta. When you look at the greater newcomers, you have only Duck Hunt, Mega Man, Pac Man, Greninja, and Bowser Jr. who aren't human at all. 

But even here, the argument has holes. For all the humans play oh so radically differently, Little Mac, Palutena, Robin, Shulk, and Rosalina & Luma are all nothing alike. The argument is purely cosmetic.

[Zangetsu]

19 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I'm admittedly not that versed in fighting games. I guess I shouldn't have said that then.

 

Note the opening of my remark- "but there too are only so many ways to move limbs!". That was referring to the movements we call "punches" and "kicks"- the weapons of the weaponless. It is not to be denied characters in Smash without weapons share attacks too; IIRC, Sheik and Sonic have the same dair, Mario and Falco the same nair.

I wasn't speaking of the sword issue originally with any venom, I don't loathe swords, I only brought it up finding a measure of merit in it, and repeating a common complaint without thinking on it seriously. However, if you read my first response to Jedi criticizing me bringing up the not-#FE TMS issue, you'll notice I did bend very much so to sword movesets in Smash being fairly distinctive from each other.

Sorry, my mistake

 

12 minutes ago, Folt said:

Meh. If there's too many sword users, there's too many martial arts users as well.

Right now, most franchises are well repped in terms of potential playable characters. I generally want only one or two characters for certain franchises.

I wonder how many people seen this image.

 

 

11 minutes ago, The DanMan said:

"Too many humans"; can't see I've seen that categorical complaint much before. 

........

 

I swear people are just finding all sorts of new things to complain about this series.

[Florete]

7 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

Indie showcase next week. There goes my theory of them doing that next month in a general nintendo direct. Guess we can put away our smash speculation typing gloves. Unless of course you're hounding for Travis Touchdown or Sans to join Smash.

Obviously we're getting Shantae.

8 minutes ago, Zangetsu said:

I wonder how many people seen this image.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

An error on that: Pit and Dark Pit use swords.

[DisobeyedCargo]

5 minutes ago, Florete said:

An error on that: Pit and Dark Pit use swords.

Their weapons bows that can split into dual swords so really it could go either way

 

6 minutes ago, Florete said:

Obviously we're getting Shantae.

14 minutes ago, Zangetsu said:

I could die happy if Shantae got in the game 

[Interdimensional Observer]

6 minutes ago, Florete said:

Obviously we're getting Shantae.

Pirate's Curse Shantae please! Albeit I've only played Risky's Revenge and Pirate's Curse, but her magic moveset in RR wasn't as cool as the Pirate Gear. Yet I'd expect her magical half-genie dance-shifting self to be the core of the moveset. Elephant should be easy to integrate, Mermaid and Monkey I have a harder time visualizing.

 

3 minutes ago, DisobeyedCargo said:

Their weapons bows that can split into dual swords so really it could go either way

 

Are they really even swords when we consider how short they are? Would calling them daggers be better? Is there a real difference here??

[DisobeyedCargo]

16 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Are they really even swords when we consider how short they are? Would calling them daggers be better? Is there a real difference here??

I’m not entirely sure 

inb4 we get staff weilding pit

[Interdimensional Observer]

3 minutes ago, DisobeyedCargo said:

inb4 we get staff weilding pit

Cannons are the forgotten weapon type.

[NoirCore]

8 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

Indie showcase next week. There goes my theory of them doing that next month in a general nintendo direct. Guess we can put away our smash speculation typing gloves. Unless of course you're hounding for Travis Touchdown or Sans to join Smash.

Wait, didn't we just get one? At least, the Nintendo UK YouTube channel had one. For whatever reason, the US YT channel didn't have it, and I only knew of it thanks to Nintendo Life.

[Zangetsu]

1 hour ago, Florete said:

An error on that: Pit and Dark Pit use swords.

& Charizard is in the brawler when he should in the same category as Mario. I guess you could say the same thing about Dr. Mario

 

1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Are they really even swords when we consider how short they are? Would calling them daggers be better? Is there a real difference here??

Eh, they have the same function

[Jave]

3 hours ago, DisobeyedCargo said:

I could die happy if Shantae got in the game 

Shantae is like, my absolutely most wanted character. If she gets in, any additional newcomers will feel like a bonus (except for maybe Micaiah, but I won't delude myself into thinking she's anything more than a pipe dream).

Shantae has been discussed a lot lately though. Over at Smashboards, her support thread skyrocketed in views ever since the Shovel Knight AT was shown.

[Lord_Brand]

6 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Pirate's Curse Shantae please! Albeit I've only played Risky's Revenge and Pirate's Curse, but her magic moveset in RR wasn't as cool as the Pirate Gear. Yet I'd expect her magical half-genie dance-shifting self to be the core of the moveset. Elephant should be easy to integrate, Mermaid and Monkey I have a harder time visualizing.

To keep it simple, I would probably limit it to Monkey and Elephant. Both forms have a simplified moveset compared to Shantae herself. The Monkey is fast and lightweight, can climb walls, and attacks using Monkey Bullet. Elephant is heavy and slow, harder to flinch, and attacks with Elephant Tackle and Elephant Stomp. Though, if they could add Mermaid, Harpy, and maybe Spider as well, that'd be cool. They'd just have to keep the movesets simple; they wouldn't likely pack six full movesets into one slot.

[The DanMan]

6 hours ago, Jave said:

Shantae is like, my absolutely most wanted character. If she gets in, any additional newcomers will feel like a bonus (except for maybe Micaiah, but I won't delude myself into thinking she's anything more than a pipe dream).

Shantae has been discussed a lot lately though. Over at Smashboards, her support thread skyrocketed in views ever since the Shovel Knight AT was shown.

Which is painfully ironic, as logically if the bigger character is confirmed as an AT the less popular has no chance higher than that.

[Jedi]

Yeah as much as I like Shantae I don’t see her having any chance in hell after Shovel Knight is an AT unless Sakurai decided her old GBC history is enough. Which I severely doubt.

[Fabulously Olivier]

14 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Yeah as much as I like Shantae I don’t see her having any chance in hell after Shovel Knight is an AT unless Sakurai decided her old GBC history is enough. Which I severely doubt.

History is a huge factor though. I mean, G&W, Rob, and Ice Climbers haven't been relevant in decades outside of Smash, and weren't relevant at the time of being added to Smash. 

(Shit, some might say that Star Fox and F-Zero are less currently relevant than Shantae these days). 

Edited August 24, 2018 by Etheus

[Jave]

2 hours ago, The DanMan said:

Which is painfully ironic, as logically if the bigger character is confirmed as an AT the less popular has no chance higher than that.

In fairness, we don’t even know which character is the most popular. In the polls, both of them always seem to go toe to toe, and Shantae does seem to have a larger fandom in Japan. 

It’s a longshot, but I really wouldn’t rule her out. She’s the most obvious pick if they decide to add an indie character. 

[The DanMan]

58 minutes ago, Etheus said:

History is a huge factor though. I mean, G&W, Rob, and Ice Climbers haven't been relevant in decades outside of Smash, and weren't relevant at the time of being added to Smash. 

(Shit, some might say that Star Fox and F-Zero are less currently relevant than Shantae these days). 

They were oddball retro characters; of Smash's 3rd parties, none of them are niche and they are all from large, currently/recently active franchises (only exception being Bayonetta, who we now know was purely due to marketing/getting a cool character out there rather, with the Ballot only now really being used for Ultimate and explicitly K. Rool).

Also, keep in mind: we got Cloud. "History with Nintendo" doesn't mean a thing if there's a related more popular choice-- popularity/overall legacy is a far bigger deciding factor than "oh this character originated from a 20 year-old GBC game that bombed and only recently has had games with actual physical releases". If the devs were shopping around for an indie character, Shovel Knight would've been the most obvious choice yet he's just an AT (or how we got Simon and Snake back with Bomberman stuck in the AT position).

When you get down to it, an indie character is really just a type of 3rd party character with less notability/popularity-- the fact Shovel Knight got in as an AT is a testament to him and his game.

Captain Falcon is around purely because of the grandfather clause, and Star Fox definitely is (and has been) in limbo-- but the standards for 3rd party characters in general just seem to be higher than those for 1st party characters (with, again, Bayonetta as the exception). We'll need to have the 3rd party selection get blown wide open before obscurer choices have any serious chances; as-is, I'd say the chances are more existent for freaking Master Chief in DLC (all you need is Banjo to pave the way, who Microsoft has been very open about) than they are for characters whose defining classification is due to their lack of a publisher.

[Jedi]

1 hour ago, Etheus said:

History is a huge factor though. I mean, G&W, Rob, and Ice Climbers haven't been relevant in decades outside of Smash, and weren't relevant at the time of being added to Smash. 

(Shit, some might say that Star Fox and F-Zero are less currently relevant than Shantae these days). 

I wouldn’t call Shantaes history relevant to Nintendo itself though. Or gaming at large.

[Florete]

3 hours ago, The DanMan said:

Which is painfully ironic, as logically if the bigger character is confirmed as an AT the less popular has no chance higher than that.

 

2 hours ago, Jedi said:

Yeah as much as I like Shantae I don’t see her having any chance in hell after Shovel Knight is an AT unless Sakurai decided her old GBC history is enough. Which I severely doubt.

I always question why people ever thought Shovel Knight had the better chance. What advantage did he ever have over her? Maybe popularity. Maybe. But just that.

• History with Nintendo? Easily Shantae. Her first three games were originally Nintendo exclusives (and her first one still is) and her fourth released simultaneously on everything. It took a while for Shovel Knight to even get on Nintendo platforms.
• Relevance to gaming history? Easily Shantae again. Shantae is an indie icon who's been around since 2002 and has four games. Shovel Knight has one that was released a few years ago. It was big, yes, but it was just one.
• Moveset potential? Both have this realistically, so I'm not going to call a winner on it.
• Popularity in Japan? Shantae. It took a while for either to get there, but Shovel Knight didn't really make any waves over there. Shantae, on the other hand, was quite popular.

WayForward as a company has a more impressive résumé overall than Yacht Club, so Sakurai might be more willing to work with them. You could also make the argument that Shantae's brighter, more colorful world would make including her and a stage for her more appealing. Shantae herself is also just much more expressive as a character, especially considering Shovel Knight's face is always covered.

[King Marth 64]

1 hour ago, Jedi said:

I wouldn’t call Shantaes history relevant to Nintendo itself though. Or gaming at large.

She does have 4 games that are on Nintendo platforms plus made a crossover appearance in Blaster Master Zero along with Shovel Knight. I think Shovel Knight was added as an Assist Trophy because only had one game (if you count Specter of Torment as two since they bundled together in Treasure Trove) and he was kinda late to be added as playable since his game in Japan was released in 2016 which the official Fighter Ballot ended around October 3rd, 2015 and Shantae has 4 games, I'm pretty sure Sakurai will possibly put Shantae as a fighter since Sakurai does look at requests from overseas fans since Ridley, King K. Rool, Dark Samus, and Simon Belmont were requested by Overseas Fans.

Edited August 24, 2018 by King Marth 64

[Jedi]

39 minutes ago, Florete said:

 

I always question why people ever thought Shovel Knight had the better chance. What advantage did he ever have over her? Maybe popularity. Maybe. But just that.

• History with Nintendo? Easily Shantae. Her first three games were originally Nintendo exclusives (and her first one still is) and her fourth released simultaneously on everything. It took a while for Shovel Knight to even get on Nintendo platforms.
• Relevance to gaming history? Easily Shantae again. Shantae is an indie icon who's been around since 2002 and has four games. Shovel Knight has one that was released a few years ago. It was big, yes, but it was just one.
• Moveset potential? Both have this realistically, so I'm not going to call a winner on it.
• Popularity in Japan? Shantae. It took a while for either to get there, but Shovel Knight didn't really make any waves over there. Shantae, on the other hand, was quite popular.

WayForward as a company has a more impressive résumé overall than Yacht Club, so Sakurai might be more willing to work with them. You could also make the argument that Shantae's brighter, more colorful world would make including her and a stage for her more appealing. Shantae herself is also just much more expressive as a character, especially considering Shovel Knight's face is always covered.

Unfortunately (and to fix my earlier comment) 3rd parties likely have way stricter rules and I don’t see Shantae beating out some other titans of other companies who paved the way for others in the world of gaming.

Shovel Knight has been leading the indie charge that Quote back in Cave Story started ages ago, and is becoming one of the most recognizable characters in gaming.

Shantae is getting up there but she still has hurtles.

[Florete]

1 minute ago, Jedi said:

Unfortunately (and to fix my earlier comment) 3rd parties likely have way stricter rules and I don’t see Shantae beating out some other titans of other companies who paved the way for others in the world of gaming.

Shovel Knight has been leading the indie charge that Quote back in Cave Story started ages ago, and is becoming one of the most recognizable characters in gaming.

Shantae is getting up there but she still has hurtles.

Other 3rd parties? Sure. Shovel Knight? No.

[Lau]

Shantae is an interesting choice. Not one I'd personally pick, as I haven't played her games and I'm not too into the Nindies anyways, but I certainly wouldn't complain.

My top three picks are (if it's worth anything):

1) Bandana Dee - Spear fighter, rounds out the main quartet of the Kirby characters, is super cute, and I've been supporting him since Smash 4.

2)  Issac - Interesting move set potential, would represent a series that isn't in Smash yet (do we know why his AT was cut after Brawl?) and just generally has an endearing fanbase, from what I've seen.

3) Skull Kid - There's a fair amount of evidence for him this time around, I enjoyed his role in Majora's Mask, and has a lot of potential for a unique move set.

[The DanMan]

16 minutes ago, Florete said:

Other 3rd parties? Sure. Shovel Knight? No.

Shovel Knight's one game has received multiple expansions and sold over 2 million; as far as I can tell, it's downright impossible to find any sort of quantifiable data for Shantae.

Little Mac and Dark Samus show that not being popular in Japan isn't a lockout from Smash, and both tangential and quantifiable data points to Shovel Knight being more popular.

And as I said above, "history with Nintendo" isn't a requirement at all (officially just a "courtesy", even)-- Cloud and Bayonetta show that much.

At this point, nothing more can be said on the matter-- if she gets in, I'll gladly eat my words. If she doesn't, I told you so. That's all it boils down to, really.

 

Edited August 24, 2018 by The DanMan

[Jave]

3 minutes ago, The DanMan said:

At this point, nothing more can be said on the matter-- if she gets in, I'll gladly eat my words. If she doesn't, I told you so. That's all it boils down to, really.

 

Please don’t do this. This is not supposed to be a contest and makes the overall discussion really unpleasant.