Power creep discussion

[Junkhead]

27 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

It's just really lazy and inexcusable.  Let's see what is harder to do, create pretty much the same unit just with more stats, or actually create something that isn't 'better' but different?  Then again the community is partly to blame.  I remember when Gunnthra was released, all the disappointment of no BST power creep despite being one of the most creative units in the game, chilling seal at that time was completely unique, and debuff blade tome was also super cool.  Guess that wasn't enough, they should have just given her 160 BST and everyone would be happy.  Or when Male Grima came out and many people were actually wishing he has 180BST.  I mean seriously, what is wrong with people. 

Yeah, Gunnthrá was a fun and creative character. Still yet to use her...

Not sure what you mean on Grima. I think he has Top 5 highest BST in the game, and people recieved him really well.

 

Funny for me, Libra seems really average in stats. Compare him to the others, and he got the short end of the stick (not that I care, I like him either way).

Edited July 25, 2018 by Junkhead

[Mackc2]

41 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

It's just really lazy and inexcusable.  Let's see what is harder to do, create pretty much the same unit just with more stats, or actually create something that isn't 'better' but different?  Then again the community is partly to blame.  I remember when Gunnthra was released, all the disappointment of no BST power creep despite being one of the most creative units in the game, chilling seal at that time was completely unique, and debuff blade tome was also super cool.  Guess that wasn't enough, they should have just given her 160 BST and everyone would be happy.  Or when Male Grima came out and many people were actually wishing he has 180BST.  I mean seriously, what is wrong with people.  

 

People are stupid and want overpowered toys to play with, without realising that everyone else gets it too so they are going to have to fight those overpowered toys when they inevitably don't get them because gatcha 

[Ice Dragon]

3 hours ago, Lewyn said:

I am going to now lay out the worse cases of power creep in the game's history, not in any particular order.

I'm sure there are many more, like Maribelle over Elise like has been discussed.

Most of those aren't power creep. Just being better than an existing option isn't power creep if there's still no reason to use the new option.

Oscar, despite being almost strictly better than Abel, was not power creep because Peri exists and is marginally stronger than him. Dark Takumi, despite being strictly better than Clarisse, was not power creep because both of them were so far below average, it wouldn't have mattered if they existed or not outside of playing favorites.

And then there's Legendary Hector who is still a side grade of regular Hector because regular Hector can use Berserk Armads and Legendary Hector cannot.

 

If you're going to lay out the "worst" cases of power creep in the game's history, you're looking in the wrong places, unless you mean "worst" as in frivolities that don't matter in the grand scheme of things. The absolute largest instances of power creep in the game with no regard to Arena scoring are (approximately in order, kind of muddier at the bottom):

• The implementation of Skill Inheritance
  • Everyone gets access to Close Counter and Distant Counter.
  • Everyone gets access to Hone Atk and Hone Spd.
  • Everyone gets access to Reposition.
  • Bow users get access to Brave Bow.
  • Armors get access to Killer weapon + Swap + Bonfire + Distant Counter + Quick Riposte + Ward Armor.
  • Cavalry get access to Hone Cavalry.
  • Cavalry tome users get access to Litrblade.
  • Fliers get access to Hone Fliers.
  • etc.
• Reinhardt mk.1
• Bold Fighter
• The implementation of 5-star staves
• The implementation of the Weapon Refinery
  • Dragons get access to refined Lightning Breath.
  • Staff users get access to Dazzling Staff + Wrathful Staff.
• Brave Lyn
• Supports
• Xander, Camus (for free-to-players)
• Blessings
• Berserk Armads
• Other individual unit or skill additions

And except for the sheer dominance of cavalry after Skill Inheritance, I don't think anyone would argue that the implementation of Skill Inheritance was a bad thing. And I don't hear anyone complaining about Xander or Camus's existence.

And really, the "worst" case of power creep in this game's history was giving cavalry access to Litrblade and Hone Cavalry.

Edited July 25, 2018 by Ice Dragon

[Junkhead]

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

Most of those aren't power creep. Just being better than an existing option isn't power creep if there's still no reason to use the new option.

Tell that to Lon'qu and then look at Karla... (ಥ⌣ಥ)

[Ice Dragon]

3 minutes ago, Junkhead said:

Tell that to Lon'qu and then look at Karla... (ಥ⌣ಥ)

I will. Being made obsolete (especially when you were already obsolete) is not the same as power creep.

I mean, Lon'qu has been obsolete since the implementation of Skill Inheritance (when Hana became the premier player-phase infantry sword user), if not earlier. And Athena sealed his coffin. Lon'qu wasn't power crept by Karla, nor was he even made obsolete by Karla.

 

Note that I'm using "obsolete" from a min-max standpoint and in the standard Arena (where you only get 4 units), not Arena Assault (where having weaker versions for the same role is still relevant, at least sometimes) or PvE (where you can counter-pick with no restrictions).

[XRay]

13 hours ago, DehNutCase said:

Braves don't kill horses? In what world does Firesweep kill anything that brave weapons don't? At best, Firesweep is 2x hits from a high atk/spd unit. At worst, Braves is 2x hits from a high atk unit. At best, braves are 4x hits from a high atk/high spd unit.

Braves kill ponies, but it does not stop ponies from rushing you. Firesweep can do what Braves do and annihilate ranged ponies in one round of combat.

13 hours ago, DehNutCase said:

Dead people don't counter attack.

Not everyone dies, and that is a huge problem when they can counter attack, so Braves are not the same as Firesweep. Firesweep is the safest way to shutdown any and all Enemy Phase units. It does not matter how they are built, they will die to Firesweep within two or three rounds of combat, four max if they are built to delay the inevitable.

13 hours ago, DehNutCase said:

Reinhardt might to green dragons

Reinhardt cannot kill certain Nowis, and neither can my BH!Lyn when she ran Brave Bow.

13 hours ago, DehNutCase said:

The trick is that they traded individual unit coverage for team type coverage. Each of them, alone, had glaring holes in unit coverage, but all of them covered all teams at a reasonable level.

I ran Reinhardt and Olivia thinking they can cover everyone that BH!Lyn could not, and none of them covered Nowi adequately. I even tried Watersweep Reinhardt since mine is -HP instead of -Spd.

13 hours ago, DehNutCase said:

The biggest problem with armor teams is that, for an armor to be threatening

Armor teams are threatening when they can sit on Fort tiles with stacks of Ward Armors and unleash an Iceberg or Bonfire in your face. Braves cannot kill them reliably.

14 hours ago, DehNutCase said:

It's just that I demand my team to be able to cover every single possible team, not just the 'meta' teams.

I have the same expectations for my team. If Reinhardt and BH!Lyn can cover every team and every Enemy Phase unit with just Braves, I would not have the need to switch BH!Lyn over to Firesweep.

[Zangetsu]

So as long 37 doesn't become the norm for neutral IV's

[Ae†her]

To Powercreep in Feh you would have to make a unit that not only out performs every other unit of the same color, but also takes as much of the cast out as possible more than any other unit currently because the weapon triangle and weapons that grants effectiveness means there's going to be a counter for every new unit that comes out so it's hard to be completely invincible as well as being able to take out the entire cast.

I'd say the most power creep thing we've had were the Bold Fighter and Vengeful Fighter skills for armors. They give way too much viability allowing armors to make free quads, make follow-ups and get cooldown charges automatically. It's a little bit too much luxury to try and make up for their lack of movement, especially considering when armors already have access to breaths and get a BST boost anyways.

[DehNutCase]

7 hours ago, XRay said:

Braves kill ponies, but it does not stop ponies from rushing you. Firesweep can do what Braves do and annihilate ranged ponies in one round of combat.

Firesweep can sometimes do what braves do, yes, and ORKO occasionally. But braves have a far easier time. The point isn't that braves crush high mobility teams---they don't, not their job. The point is that even vs. high mobility teams they'll perform adequately---braves are far more reliable at ORKOs than Firesweeps, meaning they're better if you need to one turn sweep or have limited space, and therefore number of turns, to hit and run.

Firesweep needs to pass a Spd check and a Atk check to ORKO, whereas braves usually only need to pass one or the other---if you're high speed then a high Atk brave would probably two shot you, if you're high bulk then a high Atk, high Spd brave would usually get to double. Firesweeps are worse at ORKOs than Silver Weapons, ignoring the anti-counter, and no one's bringing up Silvers as a good offensive weapon.

7 hours ago, XRay said:

Not everyone dies, and that is a huge problem when they can counter attack, so Braves are not the same as Firesweep. Firesweep is the safest way to shutdown any and all Enemy Phase units. It does not matter how they are built, they will die to Firesweep within two or three rounds of combat, four max if they are built to delay the inevitable.

Firesweep requires space to maneuver, not all maps give you that. What brave loses in the ability to safely chip it gains in requiring less space to operate.

Further---Camus and Xander do not get easily shut down by Firesweeps, because they're very good at rush forward and taking map space. And, similarly, other DC horses don't, either. Camus, Siegbert, Horse!Cordelia, Sigurd, etc. all have the stats to be moderately threatening even on offense, you just don't see them past a certain scoring range due to lack or merges on Camus and Xander and horse's natural scoring ability---and probably a distaste for giving DC to horses.

 

Further---everyone does die given enough team-wide coverage and buff capability. Braves scale the best or second best (-blade) with buffs, meaning they get better relative to other weapon types the more buffs you can reliably give. Hone Type or Atk Tactic is standard, Goad or Drive Atk effects are moderately difficult and rare---but possible if you need the coverage---and Ally Assist should be on every arena pair, and, while difficult to use to its full effectiveness vs. all teams, is very reasonable versus the low mobility teams that require the most stats.

This is particularly noticeable if you run Savage Blow---I have one on Cordelia because she's the Galeforce Sweeper of the team---since what units do survive usually do it by inches rather than yards.

 

That said, I guess it might be a playstyle thing. My teams always have high buffing abilities, if your buffs are less strong or less reliable I suppose braves might lose enough stats so that they aren't as reliable as they are for me.

7 hours ago, XRay said:

Reinhardt cannot kill certain Nowis, and neither can my BH!Lyn when she ran Brave Bow.

That's why I have Cordelia---even though she runs Galeforce. The point isn't so that everyone one has as high coverage as possible, the point is so that, between everyone on the team, all teams are covered. (Technically my arena binge team had Flying!Azura, who destroys Nowis, but either Cordelia was supposed to be swapped for Elincia or Azura swapped with Flying!Olivia.)

Cordelia actually matches up very well versus dragons, because, being melee, she can just fight them on enemy phase once you got the free wins* taken care of. Her combat is exactly as good either way, but the dragon's combat takes a nose-dive. She won't kill most of the time, but definitely bring Nowi down to OHKO range. (A Vantage QR Nowi would have to be face-tanked by Reinhardt to finish, unless you have a Hardy Bearing or Firesweeper---but you only get one of those a team thanks to only being 1 QR seal.)

*The people you can kill for free. If you can't do that to anyone you have to AI manipulate to split the team. This is a bit harder than vs. armors, but not by much. Certain maps you can't split, like the mountain pass + with two L shaped fort tiles, but you can bait on fort tiles pretty easily on those.

 

Basically---no one on my team has what you might consider 'good' unit coverage like a pure offensive only unit like full buffed -blade with stat A-slot or Ayra or whatever fully specced to kill as many people in one round as possible. But they have very good team coverage in the sense that there's no team comp that counters someone on my team without being hard countered by someone else on my team. And, vs most teams, all my members contribute at a 8/10 or 9/10 level.

7 hours ago, XRay said:

I ran Reinhardt and Olivia thinking they can cover everyone that BH!Lyn could not, and none of them covered Nowi adequately. I even tried Watersweep Reinhardt since mine is -HP instead of -Spd.

Yeah...Rein and B!Lyn cover very similar units, particularly if they're both using brave weapons. -Blade Rein has different coverage from normal Rein, though, especially with a CC set. If he grabs enough speed to avoid the double I'm pretty sure a Vantage QR set ORKOs Nowi on defense----but your team has to be very good at buffing for CC Rein to be good. It has a very high support requirement.

-Blade also changes the units he kills on offense---he still has around the same kill numbers, I think, but his spread shifted from better vs. low res, high hp units to better vs. units with mediocre combined hp + res.

 

I get away with Brave Weapons on both Rein and Lyn because the 'problem units' for that pair are solved by my Flier + Dancer duo. Cordelia runs Savage blow to bring the barely not there Nowis etc. into range, and the Dancer usually runs a specialized set to cover any holes my offense core can't take care of.

Mind, this is a 4 unit arena team, meaning it's basically as optimal as it gets. When I bring in a bonus unit I have to sacrifice a bit of reliability---although the bonus unit stat boosts means that it's only a very slight amount.

7 hours ago, XRay said:

Armor teams are threatening when they can sit on Fort tiles with stacks of Ward Armors and unleash an Iceberg or Bonfire in your face. Braves cannot kill them reliably.

Where are armor teams getting ward armor stacks?

You separate armor teams for free with AI manipulation. I only fight into ward armor stacks if Cordelia needed to Savage Blow someone or I'm feeling lazy.

 

I pretty much ignored AI manipulation for my argument with Ice Dragon---since it was a unit rating discussion, meaning I wanted to keep the skill floor fairly low, anyone good enough to have high AI manipulation skills probably doesn't need much help rating units---and I mentioned Firesweeps there, because they're the option that hard counters that particular issue, but brave users I consider good (Rein, Lyn, etc) all have high mobility to AI manipulate.

7 hours ago, XRay said:

I have the same expectations for my team. If Reinhardt and BH!Lyn can cover every team and every Enemy Phase unit with just Braves, I would not have the need to switch BH!Lyn over to Firesweep.

Hmm...

Honestly, after talking a bit, I think we just build different types of teams. My Braves operate well thanks to the the exceedingly high amount of buffs my teams tend to provide (8/8/9/8 is standard on demand---Ally Assist, Hone Type, Earth Dance, Fort Res, Hagoita), so if your buffs are less than that I can definitely see Braves falling off, since they scale very well with high stats. Especially since I also run Savage Blow on Cordelia, meaning that's a -7 or -14 hp for a troublesome target.

The full buff suite doesn't come out very often, of course, but the teams that I need every buff against never have the mobility to punish me for the positioning requirements.

 

Note: Rein and Lyn also don't cover every type of team for me. They're just very good versus most teams and, the few teams that do well against them get checked by my other arena duo.

Edit: My problem with firesweep is that a team that does well vs. firesweep could very well run me down and force me to lose a unit, whereas a team that does well vs. braves just means I take an extra few turns to AI manipulate and take combats a bit more carefully. You can definitely cover Firesweep's weakness to being run down by running a dazzle Gravity or whatever---but at that point, why not just run the dazzle gravity to begin with and skip the firesweep?

The closest to full team coverage in a single pair would be -blade CC Spring!Camilla and Raven TA Flying!Ninan, but even that pair would have issues versus certain team comps---ultra-strong bows or Dull Ranged users, whether in B-slot or Weapon slot.

Edited July 25, 2018 by DehNutCase

[XRay]

1 hour ago, DehNutCase said:

The point is that even vs. high mobility teams they'll perform adequately---braves are far more reliable at ORKOs than Firesweeps, meaning they're better if you need to one turn sweep or have limited space, and therefore number of turns, to hit and run.

Firesweep are just as adequate at taking out ranged ponies. Ranged ponies are not that durable. 

Everyone else is not as threatening with their low offenesive reach, and they can be killed off in one or two rounds of combat.

1 hour ago, DehNutCase said:

the anti-counter

That is the defining feature of Firesweep Weapons and they are a necessity for a Player Phase team to be able to tackle any kind of enemy, especially trollish defense teams.

1 hour ago, DehNutCase said:

Mind, this is a 4 unit arena team, meaning it's basically as optimal as it gets. When I bring in a bonus unit I have to sacrifice a bit of reliability---although the bonus unit stat boosts means that it's only a very slight amount.

I build Arena teams around a 3 member core. I have no reason to build a 4 member team if I cannot even use the fourth member most of the time.

1 hour ago, DehNutCase said:

Where are armor teams getting ward armor stacks?

Some maps do not allow you to split the enemies because the map layout just funnels them through one point in the middle, and sometimes the middle have forts.

1 hour ago, DehNutCase said:

Hmm...

Honestly, after talking a bit, I think we just build different types of teams. My Braves operate well thanks to the the exceedingly high amount of buffs my teams tend to provide (8/8/9/8 is standard on demand---Ally Assist, Hone Type, Earth Dance, Fort Res, Hagoita), so if your buffs are less than that I can definitely see Braves falling off, since they scale very well with high stats. Especially since I also run Savage Blow on Cordelia, meaning that's a -7 or -14 hp for a troublesome target.

The closest to full team coverage in a single pair would be -blade CC Spring!Camilla and Raven TA Flying!Ninan, but even that pair would have issues versus certain team comps---ultra-strong bows or Dull Ranged users, whether in B-slot or Weapon slot.

I prefer Player Phase teams that prioritizes mobility and positioning flexibility, and to my knowledge and experience, only Firesweep nukes can abuse the Dance/Sing-Reposition combo to its maximum potential since no Enemy Phase unit can counter that.

Third and fourth unite do not even matter, but I prefer a secondary nuke as my third unit to speed things up. I prefer slow Brave nukes since they require no set up outside of an Atk buff. Fourth unit is just a Bonus unit.

If I want to low-man my team, my go to option would be the Firesweeper-Dancer/Singer combo instead. There is like nothing out there that can counter it outside of Rival Domains and Grand Conquest where numerical superiority can overwhelm you.

[DehNutCase]

44 minutes ago, XRay said:

I build Arena teams around a 3 member core. I have no reason to build a 4 member team if I cannot even use the fourth member most of the time.

I build around arena pairs---Rein & Lyn are one pair, obviously, and Cordelia & Azura is the other pair, for my lazyass binge run team.

Usually, if I have to include a bonus unit, I build a pair with that bonus unit with one of my other units. I have a wide enough roster that one of my pairs and a pair I built up specifically for one season would have more or less perfect coverage.

44 minutes ago, XRay said:

Some maps do not allow you to split the enemies because the map layout just funnels them through one point in the middle, and sometimes the middle have forts.

That's heavily team dependent. A combined arms team with fliers can always split the enemy team---the prime example is probably the 'mountain pass' with 2 L shaped fort spreads---you know, 3 tiles, 1 tile with a forest on it.

I just have my fliers fly over the mountains, and some will chase my fliers, some my horses. Even in the worst case I can just air-lift my horses over.

 

If horse dancers existed, I'd have to test CC Vantage builds to see if their extra coverage can let pure horse teams ignore the fact that they can't always AI manipulate.

44 minutes ago, XRay said:

Firesweep are just as adequate at taking out ranged ponies. Ranged ponies are not that durable. 

Everyone else is not as threatening with their low offenesive reach, and they can be killed off in one or two rounds of combat.

That is the defining feature of Firesweep Weapons and they are a necessity for a Player Phase team to be able to tackle any kind of enemy, especially trollish defense teams.

That's probably right---how do you deal with melee horse teams that just run at you until they're all dead, though? Those are firesweeps weakest matchup, for me, since a firesweep user would have to rely on the rest of the team to stall for time.

Edited July 25, 2018 by DehNutCase

[Junkhead]

10 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

I will. Being made obsolete (especially when you were already obsolete) is not the same as power creep.

I mean, Lon'qu has been obsolete since the implementation of Skill Inheritance (when Hana became the premier player-phase infantry sword user), if not earlier. And Athena sealed his coffin. Lon'qu wasn't power crept by Karla, nor was he even made obsolete by Karla.

I'm just using the most extreme example at the top of my head. Sure, Hana and Athena are a thing, but at least Lon'qu had some extra Spd points over them. He can't say that next to Karla, Mia, and maybe even Ayra (since her Prf already brings +3 Spd to the table).

They should just give him Regnal Astra at this point.

[Ice Dragon]

51 minutes ago, Junkhead said:

I'm just using the most extreme example at the top of my head. Sure, Hana and Athena are a thing, but at least Lon'qu had some extra Spd points over them. He can't say that next to Karla, Mia, and maybe even Ayra (since her Prf already brings +3 Spd to the table).

They should just give him Regnal Astra at this point.

His 1-point Spd lead over Athena is pretty negligible considering his problem was his noodle arm, being 3 points of Atk behind her.

Ayra is slower than Lon'qu because even if Ayra's Blade comes with +3 Spd, so do Slaying Edge+ [Spd] and Wo Dao+ [Spd].

[XRay]

1 hour ago, DehNutCase said:

That's probably right---how do you deal with melee horse teams that just run at you until they're all dead, though? Those are firesweeps weakest matchup, for me, since a firesweep user would have to rely on the rest of the team to stall for time.

That is what the third and fourth unit is there for. Reinhardt kills everyone except Titania, Sigurd, and lance ponies that run Berkut's Lance. BH!Lyn can take care of Titania and Res tank ponies herself, so that just leaves Sigurd. Regular Sigurd will need two rounds of combat to kill, but his damage output is piss poor as a wall, so I can tank him if I am really running out of space. If he is running something more offensive, that means he is not running Crusader's Ward and he is pretty easy to kill without it.

Ranged ponies are a far bigger threat to me because their reach matches my reach on the map with vertical, parallel bridges.

Ideally, if I have the resources to whale again, I would switch out my ponies for fliers since they have less terrain restrictions. I can just run the exact same composition with ASS!Takumi, ASS!Camilla/SA!Tana, and YT!Olivia/HNY!Azura. With that setup, I would not even have problems with that bridge map.

[Lewyn]

22 hours ago, Junkhead said:

Yeah, Gunnthrá was a fun and creative character. Still yet to use her...

Not sure what you mean on Grima. I think he has Top 5 highest BST in the game, and people recieved him really well.

 

 

Oh Grima was well received cause he still was 174 BST, or 175BST with a boon and S tier.  I was just saying before his stats were datamined many people wanted him to have 180BST which is absurd.

22 hours ago, Mackc2 said:

People are stupid and want overpowered toys to play with, without realising that everyone else gets it too so they are going to have to fight those overpowered toys when they inevitably don't get them because gatcha 

People certainly don't think things through, and don't realize they are rooting for making older units worse and worse with time and thus their own collections.  Just dumb.

20 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Most of those aren't power creep. Just being better than an existing option isn't power creep if there's still no reason to use the new option.

Oscar, despite being almost strictly better than Abel, was not power creep because Peri exists and is marginally stronger than him. Dark Takumi, despite being strictly better than Clarisse, was not power creep because both of them were so far below average, it wouldn't have mattered if they existed or not outside of playing favorites.

And then there's Legendary Hector who is still a side grade of regular Hector because regular Hector can use Berserk Armads and Legendary Hector cannot.

 

If you're going to lay out the "worst" cases of power creep in the game's history, you're looking in the wrong places, unless you mean "worst" as in frivolities that don't matter in the grand scheme of things. The absolute largest instances of power creep in the game with no regard to Arena scoring are (approximately in order, kind of muddier at the bottom):

• The implementation of Skill Inheritance
  • Everyone gets access to Close Counter and Distant Counter.
  • Everyone gets access to Hone Atk and Hone Spd.
  • Everyone gets access to Reposition.
  • Bow users get access to Brave Bow.
  • Armors get access to Killer weapon + Swap + Bonfire + Distant Counter + Quick Riposte + Ward Armor.
  • Cavalry get access to Hone Cavalry.
  • Cavalry tome users get access to Litrblade.
  • Fliers get access to Hone Fliers.
  • etc.
• Reinhardt mk.1
• Bold Fighter
• The implementation of 5-star staves
• The implementation of the Weapon Refinery
  • Dragons get access to refined Lightning Breath.
  • Staff users get access to Dazzling Staff + Wrathful Staff.
• Brave Lyn
• Supports
• Xander, Camus (for free-to-players)
• Blessings
• Berserk Armads
• Other individual unit or skill additions

And except for the sheer dominance of cavalry after Skill Inheritance, I don't think anyone would argue that the implementation of Skill Inheritance was a bad thing. And I don't hear anyone complaining about Xander or Camus's existence.

And really, the "worst" case of power creep in this game's history was giving cavalry access to Litrblade and Hone Cavalry.

There are two forms of power creep IMO, and both are bad.  One is raising the overall power of the game, like suddenly the very best units aren't the best anymore.  Or new skills raise the power level of certain existing units, etc.  This seems to be what you are focusing on. It is something very dangerous that can quickly destroy a game if not handled with care. 

The other way is obsoleting old units by releasing units that are similar but strictly better or better in every way that counts.  There are many units cause of their stats have some niche, while they aren't S+ tier they can run some build or do something other units can't.  Once

Original Hector has no need to exist anymore.  LA Hector does the Berserk build much better, since he has more attack, defense, resistance, higher BST.  Original Hector did have the Omni breaker niche, yay something only he could do.  Well Legendary Hector does that much better.  So there is no niche, no build for regular Hector.  You are never using him over LA Hector or Legendary Hector if you have those 2 units, except for Arena Assault extra bodies and all that.

Summer Camilla, forgot about her.  What about people who spent tons of money for Summer Corrin?  Well Summer Camilla has better stats in everything that matters for a blade mage and has higher BST.  

Remember Amelia, trainee boost BST, wow!  Except every melee armor from Winter Envoy on has had higher BST.  What's the reason to keep raising BST?  I'm sure next year if not sooner we will get a 180BST unit.  Why can't they work with the original BST ranges they set?  

 

[Junkhead]

19 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

Oh Grima was well received cause he still was 174 BST, or 175BST with a boon and S tier.  I was just saying before his stats were datamined many people wanted him to have 180BST which is absurd.

I haven't fully checked, but I had no idea his BST went that high...it's ridiculous. lol

[XRay]

2 hours ago, Lewyn said:

There are two forms of power creep IMO, and both are bad.

I prefer sticking with the professional definition of power creep and labeling only those that affect the meta as power creep. Diluting the term makes the term less meaningful, sort of like how some people are just throwing around the term Nazis around to label someone they do not politically like.

2 hours ago, Lewyn said:

Well Legendary Hector does that much better.  So there is no niche, no build for regular Hector.

Hector does not need positioning requirements to make Armads-Wary Fighter-Quick Riposte to work. MOO!Hector needs allies for Thunder Armads to work. Not requiring positioning requirements is life saver on some PvE maps like Grand Hero Battles.

2 hours ago, Lewyn said:

Summer Camilla, forgot about her.  What about people who spent tons of money for Summer Corrin?  Well Summer Camilla has better stats in everything that matters for a blade mage and has higher BST.  

I spent a ton of money on NS!Corrin and I am fine with her being obsolete. This is a gacha game, so being outdated is expected. You can also never have too many Player Phase flier teams for Arena Assault, so even if NS!Corrin is obsolete by Arena standards, it is not like she is completely useless.

2 hours ago, Lewyn said:

What's the reason to keep raising BST?

I will give Intelligent Systems the benefit of the doubt in that raising everyone's BST besides ranged ponies and Dancers/Singers was their way of balancing the game. I think that raising BST is stupid and inelegant, but it is something. In my opinion, implementing Trenches is the better solution, but gen II stats were already in the game by then.

[Ice Dragon]

@XRay pretty much covered most of what I would have otherwise said, so I won't muddy things up by just reposting it.

 

10 hours ago, Lewyn said:

Summer Camilla, forgot about her.  What about people who spent tons of money for Summer Corrin?  Well Summer Camilla has better stats in everything that matters for a blade mage and has higher BST.

Summer Camilla has virtually zero Ploy potential and is kind of terrible at baiting magic with her exceptionally low Res.

[Lewyn]

7 hours ago, XRay said:

I prefer sticking with the professional definition of power creep and labeling only those that affect the meta as power creep. Diluting the term makes the term less meaningful, sort of like how some people are just throwing around the term Nazis around to label someone they do not politically like.

Hector does not need positioning requirements to make Armads-Wary Fighter-Quick Riposte to work. MOO!Hector needs allies for Thunder Armads to work. Not requiring positioning requirements is life saver on some PvE maps like Grand Hero Battles.

I spent a ton of money on NS!Corrin and I am fine with her being obsolete. This is a gacha game, so being outdated is expected. You can also never have too many Player Phase flier teams for Arena Assault, so even if NS!Corrin is obsolete by Arena standards, it is not like she is completely useless.

I will give Intelligent Systems the benefit of the doubt in that raising everyone's BST besides ranged ponies and Dancers/Singers was their way of balancing the game. I think that raising BST is stupid and inelegant, but it is something. In my opinion, implementing Trenches is the better solution, but gen II stats were already in the game by then.

1. I think power creeping a niche unit is still power creep.  If there is something a unit does better than any other, but a better version comes along I call that power creep.  Even if said unit isn't S+ tier.  

2. The positioning thing is pretty much irrelevant.  People aren't running regular Hector with horses and stuff, he is usually with other armors or dragons/high BST infantry.  He wants the buffs from his teammates as well.  Maybe Grand Hero battle, but I thought the talk was mostly about arena not PVE?  

3. If that is what is expected from gacha games maybe the playerbase should raise their expectations, particularly the ones putting money into it.  There are much better ways to design units than just making a more powerful version of an existing one.

5 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

@XRay pretty much covered most of what I would have otherwise said, so I won't muddy things up by just reposting it.

 

Summer Camilla has virtually zero Ploy potential and is kind of terrible at baiting magic with her exceptionally low Res.

26 res is pretty crappy still, and defense is much more important stat.  Summer corrin can only ploy if she has a res superboon, and even then 30 is not much.  Defense is a much more important stat overall, attack, speed of course as well.  

[XRay]

2 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

1. I think power creeping a niche unit is still power creep.  If there is something a unit does better than any other, but a better version comes along I call that power creep.  Even if said unit isn't S+ tier.

It does not matter what lay people think when defining terminology for a technical field.

For example, Fire Emblem Heroes generated about $300 million in revenue last year, and whoever says Heroes generated $300 million in profit is financially illiterate and is not using the term profit correctly. If Nintendo's accounting/finance department claims that they generated that much in profits, those people responsible for making those claims would be fired at best and would be investigated for fraud and imprisoned at worst.

I do not think the consequences for mislabeling power creep is that dire, but labeling any sort of buff that does not affect the meta as power creep is drawing the wrong attention.

20 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

Maybe Grand Hero battle, but I thought the talk was mostly about arena not PVE?  

If it is about Arena, then yeah, I agree that having allies around is not that big of a deal, and Hector in that case does not have his niche in that context.

22 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

3. If that is what is expected from gacha games maybe the playerbase should raise their expectations, particularly the ones putting money into it.  There are much better ways to design units than just making a more powerful version of an existing one.

I am fine with it. I assume most whales are fine with it too since they have the resources and disposable income to keep up.

They eventually have to make a unit with a more min-max stat distribution anyways with their gen II stat formula, so I would not be surprised if ASS!Camilla got dethroned later.

What I personally want to see is ASS!Takumi get dethroned by a flying archer with 40/40 offensive spread. That will then allow me to create 3 separate flier teams with different blessings for Arena Assault.

[FoxyGrandpa]

The way I see it, only units added to the 4 star pool can be considered powercreep because these units are much easier to obtain and merge than 5 star units that the average player will have a miniscule chance of obtaining randomly.

Units like soleil, Ares, Shiguere, male Morgan, and Sothe are much better examples of powercreep than a unit like Ayra imo, who 90% of players will have trouble summoning, let alone getting 10 copies of. Soleil especially is disgusting in that she outclasses nearly every 5 star swordsman in her archetype with her amazing offensive stats (for reference, a +atk soleil w/ a brave sword has the same attack and speed as ALM w/ his falchion, which is just insane}.

One of the reasons why Reinhardt became so notorious is because he was in the 4 star pool, allowing for most players to easily access. Any 5 star unit simply does not have this luxury.

Edited July 26, 2018 by FoxyGrandpa

[XRay]

17 minutes ago, FoxyGrandpa said:

The way I see it, only units added to the 4 star pool can be considered powercreep because these units are much easier to obtain and merge than 5 star units that the average player will have a miniscule chance of obtaining randomly.

That is not how power creep is cosidered or defined. Accessibility based on money has no influence on power creep and the meta.

Most players will be facing Ayras and FH!Robins once they hit the appropriate score range and whether those players have access to 5* exclusive units does not change the fact the meta has Ayras and FH!Robins.

Just because most players cannot afford ASS!Takumi does not mean he is not power creep either. Being able to run Firesweep as a flier with 35/35 offensive spread is ridiculously good. For Player Phase whales, WOF!Hinoka herself already breaks Arena, making it super easy. There is no enemy team composition a flying Player Phase team cannot handle.

[Lewyn]

On 7/26/2018 at 5:12 PM, XRay said:

It does not matter what lay people think when defining terminology for a technical field.

For example, Fire Emblem Heroes generated about $300 million in revenue last year, and whoever says Heroes generated $300 million in profit is financially illiterate and is not using the term profit correctly. If Nintendo's accounting/finance department claims that they generated that much in profits, those people responsible for making those claims would be fired at best and would be investigated for fraud and imprisoned at worst.

I do not think the consequences for mislabeling power creep is that dire, but labeling any sort of buff that does not affect the meta as power creep is drawing the wrong attention.

If it is about Arena, then yeah, I agree that having allies around is not that big of a deal, and Hector in that case does not have his niche in that context.

I am fine with it. I assume most whales are fine with it too since they have the resources and disposable income to keep up.

They eventually have to make a unit with a more min-max stat distribution anyways with their gen II stat formula, so I would not be surprised if ASS!Camilla got dethroned later.

What I personally want to see is ASS!Takumi get dethroned by a flying archer with 40/40 offensive spread. That will then allow me to create 3 separate flier teams with different blessings for Arena Assault.

1. Power creep is some slang term created by some gamer, it is hardly some sacred precise set in concrete thing.  Regardless if you want to call it 'power creep' or not, new units obsoleting old ones is stupid and unnecessary as well as lazy.

2. So whales are fine throwing money in the toilet?  Do they smoke cigars and light them with hundred dollar bills?  Cause essentially that is what it is, investing heavily in a unit that is power creeped later.  What is it 1600 dollars on average to +10 a unit?  So spending that amount of money for an image, stats and voice line that is made obsolete a year later.  Hard to think of much worse ways to spend money.  

3. Besides whales who spend millions or whatever, such practices is going to heavily discourage people who aren't whales but spend (dolphins and less) as well as a general hit to reputation.  

 

[Ice Dragon]

17 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

Power creep is some slang term created by some gamer, it is hardly some sacred precise set in concrete thing.

And you have proof of the word's etymology?

And regardless, it doesn't matter if it started from gamer slang or gamer academics. The fact of the matter is that it is now a well-defined technical term. In fact, the Hearthstone wiki has a really good article on it.

 

22 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

So whales are fine throwing money in the toilet?

What's the point of paying a few hundred for a meal at a fancy restaurant when it's just going to get shit out into the toilet the next day? What about going to the movie theater to watch a movie? A Caribbean cruise?

None of those have lasting tangible value, but people pay for them because they give an amount of enjoyment deemed worth it for the cost.

 

24 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

What is it 1600 dollars on average to +10 a unit?

800-1000 USD on average. Plus a bunch of pity breakers and skill fodder and a mountain of feathers.

[XRay]

4 hours ago, Lewyn said:

new units obsoleting old ones is stupid and unnecessary as well as lazy.

I would not call it stupid or lazy depending on how they do it. If they kept BST formula the same, I am perfectly fine with them releasing new stat distributions that may make older stat distributions obsolete.

However, I agree with you that increasing BST is unnecessary, stupid, and lazy, but I will give them a pass for attempting to make ponies less dominant in the meta.

4 hours ago, Lewyn said:

Hard to think of much worse ways to spend money.

Well, people can literally try...

4 hours ago, Lewyn said:

throwing money in the toilet

 

4 hours ago, Lewyn said:

3. Besides whales who spend millions or whatever, such practices is going to heavily discourage people who aren't whales but spend (dolphins and less) as well as a general hit to reputation.  

We actually do not know that for sure. Without access to their detailed financial data and maybe some experiments, there is no way to confirm the hypothesis.