Who shouldn't belong in the 5* summoning pool?

[Garlyle]

Let's face it, summoning 5* units is great and all, but when you look at all of them, they don't all look that premium units. There was already a reduction on recruitment stars for some units this April, yet it seems like there are still units there you wouldn't want as your pitybreaker, especially if they don't have anything good to inherit. Not to mention as new units come out, some statlines becomes unimpressive down the line as the meta changes.

So, who shouldn't belong in the 5* pool, and who you don't want as your pitybreaker?

[Dayni]

Eldigan, Gray, Karel, Lucina, Luke, Lyn, Saber, Leo, Sanaki, Tiki, Azura, Ephraim, Hinoka, Ninian, Minerva, Faye, Takumi (Seeing as he's hit 4* by now), Jaffar, Elise and Mist all could drop imo. Most would be fine as 4-5*, though I could see some dropping to 3-4* as well

Maybe Alm, regular Ike, Ryoma, Katarina, Linde, Olwen, Julia, Sonya, Genny, Innes and even Brave Roy and Lucina could drop as well.

Sumia should have dropped too after the Awakening banner imo.

[Humanoid]

I'd outright abolish the 4-5* category. If you're demoted, you're 3-4*. If you're available at 5*, you're a 5* exclusive.

[Garlyle]

32 minutes ago, Dayni said:

Eldigan, Gray, Karel, Lucina, Luke, Lyn, Saber, Leo, Sanaki, Tiki, Azura, Ephraim, Hinoka, Ninian, Minerva, Faye, Takumi (Seeing as he's hit 4* by now), Jaffar, Elise and Mist all could drop imo. Most would be fine as 4-5*, though I could see some dropping to 3-4* as well

Maybe Alm, regular Ike, Ryoma, Katarina, Linde, Olwen, Julia, Sonya, Genny, Innes and even Brave Roy and Lucina could drop as well.

Sumia should have dropped too after the Awakening banner imo.

I don't think Takumi will drop soon, he's got Close Counter. But I can agree with a lot of this.

What about Shiro, Tana, Libra or Julia? They can be useful, but there are better stats out there, and they don't offer anything fancy for inheritance.

[Dayni]

1 minute ago, Garlyle said:

I don't think Takumi will drop soon, he's got Close Counter. But I can agree with a lot of this.

He also gets it at 5*, not 4*, so it's not impossible. He'll only go down if Hector does to be fair (Bring Hector down IS, I wand Goad Armour already!).

1 minute ago, Garlyle said:

What about Shiro, Tana, Libra or Julia? They can be useful, but there are better stats out there, and they don't offer anything fancy for inheritance.

I put Julia down as possibly (being a dragon counter, I con't say she'd easily go down), Libra's already 4-5* so I don't think there'll be much push to push him lower any time soon and he and Shiro are also more recent (Shrio was in December, but still think he's one they'd be slow to drop anyway).

Tana might have been an error on my part, probably should put in the same category as Innes. I clearly keep overrating her (considering I never pulled her, can you blame me?)

[Vaximillian]

46 minutes ago, Dayni said:

Faye

Firesweep cancer ahoy. No thanks, even despite the fact that I ❤ Faye and would want to +10 her.

[bottlegnomes]

For the sake of transparency, @Dayni, this is in response to your list, but not directed entirely at you, as I've seen lots of other people's lists who do the same.

I feel like a lot of these lists don't take into account SI. Like Firesweep Bow doesn't really need to be in the 4* pool. I'd love a bunch, but how many people in tier 18.5 like seeing it? I know it's a pain for me. Imagine seeing every brave Lyn running FS CA L&D. Same with Hinoka. Does hone fliers really need to be in the 4* pool? Fliers were already on par with cavs as far as movement types go prior to trenches, and we all remember how awful the cav dominance used to be. Now they're pretty much the best type for map control.

Anywy, more directly at @Dayni, even if Takumi does, Hector's never dropping unless something really changes. DC is far more desirable than CC. Also, I feel like people underestimate Nameless Blade. And lastly, why Lucina? She's still a top tier sword infantry, arguably best or second best Falchion user, and a great combat medic on top of all of that.

Anyway, personally, list maybe later, but criteria for 5*:

1. Exclusives that make them very good (e.g. Ayra)

2. Very desirable SI (e.g. Faye and Hector)

3. Popularity - If a popular character sucks (Odin? Don't actually know how popular he is), they shouldn't be there, but if an otherwise good but borderline character is super popular I can see them staying (e.g. Lucina)

4. The stats to be able to make use of their exclusive toys (e.g. Why I'm okay with Lucina being 5*, but Chrom wasn't and shouldn't have ever been)

Edited August 23, 2018 by bottlegnomes
Including 4th (3rd) factor I forgot.

[Garlyle]

4 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

And lastly, why Lucina? She's still a top tier sword infantry, arguably best or second best Falchion user, and a great combat medic on top of all of that.

You can build that from Masked Marth too, the Falchion is already given, and the statline is pretty much the same. Her passives however are outdated IMO, Brazen is superior to Defiant and Drive is superior to single Spur skills. Aether is a good inherit, but Chrom already carries it in the 3*-4* pool.

[bottlegnomes]

5 minutes ago, Garlyle said:

You can build that from Masked Marth too, the Falchion is already given, and the statline is pretty much the same. Her passives however are outdated IMO, Brazen is superior to Defiant and Drive is superior to single Spur skills. Aether is a good inherit, but Chrom already carries it in the 3*-4* pool.

Fair, I guess. But Lucina has IVs, which can make a pretty significant difference. 34/36 is very good, but 37/36 or 34/39 is great. I know Hana and Soleil have similar stats, but they don't have the toys.

I guess I should say, I'm not hardcore opposed, just that for as much as she comes up in these discussions, it feels like she's one of the less likely candidates given everything about her.

Also forgot one more 5* factor: popularity. 

Edited August 23, 2018 by bottlegnomes

[Dayni]

15 minutes ago, Vaximillian said:

Firesweep cancer ahoy. No thanks, even despite the fact that I ❤ Faye and would want to +10 her.

I mean, Rody's already 3-4* and Dazzling Pain's already a thing. I don't think this changes much at all as those who'd pulled her already would at least consider it.

12 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

On the sake of transparency, @Dayni, this is in response to your list, but not directed entirely at you, as I've seen lots of other people's lists who do the same.

I feel like a lot of these lists don't take into account SI. Like Firesweep Bow doesn't really need to be in the 4* pool. I'd love a bunch, but how many people in tier 18.5 like seeing it? I know it's a pain for me. Imagine seeing every brave Lyn running FS CA L&D. Same with Hinoka. Does hone fliers really need to be in the 4* pool? Fliers were already on par with cavs as far as movement types go prior to trenches, and we all remember how awful the cav dominance used to be. Now they're pretty much the best type for map control.

Also, more directly at @Dayni, even if Takumi does, Hector's never dropping unless something really changes. DC is far more desirable than CC. Also, I feel like people underestimate Nameless Blade. And lastly, why Lucina? She's still a top tier sword infantry, arguably best or second best Falchion user, and a great combat medic on top of all of that.

This is mostly me wanting to clean older units, so to be fair you're right there. I still think that the idea of flier dominance is a bit less prevalent. CYL2 seems set to make armours a nightmare so I'm not so sure these tools won't be pushed just yet.

You're definitely not wrong in the unlikelihood of Hector dropping. I know Hector's just that unlikely, I'd still like to see it but the results would be utter madness. Yeah, I think you're right on my underestimating Nameless Blade, despite me being someone who upgraded Hauteclere. Lucina dropping certainly wouldn't change as much barring allowing more merges, we've had a similar unit who needed a bit more SI and doesn't have as much freedom with IVs as is since June 2017, I might be underestimating the difference 3 attack and especially 3 speed would make but we know how IVs can be as is.

Alright, I do see your criteria, but I think No. 3 could be a bit debatable there. Would Ryoma have too good stats to drop in your opinion?

Edited August 23, 2018 by Dayni

[Vaximillian]

2 minutes ago, Dayni said:

I mean, Rody's already 3-4* and Dazzling Pain's already a thing. I don't think this changes much at all as those who'd pulled her already would at least consider it.

Dazzling Pain is five-star, thankfully, and must stay so. (Dazzling refine, on the other hand… Well, it’s technically five-star too.)
Ranged firesweep is by definition stronger than melee firesweep.

[Hilda]

yeah i think the 5 Star pool is a bit bloated, This units should be demoted imho:

Red:
Regular Ike: Heavy Blade has lost alot of his apeal and the character itself got powercreept.
Eldigan: Dont see the reason for him to stay in 5 Star pool when his Son is better and also available at 4 Star
Karel: yeah no important skills and wo dao is in the 4 Star pool allready
Chrom: because lets face it Masked Lucina is allready here and his exculsivity is kinda meh
Gray: everytime i get pitybroken by him i rage...
Saber: the 4 Star pool could use his Slaying weapon and Shield Pulse. Besides he isnt that great to warrant 5 Star
Ryoma: lets face it same reason as Ike, he got powercreepd by alot of red units and his skill set doesnt justifie a 5 Star exclusivity
Lyn: do i have to comment on this? its obvious
Lucina: same reason as chrom
Katarina: because the regular red pool could use an owl tome
Sanaki: to little to offer to be justified in the 5 Star pool
Leo: Eirika exists

Blue:
Azura: She has been on so many banners, and there are so many more good dancers
Ephraim
Tana: yeah Shigure kinda made her 5 Star spot not anymore justified, coupled with Guidance
Hinoka
Olwen: because Reinhardt is that much better then her
Delthea: seriously there is no reason to use her anymore and lock her behind 5 Stars
Linde: same reason as Delthea
Lute: same reason as Linde

Green:
Amelia: Armor march is in all places and Green could use a free Armor unit that isnt Sheena
Minerva: no reason to stay in tier 5, especially because Sothe provides now Life and death
Rhajat: Distant Def would be a nice addition to tier 5 and a Gronnwolf, otherwise she has no buseness to stay up there
Sonya: lets face it who uses her much anymore?
Julia: lets face it there could be more dragon killers, lets keep deirdra at 5 Star but Julia has no buseness to stay there

Colorless:
Takumi: Close Counter is overrated and only usefull on maybe 5 ranged units, that skill doesnt varrant a 5 Star lock
Innes: outdated with his personal bow and the 4 Star pool could use Cancel Affinity
Jaffar: i still wonder what he is doing up there...
Alja: yeah teh sister that has no buseiness up there either.
 

besides that its almost time to make subcategorys and remove some 3/4 Star units from the summoning pool entirely and just hand them out for free. Or they need to split it somehow!

[Fabulously Olivier]

55 minutes ago, Humanoid said:

I'd outright abolish the 4-5* category. If you're demoted, you're 3-4*. If you're available at 5*, you're a 5* exclusive.

This.

[bottlegnomes]

@Dayni I'd have to run numbers on it, but I feel like they might. Like I said earlier, I'm not super opposed, and would love to +10 her, but given everything, she seems like one of the less likely debatable ones given everything (including popularity since I forgot that before).

As for Ryoma, I'd have to look into it. My only one is +res/-atk so he doesn't see much use. But maybe? His toy is DC. He has solid offense, but it limits at 34/35 +IVs, A skill, and seal, unlike Lucina who gets weapon buffs. But anyway, DC. To really make use of it, from my experience, you need bulk, either absurd defenses, or a way to mitigate doubles and solid defenses. I don't know that Ryoma has the bulk to make super good use of DC, but like I said, I'm not too sure.

And yeah, definitely run some sims on Karel if you're ever bored. It's pretty impressive what he can do with +atk, moonbow, wrath, and Nameless Blade. Heck, Fir isn't bad with that setup, but apparently that 4 strength makes a pretty big difference.

Edited August 23, 2018 by bottlegnomes

[Fabulously Olivier]

Every single character at 4-5 star rarity.

Azura

Gray

Regular Hinoka

Regular Ike

Karel

Leo

Luke

Regular Lyn

Mist

Saber

Sanaki

Sonya

Edited August 23, 2018 by Etheus

[bottlegnomes]

Regarding Karel, I want everyone to consider something (all enemies +5, fury, +3 buffs across the board), challenger initiates:

Ayra 34 HP (max wrath range) +atk/-res Slaying Edge+ spd, Regnal Astra, DC, Wrath, atk 3 seal:

197/79/1

Karel 37 HP, Nameless Blade, same kit and IVs:

203/45/29

Karel matches Ayra with both having basically 0 cooldown after the first round of combat. Yeah, wrath is 5*, and Ayra has other kits she can run where she excels much more, but do you really want basically Ayra 2.0 running around in the 4* pool?

[MacLovin]

F morgan

 

[Michelaar]

The problem is. Fir also has nameless blade, and Ayra's stats are far more superior.

[Tiduca]

51 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

Karel matches Ayra with both having basically 0 cooldown after the first round of combat. Yeah, wrath is 5*, and Ayra has other kits she can run where she excels much more, but do you really want basically Ayra 2.0 running around in the 4* pool?

Meanwhile, Fir.

[bottlegnomes]

18 minutes ago, Tiduca said:

Meanwhile, Fir.

Fit does very well too, but there's a distinct difference. For reference she's at 170/78/29. Same basic case as Chrom vs. Lucina, just possibly not as lopsided.

Edited August 23, 2018 by bottlegnomes

[Garlyle]

11 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

Fit does very well too, but there's a distinct difference. For reference she's at 170/78/29.

To be honest, there's a lot of sword users with the high offensive values, I don't think Brave Celica, Ayra or Karla will get out of the 5* bucket anytime soon. But Karel and Fir doesn't differ that much in my opinion, and the rest of Karel's kit is not that premium anymore. He's slowly slipping into the category where you need high investment to make him a great sword unit, and that can push him down to the 3*-4* pool. Also, that high HP value is not really what this archetype is looking for, this could be another reason why he'll drop.

[bottlegnomes]

5 minutes ago, Garlyle said:

To be honest, there's a lot of sword users with the high offensive values, I don't think Brave Celica, Ayra or Karla will get out of the 5* bucket anytime soon. But Karel and Fir doesn't differ that much in my opinion, and the rest of Karel's kit is not that premium anymore. He's slowly slipping into the category where you need high investment to make him a great sword unit, and that can push him down to the 3*-4* pool. Also, that high HP value is not really what this archetype is looking for, this could be another reason why he'll drop.

I will say it's only 13 damage, which isn't hard to accomplish with his low defenses, plus optional fury. Otherwise true. I suppose I can see him dropping, but he's like Lucina where for as much as he comes up in these discussions he just strikes me as one of the less likely because of his ceiling.

Also, was curious and ran Chrom and Lucina (same combat conditions as before):

Lucina 32/43, +spd/-res, Sealed Falchion, moonbow, L&D, Desperation, speed seal:

219/44/14

Chrom 23/47, +atk/-res, Sealed Falchion, moonbow, Brazen Atk/Def, Desperation, Brash Assault:

171/32/74

So actually not as lopsided as I would've thought. Neither requires any 5* exclusive skills. That's not to argue the point, just ran them because I was curious.

Also MM, same as Lucina, but neutral:

185/55/37

So IVs do make a noticeable, even substantial, but not massive difference.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Karel

 

Heres the thing about Karel that people didn't realize, he's actually stupidly broken and secretly Top 5 Swordies

Its just that NOBODY have Karel or bother to experiment with him. He's actually roughly better than Mia as a whole(if reliant on special)

 

Truly we need him in 4* pool simply because this kind of monster

Edited August 23, 2018 by JSND Alter Dragon Boner

[MacLovin]

2 minutes ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

Karel

 

Heres the thing about Karel that people didn't realize, he's actually stupidly broken and secretly Top 5 Swordies

 

Its just that NOBODY have Karel or bother to experiment with him. He's actually roughly better than Mia as a whole

 

Truly we need him in 4* pool simply because this kind of monster deserve being alvailable

i mean in as good as that sword is, he's going to drop eventually.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

7 minutes ago, Joe Cool said:

i mean in as good as that sword is, he's going to drop eventually.

I do support Karel dropping to 4*, because the option 4* have for "broken sword" are Soleil who is literally just stats

We need broken weapon too, and Karel fits that definition

But yea, he's genuinely a really good unit. People just sleep on him

 

I mean

 

Come on, that says everything