Who shouldn't belong in the 5* summoning pool?

[Dayni]

2 hours ago, Vaximillian said:

Dazzling Pain is five-star, thankfully, and must stay so. (Dazzling refine, on the other hand… Well, it’s technically five-star too.)
Ranged firesweep is by definition stronger than melee firesweep.

The bow itself is still 5*, while you can also promote several 3-* units to 5* right now for Pain+.

You're not wrong, I have enough reminders of Double Savage Dazzling Pain as is.

2 hours ago, bottlegnomes said:

@Dayni I'd have to run numbers on it, but I feel like they might. Like I said earlier, I'm not super opposed, and would love to +10 her, but given everything, she seems like one of the less likely debatable ones given everything (including popularity since I forgot that before).

As for Ryoma, I'd have to look into it. My only one is +res/-atk so he doesn't see much use. But maybe? His toy is DC. He has solid offense, but it limits at 34/35 +IVs, A skill, and seal, unlike Lucina who gets weapon buffs. But anyway, DC. To really make use of it, from my experience, you need bulk, either absurd defenses, or a way to mitigate doubles and solid defenses. I don't know that Ryoma has the bulk to make super good use of DC, but like I said, I'm not too sure.

And yeah, definitely run some sims on Karel if you're ever bored. It's pretty impressive what he can do with +atk, moonbow, wrath, and Nameless Blade. Heck, Fir isn't bad with that setup, but apparently that 4 strength makes a pretty big difference.

Hmm, I probably should have put her in the same category as Alm considering his skillset (Refine aside) isn't all that exceptional a pull for fodder.

Can't say too much as I never summoned him.

Would Gimmer be better for Karel with that higher strength?

[MacLovin]

3 minutes ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

I do support Karel dropping to 4*, because the option 4* have for "broken sword" are Soleil who is literally just stats

We need broken weapon too, and Karel fits that definition

But yea, he's genuinely a really good unit. People just sleep on him

 

I mean

 

Come on, that says everything

 

huh

that looks fun.

shame there's so many SWORD WAIFUS though.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

7 minutes ago, Joe Cool said:

huh

that looks fun.

shame there's so many SWORD WAIFUS though.

Mind its not like i would

 

uhh

 

use him

My Sword spot is almost permanently for Marth since i love buffstacking so much

 

although some recent change made me reconsider but yeah... Marth's a god

[Marcodian_Elite]

I bring these two up mostly because they were my pity breakers on this current CYL banner, Mist and Gray, demote them now lol

[bottlegnomes]

@Dayni That seems reasonable. Both have high ceilings, but take not insignificant investment to reach it, and don't offer much in the way of SI. I feel like Alm is less likely because 58 attack dragon-effective brave is more unique than super strong desperation swordie.

As for glimmer, I hadn't actually stopped to consider that. I'm like 99% sure special damage is after the initial Calc, so (damage * 1.5) + 20 for glimmer, (atk - (def - 0.3def)) + 20 for moonbow. I kind of assumed since Karel's attack isn't super great, not bad, just not amazing, moonbow by default would be better. Can't hurt to check though :P

Anyway, also @Garlyle, I guess we're getting into the whole what matters in regards to combat: Ceiling or ceiling + investment? I'd been leaning toward just ceiling, but I can definitely see a case for both.

Edited August 23, 2018 by bottlegnomes

[Garlyle]

2 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

Anyway, also @Garlyle, I guess we're getting into the whole what matters in regards to combat: Ceiling or ceiling + investment? I'd been leaning toward just ceiling, but I can definitely see a case for both.

It's personal preference really. Clearly I don't see the full potential of Karel, yet I see OP units in the 3*-4* pool too. They are not the greatest from the start, but with some investment, they can be, that's how I see things.

[MacLovin]

50 minutes ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

Mind its not like i would

 

uhh

 

use him

My Sword spot is almost permanently for Marth since i love buffstacking so much

 

although some recent change made me reconsider but yeah... Marth's a god

Belica/Soleil for me, but Marth will get there sometime, along with EIrika.

 

 

hmn is Eph still 5*?

[bottlegnomes]

@Garlyle Oh yeah, I don't expect us to reach a firm conclusion. I just think it's kind of a fun philosophical question.

[Thinks Their Own Way]

*Looks at units before the Genealogy banner with Sigurd he doesn't have and wants*:

• Alm
• Eldigan
• Faye
• Hinoka
• Innes
• Linde
• Minerva
• Mist
• Saber
• Tana
• Young Tiki

Serious choices: Units that are in the 4-5 pool, Azura, Eldigan, Elise, Ephraim, Gray, Hinoka, Ike, Jaffar, Julia, Karel, Leo, Luke, Mist, Ninian, Olwen, Saber, Sanaki, Takumi.

[Hilda]

2 hours ago, bottlegnomes said:

Regarding Karel, I want everyone to consider something (all enemies +5, fury, +3 buffs across the board), challenger initiates:

Ayra 34 HP (max wrath range) +atk/-res Slaying Edge+ spd, Regnal Astra, DC, Wrath, atk 3 seal:

197/79/1

Karel 37 HP, Nameless Blade, same kit and IVs:

203/45/29

Karel matches Ayra with both having basically 0 cooldown after the first round of combat. Yeah, wrath is 5*, and Ayra has other kits she can run where she excels much more, but do you really want basically Ayra 2.0 running around in the 4* pool?

I like to send out my Karel in Ostia pulse with Vengeance and 70 HP and wrath. The harder you hit the harder he retaliates :D. Has been fun so far one shoting blue red and green units with HP around 10 HP all he is missing is double HP+4/SPD+2 because atm he is running HP/RES and HP/DEF ._..

Obviously the moonbow built is more consistent but i like my +10 HP boon Karel the way he is, he has alot of bulk with 70 HP which makes him first an enemyphase or playerphase unit depending on the target and turns him later on into a murdering machine the lower his HP get. With a 1 turn cooldown on phase 1 its also kinda scary to attack him in Ostia pulse Team, because there is no way he can be one shot with full HP and he will hit back HARD like really HARD.

[Hilda]

45 minutes ago, Garlyle said:

It's personal preference really. Clearly I don't see the full potential of Karel, yet I see OP units in the 3*-4* pool too. They are not the greatest from the start, but with some investment, they can be, that's how I see things.

Raven is pretty OP against any kind of Melee unit with shield pulse and his refine + Heavy blade seal. This is the only unit i have seen so far that can take less dmg from a counter color and dish out more dmg back without needing a dmging special.

[coldhand25]

I agree with everyone here mentioning units to drop, I'm just gonna give my reasons I guess.

red:

Spoiler

Lucina - she is the same as Masked Marth (only difference are ivs) in term of stats, and her passives are available at 4* heroes, so there is no point in her being 5* only
Luke - I just don't want to be pity-broken by him...
Karel - I actually wonder why he is 5*, he is by no means weak, but Fir being 3-4* and having the same weapon can be made so much stronger, meanwhile other 5* are stronger than him (Karla, Ayra...)
Lene - I guess she is only 5* because of dance, but she is not that good imho, most people would just inherit her safeguard to someone else
Gray - I guess IS just forgot about him, as neither wind boost, nor zanbato is that good of a skill...
Saber
Leo
Katarina - good way to make swift sparrow less common, but that doesn't mean she is actually that useful

blue:

Spoiler

Ephraim - Eirika is like 3*, let us have her brother plz
Hinoka - basically every lance flier should be demoted since Shigure is a 4*
Tana - her weapon is just a worse lance-safeguard, also guidance is available as a seal now also she is my favourite from Sacred Stones, let me have her IS plz
Azura - infantry dancers shouldn't be 5*, also she is a launch unit, so her base kit is rather bad as well, maybe if she would get a weapon upgrade...
Delthea
Linde        - they are strong for sure, but they are mostly used by players who like the character, and not because they are so good
Lute
Olwen - it's just simply a bad joke... she is worse than Reinhardt in everything, but still 5*... she is thiccer tho, so I might know the reason why she is exclusive
Ninian - she is scary as a +10, but it's not like she is that good as a +0

green:

Spoiler

Dorcas - Serene Pitybreaker, infantry pulse is OP, but it was free with Marisa so everyone can have a +1 infantry pulse sword unit in their team, right?
Minerva - LnD is already 4*, sry Minerva
Amelia - maybe I just want to get all the Sacred Stones characters, but Amelia could be safely dropped, Hectors are just so much better for axe armour
Sonya - then again, I like echoes as well, and she is in the same situation as Delthea, Linde and Lute
Julia - she can be strong if one builds her right, but need high investment anyway, so why 5*?

colourless:

Spoiler

Innes - he is almost the same as Leon statwise but with high Res instead of Defense, so he can be used better as a player phase mage killer, but Nidhogg is not that strong, Fortress Res is available as a seal, and Fortress Def is already at 4* with Seth... Not like anyone would use fortress res on him anyway...
Faye - Firesweep Bow is strong, no argue about it, but so is Firesweep Lance and Sword on the good unit... I don't think it's that much better though, that it should be a 5* exclusive weapon, and I also just want all the Fayes I can have
Jaffar - the only non-seasonal 5* exclusive dagger, his only good thing is his weapon, and once again LnD is already in 4*
Elise - ...
Mist - even bigger "..."

I hope we will get another demotion wave soon, maybe with the next patch or something, because right now it's hard to get your favourites, which makes the game less fun...

[Jotari]

4 hours ago, Dayni said:

He also gets it at 5*, not 4*, so it's not impossible. He'll only go down if Hector does to be fair (Bring Hector down IS, I wand Goad Armour already!).

I put Julia down as possibly (being a dragon counter, I con't say she'd easily go down), Libra's already 4-5* so I don't think there'll be much push to push him lower any time soon and he and Shiro are also more recent (Shrio was in December, but still think he's one they'd be slow to drop anyway).

Tana might have been an error on my part, probably should put in the same category as Innes. I clearly keep overrating her (considering I never pulled her, can you blame me?)

Distant Counter is worth way more than Close Counter though. Most two range units are pretty enemy phase focused in their stat line while a lot of melee units are either player phase or enemy phased focused. There's tonnes of characters I wish I could give Distant Counter to, but I have two Takumi's that I never use and haven't canabelized simply because there's no decent character wanting for Close Counter over other A skills. Not saying it's a good skill, there's definitely units it works on (Jacob, Christmas Thraja to name two), there's just a lot more units that would benefit from Distant Counter being more available than Close Counter.

[XRay]

I despise non-Dancer/Singer melee units to the core. They are absolute shit, and I am still fucking pissed at those disgusting Ayra and Ares filths pity breaking me when going for YT!Olivia. Melee units are plain garbage, and the only reason they remain relevant is because Intelligent Systems babies them with Arena scoring, not because of their own merits. There is a reason why players rarely, if ever, complain about facing melee units in Arena; they pose little to no challenge. If something as stupid as the AI can be made a threat with ranged units, that just highlights how powerful having greater reach and attack range is and why melee units needed a BST boost.

If a melee unit is not a Dancer/Singer, does not have sought after skills (Distant Counter, Vengeful Fighter, etc), and does not have a Distant Counter Weapon, those melee crap do not deserve to be in the 5* pool. 

 

[MacLovin]

53 minutes ago, Hilda said:

Raven is pretty OP against any kind of Melee unit with shield pulse and his refine + Heavy blade seal. This is the only unit i have seen so far that can take less dmg from a counter color and dish out more dmg back without needing a dmging special.

Raven's fun. Shame I'm still waiting for a +spd one.

3 minutes ago, XRay said:

I despise non-Dancer/Singer melee units to the core. They are absolute shit, and I am still fucking pissed at those disgusting Ayra and Ares filths pity breaking me when going for YT!Olivia. Melee units are plain garbage, and the only reason they remain relevant is because Intelligent Systems babies them with Arena scoring, not because of their own merits. There is a reason why players rarely, if ever, complain about facing melee units in Arena; they pose little to no challenge. If something as stupid as the AI can be made a threat with ranged units, that just highlights how powerful having greater reach and attack range is and why melee units needed a BST boost.

If a melee unit is not a Dancer/Singer, does not have sought after skills (Distant Counter, Vengeful Fighter, etc), and does not have a Distant Counter Weapon, those melee crap do not deserve to be in the 5* pool. 

 

yo

they're like the best selling ones that everyone wants. 

------

and for my actual list of 5*s that might merit a drop.

• Morgan F- Honestly if she was infantry, she'd be 4*s. Blarserpent is a unique tome that might just merit a drop for accessibility. However, Morgan F isn't meta defining by any means and her only merit would be as a rather unique mage flier in the normal pool. Still, she's a blue flier and would be competing for slots with plenty of others.
• Lucina- We have masked marth showing up everywhere and we've already gotten chrom/marth in the 4/3 pool. 
• Luke- Honestly, he could stand to drop. While he is prime fodder, he's also kinda just mediocre
• Celica- Not that special as she requires healing support for maximum performance. She's nice, but could stand a drop.
• Leo- He's not that good any more.
• Young Tiki- Good, but not too amazing considering Adult Tiki can also have BoF.
• Katarina- Doesn't seem that special outside of swift sparrow.
• Azura- Could stand to drop so we also get another dancer in the normal 4-3 star pool
• Ephraim- He's good, but has lost some of his luster. Could stand a drop.
• Saber- Seriously
• Hinoka- If it wasn't for the goad fliers, she'd be 4*s.
• Olwen- Why is she 5* locked? She's weaker than Rein.
• Lute- Again, there's not much that special about her that warrants a 5* exclusivity.
• One of Julia/Deidre- Look they're both naga users, it's about time we get ONE of them to 4*s so we can get around Nowi easier.
• Sonya- Fucking hell why is she still 5* exclusive.
• Faye- I can see why the FS bow is 5* locked, but faye herself is not that good.
• Jaffar- He's fun to use and is good fodder, but does he warrant being locked to 5*s?
• Elisse- Could stand to drop. Probably not going to happen. We have Veronica as a similar combat oriented staffer in the 5* pool now, so she might stand to drop and become another hero of the people as Soleil and Ares are.
• Nanna- Needs to be removed since she's not really all that worthwhile as a 5* pool member.
• Mist- Fucking hell. Moeblob needs to drop.

[bottlegnomes]

37 minutes ago, Joe Cool said:

Leo- He's not that good any more.

Was he ever?

@Hilda That sounds amazing. I was curious and looked and 1 HP vengeance Karel does indeed outperform moonbow Karel, and by a decent bit, though as you said not as consistent. I can't even imagine what kind of damage output yours is hitting :D

[XRay]

35 minutes ago, Joe Cool said:

yo

they're like the best selling ones that everyone wants. 

I. Hate. Disgusting. 5*. Melee. Crap. Period.

I do not want 5* melee trash to stink up my Barracks. Melee armor units are the fucking worst, but at least they serve a purpose for increasing my score in Arena Assault. My Barracks is already filthy as it is with loads of Chroms, Ryomas, Sigurds, Ephraims, Ravens, Hawkeyes, etc. from last year, and I still need to build and merge some of them open up some space.

If Ayra and Ares were ranged units throwing their swords at enemies, then sure, I would be happy to have them. They are not, so they should kiss and lick my behind clean for not kicking them out, but they cannot do that either.

If PVP was based solely on merit instead of stupid shit like BST, SP costs, and bonus kills, melee units would be the gross floating crap in the sewer 20 feet underground below the bottom of the barrel.

[Tybrosion]

6 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

Was he ever?

No, not really I say as I slowly die from this painful truth. It was just that he was the only red tome cav for nearly a year, which I suppose made him more valuable than he actually is to some players.

[Garlyle]

16 minutes ago, XRay said:

I do not want 5* melee trash to stink up my Barracks. Melee armor units are the fucking worst, but at least they serve a purpose for increasing my score in Arena Assault. My Barracks is already filthy as it is with loads of Chroms, Ryomas, Sigurds, Ephraims, Ravens, Hawkeyes, etc. from last year, and I still need to build and merge some of them open up some space.

Granted a lot of the sword, lance, axe users are already mentioned in this topic, so you are not alone in that. Most of the 5* armor units are probably staying as 5* units, the skills that can be inherited from them could be game changing. Sigurd would be a big surprise if he gets demoted, he is a character most people want, his skills are 5* available only, and probably the only red unit who can stand up against Reinhardt. I'm still about to test Chrom, because he looks promising (yet you are not the first who mentioned him), but he has a Chill skill, which are still rare to find; putting that skill into 3*-4* would be a big change in the game for IS.

[XRay]

3 minutes ago, Garlyle said:

I'm still about to test Chrom, because he looks promising (yet you are not the first who mentioned him), but he has a Chill skill, which are still rare to find; putting that skill into 3*-4* would be a big change in the game for IS.

I am talking about the original good-for-nothing-beside-Aether Chrom. TBK!Chrom got Chill Def and that is cool I guess. It will be great with LA!Roy and ASS!Linde once Brave Dagger is out.

[Alkaid]

7 hours ago, Humanoid said:

I'd outright abolish the 4-5* category. If you're demoted, you're 3-4*. If you're available at 5*, you're a 5* exclusive.

Good lord, this. No pity breaker is worse than a non-5* exclusive 5*.

IS is kind of all over the place with how they seem to value what should be 5* or not, so it's tough to say who could drop from being 5* exclusive. I do hope some like Mist and Olwen can get booted though, since they're no fun for anyone to pull unless you're a rare fan of theirs.(and if you are, you'd still rather they be lower rarity to get them easier)

[Ice Dragon]

2 hours ago, XRay said:

If something as stupid as the AI can be made a threat with ranged units, that just highlights how powerful having greater reach and attack range is and why melee units needed a BST boost.

No, that just means the AI is too incompetent to use melee units as well as ranged units. It means the competence requirement to use ranged units is lower than the requirement to use melee units and has no bearing on how good melee or ranged units are in a competent player's hands.

If I remember my days of StarCraft: Brood War correctly, Zerg is the strongest faction in the game, but is less often played competitively because it requires far more skill and execution to do so. The original BlazBlue (no idea about its sequels) also had a similar situation with Carl, who had absurdly strong match-ups against a large portion of the cast, but was also extremely difficult to use because you're controlling two different characters at the same time.

[XRay]

19 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

No, that just means the AI is too incompetent to use melee units as well as ranged units. It means the competence requirement to use ranged units is lower than the requirement to use melee units and has no bearing on how good melee or ranged units are in a competent player's hands.

Assuming both have the same ceiling, the floor of ranged units are still higher than melee units. Ease of use, more forgiving of mistakes, low stress, etc. are all factors in favor of ranged units. They are not go to matter in perfect play, but most players cannot do perfect play all the time. If it were not for melee units being babied with scoring, few players would subject themselves to the stress of doing Arena runs every week with melee units if they can blast everything with Firesweep safely, unless they want to challenge themselves or something.

Edited August 23, 2018 by XRay

[Astellius]

I think the following should be removed from the 5* pool:

Red:  Saber, Gray, Eldigan, Karel, Luke, Katarina, & Morgan

Blue:  Morgan, Olwen, Tailtiu, L'Arachel, Shigure, & Shiro

Green:  Sonya, & Rhajat

Colorless:  Mist, & Faye

I definitely feel that red is the most bloated pool. I'm pretty okay with the Green & Colorless pool. I'm fine with some characters, like Lyn & Ike, being exclusive to the 5* pool, based on their popularity and prominence in their games. But Luke? Saber? Those are odd choices for 5* exclusives.

Also, this posted before I was done writing it, for some reason.

Edited August 23, 2018 by Astellius

[Shiki]

Red:
- Gray
- Saber
- Luke
- (Katarina)
- Eldigan
- (Lene)
- Sanaki
- Leo

Blue:
- Olwen
- Sumia
- (Morgan)
- Hinoka
- Shiro

Green:
- Sonya
- Kana
- Rhajat

Colorless:
- Faye
- Jaffar
- Mist

The rest can stay as it is.
Pretty much I have a beef with everything that has inheritable weapons or passives that are overdue to be available (like Distant Def, Hone Fliers or Panic Ploy). Both things should be available for all units since there are plenty of units that do not have exclusive skills to make them stand out.
Some of the other choices are units that are simpy not good anymore (like Luke or Saber).

Edited August 24, 2018 by The Priest