XRay Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 1 minute ago, Ice Dragon said: All the better reason to leave him in, then. Now that is plain sadistic. It is one thing to educate players with Surtr in PvP since they can learn from their failures, but I do not see how forcing people to grind manually accomplishes anything. 6 minutes ago, Yexin said: doesn't fix anything imo, we have many ways to counter surtr while playing PvE the problem is arena: they can't nerf nor ban him, and that's what i call a "serious problem" We have ways to counter him in PvP too. For Arena, at least for Player Phase teams, nuking him with Blade tomes or Firesweeping him to death are both pretty easy ways of dealing with him. He is a nonissue in Arena Assault since you can just build a few anti armor counters. In Grand Conquest, I run a dragon team so he is no big deal. 5 minutes ago, Hilda said: If he only had 175 BST instead of 180 and more SPD and much much much less RES he would be easier to deal with instead of haveing to use Armor Smasher or a Triangle Adept + Axe Breaker... For Aether Raids, we have 5 slots on each team and we get 5 teams to choose from. We just basically pick counters against the enemy like in Arena Assault, so I do not think it is too bad. He is a pain in the ass when you are climbing tiers since you are pretty much forced to run a specific team set up for maximizing Lift, but on the off weeks or once you reach Tier 21, Surtr is pretty easy to deal with when you can pick counters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasori Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 I won't miss seeing Sutr. He can be pretty easy to deal with, but he's one of those units thats almost immune to everything that is not his counter. I remember that one of my teams in the christmas TT was just completely walled by Sutr. Unable to pierce his defenses in PP and unable to bait him in EP. That was not my best team of course, but before Sutr those teams never had to worry about an instant game over because of one unit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azuris Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 I'm happy with that. He was such a nuisance while doing auto battles in TT and while I didn't have problem beating him while playing myself, some newer players might have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Dragon Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 24 minutes ago, XRay said: Now that is plain sadistic. It is one thing to educate players with Surtr in PvP since they can learn from their failures, but I do not see how forcing people to grind manually accomplishes anything. I grind manually and don't have any issues with doing so despite not having a lot of free time. I no longer run Grand Conquest on auto-battle until I know I have enough stamina restores to take imperfect runs (and Surtr will still appear there anyways), and Tempest Trials has always been fully manual for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoblongoo Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 (edited) Sutr's good. Hes not unmanagable. Hes been out for a while and his effects on the meta are well known. So far they've only produced one "problem unit" that stikes me as absolutely game-breaking, and that I really think needs to be nerfed. ^^^ I don't use the term "broken" lightly. [Prayer Wheel] + [Gray Waves] is broken. Edited January 23, 2019 by Shoblongoo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRay Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 2 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said: I grind manually and don't have any issues with doing so despite not having a lot of free time. I mean, yeah, I do my daily triple runs on manual and that is about all I do in the mode, but some players want to rank high and get more Feathers, so I think making it less annoying for those players is a good idea. 4 minutes ago, Shoblongoo said: I don't use the term "broken" lightly. Gray Wave is broken. I think the skill has grown on me a little. It was super frustrating in Arena Assault at first, but then I just make sure to use my green mages more conservatively so I do not run out and bait her with them when she appears, and she has not been much trouble since. For Arena, I am running my best team, so VS!Azura is not a huge threat when I am also cancer myself. For Aether Raids this week, I feel fully confident in my Distant Counter Sharena to handle any buffs thrown at her. Not sure about next week though. Maybe I will try to get a Nailah or something or just stick with Anna. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Dragon Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 1 minute ago, XRay said: but some players want to rank high and get more Feathers, so I think making it less annoying for those players is a good idea. Back in my day, we had to walk to school uphill both ways through 10 feet of snow. I think making people work for their ranking is not a bad thing. I personally do not have a high opinion of the auto-battle feature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 Surtr was never too big of a deal for me, but I do appreciate this. 2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said: I no longer run Grand Conquest on auto-battle until I know I have enough stamina restores to take imperfect runs What's your goal? I've been auto battling all my GC runs since the second one at the lunatic level (one higher if cavalry is boosted), only sometimes getting perfect runs, and I always get to tier 25. Hell, I finished the current GC about 20 hours ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Dragon Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 3 minutes ago, Florete said: What's your goal? I've been auto battling all my GC runs since the second one at the lunatic level (one higher if cavalry is boosted), only sometimes getting perfect runs, and I always get to tier 25. Hell, I finished the current GC about 20 hours ago. I usually don't have the time (because I deprioritize Grand Conquest below most other things) to use all of the free lances from the hourly regen, so I usually finish reaching Tier 25 with only 1 or 2 restores to spare at the end. I also haven't updated my Rival Domains teams in months, meaning I still have a lot of unbuilt units padding up some of the later slots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troykv Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said: I grind manually and don't have any issues with doing so despite not having a lot of free time. I no longer run Grand Conquest on auto-battle until I know I have enough stamina restores to take imperfect runs (and Surtr will still appear there anyways), and Tempest Trials has always been fully manual for me. The only thing I auto-battle is Normal-Rival Domains I also manually grind Tempest Trials xD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Dragon Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 2 minutes ago, Troykv said: The only thing I auto-battle is Normal-Rival Domains I also manually grind Tempest Trials xD. I think I only auto-battle Rival Domains for cavalry and fliers. Infantry are way too Reposition-happy, which is infuriating to watch, and armors are extremely likely to get stranded in the middle of nowhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yexin Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, XRay said: We have ways to counter him in PvP too. For Arena, at least for Player Phase teams, nuking him with Blade tomes or Firesweeping him to death are both pretty easy ways of dealing with him. i have a +10 paula, i have no problem with surtr the problem comes when i must weaken him first and then kill him with the bonus unit, which is generally +1, +2 at most, since i'm not a whale add the fact that most arena-viable blue units cannot even deal him 5x2 damage, and here's your frustration-flavored cocktail Edited January 23, 2019 by Yexin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hilda Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 4 hours ago, XRay said: Now that is plain sadistic. It is one thing to educate players with Surtr in PvP since they can learn from their failures, but I do not see how forcing people to grind manually accomplishes anything. We have ways to counter him in PvP too. For Arena, at least for Player Phase teams, nuking him with Blade tomes or Firesweeping him to death are both pretty easy ways of dealing with him. He is a nonissue in Arena Assault since you can just build a few anti armor counters. In Grand Conquest, I run a dragon team so he is no big deal. For Aether Raids, we have 5 slots on each team and we get 5 teams to choose from. We just basically pick counters against the enemy like in Arena Assault, so I do not think it is too bad. He is a pain in the ass when you are climbing tiers since you are pretty much forced to run a specific team set up for maximizing Lift, but on the off weeks or once you reach Tier 21, Surtr is pretty easy to deal with when you can pick counters. The problem isnt in player phase (well ecxept if you need to get a bonus kill with a blue unit, good luck on that one). The problem is when your Defense Team suicides on Surtr because... dumb. And as you said in Light season the real problem arises because not even mages can scratch his back unless you run a Red Triangle adept and Axe breaker or an Armor Smasher or a Bladetome/Bladesword unit that is fully buffed up, which is still pretty dumb because AI! The unit is dumb and the unit should have never been green lit. My Defense losses in AR from last light season and this weeks light season are all because of Surtr... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRay Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 1 hour ago, Yexin said: the problem comes when i must weaken him first and then kill him with the bonus unit, which is generally +1, +2 at most, since i'm not a whale add the fact that most arena-viable blue units cannot even deal him 5x2 damage, and here's your frustration-flavored cocktail I chip his HP down with Firesweep Bow-Poison Strike-Poison Strike and let my Anna and Sharena charge its Aether with other units first. Even if Sharena cannot kill him, it is only one unit. I score around 3,700, so I am able to stay in Tier 20 or bounce between Tier 19 and Tier 20 depending on how zealous other players are with their scores for the week. 23 minutes ago, Hilda said: The problem is when your Defense Team suicides on Surtr because... dumb. Losing only matters for the first challenger of the day. I run a cancer team set up and the first challenger of the day usually loses two or three units, so how my defense team performs after does not really matter. Even with defense losses, it does not impact progression that much in my opinion. Getting into Tier 18 does not require any Lift boosters outside of a bonus unit and it should be achievable with full losses and imperfect play. With a Lift maximizing team, Tier 19 and Tier 20 should not be a problem either. Not sure about Tier 21 since I am not there yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenomata Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 Funny I see this topic AFTER summoning Surtr randomly. Anyways, I never really had a problem dealing with Surtr. Even when he had Distant Counter in the Arena, I was usually able to just weaken him steadily, or more often than not have him break himself on my bulky Red. What he does to nearby enemies is mean, but he's still a Green unit. So imagine just how easy a time I have against him in normal game scenarios... he's not that bad for me, but I can imagine him posing a major problem to others who aren't quite as loaded down as I am with counters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zapp Branniglenn Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 Oh good. Now they can have Final Maps of TT with armor units again. Surtr would have been okay if it weren't for those damned seasonal banners providing the majority of armor units in the game, and those can't appear in the random encounter pool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewyn Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 Well finally getting him as one of the pity breakers on the beast banner, I can say now from the side of using him yeah wow he is literally an I win button. Can smash entire teams, he is a pain in the highest difficulty grand conquest too. Ever see him on the fort or defense tile, +10 and then having all his stats buffed? Good luck. Anyways good change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure the Scale Tipper Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 Now can we get any Farfetched Heroes in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rezzy Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 (edited) 9 hours ago, Shoblongoo said: Sutr's good. Hes not unmanagable. Hes been out for a while and his effects on the meta are well known. So far they've only produced one "problem unit" that stikes me as absolutely game-breaking, and that I really think needs to be nerfed. ^^^ I don't use the term "broken" lightly. [Prayer Wheel] + [Gray Waves] is broken. Azura became even more broken with +5 to all stats in addition to +1 move when danced. For Surtr, Training Tower, I never really minded, since that mode is mostly meaningless apart from the monthly quests, and training when nothing else is available. TT was annoying, but usually not too bad, unless autobattling. Grand Conquests is where he's the biggest pain, since he'll sit on a defense tile and completely wall my team, potentially, especially is on the infantry team round. I'd really like to see him removed from Aether Raids and Arena. Seeing him on every other team gets old. EDIT: Surtr is still in Grand Conquests. Just ran into him. Edited January 24, 2019 by Rezzy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewyn Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 Oh yeah Surtr is still in Grand Conquests, the highest difficulty seems to have him often, as well as Veronica and Legendary Azura super annoying. They can't remove Surtr from arena or Aether raids cause those are 'competitive' modes and a lot of people spent orbs to get him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redlight Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 Grand Conquest pits you against players' units. He won't appear in RD though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bethany81707 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 11 minutes ago, redlight said: Grand Conquest pits you against players' units. He won't appear in RD though I didn't want to bring it up, because I haven't followed GC in so long that they genuinely could have changed the rules on me, but I was getting confused by everyone suggesting otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoblongoo Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 (edited) 13 hours ago, Rezzy said: Grand Conquests is where he's the biggest pain, since he'll sit on a defense tile and completely wall my team, potentially, especially is on the infantry team round. Yeah Grand Conquest is where facing Surtr is the worst--I've noticed that too. There's lots of super tanky units that become hard to dislodge if they park themselves on a defensive tile, but what makes Surtr particularly brutal is that if you just ignore him and go for other units you get punished with the [20 Damage AoE to all enemies within 2 spaces] passive. ...Which when you're trying to advance on a particular fort and Surtr is sitting there behind a line of enemies can stall out your advance pretty hard. ________ Something else I've noticed with the release of the new banners is that Tibarn makes for a particularly effective Surtr counter. (the auto-doubling effect on Hawk King's Claws bypasses Wary Fighter) There is no scenario where Surtr likes getting doubled by Tibarn. Edited January 24, 2019 by Shoblongoo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hilda Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 i find Azura easier to deal with because she makes it much much more easier to bait and seperate units with the 3 movement buff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roflolxp54 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 Good QoL change even though units being removed from the random encounter pool is nothing new. Dancers used to be in the random encounter pool only to become issues in the first 2 TT events (the first one was because runs can be ruined if the player didn't know how the AI would react and the 2nd was because due to melee infantry being able to spawn on the final battle map, it was very possible for the boss Celica to score an early kill on turn 1 due to not having an assist skill and being in range of the dancer should one spawn). CYL units used to appear in one TT event as well but they later got removed from the random pool. This also included Farfetched Heroes, subsequent CYL units, and Brave Redux. I also remember the days when it was entirely possible for AI named units to spawn with DC and such in Training Tower (ie. DC Oboro). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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