Where does Byleth place on the canon ranking tier list of Lords?

[Deathcon]

4 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Divine Pulse only gives Byleth two tries to beat Ike. If he fails the second time, then the failure is guaranteed. Granted; it's one more try than Ike would have, but still. 

The Sword of the Creator definitely gives Byleth more power than Ike, but it's very hard to tell what Byleth's skill level is. We get a clear sense of Ike's level of skill with a blade thanks to it being tied to his character arc. By contrast, we don't even know how Byleth compares to Jeralt: his own dad who taught him how to fight. 

He gets way more than two tries, as shown in gameplay, we are only showed two in cutscene because, like in gameplay, taking the same action with no change inbetween will cause no change. Since Thales blocked his attack he will always block his attack this is again told by Sothis after Jeralt's death saying that it was fate and unchangablle much like in gameply. Too bad he didn't have anyone else who could attack before he/she.

Considering Death Knight was compared to Jeralt, I think Byleth surpasses him by endgame. Plus, he is able to kill Nemesis in VW with slight help from Claude who I think Nemesis is both stronger than Jeralt and the BK.

Now back to Byleth, he doesn't have the above problem due to having more than the Sword of the Creator he also has light magic(maybe reason?), and brawling.  This is canon due to the benefits of the Enlightened One class, so if one fails he can pick another option and try again. He is also smarter than Ike as showed in the fact he is a teacher and strategist while Ike has Soren or someone else to do it for him.

10 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

We do know he's worse at swordfighting than Lucina is at the start of their respective games at least. But we don't know how much they both improve by in that time.

While I don't know how strong Lucina is by endgame I can say that Byleth is at least near level in swordmanship to Nemesis, able to go blow to blow for at least a solid minute before the final blow. While I don't doubt Lucina being a great swordswoman but I feel Byleth trumps her by the end of their respective games. Especially since we don't get that many feats, beside in maybe supports, after her intro.

[Flere210]

Nemesis is like, the only final villain that we see lose a fair 1 vs 1 fight on screen. His fight againist Seiros does not give the impression of an unstoppable monster. And seiros herself does not even need to bring her A game to the fight.

[Timlugia]

On 1/18/2020 at 7:32 AM, Flere210 said:

 

Ike beating the Black Knight does not mean much if the BK best feats is veating Greil, whose best feats are hype and defeating featless people. A better feat is that Kurthnaga destroyed a castle, and we know for sure that Ike can beat him, meaning he is at least at Large building level.

I actually wonder how this would work in logic

Like Ike isn't invincible, how could he possible survive a hit that would demolish a castle?

Realistically, Ike could not get hit by Kurthnaga or it would be over for him.

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I believe that Byleth is on the upper end of lords, top 5 at least.

What he was going for him is:

• Years of experience being a mercenary.
• Sword of the Creator which even in it's weaken state is on par with the other crest weapons. Being able to transform into a whip is a added bonus.
• the major Crest of Flames one of the more helpful crests to have
• Divine Pulse even if the rules about it are vague.
• Being fused to Sothis enhances his abilities by a significant amount. 

Major feats:

• Defeated Nemesis with some help Claude
• Able to cut through space time
• Took down Rhea in her Immaculate one form with the combined effort of Edelgard.
• Fell down a chasm and lived

Even though he been caught off guard by other forces. In a straight up fight the dude is rather difficult to take down.

I think it's even more impressive in Silver Snow, where Byleth fought against an even stronger Rhea (evident both by dialogue and game stats) without help from another lord.

Byleth's another strength is immortality in all non-CF routes. Both Seteth and Rhea hinted that Byleth is immortal at this point. They would only grow stronger as time pass through training and experience.

Edited January 30, 2020 by Timlugia

[Flere210]

7 minutes ago, Timlugia said:

I actually wonder how this would work in logic

Like Ike isn't invincible, how could he possible survive a hit that would demolish a castle?

Realistically, Ike could not get hit by Kurthnaga or it would be over for him.

This is the age old problem of HP system. It's never clear whatever the character can actually take the hit or they are an abstraction to something else. 

I'd say that tanking Kurth breath is way more realistic than killing a goddes that Dr. Stoned a continent in an instant.

Most fire emblem lords(and JRPG characters in general) make no sense if you don't assume they are way beyond the limits of humanity. 

[Icelerate]

Considering Kurthnaga's breath scared away the laguz alliance who were ready to finish off Daein, I'd say it is unreasonable to assume they can tank a direct hit of his breath. 

[Etrurian emperor]

Kurth does seem to have a lot of power but I don't think he'd be all that difficult to defeat. He has a pretty nasty blood phobia so any wound he deals at an opponent likely is going to distress Kurth a whole lot more than the person he wounded. Plus when comparing his size with that of other dragons he's pretty much a baby dragon. Ena is likely the stronger dragon and she could be beaten. 

[Flere210]

5 hours ago, Icelerate said:

Considering Kurthnaga's breath scared away the laguz alliance who were ready to finish off Daein, I'd say it is unreasonable to assume they can tank a direct hit of his breath. 

The same people went on to fight an even stronger dragon leading an army of dragons, so imo it was more a case of "we can't win whitout heavy losses" rather then "we can't win period".

[Acacia Sgt]

4 hours ago, Flere210 said:

The same people went on to fight an even stronger dragon leading an army of dragons, so imo it was more a case of "we can't win whitout heavy losses" rather then "we can't win period".

By that point they were already blessed/empowered by Yune, though.

[Ardicos]

I don't think Byleth even counts as a lord, sure he's the main character, but that doesn't necessarily mean lord, that's the House Leaders

[Jotari]

40 minutes ago, Ren Takeru said:

I don't think Byleth even counts as a lord, sure he's the main character, but that doesn't necessarily mean lord, that's the House Leaders

Well, no one's forcing you to count him/her. But generally speaking in Fire Emblem Lord = Protagonist. Alm and Celica never have the lord class or any variation thereof, but no one ever disputes the fact that they're lords. Byleth also has exclusive focus on Silver Snow. If anyone wants to discuss Edelgard, Dimitri and Claude's tier placement I wouldn't consider it off topic to discuss it here.

[Whisky]

Hey, it's been awhile. I've been busy but I'll respond now.

 

On 1/26/2020 at 12:53 PM, vanguard333 said:

True. I will agree to that. I will just point out two caveats: beating Duma comes after the power-up from the wizard, and Alm can only do it because he has the Falchion; much like Marth, and the dragon Marth went up against wasn't rotting. As I established before, the plot of Shadow Dragon almost-explicitly indicates that Marth doesn't grow stronger over the course of the game; just more used to war. But, Duma was fed a bunch of souls and was a divine dragon, which could balance out the whole rotting vs relatively fresh...

It's a toss-up. How much of it is Alm, and how much of it is him having the sword that makes slaying Duma a lot more possible... I don't know; it's hard to tell. I give him credit that it's a feat he achieves, and one that he would not have been able to do at the beginning. But the falchion creates such a potentially huge caveat when you think about it...

There are many unknowns when comparing characters between different games. How much of it is Alm and how much is the Falchion? I think it's both. We know that Alm wouldn't be able to defeat Duma without that Falchion, but I also don't think a regular average soldier could beat Duma with the Falchion either, even ignoring that only royalty are able to wield. Would another strong character be able to beat Duma with the Falchion if they could wield it? Someone like Camus or Sabre? I would say that they could, but that doesn't mean that Alm isn't strong, all of those characters are strong.

 

On 1/26/2020 at 12:53 PM, vanguard333 said:

Side Note: personally, I think it would've been far more thematically appropriate if Alm pointed out the core problem with Rudolph's plan (it, like all plans stemming from Duma's philosophy, focuses solely on individual power) and he rejects that philosophy in favour of strength through working-together as a moment of character growth, and then, when it came to Duma, it took both Alm and Celica working together: Celica striking a critical blow and Alm finishing Duma off, like how it takes both Eowyn and Merry to defeat the Witch-King in Return of the King. 

I definitely agree that that would have been better thematically.

 

On 1/26/2020 at 12:53 PM, vanguard333 said:

Anyway.

Perhaps. I guess I just extend gameplay and story segregation to anything in gameplay that doesn't correlate to story and vice-versa; for example: do any of us believe that every iron axe breaks after exactly 40 swings of it? I admit that that is a probably a bit too broad of a definition; still, I haven't found any other word for the more broad version. 

I think it depends on each specific situation. Every situation needs to be looked at differently. I think that we can logically conclude that people grow stronger and more skilled as they gain experience in combat, and the story does not usually contradict that. Weapons do get worn down over time and would need to be maintained. If you strike armor with a blade a few dozen times, I imagine the weapon would be pretty worn out.

I don't think that we can look at stats and make exact calculations in game to make story conclusions, but I do think that higher stats on a character generally represent that character being stronger, unless specifically contradicted by the story, which is very rare, if it happens at all. I appreciate when games have good gameplay/story integration.

 

On 1/26/2020 at 12:53 PM, vanguard333 said:

See what I typed above for the thing about Alm. 

You're welcome.

For the epilogue thing, I would say that that would indicate characters growing, but the statement that the characters have grown would be the evidence in that scenario, would it not?

I think it would be both. The statement confirms that they grew stronger, and we got to experience first hand what the statement is talking about in practice. There are some epilogues that don't specifically state that the character has gotten stronger but don't contradict them growing stronger either. I think that we can basically assume that they have grown stronger. We see them fighting alongside the other characters that have grown stronger,  throughout the whole game. I don't think we can ignore that and just say "nope, they shouldn't be able to do the things that we see them do". Also as I've said a few times, you have a young inexperienced guy go through an adventure, fighting in a war, and gaining experience. I think we can logically conclude that will have grown.

On 1/26/2020 at 12:53 PM, vanguard333 said:

Huh; that is an interesting way to look at that. Yes; characters' base stats and growths do tend to reflect their level of power (see Rhys' 5% strength growth for details). I was talking about the act of levelling up specifically, but you are right about that with character bases and growths. 

I think their gameplay reflects those stats though. Leveling up applies the growths. It just doesn't make sense to me that characters wouldn't grow stronger throughout the game. We see it happen first hand throughout the game through leveling up, and the story very rarely contradicts that. I actually hate gameplay/story segregation more than most people seem to, and I appreciated seeing that Dimitri was stated to be stronger in the support, which reflects their actual stats in game, ignoring RNG, and favoritism. Rhys is a good example, and so is Jeigan. He is an experienced veteran. He is better in combat than the young inexperienced knights that haven't seen any combat, but he is old rusty. Well past is prime. I think his stats reflect that well.

On 1/26/2020 at 12:53 PM, vanguard333 said:

I guess it depends on what HP is supposed to represent. It's always described as representing the health of the unit, and I always interpreted that to mean stuff like whether or not they're bleeding or have been hit in the head or stuff like that, since, if exhaustion did deplete HP, late-game chapters would be all the more grueling. This interpretation is supported in Shadows of Valentia by HP and Fatigue be two different things. 

I have no idea how Skills are meant to work in the story. We see how they work in the game so we can try to infer some sort of similar way of it working in the story. The thing is, these are only video games. The characters we are analyzing are video game characters. The gameplay isn't just a adaptation of the story of the character's journeys. The gameplay is the character's journeys. That's why I put so much importance on what we see happen in the game. Because that is the source material for these characters. If there is a FE anime or book or movie or whatever, I would consider the movie version of Ike or Alm different versions of the characters than the video game versions. I wouldn't consider the movie versions the 'canon' versions.

The main reason I brought up Scenscale in the first place, was to show that Alm is learning new skills, which is a sign of growth.

On 1/26/2020 at 12:53 PM, vanguard333 said:

Ah; it's been a while since I played that game. I'll see if I can find it, but it'll have to be a quick search as I have tests to study for...

Okay; I didn't find one during my (quick and incomplete) search of Shadow Dragon's script, but I did find this interesting bit of dialogue from the sequel game: 

Jagen: This is the path depicted in the Anri Saga. The first obstacle in Anri's Way: The Desert of Death. With its scorching sun, raging sandstorm, savage clansmen of the sands and wyverns that soar and dominate the skies. As the city of illusion shimmers in the distance, we can only stand and gaze... Or so the legend has it.

Marth: So Anri came through here as well. And by himself, too...

Jagen: That's right. Your ancestor and Altea's founder, King Anri... To save Princess Artemis, he set out on a journey to seek the divine sword Falchion.

Marth: King Anri was strong. I wouldn't be able to cross through here alone. I'm truly grateful to those who offered to accompany me through this desert.

Chris: You are strong, sire. Everyone wants to be with you. Wherever you go, they will follow. That's what I believe. That's something you have that King Anri never did.

Marth: Thank you. I don't have Anri's power. But I have all of you. Wonderful companions like you, Chris. That's why I won't give up. Let's go, Chris.

It's not exactly what I was talking about, but it's interesting food for thought. 

That's interesting. So it's basically stated that King Anri is stronger than Marth, but that Marth seems to have more charisma or better leadership or something. That doesn't make Marth weak. That just makes King Anri stronger. I wonder if King Anri is canonically one of the strongest characters in the FE series?

On 1/26/2020 at 12:53 PM, vanguard333 said:

See above for what I have to say about Alm vs Duma. 

With Ike, it is made painfully clear in much of the dialogue throughout Path of Radiance that he grows stronger and more skilled; he is repeatedly shown sparring with new allies, working to get stronger, getting help from other swordsmen (most notably Stefan), etc. It's conveyed so thoroughly (because of how strongly tied it is to his character arc) that I don't expect other FE games to go that far, even though, purely from a writing standpoint, it would help if more recent FE games gave a better sense of power-escalation and power scaling. 

I agree that it is better portrayed and written for Ike in POR. I think it would be better if other games did things more like POR. I don't think that that means that characters in other games don't grow stronger though, I just don't think the writers of the other games portray it as well.

On 1/26/2020 at 12:53 PM, vanguard333 said:

I agree that Alm surpassing Mycen would be a clear statement of growth. It doesn't happen, but if it did happen, it would've helped.

Oh. I wasn't sure what Mycen says when he meets Alm again after so long. Do you think that we can compare their stats? The stats seem to sometimes do a great job of reflecting the characters canon strength like with Jeigan I think that your other characters surpassing Jeigan's stats is a reflection of them surpassing him in the story. Does that work for Sir Mycen?

On 1/26/2020 at 12:53 PM, vanguard333 said:

It's okay. I figured that you weren't trying to be rude. 

That it is; it is rather difficult. For me, I try to find things that they share, and I use that to get an approximation. For instance, when I was comparing Ike to Byleth, I pointed out that both were raised by fathers that were once the greatest fighter in their respective continent; using Jeralt and Greil as an approximation helps. The difference is that Ike is compared to his dad constantly, while Byleth's skills are never really compared to Jeralt's; making that point of comparison pretty much void. So, yeah; it is complicated.

Is Jeralt stated to be the greatest in the entire continent? He doesn't seem so impressive when he's a green unit. I think POR does way more to show and state how great of a warrior Commander Greil is. It might be a case of POR just portraying it better with better writing, but from my perspective, I feel like Greil would completely destroy Jeralt in a fight. He seems to have way more feats and accomplishments. He was one of the 4 riders of Deign, which is a country that promotes people for their strength. Jeralt is pretty much just stated to be "strong". How strong? "Strong".

On 1/26/2020 at 12:53 PM, vanguard333 said:

It depends on what you mean by "seeing characters fight dragons in game". Even dragons in FE can vary in power level and what it takes to actually be able to fight one and survive, let alone win. It also depends on the context in which the dragon is fought; stuff like, "It can beat one of us, but not all of us!", "It's pinned down! Now's our chance!", etc., make interpreting the level of achievement more complicated in different ways. 

I mean just fighting the regular manaketes or dragons that you fight throughout the game in many FE games. You can have any of your characters fight them, especially with magic, a Wrymslayer, or Dragonsbane(? the Lance in Shadow Dragon.) Some characters have an easier time and some have a harder time fighting dragons, but you do in fact fight multiple dragons througout the games as normal enemies. I don't think it would be fair or make sense to say that most characters wouldn't canonically be able to fight dragons, just based on 'dragons are strong', when we see exactly what it takes for a character to fight dragons in gameplay. Dragons are strong in gameplay but they aren't invincible, and the story does in fact support that, not contradict it. Dragons were fought by humans in lore. Dragons are definitely stated to be stronger than average humans but they are not invincible.

You can't just say 'canonically a human can't survive a dragons breath'. How strong is dragons breath? Is every attack in gameplay a direct hit? In gameplay, dragons breath is strong, probably strong enough to one shot kill an average human, but is it impossible for an average human to survive getting hit by a dragons breath? People can survive being injured and keep fighting. Injured isn't the same thing as dead. I could say that realistically, all magic should pretty much be impossible for any human to survive, but that doesn't work. This is Fire Emblem. We know that people have powers that don't exist in real life.

You also can't say 'in gameplay, characters get impaled by a lance or slashed by a sword, and in story, they shouldn't be able to survive that'. Who's to say that they can't survive that? It is possible to survive getting cut or stabbed in real life. Did the attack hit a vital? Apparently not if they're still alive. Characters could potentially continue fighting with injuries until one of the combatants are able to strike a fatal blow. 

 

 

On 1/26/2020 at 5:49 PM, Icelerate said:

Her strength is hyped by Valter despite not promoting with the bracelet or wielding the Sieglinde just yet.

" Valter:

“You there, with the girl. Tell me, would that be the wayward princess of Renais? Well, this must be my lucky day. You’re a dead man. The wench goes with me.” "

On 1/26/2020 at 5:49 PM, Icelerate said:

Which is made more impressive by the fact that both the bracelet and the Sieglinde contain immense power so imagine how strong Eirika is afterwards when even before she's on the same level as Valter. 

Did you use the wrong quote from Valter? That dialogue doesn't say anything about Erika's strength. Valter doesn't say anything about Erika being a match for him in that dialogue.

[vanguard333]

@Whisky Ah; it's been a while since I had this discussion; at least two tests and an assignment have gone by since then. I can barely remember what I was arguing. I think I'll just clarify a few things and more-or-less start fresh. 

 

1 hour ago, Whisky said:

That's interesting. So it's basically stated that King Anri is stronger than Marth, but that Marth seems to have more charisma or better leadership or something. That doesn't make Marth weak. That just makes King Anri stronger. I wonder if King Anri is canonically one of the strongest characters in the FE series?

Oh; I agree that it just means that Anri's stronger than Marth. That's the reason I said that I just found it interesting. Yeah; it would be extremely difficult to judge Anri's level of power, as all we have to go by are things he supposedly did 100 years ago; things that could easily be exaggerations or distortions of the truth. 

If Anri really is that powerful, he's probably like Ike: another badass normal (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BadassNormal) who got through that stuff through raw determination, hard work, and skill. That, or he drank some of Gotoh's blood and became a superhuman, but that requires more assumptions. 

1 hour ago, Whisky said:

I definitely agree that that would have been better thematically.

Thanks. 

1 hour ago, Whisky said:

I agree that it is better portrayed and written for Ike in POR. I think it would be better if other games did things more like POR. I don't think that that means that characters in other games don't grow stronger though, I just don't think the writers of the other games portray it as well.

I think this is more or less what I was trying to get at; Ike's growth is all the more clear and better-handled.

1 hour ago, Whisky said:

Is Jeralt stated to be the greatest in the entire continent? He doesn't seem so impressive when he's a green unit. I think POR does way more to show and state how great of a warrior Commander Greil is. It might be a case of POR just portraying it better with better writing, but from my perspective, I feel like Greil would completely destroy Jeralt in a fight. He seems to have way more feats and accomplishments. He was one of the 4 riders of Deign, which is a country that promotes people for their strength. Jeralt is pretty much just stated to be "strong". How strong? "Strong".

I'm not sure about the absolute best (though I'm nearly done Crimson Flower and will move on to Golden Deer next, so I'll be playing through Part 1 and be able to double-check) but I am certain that he's considered to be by far the greatest knight (in terms of prowess) that the Knights of Seiros have ever had and I'm pretty sure that he's well-regarded as at least one of the best. 

Yes, I agree that Greil would probably beat Jeralt, and that's even factoring in Jeralt's Major Crest and who knows how many decades of combat experience. And I do think the writing in both games has something to do with it, as you said (and incidentally was one of the first points I ever made when comparing Ike to Byleth). My point is that Greil and Jeralt present a certain bar to clear in terms of skill level within each other's respective game, with Greil's probably being higher than Jeralt's, and we see Ike clear that bar; the same can't be said for Byleth. 

Also, side-note: Daein didn't promote people for their strength until Ashnard's rule. The 4 Riders were still the best of the best, but there was a degree of classism as you had to be of nobility to become a knight and rank up until Ashnard removed that restriction and made it come down to strength. 

Last thing: "I think POR does way more to show and state how great of a warrior commander Greil is" substitute Greil with Ike, and I think we have pretty much what I've been trying to say this whole time about Ike and Alm. 

[Whisky]

35 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

@Whisky Ah; it's been a while since I had this discussion; at least two tests and an assignment have gone by since then. I can barely remember what I was arguing. I think I'll just clarify a few things and more-or-less start fresh. 

 

Oh; I agree that it just means that Anri's stronger than Marth. That's the reason I said that I just found it interesting. Yeah; it would be extremely difficult to judge Anri's level of power, as all we have to go by are things he supposedly did 100 years ago; things that could easily be exaggerations or distortions of the truth. 

@vanguard333  That's true as well. It's hard to say how much of the lore is just exaggerated rumors. Like the Sword of the Creator's feat of 'cutting through a mountain'. That feat is pretty much stated as being a rumor. We don't know if that's actually true or not,

Spoiler

but we do know that Rhea made up a lot of Fodlan's history.

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If Anri really is that powerful, he's probably like Ike: another badass normal (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BadassNormal) who got through that stuff through raw determination, hard work, and skill. That, or he drank some of Gotoh's blood and became a superhuman, but that requires more assumptions. 

Most things about Anri would require a lot of assumptions. We know almost nothing about him. Same thing can be said about the Heroes of the Scouring from Binding Blade. They're all state in lore to have been incredibly strong, but we don't know really know much about them. We do know that they wielded the Divine Weapons and that they slayed dragons but that's about it.

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Thanks. 

I think this is more or less what I was trying to get at; Ike's growth is all the more clear and better-handled.

I don't disagree with that.

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I'm not sure about the absolute best (though I'm nearly done Crimson Flower and will move on to Golden Deer next, so I'll be playing through Part 1 and be able to double-check) but I am certain that he's considered to be by far the greatest knight (in terms of prowess) that the Knights of Seiros have ever had and I'm pretty sure that he's well-regarded as at least one of the best. 

I just realized that the statements about Jeralt's power might have been referencing him in his prime, and he may now be either getting older or rusty. That makes it harder to analyze how strong he was, but it also means that their might not actually be any gameplay/story segregation there after all. It would be strange otherwise for them to tell us that he's the strongest knight ever when Catherine is much stronger in gameplay and wields one of the Relic Weapons. I don't think Jeralt ever used a Relic Weapon.

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Yes, I agree that Greil would probably beat Jeralt, and that's even factoring in Jeralt's Major Crest and who knows how many decades of combat experience. And I do think the writing in both games has something to do with it, as you said (and incidentally was one of the first points I ever made when comparing Ike to Byleth). My point is that Greil and Jeralt present a certain bar to clear in terms of skill level within each other's respective game, with Greil's probably being higher than Jeralt's, and we see Ike clear that bar; the same can't be said for Byleth. 

That's true.

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Also, side-note: Daein didn't promote people for their strength until Ashnard's rule. The 4 Riders were still the best of the best, but there was a degree of classism as you had to be of nobility to become a knight and rank up until Ashnard removed that restriction and made it come down to strength.

Oh, I see. Thanks for correcting me. And Greil received his injury and left Deign before Ashnard became King? Come to think of it... Who would win; Greil vs Ashnard?

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Last thing: "I think POR does way more to show and state how great of a warrior commander Greil is" substitute Greil with Ike, and I think we have pretty much what I've been trying to say this whole time about Ike and Alm. 

That's fair. I think my only point originally was that Alm grows stronger throughout the game. For the record, I don't think Alm could be Ike.

 

 

On 1/27/2020 at 3:34 AM, Jotari said:

Not that I necessarily disagree, but Wyrmslayers were used during the scouring and taking stats into account magic being more effective than weapons against dragons seems a reasonable assumption.

@Jotari  Well as far as we see in game, Wyrmslayers seem to be quite rare. It's possible that they were used more commonly during the Scouring, and have only became rare since then. I don't know if there is any dialogue confirming one way or the other? And I agree that magic would be more effective against dragons than regular weapons. From what we see in game, Mages seem to be a relatively small portion of most armies' forces. I agree that these weapons helped humans fight dragons during the Scouring, but I don't think every soldier in the war would have had access to them. Jahn specifically cites the humans numbers as their advantage over the dragons. He says that each dragon was stronger than each human, but that the humans outnumbered them enough to force the dragons to create the Dark Dragon and start producing War Dragons. I think that Jahn's dialogue is the most information we have about what actually happens during the Scouring. Even Athos and Bramimond in FE7 say very little about it.

Edited February 12, 2020 by Whisky

[Jotari]

6 hours ago, Whisky said:

@vanguard333  That's true as well. It's hard to say how much of the lore is just exaggerated rumors. Like the Sword of the Creator's feat of 'cutting through a mountain'. That feat is pretty much stated as being a rumor. We don't know if that's actually true or not,

  Reveal hidden contents

but we do know that Rhea made up a lot of Fodlan's history.

Most things about Anri would require a lot of assumptions. We know almost nothing about him. Same thing can be said about the Heroes of the Scouring from Binding Blade. They're all state in lore to have been incredibly strong, but we don't know really know much about them. We do know that they wielded the Divine Weapons and that they slayed dragons but that's about it.

I don't disagree with that.

I just realized that the statements about Jeralt's power might have been referencing him in his prime, and he may now be either getting older or rusty. That makes it harder to analyze how strong he was, but it also means that their might not actually be any gameplay/story segregation there after all. It would be strange otherwise for them to tell us that he's the strongest knight ever when Catherine is much stronger in gameplay and wields one of the Relic Weapons. I don't think Jeralt ever used a Relic Weapon.

That's true.

Oh, I see. Thanks for correcting me. And Greil received his injury and left Deign before Ashnard became King? Come to think of it... Who would win; Greil vs Ashnard?

That's fair. I think my only point originally was that Alm grows stronger throughout the game. For the record, I don't think Alm could be Ike.

 

 

@Jotari  Well as far as we see in game, Wyrmslayers seem to be quite rare. It's possible that they were used more commonly during the Scouring, and have only became rare since then. I don't know if there is any dialogue confirming one way or the other? And I agree that magic would be more effective against dragons than regular weapons. From what we see in game, Mages seem to be a relatively small portion of most armies' forces. I agree that these weapons helped humans fight dragons during the Scouring, but I don't think every soldier in the war would have had access to them. Jahn specifically cites the humans numbers as their advantage over the dragons. He says that each dragon was stronger than each human, but that the humans outnumbered them enough to force the dragons to create the Dark Dragon and start producing War Dragons. I think that Jahn's dialogue is the most information we have about what actually happens during the Scouring. Even Athos and Bramimond in FE7 say very little about it.

I'm quite sure the dialogue when you get a wyrmslayer in the Western Isles says it's a weapon from the Scouring and specifically notes how there aren't any dragons any more. So them falling out of fashion when their primary threat has vanished seems completely natural. Yahn's comment can be interpreted any which way because it's vague as hell. Yeah, the numbers definitely are the deciding factor, but the humans were definitely using weapons of some sort. They weren't killing dragons by swarming them with their barehands I expect. Given that humans had the ability to make (non legendary) dragon effective weapons, I think sensible to assume they saw widespread use in a war against dragons. 

[Whisky]

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

I'm quite sure the dialogue when you get a wyrmslayer in the Western Isles says it's a weapon from the Scouring and specifically notes how there aren't any dragons any more. So them falling out of fashion when their primary threat has vanished seems completely natural. Yahn's comment can be interpreted any which way because it's vague as hell. Yeah, the numbers definitely are the deciding factor, but the humans were definitely using weapons of some sort. They weren't killing dragons by swarming them with their barehands I expect. Given that humans had the ability to make (non legendary) dragon effective weapons, I think sensible to assume they saw widespread use in a war against dragons. 

Um, what exactly are we disagreeing on? Yes Wyrmslayers were no doubt more common during the Scouring but do you think that every solider in the war had one? The humans were fighting dragons for their survival, to avoid being extinct, they would do whatever they had to to survive. If a soldier doesn’t have a Wyrmslayer, they don’t just get to go home.

What about Jahn’s statement is vague? It’s pretty clear actually. Humans won because they outnumbered the dragons and because they had the Divine Weapons. That can’t be interpreted any other way. What do you want him to say? Exactly how many soldiers the humans had and what weapons each of them used?

[Jotari]

52 minutes ago, Whisky said:

Um, what exactly are we disagreeing on?

Nothing. I opened this topic of conversation saying I didn't disagree.

52 minutes ago, Whisky said:

Yes Wyrmslayers were no doubt more common during the Scouring but do you think that every solider in the war had one? The humans were fighting dragons for their survival, to avoid being extinct, they would do whatever they had to to survive. If a soldier doesn’t have a Wyrmslayer, they don’t just get to go home.

No, but they probably get roasted alive without contributing a massive amount.

52 minutes ago, Whisky said:

What about Jahn’s statement is vague? It’s pretty clear actually. Humans won because they outnumbered the dragons and because they had the Divine Weapons. That can’t be interpreted any other way. What do you want him to say? Exactly how many soldiers the humans had and what weapons each of them used?

Yes.

Edited February 12, 2020 by Jotari

[vanguard333]

12 hours ago, Whisky said:

Oh, I see. Thanks for correcting me. And Greil received his injury and left Daein before Ashnard became King? Come to think of it... Who would win; Greil vs Ashnard?

Hm... We know Greil took the medallion and fled sometime after the Serenes Massacre; whether it was before or after Ashnard became king, I don't know. We do know it was before Ike or Mist were born, as they were born in Gallia. Him cutting his good arm's tendons happened after Elena's death, which was sometime after Ike and Mist were born.

Ike is only 17 in Path of Radiance. Tanith says in chapter 18 that Ashnard became king 18 years before Path of Radiance. So, the tendon-cut definitely happened after Ashnard became king, and Greil fleeing Daein happened either the same year Ashnard became king or shortly before it. I think it's heavily implied to be the former. 

As for who would win, are we talking pre-tendon-cut, or post-tendon-cut? Before, Gawain would have won; no question about it. Ashnard is very strong; more than likely somewhere near the Black Knight's level, but Gawain surpasses them both. After the tendon-cut, probably Ashnard. 

12 hours ago, Whisky said:

That's fair. I think my only point originally was that Alm grows stronger throughout the game. For the record, I don't think Alm could be Ike.

I think you and I are in agreement; Alm does grow fairly stronger, but Alm would not be able to beat Ike. 

[Whisky]

36 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Hm... We know Greil took the medallion and fled sometime after the Serenes Massacre; whether it was before or after Ashnard became king, I don't know. We do know it was before Ike or Mist were born, as they were born in Gallia. Him cutting his good arm's tendons happened after Elena's death, which was sometime after Ike and Mist were born.

Ike is only 17 in Path of Radiance. Tanith says in chapter 18 that Ashnard became king 18 years before Path of Radiance. So, the tendon-cut definitely happened after Ashnard became king, and Greil fleeing Daein happened either the same year Ashnard became king or shortly before it. I think it's heavily implied to be the former. 
 

Actually it doesn’t really matter if he left before or after Ashnard was King. It matters if he was already one of the Four Riders before Ashnard became King, which it seems like he probably was.

Quote

As for who would win, are we talking pre-tendon-cut, or post-tendon-cut? Before, Gawain would have won; no question about it. Ashnard is very strong; more than likely somewhere near the Black Knight's level, but Gawain surpasses them both. After the tendon-cut, probably Ashnard. 
 

I thought that the Black Knight was about as strong as Greil in his prime? He seemed to think he was. That’s why he challenges Greil in POR, and I thought that Ike defeating the Black Knight was a sign of him surpassing his father? Or was Greil in his prime still stronger than Ike at the end of RD?

And yes, I did mean pre tendon cut.

Quote

I think you and I are in agreement; Alm does grow fairly stronger, but Alm would not be able to beat Ike. 

 

Edited February 12, 2020 by Whisky

[vanguard333]

1 minute ago, Whisky said:

Actually it doesn’t really matter if he left before or after Ashnard was King. It matters if he was already one of the Four Riders before Ashnard became King, which it seems like he probably was.

He was. Each king picks their Four Riders, and Gawain was one of the previous king's Four Riders. 

 

2 minutes ago, Whisky said:

I thought that the Black Knight was about as strong as Greil in his prime? He seemed to think he was. That’s why he challenges Greil in POR, and I thought that Ike defeating the Black Knight was a sign of him surpassing his father? Or was Greil in his prime still stronger than Ike at the end of RD?

He isn't as strong as Greil was in his prime. He was certainly up there, but not quite at that level. When Ike beats him in RD, the Black Knight tells Ike that he (Ike) fought with the strength that Greil had in his prime, implying that Ike is either equal to Greil or finally surpassed him. 

[Whisky]

1 hour ago, vanguard333 said:

He was. Each king picks their Four Riders, and Gawain was one of the previous king's Four Riders. 

 

He isn't as strong as Greil was in his prime. He was certainly up there, but not quite at that level. When Ike beats him in RD, the Black Knight tells Ike that he (Ike) fought with the strength that Greil had in his prime, implying that Ike is either equal to Greil or finally surpassed him. 

I see. So that seems to imply that Ike at the end of RD is about equal with Gawain in his prime. We know that the Black Knight and Ashnard are both very strong, but Ike defeats the Black Knight so that makes him at slightly above the Black Knight. The Black Knight admits as much, saying that Ike has surpassed him.

The one I’m not sure about is Ashnard. I don’t think there is any dialogue comparing his strength to Ike or the Black Knight is there? I don’t think Ike could beat him 1v1 in POR. Certainly not in gameplay.

Actually, I don’t think even Tibarn can defeat Ashnard 1v1 in POR. In RD, we see Tibarn have a small clash with the Black Knight, but it is unclear who would’ve won if they continued the fight. All of the Laguz Royals are incredibly strong, especially Tibarn. In RD gameplay, Tibarn seems stronger to me then Ike but I’m not sure. Is there any dialogue comparing Ike to the Laguz Royals?

It seems that the strongest swordsmen in all of Tellius would be Ike = Greil > Black Knight, with Ashnard fitting in somewhere around there. For overall power, not just swordsman, the Laguz Royals can definitely compete along with a few other characters, like Sephiran. I think Dheginsea is probably one of the strongest characters in the whole series.

For only swordsman, how does Stefan compare to Ike?

[Interdimensional Observer]

1 hour ago, Whisky said:

The one I’m not sure about is Ashnard. I don’t think there is any dialogue comparing his strength to Ike or the Black Knight is there?

Nope. Just this tantalizing speculation.:

Petrine
The hawk king is not always at her side. Plus, as you know, the Black Knight is in possession of warp powder. If someone of his might has the ability to appear and disappear at will, it may be that he is without equal...W-with the exception of Your Majesty, of course!! I... I mean...

Ashnard
Ha ha. I will have to test that someday...But not today. It's not often that one finds a tool as useful as he is.

 

However, in RD, this is said in the Extended Script:

Spoiler

Sephiran:
“…It seems the king knew that the Black Knight was not completely loyal, yet he allowed him to remain by his side. According to Zelgius… Ashnard actually seemed to enjoy leaving a blackheart at his side, so that he would always have the feeling of his life being at risk.”

So, Ashy saw the BK as at least strong enough to possibly kill him in potential betrayal.

Edited February 12, 2020 by Interdimensional Observer

[Whisky]

5 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Nope. Just this tantalizing speculation.:

Petrine
The hawk king is not always at her side. Plus, as you know, the Black Knight is in possession of warp powder. If someone of his might has the ability to appear and disappear at will, it may be that he is without equal...W-with the exception of Your Majesty, of course!! I... I mean...

Ashnard
Ha ha. I will have to test that someday...But not today. It's not often that one finds a tool as useful as he is.

 

However, in RD, this is said in the Extended Script:

  Reveal hidden contents

Sephiran:
“…It seems the king knew that the Black Knight was not completely loyal, yet he allowed him to remain by his side. According to Zelgius… Ashnard actually seemed to enjoy leaving a blackheart at his side, so that he would always have the feeling of his life being at risk.”

So, Ashy saw the BK as at least strong enough to possibly kill him in potential betrayal.

That’s interesting. I just thought of something else too. While Ashnard is of course very strong, he doesn’t fight on his own like Greil, Ike, and the Black Knight all do. He rides a giant Wyvern in combat.

Spoiler

(A dragon actually)

No doubt, this Wyvern must increase his combat abilities right? So maybe that explains why he is so strong as a boss in POR. I mean if even Tibarn can’t beat him, that puts him at near Dheginsea levels doesn’t it? But on foot without his Wyvern he could be only as strong if not a little weaker than the Black Knight?

[vanguard333]

1 minute ago, Whisky said:

That’s interesting. I just thought of something else too. While Ashnard is of course very strong, he doesn’t fight on his own like Greil, Ike, and the Black Knight all do. He rides a giant Wyvern in combat.

  Reveal hidden contents

(A dragon actually)

No doubt, this Wyvern must increase his combat abilities right? So maybe that explains why he is so strong as a boss in POR. I mean if even Tibarn can’t beat him, that puts him at near Dheginsea levels doesn’t it? But on foot without his Wyvern he could be only as strong if not a little weaker than the Black Knight?

Probably. To be fair to him, equal or a little weaker than the Black Knight is nothing to scoff at; Tanith points out that Ashnard almost singlehandedly won many Daein-Begnion skirmishes and became famous on the battlefield before he became king. 

[Whisky]

4 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Probably. To be fair to him, equal or a little weaker than the Black Knight is nothing to scoff at; Tanith points out that Ashnard almost singlehandedly won many Daein-Begnion skirmishes and became famous on the battlefield before he became king. 

Of course. The Black Knight is very strong too, being the milestone for Ike, and being only slightly below Greil who is pretty much the strongest guy ever. I would say that the only characters in Telliius that might be any stronger than Ike, the Black Knight, Ashnard, and Greil, would be the Laguz Royals, Sephiran, and Ashera. Oh, and maybe Giffca, since he’s not technically a Laguz Royal but he’s still just as strong.

[Icelerate]

On 2/11/2020 at 7:53 PM, Whisky said:

" Valter:

“You there, with the girl. Tell me, would that be the wayward princess of Renais? Well, this must be my lucky day. You’re a dead man. The wench goes with me.” "

On 1/26/2020 at 7:49 PM, Icelerate said:

Which is made more impressive by the fact that both the bracelet and the Sieglinde contain immense power so imagine how strong Eirika is afterwards when even before she's on the same level as Valter. 

Did you use the wrong quote from Valter? That dialogue doesn't say anything about Erika's strength. Valter doesn't say anything about Erika being a match for him in that dialogue.

The quote I used was wrong. I meant to use this one. 

Spoiler

Riev:
“Valter… You should stop playing around. If you don’t’ finish off Eirika’s forces swiftly… Her brother’s left the capital. He should be arriving here shortly. You don’t want to be fighting her still when he arrives. Trust me. We are equals here in Grado’s army. Would you like me to assist?”

Valter:
“All you need to do is vanish, you disgusting old man. Eirika is mine. I won’t let you have her. She is so strong, so beautiful… She’s the prey I’ve dreamed of.”