Serenes Forest's Teehee Thread

[Armagon]

3 hours ago, Saint Rubenio said:

Lmao all these fantasy outfits and then suit and tie

[Armagon]

Engage Manga Ch.12 stuff

Spoiler

Aight so turns out the trial goes kinda nowhere. One of the senators tries to kill Ivy personally but Morion catches it just in time. Ivy is taken back to her cell for the moment (the trial is adjourned upon Lumera's arrival). Kagetsu and Zelkov break in carrying some poison so that, on behalf of Hyacinth's orders, Ivy can kill herself. They said fuck that tho and they just break Ivy out of prison and leave.

I doubt this leads to the border conflict playing out as in the game itself but i'd imagine we won't see Ivy again until after the funny happens.

 

[Acacia Sgt]

Hmm, well, I guess that's also one way to do it. The story beats were already hit, it seems, just in a different way.

[Eltosian Kadath]

15 hours ago, Saint Rubenio said:

I did them on recruitment order and when I started freezing up I'd switch games. It worked out pretty well, and my contrarianism ensured I excelled at those obscure randos (still fucking hilarious that Gharnef is a playable character in the series lol) but my complete indifference of Heroes threw a wrench in my score.

Is the Gharnef inclusion from the New Mystery DLC maps? I tried one of these quizes, but my inability to spell sapped way too much time for it to really feel satisfying to do (like it took about 5 tries to get the right spelling of Jeigen for instance, and I just gave up trying to spell Lackshe, or whatever mess of consonants that name has...)

 

7 hours ago, Armagon said:

I haven't played so i can't fully comment on it but i don't think it's unreasonable to not like being unable to control your party members in a turn-based game on a fundamental level.

Not liking a thing doesn't mean it is badly designed, which was the quote I directly commented on, and assuming the two are the same is unreasonable.

 

7 hours ago, Armagon said:

This is not something exclusive to Persona 3, it's not even exclusive to Persona as a whole. This is like 99% of RPGs.

A lot of RPGs aren't going out of their way to emphasize you are playing as a specific singular character, taking a wider approach to displaying its story. A lot less than 99% of RPGs allow you to customize your party to the point of excluding any character you wish, or have sections where you play as entirely different characters for some section. A very clear distinction is made here with that design choice, like a novel that talks about its main characters in the third person, one that transitions between perspectives, and one that is only in the first person (which is far more similar to what P3 is doing).

 

7 hours ago, Armagon said:

Imagine if in Fire Emblem you could only control Marth and everyone else acted on their own, taking Kaga's original vision of "your units have real lives" to the extreme.

For instance, I don't think we are meant to be playing as specifically Marth in FE1/11, our role is a far more nebulous one.

 

7 hours ago, Armagon said:

 

And this is what i mean. As an outsider, every time i see Persona 3 discussion about the good and the bad, every single critique i've seen is often met with some "high-art excuse" about how the thing you think is bad is good actually and you thinking it's bad means it's good because of themes or something.

Part of the reason for that is that Persona 3 is art, and the game makes no illusions about that point.

 

7 hours ago, Armagon said:

There's Portable which has FeMC but it's the first version of the game to have controllable party members and so you have people saying it's an inferior version.

A more common reason people consider P3P an inferior version has to do with modifications necessary to get it onto the PSP, like cutting out the animated cutscenes and replacing them with text and in extremely rare cases in engine action, and the utter lack of an explorable overworld outside the dungeons, replacing it instead with series of images of locations that you can move a cursor over to interact with people, shops, and objects, or to change locations.

 

7 hours ago, GuardianSing said:

Was it the village the closest to the castle because if so it unfortunately does not exist anymore.

I think so. I will put the version of that village talk from the Serenes Forest translation in a spoiler box here, if you want its help.

Spoiler

Villager:
“The drawbridge over Thove River is under the control of Lord Maios. If it’s not down, and you don’t have a key, you’re not getting across. But I bet if you had someone handy along like a thief, you might be able get it down.”

 

6 hours ago, ping said:

"The AI-controlled party members in P3 are a source of frustration because they always seem to pick the wrong spell" would be a valid point to make, if it was true.

That is a bit debatable. Analyzing an enemy gives the AI perfect knowledge of its elemental weaknesses/resistances, even in situations where the player isn't given that knowledge, and that seems like a fair enough compromise to make, even if players looking that up on the internet could make better decisions. AI healing tends to prioritize health and revival over healing status afflictions, which can situationally be irritating. Some people think status afflictions are useless, and laugh at the AI treating them similar to debuffing. I am sure there are more niche examples I can think of, but it is fairly solid, especially once you get a hang of what all the tactics mean, and start changing them up for what you need each turn.

 

[Acacia Sgt]

Aww, it's like hearing the Kyril Thwack memes all over again...

Good times... good times...

No, I never played the NES version. Just the Mobile port of the DS one.

I'd say this, though, as someone who got at least roughly halfway through P3 FES, I can't say not controlling my full party was ever frustrating. Maybe. I admittedly don't remember much of that playthrough.

Edited February 2 by Acacia Sgt

[Acacia Sgt]

I'd say, I actually didn't do Rococo's art commissions last playthrough. Wait, did I even talk to him? I may have forgotten to check up on him, ahaha. Okay, almost done with Three Days Left...

[Armagon]

 

I am aware it's still in production. However, i can tell that they turned Gravity Rush into Doctor Strange. It's so over.

20 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Not liking a thing doesn't mean it is badly designed

I agree but it's also a case-by-case basis too and it's entirely subjective.

21 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

A lot of RPGs aren't going out of their way to emphasize you are playing as a specific singular character, taking a wider approach to displaying its story.

I meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeean what's even the criteria here? Is it the MC being a self-insert? Cause i can just point to any Western RPG plus all the Eastern ones too that do this. That's a pretty significant chunk of RPGs already. Hell, Dragon Quest, the grandfather of RPGs was doing that.

Is it that you can only control the MC in certain versions? Once again, there's many RPGs that do that already, albeit most aren't turn-based. I think even Dragon Quest was doing it too early on before they stopped.

To be clear, i'm not saying P3 is lesser for having those themes. My point is moreso there are games that also establish the lives and whatnot of the characters without having to do what P3 did so it's understandable if people don't like how P3 did it.

32 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

A lot less than 99% of RPGs allow you to customize your party to the point of excluding any character you wish

Again, what's the criteria here? This just sounds like normal party management to me?

44 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

or have sections where you play as entirely different characters for some section.

This is less common i agree but it's more common than you make it sound like.

45 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Part of the reason for that is that Persona 3 is art, and the game makes no illusions about that point.

A lot of games is art.

I would say though that i think games being art has a bit of an asterisk to it, in that it's still a game. This isn't to say that games aren't art but rather, unlike movies, books or paintings, video games can't really be made with the purpose of pissing you off and i'm not referring to Dark Souls gaming challenges here. It's why Neil Cuckmann's infamous quote of "we don't think of fun [when making games]" is so stupid, because games kinda have to be fun on a basic level. What's fun depends on you of course. 

People play games for different reasons but i think even those who play for the story could probably agree or understand that if the gameplay is really bad they wouldn't put up with it. It's why "if you thought it was bad that means it was good actually" doesn't really work.

[Acacia Sgt]

10 minutes ago, Armagon said:

 

I am aware it's still in production. However, i can tell that they turned Gravity Rush into Doctor Strange. It's so over.

So it's something to... get chained down by the bottom of the gravity well...?

[Acacia Sgt]

Okay, decided to go ahead until reaching Last Resort. Will stop there and resume tomorrow.

Even if the Faraway segments are much shorter, it certainly still takes a while to reach the actual Hikikomori content. Hmm...

Edited February 2 by Acacia Sgt

[Interdimensional Observer]

Episode 45

Spoiler

I like how happy this sounds.😄

• There is no celebration though, as His Majesty returns from his trip far abroad. Mito, with his retainers Skade and Kirks remind each other his departure on the Gandor was a secret expedition, and the Prince himself asked for his return to also be a secret. Stecken -remember the Galactic Gale was hired as his bodyguard- says the Gale will go into town and investigate the public situation for him.
• Sieg & Sally again. Sieg thinks they could escape here fairly easily, but Sally wants to watch a few more battles. Sieg utters that old Earth expression “good things come for those who wait”, and considering they’ll be getting fed information while on the White Base, he concurs they should stay.
  • To get this out of the way, after the upcoming battle, Akimi discovers Fairey is spending her free time repairing S&S’s mechs. Akimi concurs that’s a good idea, trusting those two will come around.
• The Gale is in town, the sound of engines suggests to me that they must be, being a biker gang, riding their motorcycles to get around the big, futuristic city. Easier to cover ground that way after all.

Relevant. 

• The Galactic Gale’s merchant, Three J, shows up with big news- Ozma got here before them and was killed. They realized he wanted to make peace, they realize him dying in Edon’s capital is a bad thing, and rumors are already spreading that the Tokuga royal family assassinated him.
  • They return to the White Base, Blues of Sasuraigar and Braiger crew know that major war with the New Planets Alliance is inevitable now. And that Khamen Khamen was to blame, apparently he has been doing unseen stuff on Earth, but the J9 didn’t know his base of operations was all the way out here.
• Prince Edward Mito meets his father King Tokuga and his mother the Queen Tokuga again, but is saddened by the news of Ozma’s murder. Just then, an alert a New Planets Alliance fleet is charging towards here, Mito and the Gale depart to rejoin the White Base immediately. His parents after his departure praise how reliable he has become and prayers for his success.
• On the battlefield, Key Malone is as violently hasty as before. Igo however still believes in the possibility of peace, as exhausting civil war would threaten to leave the Edon star system powerless to stop the Interstellar Alliance from conquering it. Nonetheless, he has his orders from above, so he has to command here.
• The White Base and Gandor both take to the field. I send out Daba just because L-Gaim Mk. II ought to be not too far off so I should catch him up in level, and I send out Daltanious too. Professor Arle tells Kento to fight to cement the alliance with between the royal families of Helios and Edon, and makes similar statements of royal-togetherness to Daba, with Kyao and Amu slipping a word in. Cute.

Veeeeery modern city for a star system that uses a feudal social structure. I spend the battle on that lovely 3x4 palace in the center.

On turn 2

Mito with voice-acting takes to the field. I really liked this for some reason.😆

And this was funny. The royal presence boldly brought forth leaves Edon’s purportedly-rebellious subjects in awe.🤣 I have found the Monarchist's Mech.

-Igo says this is because most of the planet Longoo soldiers are civilian militias. And that they need to hurry this battle before Edon’s regular forces swarm in to defend the capital, they deploy their reserves as reinforcements along the northern edge.

Speaking of Igo...

“Anglais”? Did Norman England head into deep space and never adopt Middle English?

• On turn 3 in the southwest, the Galactic Gale Synchron Combinations their bikes into Baxingar. Not as cool as Daiohja's arrival.
• After crushing many of the NPA soldiers, a ring of eight Daiohja grunts surround the palace. The evil chief retainer Desban announces that he has taken control of the castle and the royal family hostage. Arle, the royal retainer par excellence, can’t stand this and demands Desban be shot.
  • It’s a coup as Fairey tells Akimi, and Edon is the only friendly country they have out here in space, so this is really bad for the White Base Corps.
  • There’s no real crisis of what to do for the heroes though, as Mito’s momentary dilemma is fixed by Skade (before Akimi and Fairey talk). His Majesty is the Prince, if his father dies, he becomes the new King; if Edward dies though, it’s all over for the forces of justice. So Daiohja fights on as Desban orders Prince Mito killed.
  • The Gale also insists they can’t lose here.
• Oh yeah, the eight reinforcements Desban summoned are appear glitched. They refuse to move, and they sit in the castle’s round moat, their only weapon is a beam rifle, which doesn’t work underwater, so they’re completely harmless.
• The NPA isn’t pleased by the usurpation of Desban. They didn’t know about this.
  • Malone might be a rebel, but he didn’t want to resort to dishonorable hostage-taking, Igo Moccos and a grunt indicate this was a backroom deal made by the top brass of the NPA. For this moment, being but field commanders, they’ll cooperate with Desban.
• Like two turns later, Edward’s female NPC retainer, Shinobu, contacts him, she has secured his parents the King & Queen, though the castle be Desban’s. Knowing he bluffed now, the heroes can go all-out without worry.
• Looks like for my thousands of screenshots, I forgot to take those of Malone’s defeat here. Igo retreats, but Malone dies, with Igo lamenting his death.
• Destroying enough enemies causes Desban to join the battle himself, with four more grunts.

• If I squint, it sorta resembles Zeong? It does have beam-launcher fingertips. Nice skeleton sorcerer design; with a few edits it’d be an easy robot Darth Vader. Surprised this evil minister can fight, almost mutually destroyed Daiohja in the anime even the Robot Database says.
  • 81.5k HP, and a Repair Kit if you stab too much but don’t kill it. Still, not a hassle whatsoever.
• The Character Database entry for Desban does say Edon in the Daiohja anime had become antiquated, with young people demanding reform and revolution, and Desban twisted that for his own gain. So all of this in SRW GC is authentic to Daiohja, just being done with Baxingar characters/planets for the young rebels.
• Oh, and kill enough of his lackeys…

…and he’ll kill one of them for you! Also borrowed from the anime ala the ingame Database. (I trimmed out most of the exchange.)

• When defeated, Desban springs back, only to get story-OHKO’ed for good with a Lightning Destroyer from Daiohja.
• Desban dead, Igo calls the White Base, he commends their combat prowess, Bright states the White Base Corps’s desire for peace. Igo says the NPA must be controlled by someone, and will try influencing his superiors, Issac warning him about Nubia, given Ozma’s murder. He’ll be cautious.
  • The Gale crew says they like Igo, although they have an unexplained score to settle with him.
• The Prince goes to meet his parents again, safe and sound. Happiness all around, praise falls upon the Prince for his personal growth. The King says he’ll be abdicating, the times are changing, the Prince soon-to-be-King must decide the future of the Kingdom of Edon.
  • But just as his retainers think it’ll be a life in the capital serving the Prince/new King (though the feudal system will likely be abolished) from now on, Mito shows up. He tells all three of them to pack back up, His Majesty wishes to keep traveling with the White Base Corps, still an energetic young man.
• On the White Base, Bright and others briefly talk of Mito’s continued stay on the ships, and that this is but one thing accomplished when they still have a lot to do.
  • Three J shows up again to talk with his fellow Galactic Gale members. Thanks to King Tokuga, he managed to secure funding to forge the New Bax Sword, which in gameplay is 5200 power and 1 range. Not bad, though the 6600 power 1-3 range 30 EN each J9 Special is still Baxinger’s boss-buster.
• Stealing the last word, Khamen laughs at Desban’s death, moves on without skipping a beat to his next, unexplained plan.

---

So ends the Daiohja storyline. For as much talk of Edon that there is, there were only two battles against the one type of Daiohja grunts. Okay, it’s lighthearted-looking Super story on a non-Earth star system, only so much SRW can I do suppose. But still, Prince Edward Mito could’ve gotten more for his lone appearance in Super Robot Wars. Even if it was crafty of Banpresto mixing the J9 Trilogy with it.

---

Also, Daiohja’s title of “the Strongest Robot”. In GC gameplay… not so.

• Its ultimate attack is 1-range at only 5000 power at two upgrades, a hair below some of the Super competition.
• Maxed out, its EN is 300, low for a Super, though its attacks only consume 10-50 EN.
• No natural S terrain ranks, unlike a bunch of other Supers (Getter, Dancouga, G/Maz/kaiser, Super Soul Saber, Daltanious).
• M-size like the Mazingers is a mixed bag, though certainly not a terrible thing. It doesn’t have Mazin Power like the Maz duo either.
• While it does get 10 upgrade slots in every stat, Daiohja’s HP and Armor aren’t the best among Supers. 10 upgrade slots also make it expensive to bring to max potential.
• Daiohja does have unusually high Mobility for a Super though. It maxes out at 140, pretty good. Skade has Focus, so you could have an actually-dodgy Super, which being Super has the benefits of additional bulk in case they got hit, and some more power, plus the two sub-pilots.
  • Although, the Mazingers reach 130 Mobility and have superior HP/Armor/Mazin Power. Phooey on them.
• However, let’s face it- this is a Super, it’s difficult for Daiohja to be bad. With few exceptions, there’s only good and gooder for SRs in SRW.😀

BTW...

...Lightning Destroyer ("Striker" in the above translation) could totally be tweaked for Marth and look very appropriate for him. Change the Triangle Beeeam! into a five-color Binding Shield blast, the beam imprisons the enemy after all.😝

-BTW, that cut-in was added for XO, it isn't there in GC. The attack otherwise look the same, minus some graphical tweaks.

 

Edited February 2 by Interdimensional Observer

[Acacia Sgt]

Just now, Interdimensional Observer said:

So ends the Daiohja storyline. For as much talk of Edon that there is, there were only two battles against the one type of Daiohja grunts. Okay, it’s lighthearted-looking Super story on a non-Earth star system, only so much SRW can I do suppose. But still, Prince Edward Mito could’ve gotten more for his lone appearance in Super Robot Wars. Even if it was crafty of Banpresto mixing the J9 Trilogy with it.

Sounds like a shame. There are other SRW games that venture out of the Solar System. Could've been another chance to use it... but I guess they didn't plan to.

Just now, Interdimensional Observer said:

...Lightning Destroyer ("Striker" in the above translation) could totally be tweaked for Marth and look very appropriate for him. Change the Triangle Beeeam! into a five-color Binding Shield blast, the beam imprisons the enemy after all.😝

-BTW, that cut-in was added for XO, it isn't there in GC. The attack otherwise look the same, minus some graphical tweaks.

Hmm, not a bad idea, heh.

[Interdimensional Observer]

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Sounds like a shame. There are other SRW games that venture out of the Solar System. Could've been another chance to use it... but I guess they didn't plan to.

Alpha 3 was seven months away, they could've still held the license.

...One way I could see them radically adjusting Daiohja to make an early voyage to deep space unnecessary, would be to let Desban succeed. He overthrows the royal family, -but Prince Edward flees and ends up on Talys Earth. Exiled royals fighting to reclaim their countries or at least against their conquerors is one very old trope Grendizer. Later, Desban discovers Edward is on Earth, and sends troops to kill him. Would limit the mandatory distant spacefaring to later in the story this way.

Although, Mito's Character Database entry sounds like a lot of Daiohja is him going around incognito listening to and helping people until X happens and he summons Daiohja, as in his introduction scenario in GC. One fix for this, would be to have him show his natural heroic princeliness while on Earth by assisting Earthlings and getting their perspectives. If the Prince can't do it on his home system, might as well try preparing himself for the royal job where he can. Would provide some silly moments in the overarching SRW narrative, and also let him get what I guess is his character development in the anime.

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Hmm, not a bad idea, heh.

It's second on my list of "Never Gonna Happen Nintendo x SRW Cross-License Original Mech Ideas".

First on the list, thanks to your comments before, would be Getter Robo GE. -Or should that be "GEtter Robo"? I was thinking of using Getter G as the base, since it is the middle-stage of Getter and perhaps the least remembered trapped between the original Getter-1/2/3 and the ultimate Shin Getter. Either way, it'd be Getter Robo or Getter Robo G repainted green. With the Green Earth trio in command.

• Eagle's Get-1/Dragon would feature air-to-ground bombs, multipurpose missiles, and some vulcans -to rep bombers, fighters, and B Copters. His Ace Bonus would be a discount on the cost of Zeal, or a free casting of it.
• Jess's Get-2/Liger gets a tank cannon in an arm, adds artillery shelling some other way. Her Ace Bonus would be an SP discount for Resupply/Renew, or, maybe a free Accel + Smash Hit/Fury (or Valor even) casting.
• Drake's Get-3/Poseidon could get torpedoes or battleship artillery, but his CO Powers smack everything with water and Getter Cyclone is already a thing, so a MAP Getter Squall/Typhoon would be ideal. Ace Bonus, if his powers are already referenced, could be his AW1 or AW2 naval unit buffs of +1 Move and +20% Def, so something like that for himself.

Edited February 2 by Interdimensional Observer

[Acacia Sgt]

7 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Alpha 3 was seven months away, they could've still held the license.

...One way I could see them radically adjusting Daiohja to make an early voyage to deep space unnecessary, would be to let Desban succeed. He overthrows the royal family, -but Prince Edward flees and ends up on Talys Earth. Exiled royals fighting to reclaim their countries or at least against their conquerors is one very old trope Grendizer. Later, Desban discovers Edward is on Earth, and sends troops to kill him. Would limit the mandatory distant spacefaring to later in the story this way.

Although, Mito's Character Database entry sounds like a lot of Daiohja is him going around incognito listening to and helping people until X happens and he summons Daiohja, as in his introduction scenario in GC. One fix for this, would be to have him show his natural heroic princeliness while on Earth by assisting Earthlings and getting their perspectives. If the Prince can't do it on his home system, might as well try preparing himself for the royal job where he can. Would provide some silly moments in the overarching SRW narrative, and also let him get what I guess is his character development in the anime.

Hmm, plausible. Or it could be like, something happens during his travels and ends up on Earth by accident. Something like that.

7 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

It's second on my list of "Never Gonna Happen Nintendo x SRW Cross-License Original Mech Ideas".

First on the list, thanks to your comments before, would be Getter Robo GE. -Or should that be "GEtter Robo"? I was thinking of using Getter G as the base, since it is the middle-stage of Getter and perhaps the least remembered trapped between the original Getter-1/2/3 and the ultimate Shin Getter. Either way, it'd be Getter Robo or Getter Robo G repainted green. With the Green Earth trio in command.

• Eagle's Get-1/Dragon would feature air-to-ground bombs, multipurpose missiles, and some vulcans -to rep bombers, fighters, and B Copters. His Ace Bonus would be a discount on the cost of Zeal, or a free casting of it.
• Jess's Get-2/Liger gets a tank cannon in an arm, adds artillery shelling some other way. Her Ace Bonus would be an SP discount for Resupply/Renew, or, maybe a free Accel + Smash Hit/Fury (or Valor even) casting.
• Drake's Get-3/Poseidon could get torpedoes or battleship artillery, but his CO Powers smack everything with water and Getter Cyclone is already a thing, so a MAP Getter Squall/Typhoon would be ideal. Ace Bonus, if his powers are already referenced, could be his AW1 or AW2 naval unit buffs of +1 Move and +20% Def, so something like that for himself.

Now that's an idea!

Well, thanks to Heroes having the Gullinbursti, it's now not so far fetched to imagine FE with mecha, hehehe. If anything else, Dunbine shows you can combine medieval aesthetics/settings with mecha and make it work.

Specially if it were to also go the route that Dunbine uses. About the mechs being a recent introduction by an outside figure. So you still have a weird mis-match of medieval warfare but also mecha fights in the same battlefield.

[Acacia Sgt]

Heck, do it like how Rayearth did it. There's plenty of on-foot battles, but occasionally it was time to hop on the mechs... er, Rune Gods. So, also kinda how Codename S.T.E.A.M did it, with the occasional mecha stage. FE as of late has used "large enough they need 2x2 tiles to stand on" enemies. So just make them even bigger and have them be the ones the mech(s) needs to take care of. Employ a system like those of G Gundam or what a few OG mechs like Valsione, Soulgain, and Dygenguard use. Much easier for a medieval person to control the mech if it's through body movement instead of levers and buttons.

Like, yeah, screw fighting Grima's human avatar while atop his dragon body's back. Let's just Rocket Punch that sucker in the face!

Edited February 2 by Acacia Sgt

[GuardianSing]

I present to you a unified Pan-Arab state led by the only Albanian in the entire country.

11 hours ago, ping said:

Bad Quetzal! No! Bad!

Ah, don't worry. It was just a politician agitating for secret police to be enacted.

Our actual security law is much more progressive!

 

[Sidereal Wraith]

5 hours ago, Armagon said:

Engage Manga Ch.12 stuff

  Reveal hidden contents

Aight so turns out the trial goes kinda nowhere. One of the senators tries to kill Ivy personally but Morion catches it just in time. Ivy is taken back to her cell for the moment (the trial is adjourned upon Lumera's arrival). Kagetsu and Zelkov break in carrying some poison so that, on behalf of Hyacinth's orders, Ivy can kill herself. They said fuck that tho and they just break Ivy out of prison and leave.

I doubt this leads to the border conflict playing out as in the game itself but i'd imagine we won't see Ivy again until after the funny happens.

 

5 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Hmm, well, I guess that's also one way to do it. The story beats were already hit, it seems, just in a different way.

Yeah, imagine if IS had actually given a damn about Engage’s story, but that’d just be crazy. CRAZY I TELL YOU!

 

[Saint Rubenio]

8 hours ago, Armagon said:

Lmao all these fantasy outfits and then suit and tie

He's a legendary warrior of the guilds of old, wearing the hallowed armor of they who work 24 hours a day.

He's lucky I can't bench him

7 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Is the Gharnef inclusion from the New Mystery DLC maps?

Yeah, he's briefly playable in the third DLC map, where you play as the assassins.

7 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

I tried one of these quizes, but my inability to spell sapped way too much time for it to really feel satisfying to do (like it took about 5 tries to get the right spelling of Jeigen for instance, and I just gave up trying to spell Lackshe, or whatever mess of consonants that name has...)

That's understandable. These types of quizes do rather rely on your ability to type really fast. If you've trouble spelling names it gets even worse.

6 hours ago, Armagon said:

video games can't really be made with the purpose of pissing you off

Ehhh that's debatable. Ultimately, you say it yourself - "fun" is an abstract, subjective concept and there's people who genuinely find enjoyment in a game that isn't "fun." Take Papers Please, for instance. You literally do menial paperwork for the entire game. And yet it's one of the biggest indie hits of all time because of how much it nails its bleak atmosphere and the feeling of being a powerless clerk just trying to get by in an oppressive regime. Also I found it a genuinely fun puzzle but I'm weird.

More to the point, there are games that are indeed made with the purpose of pissing people off and yet people still play them. Remember I Wanna Be The Guy? Games like that? These are more commonly done for internet content, because people love to see funnyman malding, but there's still folks who enjoy bashing their heads against a wall and coming out of the other side being able to say they "beat" it.

There are games that, more than just a "fun" time, strive to be an experience - and therein lies the "fun" in playing them. But of course, this is all a highly murky topic. Videogames are really, really young as an art form, and in many aspects they're still finding their way to this day. Who can really say what is "fun" and what isn't?

[Lightcosmo]

8 hours ago, Armagon said:

but i think even those who play for the story could probably agree or understand that if the gameplay is really bad they wouldn't put up with it.

I seen the CS arc through knowing the gameplay was utter trash. Does that count?

Edited February 2 by Lightcosmo

[Codename Shrimp]

9 hours ago, Armagon said:

am aware it's still in production. However, i can tell that they turned Gravity Rush into Doctor Strange. It's so over

F

Then again, not surprising

9 hours ago, Armagon said:

different reasons but i think even those who play for the story could probably agree or understand that if the gameplay is really bad they wouldn't put up with it.

Sadly not the case

Alot of people don't care about the gameplay at all, in an increasing number

9 hours ago, Armagon said:

in that it's still a game

Cinematic experience ™️ incoming

Edited February 2 by Shrimpy -Limited Edition-

[Lightcosmo]

I guess my vote didn't matter. lmao

[Armagon]

3 hours ago, Saint Rubenio said:

More to the point, there are games that are indeed made with the purpose of pissing people off and yet people still play them. Remember I Wanna Be The Guy? Games like that? These are more commonly done for internet content, because people love to see funnyman malding, but there's still folks who enjoy bashing their heads against a wall and coming out of the other side being able to say they "beat" it.

Yeah but this falls into like the Dark Souls sort of thing.

I meant shit like Killers of the Flower Moon. That's not a movie you're supposed to think is "fun" you know? I don't think games can really do that, especially given both the average price of entry and they are generally longer commitments than movies or books.

2 hours ago, Lightcosmo said:

I seen the CS arc through knowing the gameplay was utter trash. Does that count?

This may have been sunk cost fallacy tbh.

Like how I beat Persona 5 Royal despite knowing full well that it singlehandedly killed any interest I had in the series.

1 hour ago, Shrimpy -Limited Edition- said:

Alot of people don't care about the gameplay at all, in an increasing number

"Dawg this game is so good"

"Is the game actually good or is it just impressive rendering"

"It's impressive rendering"

Many such cases among 1st Party Sony games.

[GuardianSing]

12 hours ago, Armagon said:

A lot of games is art.

I would say though that i think games being art has a bit of an asterisk to it, in that it's still a game. This isn't to say that games aren't art but rather, unlike movies, books or paintings, video games can't really be made with the purpose of pissing you off and i'm not referring to Dark Souls gaming challenges here. It's why Neil Cuckmann's infamous quote of "we don't think of fun [when making games]" is so stupid, because games kinda have to be fun on a basic level. What's fun depends on you of course. 

People play games for different reasons but i think even those who play for the story could probably agree or understand that if the gameplay is really bad they wouldn't put up with it. It's why "if you thought it was bad that means it was good actually" doesn't really work.

I recall an interesting video by game reviewer Yahtzee making the claim that a game can be engaging without being necessarily being "fun" and any game in how in portrays its context alongside the gameplay can be very engaging and interesting even if it isn't fun.

That isn't to say games should be purposefully made bad or excuse games for frustrating experiences but it's like, if the game is supposed to be a gritty realistic anti-war world war 1 simulator and the gameplay thus is incredibly boring and extremely stressful, that is still in service to engaging the player in what the creators wanted them to engage in.

Art doesn't really have a strict definition to it and I don't think it should beyond "Art is what people experience in it" but generally if you apply the same gameplay = fun puritan attitude to things like movies and books you run into some implications, that If you think that those art forms should always be fun and happy all the time or that a film could never be engaging without also being a fun happy time than you'll have to deal with the vast majority of that media containing some kind of downer scene that isn't fun to watch nor is it supposed to be.

And you might say, "Well it's a game, so it's different." To which I respond, how? How is gameplay being purposefully made uncomfortable to convey a certain type of theming any different from a scene in a movie or book having a purposefully uncomfortable scene to convey a certain type of theming? You might say it's because of the direct player control but why shouldn't that be changed to be fit with the intended engagement even if some players may find it "not fun"

I'll stress again that this isn't him saying that games shouldn't ever be fun or that something being bad because of dev oversight is good actually, but that a game can be engaging without being "fun" in the traditional sense.

Edited February 2 by GuardianSing

[Saint Rubenio]

1 hour ago, Armagon said:

Yeah but this falls into like the Dark Souls sort of thing.

I disagree. Dark Souls is a regular action game with an above average difficulty curve. That's it. It is not comparable to, for the few examples I brought up before and a few more for good measure:

- I Wanna Be The Guy, a meanspirited game intended to incite rage in its players by mean of completely unfair traps.

- Papers Please, a "boring" game that puts you through a repetitive, increasingly more cumbersome day job to sell the hopeless, oppressive atmosphere of its totalitarian regime setting.

- Disco Elyisum, a game with no "combat" in its classic inception, where you play a complete failure of a man whose "boss fight" is an uncomfortable chair and a dialogue tree.

- Who's Lila, a mindfuck where you walk around trying to decipher like 10 layers of mystery that constantly dips in and out of meta.

- Fear & Hunger, a niche RPG that thrives in being absolute bullshit because it suits the vibe it wants to go for. Though I hesitate to bring that one up as I've not played it myself. Really gotta sooner than later.

What I'm trying to say is, they may not be as common (because we live in capitalism and niche stuff doesn't sell), but weirder games that aren't "fun" do exist. They're out there, if you look for them. Dark Souls is not one of them.

1 hour ago, Armagon said:

I meant shit like Killers of the Flower Moon. That's not a movie you're supposed to think is "fun" you know? I don't think games can really do that, especially given both the average price of entry and they are generally longer commitments than movies or books.

What makes Killers of the Flower Moon so special? I haven't watched it nor heard of it. Remember, I'm not a movie guy, you're going to have to explain the significance to me.

Still, I do not agree with the point. Going back to the games I brought up before, you can't call them failures - IWBTG was quite popular in the old days of the internet, F&H and WL both have humble, yet passionate followings, and PP and DE are both some of the largest indie hits of the medium's short history. Clearly these games have to have something, otherwise people wouldn't have fallen in love with them as they have. But if it's impossible for games that aren't "fun" to be engaging, then these games simply can't exist or enjoy the success that they did.

Personally, I believe that claiming that the only way for a videogame to be "good" is for it to be the simplest manner of "fun" is doing the medium a disservice. There are multiple ways to have "fun" with a videogame, ways that not everyone is going to share.

Edited February 2 by Saint Rubenio

[ping]

13 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

That is a bit debatable. Analyzing an enemy gives the AI perfect knowledge of its elemental weaknesses/resistances, even in situations where the player isn't given that knowledge, and that seems like a fair enough compromise to make, even if players looking that up on the internet could make better decisions. AI healing tends to prioritize health and revival over healing status afflictions, which can situationally be irritating. Some people think status afflictions are useless, and laugh at the AI treating them similar to debuffing. I am sure there are more niche examples I can think of, but it is fairly solid, especially once you get a hang of what all the tactics mean, and start changing them up for what you need each turn.

Yeah, I would say that this sounds like something a player can work with. As I said, I didn't get very far into P3 and it's been a long time since I tried it out, but your description matches my initial impression (or what I remember that to be) of P3 as a game that can really drive perfectionists up the wall, since they can't fully prevent the companions from making "suboptimal" moves. But it's not like a game has to appeal to that kind of player.

13 hours ago, Armagon said:

A lot of games is art.

I would say though that i think games being art has a bit of an asterisk to it, in that it's still a game. This isn't to say that games aren't art but rather, unlike movies, books or paintings, video games can't really be made with the purpose of pissing you off and i'm not referring to Dark Souls gaming challenges here. It's why Neil Cuckmann's infamous quote of "we don't think of fun [when making games]" is so stupid, because games kinda have to be fun on a basic level. What's fun depends on you of course. 

People play games for different reasons but i think even those who play for the story could probably agree or understand that if the gameplay is really bad they wouldn't put up with it. It's why "if you thought it was bad that means it was good actually" doesn't really work.

Yeah, you lost me again. First off, your shortened version of the infamous quote ignores the context in which it was said (as shortened quotes tend to):

Quote

Fun in video games, I suggested to Druckmann, often goes hand in hand with virtual violence. “This might be a semantic argument,” he replied, “But we don’t use the word ‘fun’ with The Last Of Us. We say ‘engaging.’ It needs to be engaging. If the stakes are real, if you are invested in the character and their relationship, you’re going to go through and commit these actions that might—and should be—at times making you feel uncomfortable to progress in the story, to see what’s happened to the character and at times to struggle with their motivation versus your moral line.

“The kind of stories we tell, with strong specific characters, we like that at times you’re not in line with the character. It kind of makes you question philosophically: where do I stand on these things? And that was a big part of the first game and a lot of the stuff we learned from the first game we’re applying to this game.”

( https://kotaku.com/the-last-of-us-part-ii-s-violence-is-designed-to-be-rep-1826781044 )

I also want to point out that the very clever "Cuckmann" word play makes you look like a nine-year-old, but don't let my opinion stop you.

Of course, if you insist that games must be recreational, Druckmann's statement is still "wrong" in the unabridged form, but I fundamentally disagree with that premise. Games, video or otherwise, can be and have been used as self-expression, to communicate ideas or whatever else other forms of media can be used for. Why shouldn't they?

(It's also a bit funny that you're basically doing what people ITT accused 3H-newcomers of doing when Engage came out: Having a narrow expectation of what a game (FE or video- in general) are supposed to look like, and then be disappointed/dismissive/angry when the next (FE) game doesn't follow these expectations)

1 hour ago, Saint Rubenio said:

What I'm trying to say is, they may not be as common (because we live in capitalism and niche stuff doesn't sell), but weirder games that aren't "fun" do exist. They're out there, if you look for them. Dark Souls is not one of them.

I think I brought it up in a previous discussion, but I think Brenda Romero's Trains fits into that list very well, too. And while it goes into a very different direction, You Have to Burn the Rope is a nice example of a purposefully un-fun game, too.

9 hours ago, GuardianSing said:

Ah, don't worry. It was just a politician agitating for secret police to be enacted.

Ah. Then please continue with your authoritarian Kaiser representing the "Armed Forces" interest group.

[Acacia Sgt]

Hmm... I do wonder. If the game is engaging... are they counting the whole package? Since if only the story is, then you don't need to play it. Just watch someone else play.

I will admit, I played The Last of Us, but never finished it. Farthest I reached was the playable Ellie section. Why I stopped? Hard to say at this point. Maybe I wasn't finding it... fun to continue. I was engaged with the story, the characters, the setting... but I had stopped enjoying playing it. Or it was the drive to play it, I don't know. The fact I could look up what came next made it even less incentive to continue my playthrough. This was back in... 2016 or so, since TLoU was bundled with the PS3 I got. Haven't touched it since then. Nowadays I doubt I will finish it myself. Maybe.