Acacia Sgt Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 2 minutes ago, BrightBow said: The result are rather fascinating, though. Like Fury ending up as Eriynis. Hard to imagine a different reading of kanji could result in such drastic differences. Not Kanji. I think it's because the Erinyes of Greek mythology were also known as the Furies, which is the FE character's Japanese name. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ping Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 10 minutes ago, GuardianSing said: Fire Emblem in general is reluctant to use queen or any other female gendered term for the very few female rulers it has. Celica and Elincia are the only ones I can think of at the top of my head with Celica fitting the description as more queen consort than anything. "In marrying Alm, Celica became the first queen of the One Kingdom of Valentia, and aided her king with wisdom and compassion. Believed by the people to be a reincarnation of Mila, she was universally loved for her work fostering peace in the nascent kingdom." -Echoes ending for Celica "As first king of the One Kingdom of Valentia, Alm spent his life restoring the land to glory. He would be remembered fondly by later generations as Saint-King Alm I, who cast off the gods' oppressive yoke and founded a dynasty that would last a thousand years." -Echoes ending for Alm Celica's explicitly displaying her dependency on Alm with Alm's not even mentioning Celica. She is only queen because she married the real monarch. Made worse by Echoes, by the way: Cellica Afterwards, she and Alm joined together to become the founding king and queen of Valencia. Her kindness and wisdom helped the young king establish the foundations of the Kingdom of Valencia. The people believed that she was the reincarnation of Mila. It is said that they never ceased to love her from the very depths of their hearts. Alm In ages to come, this is what was passed down: ‘He who sundered the evil chains of the gods And established this thousand-year reign Must never be forgotten: Our Holy King, Alm the First!’ Gaiden already had the dynamic of "helping the young king" instead of Cel(l)ica ruling with equal authority, but at least her ending didn't say that she became queen "in marrying Alm". But I should stop making comparisons between Gaiden and Echoes; Ruben is probably already holding in several rants about a certain other addition 10 minutes ago, GuardianSing said: N-Not that a monarchy is egalitarian, a girlboss is still a boss Fire Emblem's insistence that its nobles actually have super special awesome blood, instead of being the descendants of the guy with the biggest sword, can be a bit annoying, yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrightBow Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said: Not Kanji. I think it's because the Erinyes of Greek mythology were also known as the Furies, which is the FE character's Japanese name. Exactly. Instead of using the intended name, they took a completely different sounding synonym and made that the name. That's like "localizing" Mr. Satan as Monsieur Lucifer or something. What's the point? All it does is show that they were so dedicated to using the wrong name that they were willing to put in actual effort to mess it up. Edited February 15 by BrightBow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acacia Sgt Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 (edited) 2 minutes ago, BrightBow said: Exactly. Instead of using the intended name, they took a completely different sounding synonym and made that the name. That's like "localizing" Mr. Satan as Monsieur Lucifer or something. What's the point? All it does is show that you were so dedicated to using the wrong name that you put in actual effort to mess it up. I'd think they felt Erinyes could pass more as a name over Fury while still keeping the meaning of the name. Well, she ain't Nick Fury, that's for sure. Edited February 15 by Acacia Sgt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ping Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 16 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said: I'd think they felt Erinyes could pass more as a name over Fury while still keeping the meaning of the name. Well, she ain't Nick Fury, that's for sure. Fury is a good name for a horse, though. Maybe it's acceptable to extend that to naming a winged horse girl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightcosmo Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 I always thought it was supposed to be close to "Fairy" since "Fee" also means "Fairy" lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armagon Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 (edited) 53 minutes ago, GuardianSing said: I don't remember that part of history... I do 53 minutes ago, GuardianSing said: Honestly the most interesting stories of real life monarchies are when succession happens and the rules for such are almost never commonly defined or the rules at place come into clash with the current situation of the dynasty. King Henry 5 beheading his wives because they kept birthing daughters. He finally gets a son only for him to die from pneumonia or something and get succeeded by Queen Elizabeth anyways. 53 minutes ago, GuardianSing said: Fire Emblem in general is reluctant to use queen or any other female gendered term for the very few female rulers it has. Celica and Elincia are the only ones I can think of at the top of my head with Celica fitting the description as more queen consort than anything. "In marrying Alm, Celica became the first queen of the One Kingdom of Valentia, and aided her king with wisdom and compassion. Believed by the people to be a reincarnation of Mila, she was universally loved for her work fostering peace in the nascent kingdom." -Echoes ending for Celica "As first king of the One Kingdom of Valentia, Alm spent his life restoring the land to glory. He would be remembered fondly by later generations as Saint-King Alm I, who cast off the gods' oppressive yoke and founded a dynasty that would last a thousand years." -Echoes ending for Alm Celica's explicitly displaying her dependency on Alm with Alm's not even mentioning Celica. She is only queen because she married the real monarch. Edelgard is referred to as Imperial Princess and then just Emperor after succession, not Empress. Of course I'm remembering Corrin now who can become queen of Valla at the end of Revelations, no strings attached, though I don't know if I'd count avatars since by nature they are divorced from characterization. Corrin is only queen if the player picked the female version of her and bought the 20 dollar DLC of the actual Fates games. In Birthright Ryoma becomes king of Hoshido and Camilla, despite being the eldest heir, specifically abdicates as queen and passes it onto Leo to become the king of Nohr. In fairness this is countered in Conquest with Hinoka becoming queen of Hoshido but only after both males in her family have already died. I would be remiss not to also mention how Mikoto was queen of two kingdoms, both of which she was queen consort to the real monarch though since Sumeragi is long dead she might as well be the absolute queen for the 5 minutes of screen time she gets and is treated as such. Sanaki however does get to be an Empress. And Micaiah always becomes queen of Daein regardless if Pelleas is alive or not. And of course Elincia is always queen. Leave it to the egalitarian game to have the most egalitarian view of its female rulers. Guinevere becomes queen of Bern at the end of FE6 as far as notable characters go so add her to the list. Lilina also becomes queen of Lycia regardless of whether or not she marries Roy. In fact, Roy is the only FE Lord who doesn't ascend past his original position outside of one particular ending (with Lilina). Ike doesn't count cause he willingly gives up his status. There's the queens in Engage too. I know Kaga read Ivy's ending and immediately had a seizure. Edited February 15 by Armagon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Rubenio Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 1 hour ago, ARMADS!!! said: Yah, I call some characters by their fan translation names too, Scathach is Ulster for me, fuck it, if someone wanna shit me for it go ahead, sometimes I don't like switching the spell I used. Didn't remember that Murdock was Mardok in FE7 lol, but Niime was so obviously supposed to be Nemue... The other way around, Mardok and Nimue were the wrong names used in CyL. Officially they had already been established to be Murdock and Niime. ...On the other hand... Yeah, you're completely right, Niime really probably was meant to be Nimue. The reference is quite fitting. As for Murdock, there's Marduk, but a Babylonian God is not the kind of reference I'd expect FE to make (even if 8-4 did go on to reference Marduk's weapon, Imhullu). All in all, FE7 is a game that made choices. 1 hour ago, ARMADS!!! said: Also, why "arguibly" 2 Arthurs? They're really two, no? Depends on what you think of Artur. 1 hour ago, ARMADS!!! said: They have problems with name reuse because they want to keep using mythological names from the same places or names from King Arthur and the song of Roland, instead of sometimes picking other stuff, look how Heroes had to name Odin as Alfador because Fates already had one, or how they named Thórr's axe as Mjolnir something instead of just Mjolnir. Hah, true enough. 1 hour ago, ARMADS!!! said: What I don't get is why they kept Selena from Fates like that, in japanese her name is Luna! (While Severa is "Serena" which is probably a try to spell Selena, but since Serena is a name too, and we already bad a Selena in FE8, they could've named her Serena, OR instead could've let it be Selena in Awakening and then Luna in Fates, as it is it looks like they picked Severa to avoid Selena but then they went for it in Fates just because, I get it, both of her names are to be related to the moon in japanese but in english they probably didnt pick the reference in Awakening and then just tried to use a name that looked like Severa, but still... There are more names that look like Severa then). Fates's localization is just plain weird. So many seemingly arbitrary name changes. 1 hour ago, Armagon said: Clearly the long game in preparation for the FE6 remake. If only. 1 hour ago, GuardianSing said: I think Three Houses does a decent job at displaying sexism as an existing issue in it's world and how it affects various female characters. Genealogy so far feels more on the side of "Author's personal biases" on the scale of narrative thematic framing. Yeaaaaah... 52 minutes ago, ping said: But I should stop making comparisons between Gaiden and Echoes; Ruben is probably already holding in several rants about a certain other addition C... CCC.... CCC...OON....RR...AAA... Hey go and argue about this with the folks over at the subreddit having a war over Celica lol 16 minutes ago, Armagon said: Guinevere becomes queen of Bern at the end of FE6 as far as notable characters go so add her to the list. Lilina also becomes queen of Lycia regardless of whether or not she marries Roy. In fact, Roy is the only FE Lord who doesn't ascend past his original position outside of one particular ending (with Lilina). Ike doesn't count cause he willingly gives up his status. Guinivere is pretty cool yeah. Too bad I've spent the better part of a year murdering her and Lilina and everyone else 16 minutes ago, Armagon said: There's the queens in Engage too. I know Kaga read Ivy's ending and immediately had a seizure. Fun fact: Kaga broke into the Engage mangaka's house and forced him at gunpoint to write the Ace Attorney arc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARMADS!!! Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 (edited) 1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said: I feel it might be due to the skill. Awakening Stahl is Sol in Japan I believe, for that matter. Oh, good point. 1 hour ago, GuardianSing said: I can understand skipping Arvis because he is prince consort. I'll see if he becomes any kind of king consort or just...the king. They should just do the Jadwiga thing and make Deidre king I'm willing to believe it as being based off of implicit biases of the creators rather than an intentional endorsement of sexism. Still feels pretty insistent but it could be a translation thing. Oh I despise that as well, especially when it becomes obvious the complaints are coming from people who have a somewhat limited knowledge of history and only criticize inaccurate history when it portends to their own modern views and biases. There is a massive difference between showing the disrespect and oppression of a certain group of people in history and giving a certain group of people barely any agency at all on an inherent level in a piece of media. And when it comes to fictional fantasy games like Fire Emblem the critique makes even less sense because again. I don't remember that part of history... I think Three Houses does a decent job at displaying sexism as an existing issue in it's world and how it affects various female characters. Genealogy so far feels more on the side of "Author's personal biases" on the scale of narrative thematic framing. Honestly the most interesting stories of real life monarchies are when succession happens and the rules for such are almost never commonly defined or the rules at place come into clash with the current situation of the dynasty. The rise of the few women monarchs in history are especially interesting because of that. Also 1980 being the earliest absolute primogeniture was adopted in a country reminds of one of my personal favorite quotes from comedian Jay Foreman. "There's been some changes over the past few years to drag the House of Lords, kicking and screaming into the 19th century." I genuinely think they should make the naginata infantry from Fates a standard in the series. Male preference yes, though I can't help but feel like the rest wouldn't even be brought up if Dierdre was a prince. It wouldn't be "Oh you must have Arvisa bear the real heir as quickly as possible." Dierdre would just be the next heir. Perhaps that is indicative of the male preference but I can't tell if that's intentional or because of a lack of imagination. Minerva in particular, even if Marth didn't manifest destiny, was well on the road to be overtaken by her thought-to-be-dead brother which depletes a lot of her original agency. Note how both of these characters are always referred to as princesses, never queens. Fire Emblem in general is reluctant to use queen or any other female gendered term for the very few female rulers it has. Celica and Elincia are the only ones I can think of at the top of my head with Celica fitting the description as more queen consort than anything. "In marrying Alm, Celica became the first queen of the One Kingdom of Valentia, and aided her king with wisdom and compassion. Believed by the people to be a reincarnation of Mila, she was universally loved for her work fostering peace in the nascent kingdom." -Echoes ending for Celica "As first king of the One Kingdom of Valentia, Alm spent his life restoring the land to glory. He would be remembered fondly by later generations as Saint-King Alm I, who cast off the gods' oppressive yoke and founded a dynasty that would last a thousand years." -Echoes ending for Alm Celica's explicitly displaying her dependency on Alm with Alm's not even mentioning Celica. She is only queen because she married the real monarch. Edelgard is referred to as Imperial Princess and then just Emperor after succession, not Empress. Of course I'm remembering Corrin now who can become queen of Valla at the end of Revelations, no strings attached, though I don't know if I'd count avatars since by nature they are divorced from characterization. Corrin is only queen if the player picked the female version of her and bought the 20 dollar DLC of the actual Fates games. In Birthright Ryoma becomes king of Hoshido and Camilla, despite being the eldest heir, specifically abdicates as queen and passes it onto Leo to become the king of Nohr. In fairness this is countered in Conquest with Hinoka becoming queen of Hoshido but only after both males in her family have already died. I would be remiss not to also mention how Mikoto was queen of two kingdoms, both of which she was queen consort to the real monarch though since Sumeragi is long dead she might as well be the absolute queen for the 5 minutes of screen time she gets and is treated as such. Sanaki however does get to be an Empress. And Micaiah always becomes queen of Daein regardless if Pelleas is alive or not. And of course Elincia is always queen. Leave it to the egalitarian game to have the most egalitarian view of its female rulers. N-Not that a monarchy is egalitarian, a girlboss is still a boss It is a very common thing in fantasy to have female religious figures bless men to go out on dangerous holy quests. Whether this is inspired from the Catholic idea of the Mother Mary or in Fire Emblem the Japanese idea of Shrine Maidens I'm not sure but either way I've always been fascinated with the fact that many fantasy worlds will have Goddesses and female religious figures yet still have an explicitly patriarchal world. After all in real life the justification for patriarchal society was that God himself was a man and so only men could be godly. It's why you have father priests and popes but never mother priestesses and just sister nuns who are married to God. That's honestly a big reason misogyny bugs me in these games because it's always in a world where it doesn't really make sense to exist as a prejudice, at least not in the same way. In general it comes from the fact that most Fire Emblem games, despite having a 13th century aesthetic, have a 19th century culture with the ideas of nationalism and rationalism overshadowing the ideas of divine right of Kings and general religious matters, stuff that would be much more significant in that time in actual European history. Most priests, monks, or clerics in FE aren't religious, especially in the modern titles. If a character is religious that is usually their gimmick as a character and very rarely are characters presented as being casually religious. The state and the nation is a lot more important to these stories than the Gods and faith. The religious characters in FE are almost always women while the nationalists are almost always men, and historically Fire Emblem has been far more willing to do away with the faith to protect the state. Wow, this comment, yeah I agree with all of this, very well written. Until a few hours ago I never questioned that the older FEs are weirdly mysoginistic, if you asked me yesterday I'd just shrug it off as "they surely did women a bit dirty on the older ones, but it's probably just cause it's a story set in a medieval setting" but you and the other people here are making pretty good points, like how you can still have a mysoginistic world or society without trying to justify it or while lampshading it that that's the point (I think that they did it well with Sacae in Elibe, or with the ridiculous logic that Zephiel's dad had in wanting Guinivere to ascend to the throne instead of Zephiel, only for Guinivere's random husband to be the king, anyway, none of these in Kaga's games lol). I gotta admit that I like when they show that one group of people has it bad into a story, it makes a story real to have prejudice (specially if they want to show an ugly or dangerous word), the problem is not having it per se, but it should be showed properly that it's a problem for the people on the fucked side, really like Sacae in FE7. One thing that I don't find strange though is them having godesses and still being a patriarchal society, that'd be like ancient Greece (or Rome, or both, I forgot exactly which, but anyway) that represented women as powerful in their art and mythology while in real life that definitively was not the case. The thing I agree is weird is having women powerful religious members in such patriarchal societies, but not godesses. Also, on a related note, those people that say they want it just like in real life only to justify misogyny are the same people that'd freak out if they added a gay character (or gay option) on a game, even if said character was persecuted for being gay (or forced to marry a person of the opposite sex or anything of the sort), because gay people are "woke" and totally didn't exist at all in medieval times. Edited February 15 by ARMADS!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armagon Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 2 hours ago, ARMADS!!! said: Scathach is Ulster for me Tbf he was Ulster officially for a while before they changed it. 13 minutes ago, ARMADS!!! said: Until a few hours ago I never questioned that the older FEs are weirdly mysoginistic It's easy to miss but once you notice it and how it just progressively gets worse in Kaga's games, it becomes really noticable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codename Shrimp Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 On 2/14/2024 at 8:15 PM, Lightchao42 said: I had 250,000 mira at the end of FC, I wonder where Joshua bought a scarf that cost that much. He had to get it from the black market Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrightBow Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 1 hour ago, Armagon said: Guinevere becomes queen of Bern at the end of FE6 as far as notable characters go so add her to the list. Lilina also becomes queen of Lycia regardless of whether or not she marries Roy. In fact, Roy is the only FE Lord who doesn't ascend past his original position outside of one particular ending (with Lilina). Ike doesn't count cause he willingly gives up his status. Also Eirika. From princess of Renais to princess of Renais. And Sigurd. Though I suppose this is more of a technicality, seeing how he did marry the princess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codename Shrimp Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARMADS!!! Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 (edited) 22 minutes ago, BrightBow said: Also Eirika. From princess of Renais to princess of Renais. And Sigurd. Though I suppose this is more of a technicality, seeing how he did marry the princess. I mean, they did mention that it was Ephraim who was inheriting the kingdom so it's fair that the one who inherits it is the only one getting a new title (king/queen/emperor/whatever), Eirika is just there helping Ephraim (Although yeah, he probably is the one who inherits Renais because he's the dude, unless they mentioned that he was the older one between the two or something). Also Eirika's ephitet in the non japanese version is "Restoration Queen", so there's that too (but on the jap version it's "princess" while Ephraim's is still "King" regardless of the language). Sigurd doesn't get anything because he didn't even know he had married the princess until it was too late. EDIT: Maybe Eirika's title was changed from "princess" to "queen" in the english version because of space problems, apparently they changed some of the endings a bit . Edited February 15 by ARMADS!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interdimensional Observer Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 (edited) 1 hour ago, ARMADS!!! said: One thing that I don't find strange though is them having godesses and still being a patriarchal society, that'd be like ancient Greece (or Rome, or both, I forgot exactly which, but anyway) that represented women as powerful in their art and mythology while in real life that definitively was not the case. The thing I agree is weird is having women powerful religious members in such patriarchal societies, but not godesses. I think of it like this, goddesses, even if be they be strong women like Athena/Minerva and Artemis/Diana or Hinduism's Durga & Kali, are placed on a pedestal. They are lifted into the heavens and removed from earthly reality. 1 hour ago, ARMADS!!! said: because gay people are "woke" and totally didn't exist at all in medieval times. If we're talking Ancient Greece and Rome (okay, so before medieval, but same-sex desires certainly existed even then, they simply weren't written down), well things were certainly not so straight, and that's on the record. Greco-Roman feelings towards male same-sex relations is a difficult topic. Aspects of it send off modern alarm bells concerning matters of consent and the underaged. This toxic 😬 side can be symbolized by the myth of Zeus abducting a young boy named Ganymede to be his immortal, youthful cupbearer. But then it's not like Zeus wasn't this way with his female lovers, he was King of the Gods-unrestrained with his desires (as would've been some real men who wished they could live like Zeus), regardless of whom the victim was (including his sister). However, over the many centuries of ancient Greek society and culture, it certainly wasn't all yikes! bad. A positive example can be found in the Sacred Band of Thebes.: The Theban Sacred Band was an elite military unit consisting of 150 pairs of male lovers, comprising 300 soldiers total. The Sacred Band of Thebes wasn't a bunch of sissies however. They were chosen based on merit, and the chronicles of war show this.: After the Peloponnesian War, with Athens crushed, Sparta emerged as the hegemonic city-state in Greece. At the Battle of Leuctra, the city-state of Thebes, with the Sacred Band its strongest unit as the vanguard during the fight, Thebes defeated Sparta. The almost-30 year hegemony of the Greek city-state that has gone down in history for being peak MANLINESS and warrior-hood, which sacrificed basically everything to be the strongest & manliest warriors (Sparta didn't produce much in the way of culture or economics), was destroyed. -By guys with eyes for each other. (Owing to things beyond the Theban Sacred Band's control, the new Greek hegemony of Thebes didn't last very long. And Philip II of Macedon would destroy the Sacred Band about 20 years later at the Battle of Chaeronea. His son and successor, Alexander the Great, did have male lovers as an aside.) ...Now as for female-female feelings. Ancient Greco-Roman misogyny means finding this in the written record is much more difficult. But the one, almost complete, poem we have of Sappho, the "Ode to Aphrodite"... Spoiler Aphrodite, subtle of soul and deathless, Daughter of God, weaver of wiles, I pray thee Neither with care, dread Mistress, nor with anguish, Slay thou my spirit! But in pity hasten, come now if ever From afar of old when my voice implored thee, Thou hast deigned to listen, leaving the golden House of thy father With thy chariot yoked; and with doves that drew thee, Fair and fleet around the dark earth from heaven, Dipping vibrant wings down he azure distance, Through the mid-ether; Very swift they came; and thou, gracious Vision, Leaned with face that smiled in immortal beauty, Leaned to me and asked, "What misfortune threatened? Why I had called thee?" "What my frenzied heart craved in utter yearning, Whom its wild desire would persuade to passion? What disdainful charms, madly worshipped, slight thee? Who wrongs thee, Sappho?" "She that fain would fly, she shall quickly follow, She that now rejects, yet with gifts shall woo thee, She that heeds thee not, soon shall love to madness, Love thee, the loth one!" Come to me now thus, Goddess, and release me From distress and pain; and all my distracted Heart would seek, do thou, once again fulfilling, Still be my ally! Translated to simple English the important things - ""Dear Goddess, I, your female devotee, is in love with a woman who doesn't love me back. Please help me." Goddess responds "She will eventually come to love you."". Sounds queer to me. 2 hours ago, Saint Rubenio said: As for Murdock, there's Marduk, but a Babylonian God is not the kind of reference I'd expect FE to make Tiamat-turned-Titania was in the eventual future. And Begnion was originally literally going to be called "Babylon". Duke Persis, Sephiran, gets his title from a little east of Mesopotamia, from the place called Persis/Parsa/Pars/Fars, from which the word "Persia" (now Iran) derives, and Farsi/aka Persian the language. Edited February 15 by Interdimensional Observer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuardianSing Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 56 minutes ago, ARMADS!!! said: One thing that I don't find strange though is them having godesses and still being a patriarchal society, that'd be like ancient Greece (or Rome, or both, I forgot exactly which, but anyway) that represented women as powerful in their art and mythology while in real life that definitively was not the case. The thing I agree is weird is having women powerful religious members in such patriarchal societies, but not godesses. Crucial difference there being that the cultural view of Gods as a concept differed pre and post-monotheism. Gods in pagan mythologies were more of a way to explain how certain functions of the natural world worked and why. Gods were essentially just humans with powerful abilities who acted the same as us and had the same moral shortcomings. The worshiping of these Gods was largely done so out of desire for natural blessings, such as rain, fertility, safety in battle, and all that jazz. The gods did not inherently respect or care about you but if you suck up to them they may give you some of their power, that kind of thing. Even in these mythologies, the head honcho god tends to be male. Zeus in Greek mythology is the chief of all gods as is his Roman equivalent Jupiter. With monotheistic religions, theologically God exists beyond the natural world, he is both the epitome of all morality and nature. People worship him because of his inherent role as the sole deity of the universe, because they see him as the sole authority over everything. He is both theologically and literally your father who you must respect and seek guidance, forgiveness, and mercy from. Fire Emblem wants to have it both ways by having it so Gods are flawed characters with limited power but have the people look to them as though they are the sole authority and moral power. The way that Rhea talks about Sothis is not the same way that an ancient Greek priest would talk about Aphrodite if you get me. 1 hour ago, Armagon said: It's easy to miss but once you notice it and how it just progressively gets worse in Kaga's games, it becomes really noticable. People undermine to a massive degree just how much gender roles are factored in when making characters. Most folks are a lot more attached to gender conformity than they like to admit and when you start noticing it in any kind of story it becomes imposssible to ignore. All forms of media has biases and the most present one by a landslide is assumptions based on gender roles and creating characters based around that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightchao42 Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 21 hours ago, Armagon said: We will be seated for the dysfunctional buddy cop-duo. Ah yes, grizzled veteran cop Godzilla and hotheaded rookie cop Kong will solve the case. 8 hours ago, ping said: This might be a bit nitpicky, but no - Akaneia did not have queens between games. Both Sheema and Minerva are referred to as "Princess", and the same is true for Nyna. It's nitpicky because Marth is also still "Prince Marth" throughout the game, but he at least becomes king in his ending. Maybe it's just Mario logic, where many female rulers are still princesses for some reason. This was the NES era after all. 2 hours ago, GuardianSing said: Honestly the most interesting stories of real life monarchies are when succession happens and the rules for such are almost never commonly defined or the rules at place come into clash with the current situation of the dynasty. The rise of the few women monarchs in history are especially interesting because of that. Reminds me of how the Japanese imperial family currently has three people in the line of succession (Naruhito's brother, nephew, and uncle, in that order). Female rulers used to be possible, depending on the circumstances, but the succession rules were changed in 1889 so that only males could inherit. 2 hours ago, Armagon said: I do Of course King Ghidorah is real, why else would there be so many myths about multi-headed dragons? 55 minutes ago, Shrimpy -Limited Edition- said: He had to get it from the black market I'm guessing one of the Anguis works as a fashion designer on the side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Rubenio Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 4 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said: Tiamat-turned-Titania was in the eventual future. And Begnion was originally literally going to be called "Babylon". Duke Persis, Sephiran, gets his title from a little east of Mesopotamia, from the place called Persis/Parsa/Pars/Fars, from which the word "Persia" (now Iran) derives, and Farsi/aka Persian the language. Yeah then he probably was intended to be Marduk and FE7 decided "hurr durr that one guy from the A team." 1 minute ago, GuardianSing said: People undermine to a massive degree just how much gender roles are factored in when making characters. Most folks are a lot more attached to gender conformity than they like to admit and when you start noticing it in any kind of story it becomes imposssible to ignore. All forms of media has biases and the most present one by a landslide is assumptions based on gender roles and creating characters based around that. It's something that is still deeply, deeply ingrained in our brains. Cultural upbringing's one hell of a drug. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armagon Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 How people be looking when they say seiyuu instead of voice actor 25 minutes ago, Lightchao42 said: Female rulers used to be possible, depending on the circumstances, but the succession rules were changed in 1889 so that only males could inherit. Imagine going backwards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acacia Sgt Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 4 minutes ago, Armagon said: Imagine going backwards. No need. I just need to look at certain parts of the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codename Shrimp Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 Parts? More like all of it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARMADS!!! Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 18 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said: I think of it like this, goddesses, even if be they be strong women like Athena/Minerva and Artemis/Diana or Hinduism's Durga & Kali, are placed on a pedestal. They are lifted into the heavens and removed from earthly reality. If we're talking Ancient Greece and Rome (okay, so before medieval, but same-sex desires certainly existed even then, they simply weren't written down), well things were certainly not so straight, and that's on the record. Greco-Roman feelings towards male same-sex relations is a difficult topic. Aspects of it send off modern alarm bells concerning matters of consent and the underaged. This toxic 😬 side can be symbolized by the myth of Zeus abducting a young boy named Ganymede to be his immortal, youthful cupbearer. But then it's not like Zeus wasn't this way with his female lovers, he was King of the Gods-unrestrained with his desires (as would've been some real men who wished they could live like Zeus), regardless of whom the victim was (including his sister). However, over the many centuries of ancient Greek society and culture, it certainly wasn't all yikes! bad. A positive example can be found in the Sacred Band of Thebes.: The Theban Sacred Band was an elite military unit consisting of 150 pairs of male lovers, comprising 300 soldiers total. The Sacred Band of Thebes wasn't a bunch of sissies however. They were chosen based on merit, and the chronicles of war show this.: After the Peloponnesian War, with Athens crushed, Sparta emerged as the hegemonic city-state in Greece. At the Battle of Leuctra, the city-state of Thebes, with the Sacred Band its strongest unit as the vanguard during the fight, Thebes defeated Sparta. The almost-30 year hegemony of the Greek city-state that has gone down in history for being peak MANLINESS and warrior-hood, which sacrificed basically everything to be manly warrior (Sparta didn't produce much in the way of culture or economics), was destroyed. -By guys with eyes for each other. (Owing to things beyond the Theban Sacred Band's control, the new Greek hegemony of Thebes didn't last very long. And Philip II of Macedon would destroy the Sacred Band about 20 years later at the Battle of Chaeronea. His son and successor, Alexander the Great, did have male lovers as an aside.) ...Now as for female-female feelings. Ancient Greco-Roman misogyny means finding this in the written record is much more difficult. But the one, almost complete, poem we have of Sappho, the "Ode to Aphrodite"... Reveal hidden contents Aphrodite, subtle of soul and deathless, Daughter of God, weaver of wiles, I pray thee Neither with care, dread Mistress, nor with anguish, Slay thou my spirit! But in pity hasten, come now if ever From afar of old when my voice implored thee, Thou hast deigned to listen, leaving the golden House of thy father With thy chariot yoked; and with doves that drew thee, Fair and fleet around the dark earth from heaven, Dipping vibrant wings down he azure distance, Through the mid-ether; Very swift they came; and thou, gracious Vision, Leaned with face that smiled in immortal beauty, Leaned to me and asked, "What misfortune threatened? Why I had called thee?" "What my frenzied heart craved in utter yearning, Whom its wild desire would persuade to passion? What disdainful charms, madly worshipped, slight thee? Who wrongs thee, Sappho?" "She that fain would fly, she shall quickly follow, She that now rejects, yet with gifts shall woo thee, She that heeds thee not, soon shall love to madness, Love thee, the loth one!" Come to me now thus, Goddess, and release me From distress and pain; and all my distracted Heart would seek, do thou, once again fulfilling, Still be my ally! Translated to simple English the important things - ""Dear Goddess, I, your female devotee, is in love with a woman who doesn't love me back. Please help me." Goddess responds "She will eventually come to love you."". Sounds queer to me. Tiamat-turned-Titania was in the eventual future. And Begnion was originally literally going to be called "Babylon". Duke Persis, Sephiran, gets his title from a little east of Mesopotamia, from the place called Persis/Parsa/Pars/Fars, from which the word "Persia" (now Iran) derives, and Farsi/aka Persian the language. I was coincidently thinking of the exact same examples lol (except for the lesbian example, that one I didn't know), though you did give some more details that I didn't know about some. Also, I'm not exactly sure if you made the post to agree with me and add to what I said, or because you thought that what I said on my post (the one you quoted, when I said "gay people totally didn't exist before") was serious and was making a point against it, I just wanna clarify that I was being sarcastic in that part (what you said added to the discussion anyway- maybe would add even more if I was being serious lol- I'm just clarifying it to avoid embarrasing myself, because upon reading the quote with what I said I became afraid that the sarcasm wasn't clear from my tone). 24 minutes ago, GuardianSing said: Crucial difference there being that the cultural view of Gods as a concept differed pre and post-monotheism. Gods in pagan mythologies were more of a way to explain how certain functions of the natural world worked and why. Gods were essentially just humans with powerful abilities who acted the same as us and had the same moral shortcomings. The worshiping of these Gods was largely done so out of desire for natural blessings, such as rain, fertility, safety in battle, and all that jazz. The gods did not inherently respect or care about you but if you suck up to them they may give you some of their power, that kind of thing. Even in these mythologies, the head honcho god tends to be male. Zeus in Greek mythology is the chief of all gods as is his Roman equivalent Jupiter. With monotheistic religions, theologically God exists beyond the natural world, he is both the epitome of all morality and nature. People worship him because of his inherent role as the sole deity of the universe, because they see him as the sole authority over everything. He is both theologically and literally your father who you must respect and seek guidance, forgiveness, and mercy from. Fire Emblem wants to have it both ways by having it so Gods are flawed characters with limited power but have the people look to them as though they are the sole authority and moral power. The way that Rhea talks about Sothis is not the same way that an ancient Greek priest would talk about Aphrodite if you get me. People undermine to a massive degree just how much gender roles are factored in when making characters. Most folks are a lot more attached to gender conformity than they like to admit and when you start noticing it in any kind of story it becomes imposssible to ignore. All forms of media has biases and the most present one by a landslide is assumptions based on gender roles and creating characters based around that. Oh yeah, good point about the gods. Also yeah, I think there's a decent chance that Kaga wasn't exactly mysoginistic himself but that the stories ended up like that because all of this that you said, also a bunch of other things- other than misogyny from his part- might have influenced it (such as: it was a 90s game and women usually didn't have as much power in games as nowadays- at least most of the times, maybe he wanted to write a story set in a medieval time and wasn't informed enough on the matter and simply thought it'd look more faithful to medieval stuff if he did it like that, maybe he just liked a story that had and similar arrangement and took inspiration from that, etc). Not to defend him as well, it's just that I think it's hard to judge whether someone really is sexist or not just for something like this, cause it may very well have been an attempt to make it feel more medieval but then it didn't age well or something like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interdimensional Observer Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 4 minutes ago, ARMADS!!! said: Also, I'm not exactly sure if you made the post to agree with me and add to what I said, or because you thought that what I said on my post (the one you quoted, when I said "gay people totally didn't exist before") was serious and was making a point against it, I just wanna clarify that I was being sarcastic in that part (what you said added to the discussion anyway- maybe would add even more if I was being serious lol- I'm just clarifying it to avoid embarrasing myself, because upon reading the quote with what I said I became afraid that the sarcasm wasn't clear from my tone). Don't worry, I understood.😀 I was just explaining because I like to, in case one didn't know.😆 14 minutes ago, Armagon said: How people be looking when they say seiyuu instead of voice actor I occasionally rotate between the two, just to change it up, because using the same word all the time gets repetitive/boring.😛 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightcosmo Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 "Stahl" also means "Steel", so it could be that! XD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armagon Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 16 minutes ago, ARMADS!!! said: Also yeah, I think there's a decent chance that Kaga wasn't exactly mysoginistic himself but that the stories ended up like that because all of this that you said, also a bunch of other things- other than misogyny from his part- Well the thing with Kaga is he never grew out of it. 9 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said: occasionally rotate between the two, just to change it up, because using the same word all the time gets repetitive/boring.😛 Gotta change it up by using a language not English or Japanese. Sylvester McCoy is my favorite doubleur. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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