Three Houses Character Builds Dump

[vikingsfan92]

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I would add Chapter 1 to the pile. The enemy quality is quite high, and you have very few tools available. Worse yet, you can't Turnwheel here, so if Teach or your Lord dies, it's a Game Over.

 Personally I think chapter 1 is the worst of them all and chapter 5 is annoying regardless of difficulty just due to size alone

[Shadow Mir]

18 hours ago, windypanda1 said:

5.    The most difficult points in Maddening are probably Chapter 5 (Miklan), Chapter 13 (Hunting By Daybreak), and Endgame.

Honestly, I d say that chapter 5 is annoying no matter the difficulty just on sheer size alone, and the fact that most all your units only have 4 move at that point doesn't help.

3 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

It's literally 2 activity points a month. Sure in the early game it's not worth it, but when youre sitting on 8 activity points? You can afford it.

Honestly, I'd say another thing that factors among those who dislike tea parties is the real time factor. Not everyone likes having to savescum (because they could just decline your invitation), as well as having to constantly stop and look up the right tea to use and the responses to pick. Now, I might be able to forgive all this if the reward was actually worth all this hassle, but... 1 extra point of charm... just isn't.

[LoneRecon400]

I don't think real time should be considered a factor. If it was, it would be better to just ignore the monastery entirely since Aux battles provide a much faster mean of raising Skill Ranks.

But I'm just going to fold on that. No sense in talking about the benefits if nobody is actually going to play that way.

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

On 8/21/2022 at 6:10 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

but I don't find Annette or Lorenz good at it, because their healing is range 1 and they're stuck in 4 move classes until Level 20

I´ve gained a massive appreciation for Recover, it just heals so much - the rest is playstyle I daresay since I tend to rely on early tanks or later dodgetanks my squad doesn´t nessecarily break up and pain is mandatory.

Annette can get it without causing disturbance in any build she goes for except LA-Wyvern and Lorenz... I don´t like him as a unit so until he has given Thyrsus he serves as backup semitank mage healer thing. He serves better/has better options as a Mage with a Lance than anything else in my opinion.

And Mercedes... this woman cleared her side of chapter 13 is all I´m sayin. Which, fair enough, she was roided the fuck up, but still. 

[windypanda1]

Bishop with healing staff and Physic can heal units to full (unless you’re healing like 60+ HP character) from a very long distance. I think it’s a pretty valuable role on a team but it seems like Bishop isn’t as popular as I imagined.

It’s interesting how Recover and Physic seem to be mutually exclusive. Having Recover is definitely a lot better than not having Recover, but I think Physic is more valuable even outside of Bishop. The extra range is too good. Just my two cents.

Edited August 22, 2022 by windypanda1

[Dark Holy Elf]

On 8/21/2022 at 8:45 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

The biggest other things Dimitri brings to the table, Battalion Wrath/Vantage, are enemy-phase exclusive. So, he can Dance on player phase, then park himself in enemy territory and watch the bodies fall. Lacking a faire or crit-boosting skill is unfortunate, but his innate Strength is high enough that he should be hitting hard regardless, even as a Dancer.

This is certainly true (and a neat thing about the dancer evasion build is he doesn't even need Battalion Vantage, really). However, when relying on a critical build, every point of Atk is worth 3 damage, and the combined lack of -faire and lowish str mod and growth will likely add up to some missed kills.

Don't get me wrong, I have seen Dancer Dimitri in action and it is terrifyingly effective but it won't be as good at killing every last one of them as Paladin/Wyvern/Warmaster Dimitri. And there's something to be said for having two separate units who can be placed almost anywhere instead of just one.

10 hours ago, windypanda1 said:

It’s interesting how Recover and Physic seem to be mutually exclusive. Having Recover is definitely a lot better than not having Recover, but I think Physic is more valuable even outside of Bishop. The extra range is too good. Just my two cents.

This is definitely my feeling as well. Physic is amazing. Flexibility with range and positioning is king in games like this IMO.

 

Finally, to weigh in a bit on tea times:

I actually enjoy tea times. That said, doing many of them in a row for a single character is a form of grinding. If we're going to talk about builds as being ":low investment", then that should certainly include real time, which is the most real form of investment there is. As such, I do think it's fair to say it's an advantage to have higher innate charm if you plan to bait many enemies. How big an advantage is debatable, but it's an advantage.

[Shadow Mir]

23 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

I don't think real time should be considered a factor. If it was, it would be better to just ignore the monastery entirely since Aux battles provide a much faster mean of raising Skill Ranks.

Dude, they don't even compare. While the monastery is admittedly a pretty big timesink, ignoring it means passing up on a lot of stuff that makes the game easier, like cooking, recruiting, and so on and so forth. 

[LoneRecon400]

I seriously don't understand how people tolerate the monestary slog but draw the line at tea parties.

Like you guys are telling me you don't mind Fishing? Because I really do and never do it as a result. But I'd never leave it out when talking about stacking speed on a unit.

Edited August 23, 2022 by LoneRecon400

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, LoneRecon400 said:

I seriously don't understand how people tolerate the monestary slog but draw the line at tea parties.

Like you guys are telling me you don't mind Fishing? Because I really do and never do it as a result. But I'd never leave it out when talking about stacking speed on a unit.

Monastery takes a lot of time, but at least you're actively doing something running around talking to people and the like. Tea parties involves just staring at the character most of the time. Not something I, personally finding engaging (I don't really like the fishing either, but it does use marginally more brain power). I also used to avoid the personal quarters in Fates even though it's like free support points because it just takes so damn long to do with absolutely nothing happening.

Edited August 23, 2022 by Jotari

[lenticular]

On 8/22/2022 at 4:45 AM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I would add Chapter 1 to the pile. The enemy quality is quite high, and you have very few tools available. Worse yet, you can't Turnwheel here, so if Teach or your Lord dies, it's a Game Over.

I would honestly just say "Chapters 1-5". They all have the same basic problem that you havne't had long enough to build your units to really start gaining advantages, and most of them also have their own unique problems on top of that. As you say, Chapter 1 has no Divine Pulse, Chapter 2 I don't really have a problem with, Chapter 3 has fog of war, Chapter 4 has the Death Knight, and Chapter 5 has the Black Beast plus the possibility of awkward aggro patterns depending on how annoying Gilbert decides to be. It's just a pretty tricky part of the game overall.

3 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

I seriously don't understand how people tolerate the monestary slog but draw the line at tea parties.

Like you guys are telling me you don't mind Fishing? Because I really do and never do it as a result. But I'd never leave it out when talking about stacking speed on a unit.

 Personally, I think that there's a useful and meaningful distinction to be made between theoretical optimisation and practical optimisation. Theoretical optimisation is mostly about exploring the absolute limits of what is possible, and how far the game can potentially be pushed. Practical optimisation is more about giving practical advice that will actually be helpful to them as they play the game.

Knowing what to include in theoretical optimisation is easy: it's literally everything (unless we're in the context of a particular challenge with specific rules that dictate otherwise). Tea time is included, fishing is included, every conceivable greenhouse shenanigans, save scumming for exam passes, divine pulse abuse to burn random numbers and get lucky battle outcomes, broken weapon grinding, the month repeat bug, the endless dancer xp bug, all other glitches and exploits, use of online features, use of DLC (including items like the +2 boots and the Chalice of Beginnings)... and so on and so forth. We're looking for the theoretical limit of what is possible.

Practical optimisation is trickier to judge because different players are able and willing to do different things. Maybe one player is fine with broken weapon grinding but doesn't want to divine pulse scum, but a second player is the opposite way around. I wouldn't fault either one of them. So for practical optimisation advice, I think it's good to include different options when possible to account for the different preferences of different players. So in the case of Charm on dodge tanks, it's good to note that a high Charm stat is useful, especially in the end game, and that this can be achieved either by using a unit with naturally high charm or by using the teatime mechanic. This is what's likely to be the most helpful to the most people.

All of that said, though, here are the reasons why I personally don't enjoy tea time. First, it's time consuming. I've never timed it, but I suspect it's the single most time consuming option available in the monastery. Second, the random availability can make it unreliable; if you're going to need it, you need to plan it well in advance otherwise you risk not having it be available at the times you really need it. Third, it feels like it pretty much requires looking at guides if you want to guarantee success. A lot of the answers are obvious once you're familiar with the characters, but there are enough that are not that there's a very real chance for failure if you don't have a guide (or memorised results). And lastly... I honestly just find the whole thing a little bit creepy. Especially the ending part with its whole vibe of "why Mr. Darcy, what a delightful teatime that was, I shall now permit you to stare at my bosom".

I mean, I don't like fishing either, and will mostly avoid that too. But I'm more willing to engage in it occasionally and grudgingly than I am teatime. But I don't claim that's anything other than personal preference.

On 8/21/2022 at 10:49 PM, LoneRecon400 said:

Here's a question: When exactly do you think Manuela will be able to hit Alert Stance +?

Because by mathing it out and basing on my experince, I came to the conclusion there's a 4 chapter chapter difference from Manuela learns it compared to a in house student who is neutral in flight.

Thats a pretty significant gap in performance if that were true. But those calculations is almost entirely dependent on many battles a unit faces. So when would you expect Manuela to hit Alert Stance and many fights in a flying class would you expect her to be in?

Honestly, I don't remember. I know from experience that the build is possible, but I don't recall details (and don't have the energy to do the maths for it myself right now). If you have done the maths and it shows that it shouldn't work, then I will be perfectly willing to concede that I may just have got lucky and/or shown favouritism. That said, I would be interested in seeing your numbers, because the result that you've got surprises me. Early chapters are just so much less productive than later ones when it comes to training skills. In the early game, you don't have relevant saint statue bonuses, you aren't doing as many battles per month (higher professor rank makes more battles possible and the availability of paralogues gives more incentive to do them), lower professor rank makes it harder to ensure you're getting multiple manual tuitions per month, you don't have a knowledge gem, you can't gain flying xp in battle at all before level 10, and so on. Did you account for all these sorts of things while doing the numbers?

[Asmont Osborne]

I absolutely agree with @Shanty Pete's 1st Mate, this is a great idea for a thread! To be honest, I’ve been postponing making a list of builds for my own personal use, as 3H does give you a lot of ideas, but I got some new ideas for things I’d never even considered!

Magic Bow Lorenz sounds really fun, and I’d argue he’d be better with brave CAs than most thanks to his personal skill giving him +2 damage for free (which translates to +4 with double attacks).

I’d never even considered Quick Riposte on Claude, and while it may be hard to stray from the tried and true Vantage/Wrath or AS+/BW builds, it made me realize that there may be potential for a bulkier support build on him, especially considering the fact that he gets access to the Sword of Begalta from Ch. 17 onwards for enhanced healing. Pair that with his Crest (chance of healing 30% of damage with combat arts), as well as the usual AS+, Sword Prowess and some crit boosts, and he can sustain Quick Riposte even better! Of course, the sword comes pretty late, so you could either use a different Sacred Weapon (namely the Axe of Ukonvasara) or just forego that part entirely, but it’s a fun idea.

That being said, I wanted to contribute something to the discussion myself, with regards to some of the builds you suggested.

Female fliers are definitely some of the best units you can build. I’d never thought of Manuela or Catherine (as the former joins late, and the latter has basically no starting ranks and no useful boons outside of swords), but I feel like all of them can benefit from Defiant Avoid more than the Player Phase skills you mentioned. Outside of dancing, they need to Wait to be at their best on Enemy Phase, so you can probably fit more generally useful things in those slots.

Out of the four I’d consider best at the job - Petra, Hilda, Leonie and Ingrid, in that order - two are Crestless, which means it’s very easy to reach the HP threshold with something like the Rafail Gem, which also prevents them from dying instantly to archers while they prepare (actually, does wielding two Relics mean you lose 20 HP per fight? I don’t remember). Out of those same four, two learn Battalion Wrath and two do not: unfortunately, the two who don’t are also the ones who lack Axe boons, from which they could really benefit as these units really appreciate raising their axe skills for Wyvern Lord (in my opinion, it’s strictly better than Falcon Knight for this build and generally for anyone not named Marianne or Bernadetta who wants to be a flier and can choose between the two). Axe skill also allows Ingrid and Leonie to qualify for Warrior and unlock Wrath, which works beautifully with AS+ (no need to preempt enemy attacks if you can just dodge them) and synergizes with Defiant skills since you can keep your battalion’s HP full (moreover, you won’t need to avoid replenishing battalions). Another cool Defiant skill is Critical, which you are already working towards by being in Wyvern Lord. It’s usually overkill and you’ll get it a bit late, but hey, it’s basically free.

 

Like other users who have already commented, I find Dimitri to work with mostly anything as long as he has BV/BW and a way of countering enemies, so I’d rather give him Retribution support, which doesn’t incur in any Hit penalties. My latest Blue Lions run features him in Holy Knight, since I wasn’t swimming in healers and Recover utility was something productive for him to do on Player Phase. Generally, my Dimitris run BV/BW, Lance Prowess, Lance Crit +10 and Hit +20.

Similarly, as @Dark Holy Elf said, I don’t find that Lysithea gets much use out of Dark Flier: her spell list and Black Tomefaire are incompatible, which really isn’t what you want from a unit whose best offense comes from 1HKOs. For the Advanced tier, I think Valkyrie suits her best, as she appreciates Uncanny Blow and general mobility on her way to Dark Knight (I tend to have my Gremories go Dark Knight too, as mobility and firepower are always a good option to have).

 

Speaking of offensive mages, the Wyvern Lord Annette build you mentioned is one of my favorites in the whole game, but I do have some comments to make. First of all (and this is rather minor, but still), I feel like Annette has better options for her main weapon: she can definitely do well with Silver+, but Steel+ has 4 less Mt (may be crucial) and 5 less Hit (not a game changer) with 1.5x the durability, which lends itself well to a unit who spams CAs for a living. There is also the Devil Axe+, which may be useful for lowering her HP (more on that later), Freikugel (if you don’t need it on anyone) and obviously Crusher (and Dust).

Additionally, you may want to use grounded battalions, or Annette’s spell list, at times, and Dark Knight can be a good alternative for those situations: while getting her Riding rank up, she can go into Cavalier first (D+ lances is enough for any class she may want to be in, but between Cav and Pegasus Knight for Flying you may as well go up to C, then use axes) and then Valkyrie for Uncanny Blow: this will help raise her accuracy on Player Phase (the only phase where Annette truly shines, imo) while also building relevant ranks for Dark Knight and providing healing support. While in Advanced tier, I’d personally prioritize Valkyrie for the mastery skill and then go Wyvern Rider. Dark Flier doesn’t offer much to an offensive Annette, I’d argue, although you ARE giving her Nuvelle Fliers Co., so it’s still an option. I’d also run other things over Alert Stance+ on Annette, for the reasons I mentioned.

I spoke of the Devil Axe+ earlier, and that’s because I think all Player Phase nukes (which, by definition, rely on good positioning to circumvent their lack of durability) can make great use of Defiant skills: Strength for men (especially Sniper Ignatz, or anyone who uses Wrath) and Magic for women (namely Annette or Lysithea: for the former, it might be a bit of investment since you’re trying to escape her spell list, but when it works, it really Crushes the enemies - pun intended).

One last thing, this time about your Brawling dodgetank: it’s certainly a fun build that I’ve used myself, but I do find it unfortunate how pretty much all dodgetanks want AS+ to excel. Instead, I like using Brawl Avoid +20 as an extra for Brawling specialists, especially those who don’t need to go Grappler (at least not right upon hitting Lv. 20) because they already have a CA that hits twice. My favorite user of this is Alois - who, as you may have already realized, is my favorite character in the game by a mile - since One-Two Punch is an excellent art that boosts his survivability by preventing the enemy’s follow-up attacks, and Brawl Avoid +20 mitigates the chances of that single hit landing. Pair it with Quick Riposte, and it will be easier to maintain the 50% HP threshold. Other candidates are Caspar and Felix, whom you’ve already mentioned, as well as Dedue (same CA as Alois and bulkier, but suffers from a Faith bane) and even Catherine (since a Brawling Catherine doesn’t have access to any Fistfaire classes other than War Cleric, and she does have Nimble Combo for Brave attacks and even more Avoid).

 

I think I’ve rambled way too much. Again, great idea for a thread. I’ll make sure to follow it as more fun builds will no doubt be added.

Edited August 23, 2022 by Goddess Serra
Forgot to mention AS+ on Annette and Defiant Critical

[Dark Holy Elf]

7 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

I seriously don't understand how people tolerate the monestary slog but draw the line at tea parties.

Like you guys are telling me you don't mind Fishing? Because I really do and never do it as a result. But I'd never leave it out when talking about stacking speed on a unit.

I don't like fishing for what it's worth. And I have in the past spoken out strongly against suggestion that we should consider "buying every last bit of bait and using all of it" as our standard for considering professor rank at different points in the game, because that's an immense timesink for minimal gain. But there is a bit difference between that and just getting a few bullheads for certain chapters. I think a very modest amount of fishing, e.g. enough to satisfy certain quests or targeted at certain rewards like this, is not unreasonable.

That said, in a comparison between, say, Hanneman and [insert other mage], I would certainly consider the fact that Hanneman may need Bullheads to reach certain doubling thresholds on armours in some chapters while [other mage] will not is an advantage for [other mage], much like the charm comparison here.

2 hours ago, lenticular said:

Practical optimisation is trickier to judge because different players are able and willing to do different things. Maybe one player is fine with broken weapon grinding but doesn't want to divine pulse scum, but a second player is the opposite way around. I wouldn't fault either one of them. So for practical optimisation advice, I think it's good to include different options when possible to account for the different preferences of different players. So in the case of Charm on dodge tanks, it's good to note that a high Charm stat is useful, especially in the end game, and that this can be achieved either by using a unit with naturally high charm or by using the teatime mechanic. This is what's likely to be the most helpful to the most people.

Completely agree with this. I know I tend to personally speak primarily from my own playstyle (as, I imagine, we all do), but in general I think practical advice likes this which acknowledges different things individual players may be willing to do is most useful.

[Shadow Mir]

9 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

I seriously don't understand how people tolerate the monestary slog but draw the line at tea parties.

Like you guys are telling me you don't mind Fishing? Because I really do and never do it as a result. But I'd never leave it out when talking about stacking speed on a unit.

For how time consuming they are, tea parties just aren't very rewarding (again, if the reward was actually worth it, I might have been able to forgive this, but it just isn't). It doesn't help that it pretty much makes a guide mandatory if you want to succeed unless you know the character in question really really intimately (and even then, there are enough answers that aren't obvious that I'd imagine you would STILL need a guide lest you screw up too badly); I wouldn't be surprised if I spent more time looking at a guide than actually making decisions. Fishing is pretty boring, but it's tied to two other aspects of the monastery - cooking and meals (the latter of which is generally the most efficient motivation method).

2 hours ago, Goddess Serra said:

Similarly, as @Dark Holy Elf said, I don’t find that Lysithea gets much use out of Dark Flier: her spell list and Black Tomefaire are incompatible

I had said something along the lines of that myself.

@Goddess SerraI cannot agree on Defiant skills, largely because they are almost all tied to Master classes, and mastering them in a timely fashion is generally not going to happen. Even then, I'd find they make my build worse off than without them. They only really come off as win-more at best. Ditto for Wrath.

[Asmont Osborne]

10 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

@Goddess SerraI cannot agree on Defiant skills, largely because they are almost all tied to Master classes, and mastering them in a timely fashion is generally not going to happen. Even then, I'd find they make my build worse off than without them. They only really come off as win-more at best. Ditto for Wrath.

To each their own, I guess. Personally, I find that while some Master-tier mastery skills are definitely not worth it, others can either be really useful (Defiant Magic, Avoid, Critical) or simply revolutionize the way a character plays (Quick Riposte). Besides, I just like playing with all the tools at my disposal, and since I’m not an LTC player by any means, I can afford to slow down if needed.

Edited August 23, 2022 by Goddess Serra

[windypanda1]

Do y’all have any insights on the strongest Valkyrie build in the game? What characters run it better than others? What ability setup is best? I’ve used the class a couple times but I’m curious how you guys would optimize it.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

5 hours ago, lenticular said:

All of that said, though, here are the reasons why I personally don't enjoy tea time. First, it's time consuming. I've never timed it, but I suspect it's the single most time consuming option available in the monastery. Second, the random availability can make it unreliable; if you're going to need it, you need to plan it well in advance otherwise you risk not having it be available at the times you really need it. Third, it feels like it pretty much requires looking at guides if you want to guarantee success. A lot of the answers are obvious once you're familiar with the characters, but there are enough that are not that there's a very real chance for failure if you don't have a guide (or memorised results). And lastly... I honestly just find the whole thing a little bit creepy. Especially the ending part with its whole vibe of "why Mr. Darcy, what a delightful teatime that was, I shall now permit you to stare at my bosom".

Literally just did teatime with Balthus on his (post-skip) birthday. After achieving a "Perfect" rank, he let (female) Teach know that he was gonna be exercising later at the training ground. Shirtless. I genuinely wonder whether this stuff is any tamer than Fates' face-touching.

As for "time expense", going through the Arena with a unit who isn't one-rounding probably takes longer than a teatime where you're not agonizing over the answers. As would the "hide-and-seek" minigame, if you don't get lucky. Of course, these are all among the lengthier activities. 

12 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Don't get me wrong, I have seen Dancer Dimitri in action and it is terrifyingly effective but it won't be as good at killing every last one of them as Paladin/Wyvern/Warmaster Dimitri. And there's something to be said for having two separate units who can be placed almost anywhere instead of just one.

True enough point. While more evasive than usual, a Dancermitri will be somewhat behind more optimized builds in raw enemy-phase killing potential. Plus, a non-Dancer Dimitri can benefit from Special Dance boosts.

3 hours ago, Goddess Serra said:

Similarly, as @Dark Holy Elf said, I don’t find that Lysithea gets much use out of Dark Flier: her spell list and Black Tomefaire are incompatible, which really isn’t what you want from a unit whose best offense comes from 1HKOs. For the Advanced tier, I think Valkyrie suits her best, as she appreciates Uncanny Blow and general mobility on her way to Dark Knight (I tend to have my Gremories go Dark Knight too, as mobility and firepower are always a good option to have).

It's basically a matter of mobility - Dark Flier offers Lysithea better mobility than any other spell-wielding class. She doesn't benefit from Black Tomefaire, sure, but literally just one class (Dark Knight) provides her the relevant Dark Tomefaire. She still has enough firepower that anything she doubles is going down (a detour into Pegasus Knight for Darting Blow can help with this). And anything she doesn't will be near-death anyway.

I wouldn't say it's her best class: Dark Knight maximizes her Reason damage, Holy Knight maximizes her Faith (Seraphim) damage, Valkyrie offers extra attack range, and Gremory gives her the best possible Warps. Uncanny Blow from Valyrie is a nice treat, too. But it's worth being cognizant of the places that only Dark Flier lets her reach with spells.

3 hours ago, Goddess Serra said:

Speaking of offensive mages, the Wyvern Lord Annette build you mentioned is one of my favorites in the whole game, but I do have some comments to make. First of all (and this is rather minor, but still), I feel like Annette has better options for her main weapon: she can definitely do well with Silver+, but Steel+ has 4 less Mt (may be crucial) and 5 less Hit (not a game changer) with 1.5x the durability, which lends itself well to a unit who spams CAs for a living. There is also the Devil Axe+, which may be useful for lowering her HP (more on that later), Freikugel (if you don’t need it on anyone) and obviously Crusher (and Dust).

The Axe of Ukonvasara is also a great flex. With Lightning Axe, it secures triple-digit damage on armored opponents. Of course, a Hammer is usually enough to one-shot 'em, and those are cheap to repair. Hauteclere deserves a shout-out, too, for being among the most accurate of Axes.

3 hours ago, Goddess Serra said:

One last thing, this time about your Brawling dodgetank: it’s certainly a fun build that I’ve used myself, but I do find it unfortunate how pretty much all dodgetanks want AS+ to excel. Instead, I like using Brawl Avoid +20 as an extra for Brawling specialists, especially those who don’t need to go Grappler (at least not right upon hitting Lv. 20) because they already have a CA that hits twice. My favorite user of this is Alois - who, as you may have already realized, is my favorite character in the game by a mile - since One-Two Punch is an excellent art that boosts his survivability by preventing the enemy’s follow-up attacks, and Brawl Avoid +20 mitigates the chances of that single hit landing. Pair it with Quick Riposte, and it will be easier to maintain the 50% HP threshold. Other candidates are Caspar and Felix, whom you’ve already mentioned, as well as Dedue (same CA as Alois and bulkier, but suffers from a Faith bane) and even Catherine (since a Brawling Catherine doesn’t have access to any Fistfaire classes other than War Cleric, and she does have Nimble Combo for Brave attacks and even more Avoid).

One-Two Punch gang rise up! The power and hit boosts are enough to turn attacks that fall short into a sure kill. And Gauntlets generally have so many uses that you're not burning through them (to the degree that, say, Swift Strikes burns though Lances).

6 hours ago, lenticular said:

Personally, I think that there's a useful and meaningful distinction to be made between theoretical optimisation and practical optimisation. Theoretical optimisation is mostly about exploring the absolute limits of what is possible, and how far the game can potentially be pushed. Practical optimisation is more about giving practical advice that will actually be helpful to them as they play the game.

I like this framework. The relevance of any kind of advice depends on who the audience is, and what kind of playthrough they're going for. What's theoretically "best" may not be practically "enjoyable". Like, in FE4, having your Dancer chip an enemy to death in the Arena is "best" for their Gold situation, and for ranked runs in general. But I'm not gonna push that tactic onto novice players who don't really care about rankings or optimization.

[LoneRecon400]

7 hours ago, lenticular said:

That said, I would be interested in seeing your numbers, because the result that you've got surprises me. 

Alright let's show the numbers.

--------------

I'm going to be using In house Hilda as the baseline since she's neutral in flight and can access Pegasus Knight. I'm going to assume she gets Alert Stance + by Chapter 12.

It takes 1780 Flight Exp to reach A+ Flight and she starts with 0.  There are 25 training sessions by Chapter 12, so if we assume that Hilda has Flight as her weekly goal and goes on Flight Patrol, that will give her a baseline of 28 Flight exp a week. We will also assume that she only fights in 50 battles as a Pegasus Knight and 30 battles as a Wyvern Rider, which adds up to 350 Flight Exp.

1780 - (28*25) - 350 = 730 Flight Exp which she will need through instructing. With the Cichol statue bonus, a good sauna bonus, and assuming she gets a prefect every other week, she gains ~40 Flight Exp per instruction. 730 / 40 = ~18 weeks. That means she needs to be tutored starting Chapter 5, which is coincidentally when the statutes and sauna unlock.

Keep in mind that this is a rather conservative approach. You could get more flight exp by fighting more fights in a flying class, accounting for great flight patrols, getting great saunas, or being more favorable in instruction.

But what about Manuela? Well for starters, she joins after missing 15 training sessions and only has D flight to show for it. That means she needs 1680 Flight Exp, and even with a boon there's no way she's getting that by the time skip (only 10 sessions from Chapter 8 to 12). I estimate instead she's going to get Alert Stance + by Chapter 16 (non-CF).

From Chapter 8 to 16 there is a total of 18 Training sessions. Applying the same assumptions on her, she gains 36 Flight exp a week, 200 from a Pegasus mastery with the knowledge gem, and 180 Flight exp from Wyvern combat. 

1680 - (36*18) - 380 = 652 Flight Exp required from instruction. Assuming she gets ~50 Flight exp per week, that's 13 weeks of instructions. That's particularly bad when you also realize that means only 5 weeks to focus on Authority, Lances, Axes, and Bows for the typical class masteries.

---------------

Now all of this being said there are somr pretty major assumptions in these calculations, especially in regards to how many battles are being fought. But even if you disagree with that assumption, I believe it can be shown that the availability difference is a pretty substantial issue that makes Manuela a lot worse than other options.

Edited August 23, 2022 by LoneRecon400

[Asmont Osborne]

2 hours ago, windypanda1 said:

Do y’all have any insights on the strongest Valkyrie build in the game? What characters run it better than others? What ability setup is best? I’ve used the class a couple times but I’m curious how you guys would optimize it.

Interesting question. I don’t think I’ve ever used Valkyrie as a final class, mostly because Dark Knight just has better stats and the two good Tomefaires, while exchanging +1 Movement for +1 attack range often doesn’t make a difference. Admittedly, the latter is probably better on terrain-heavy maps, seeing how attack range is mostly unimpeded by terrain. I guess you could view movement as a Player Phase tool and attack range as an Enemy Phase tool: on PP, you want to reach your target, so there is no difference if the target is an enemy but movement is better if you need to do any kind of support action, like healing or Striding or Rallying; on EP, you could have 0 movement and be fine as long as your attack range is sufficient. That being said, there is a limited amount of things that can attack you from 3 range (Thoron, Mire and archers, basically), and most mages don’t want to see large amounts of EP combat: you can have things like the Vantage Lysithea build that Zoran showcased in his LP, but even she only used the class as a stepping stone towards Dark Knight and, more generally, classes with greater firepower, since Lysithea wants to nuke things and is probably not going to double/survive the enemy’s attack.

To sum up, Valkyrie is probably better in tight areas where maneuverability is limited or not as important (basically the same reasons why Curved Shot is good), including EP, but for any other situation, namely support or a lack of rough terrain, a class with higher Movement (Dark Knight is the obvious example) will be better.

As for characters, it’s admittedly good for any woman who wants to go into Dark/Holy Knight, and especially ones who lack Thoron or Mire (so Constance, Lysithea, Annette and maybe Mercedes), but 4 move with Tomefaire < 6 move and +1 attack range, so they’re probably all going to pick it over Warlock. I’d say budget builds like Rallybot Annette can use Valkyrie, but Dark Flier (same tier, lower overall requirements, better mobility) and Dark Knight (higher requirements but better) probably beat Valkyrie in that regard.

People who want to end up in Dark Flier/don’t care about cavalry mage classes just have no Reason (kill me now) to ever go through Valkyrie, since they don’t care about the Riding rank: said people include Constance, Flayn and some builds for Annette, Dorothea and Manuela.

So… wow, I didn’t expect Valkyrie to match up so unfavorably against other options, but apparently it really is just a stepping stone with a solid mastery skill. Lorenz, Hubert and Hanneman wish they could go Valkyrie in Advanced tier, but they too would probably move on to Dark Knight from Lv. 30 onwards. Sorry, I don’t think this was the answer you were expecting.

[Dark Holy Elf]

4 hours ago, windypanda1 said:

Do y’all have any insights on the strongest Valkyrie build in the game? What characters run it better than others? What ability setup is best? I’ve used the class a couple times but I’m curious how you guys would optimize it.

Valkyrie is a very strong class in Advanced tier for any mage who gets it. Expanded range with no accuracy penalty is nutty, particularly on a class with Canto. I can't stress enough: you could beat Maddening with terrible stats by spamming all the highest-range options, with rare exceptions enemies are not able to handle it. Unlike Warlock and Dark Flier, its special class passive even applies to dark magic, which makes it a particularly strong choice for Lysithea and Hapi.

The first thing to note is that pretty much any magically inclined unit will be ramping up reason like crazy anyway (to get new spells), and a simple C riding (300 exp) is enough for a ~40% certification rate, so even characters with Riding banes can get there with little issue. If you want a little more reliability C+ (460) still is prety easy to achieve. A riding boon is mostly nice for getting you to Move+1 later.

One thing to watch for with the class is its own class minimums are pretty low. A number of units may benefit from certifying for Warlock (for speed, defence, and magic) even if they don't use it. Another thing to watch for is that it's slow for a magic class and you might need to watch out for losing doubling ability, but do keep in mind you can dismount for +2 speed if needed. Certifying for a strength-based class (Paladin if you're planning to go DK later, for instance) can also help to alleviate spell weight, or just getting Weight-3.

Uncanny Blow, its mastery skill, is great. On player phase units (read: pretty much any mage) it's basically Hit+20 except 1.5 times as good, and you get to master it while in a great class instead of a terrible one (terrible in the context of most pure mages). Very nice for landing gambits without help in particular. So even if your end goal is Dark Flier or Gremory, it's worth thinking about going through it.

The transition to Dark Knight is kind of a lateral one. I would broadly recommend doing it on Crimson Flower since the last two maps of CF require a lot of dismounting and Valk dismounts to 4 move while Dark Knight dismounts to 6. On the other routes, I think there's room to debate. Valkyrie has better range and doesn't require lance investment (perhaps slightly speeding the path to Black Range+1 or Move+1), while Dark Knight has better numbers otherwise (move, damage, speed).

I think it's a pretty solid consideration for every single female mage except maybe Manuela/Flayn who are just too far behind on the relevant skill ranks (starting with E in both midway through White Clouds). So Dorothea, Annette, Mercedes, Marianne, Lysithea, Constance, and Hapi, at minimum.

Good skills include Mag+2, Fiendish Blow, Reason Prowess, Uncanny Blow... the last can be filled by whatever, Authority / Weight-3 / HP+5 / Darting Blow (probably only practical for Lysithea unless you don't mind grinding) / Move+1 / a second Prowess skill (for things like Hexblade / Frozen Lance / Seraphim / etc., though honestly Uncanny Blow obviates the need for most of these) are all thoughts. Good accessories are the same as for any other mage, pick 2-3 of Thyrsus / Caduceus / Magic Staff / Healing Staff and switch depending on what the situation calls for. Move-boosters are great as well of course, since they're relatively low-move for a canto class.

[Shadow Mir]

10 hours ago, Goddess Serra said:

To each their own, I guess. Personally, I find that while some Master-tier mastery skills are definitely not worth it, others can either be really useful (Defiant Magic, Avoid, Critical) or simply revolutionize the way a character plays (Quick Riposte). Besides, I just like playing with all the tools at my disposal, and since I’m not an LTC player by any means, I can afford to slow down if needed.

Quick Riposte is the best Master tier mastery, yes, but that isn't saying very much when it's stacked up against Warding Blow, Seal Resistance, and a host of Defiant skills. To that end, I'd say it's the only Master tier mastery that actually manages to be worth it. That said, considering that Master classes require a lot of combat to master, it's hard to see them being mastered in a timely fashion without going out of your way to do so (and again, Quick Riposte is the only one that feels like it's actually worth it; the Defiants have too narrow an HP threshold, and even the ones you mention aren't worth it, whereas Warding Blow and Seal Resistance are laughable).

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

6 hours ago, Goddess Serra said:

As for characters, it’s admittedly good for any woman who wants to go into Dark/Holy Knight, and especially ones who lack Thoron or Mire (so Constance, Lysithea, Annette and maybe Mercedes), but 4 move with Tomefaire < 6 move and +1 attack range, so they’re probably all going to pick it over Warlock.

As a slight counterpoint, Warlock also boasts x2 Black Magic Uses. Of the units listed, I only see this really being relevant for Constance, with the 2-use spells, Bolting and Agnea's Arrow. Valkyrie is probably overall for her, but there's a case for Warlock, especially if I'm just using her for Bolting spam.

Moreover, I'd still consider it Hapi's best (pre-Master) class. Yes, she gets a 3-range Dark spell, but it's not as though going from 3-range to 4 is somehow more marginal than going 2-range to 3. And this way, she can attack enemy monsters from uncounterable range, with any of her spells. When level 30 comes, there's an argument for either Dark Knight (Dark Tomefaire) or Gremory (double Warp, Physic), but Valkyrie isn't totally outclassed.

4 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I think it's a pretty solid consideration for every single female mage except maybe Manuela/Flayn who are just too far behind on the relevant skill ranks (starting with E in both midway through White Clouds). So Dorothea, Annette, Mercedes, Marianne, Lysithea, Constance, and Hapi, at minimum.

Agreed with just about all you had to say about the class! Two other candidates I would throw into the ring are "magical builds" of Ingrid and Edelgard. Both have a relevant boon or budding talent, interesting spell lists, decent Magic growths, plus a magical combat art. That the class boosts both Black and Dark ranges accommodates Edelgard's "split" Reason list, in particular. Even if they switch back to a physical class, they can bring mageline benefits back with them (i.e. Paladin Ingrid with Fiemdish Blow + Frozen Lance, or Wyvern Lord Edelgard using Uncanny Blow for reliable Raging Storm hits).

[haarhaarhaar]

6 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Moreover, I'd still consider it Hapi's best (pre-Master) class. Yes, she gets a 3-range Dark spell, but it's not as though going from 3-range to 4 is somehow more marginal than going 2-range to 3. And this way, she can attack enemy monsters from uncounterable range, with any of her spells. When level 30 comes, there's an argument for either Dark Knight (Dark Tomefaire) or Gremory (double Warp, Physic), but Valkyrie isn't totally outclassed.

Worth adding here that she has Banshee - the moment she gets Valkyrie, she's able to hit enemies from outside their counter range (or further with a range-booster), and then a little bit of Canto/someone else with Reposition will ensure that that enemy (even if it's a Master-class flier) can't reach her or your back line. Solid tactic if you're feeling overwhelmed, especially in the midgame. Breaking monster barriers from outside their counter range is also nice. 

11 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

The transition to Dark Knight is kind of a lateral one. I would broadly recommend doing it on Crimson Flower since the last two maps of CF require a lot of dismounting and Valk dismounts to 4 move while Dark Knight dismounts to 6. On the other routes, I think there's room to debate. Valkyrie has better range and doesn't require lance investment (perhaps slightly speeding the path to Black Range+1 or Move+1), while Dark Knight has better numbers otherwise (move, damage, speed).

I think it's a pretty solid consideration for every single female mage except maybe Manuela/Flayn who are just too far behind on the relevant skill ranks (starting with E in both midway through White Clouds). So Dorothea, Annette, Mercedes, Marianne, Lysithea, Constance, and Hapi, at minimum.

Also worth saying that if you're running a unit that's primarily a mage, but sometimes uses combat arts (Marianne is the obvious example, although I could also see Lysithea, Annette, or a Mag-blessed Dorothea) then every bit of movement helps. The magic CAs can often make the difference between kill and chip, provided you can get there/survive any counter and the EP, which is a point in favour of Dark Knight for those units (and also the lateral move to Dark Flier, ofc). 

16 hours ago, windypanda1 said:

Do y’all have any insights on the strongest Valkyrie build in the game? What characters run it better than others? What ability setup is best? I’ve used the class a couple times but I’m curious how you guys would optimize it.

If you're looking for tips on playing the class well, then beyond what people have already said here (standard good skills/battalions for mages, lean into increasing range/mv as much as possible, abuse dismounting where necessary), just remember that since it has some of the best range in your army, it'll be able to linked attack boost basically anybody in your front line, so make sure to max out supports and don't pick Anna I guess. Unless your valkyrie is Lysithea, you shouldn't be expecting it to get lots of kills - it is just a very safe way of dealing chip/hitting past the enemy's front line or through environmental obstacles. 

[lenticular]

17 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

Alright let's show the numbers.

[snip]

First off, thank you for taking the time and effort to do the numbers. Even if we don't end up agreeing, then I appreciate that.

As for the numbers themselves, I think that the difference between us is that you are assuming putting more resources into the dodge tank than I would. For instance, I wouldn't be assuming use of the sauna, wouldn't be assuming that manual instruction was available every week, wouldn't assume that the flying bonus of the Cichol statue was unlocked immediately in month 5, and so on. My base assumption would be that a character would be manually tutored only half of the available tutoring sessions -- either because they didn't have motivation, or because there are other units who also want tutoring -- and that we would not be using the sauna. Basically, I am assuming a slower rate of advancement than you are, which means that the gap as of chapter 8 is narrower, which means that there's more time for Manuela's strength in flying to help her catch up.

Which isn't to say that I think that you're approach is wrong. If you are going to show favouritism to any unit, then doing so for a dodge tank is definitely a great choice, given how strong they are. But I think that that's the fundamental difference in perspective that has led to our disagreement. And I will agree that if you are pushing hard to get a dodge tank online as soon as possible then that makes Manuela considerably less attractive for the role.

18 hours ago, windypanda1 said:

Do y’all have any insights on the strongest Valkyrie build in the game? What characters run it better than others? What ability setup is best? I’ve used the class a couple times but I’m curious how you guys would optimize it.

I broadly agree with what everyone else has said so far. For the most part, I think that Valkyrie is an excellent stepping stone class for characters who want the riding training to go into Dark Knight (or Holy Knight, I guess), have dark magic spells and so don't benefit from Warlock as much, and/or want to pick up uncanny blow.

If I am sticking with Valkyrie as an end game class, then I'm doing everything I can to optimise for range. That means that I'm using Thyrsus, I'm pushing hard to try to get to S rank in Reason, and I'm choosing a character with a 1-3 range spell. All of which gives a total range of 7, which can do some pretty nutty things. High range is great for firing through walls, offering linked attacks, and (especially with canto) taking pot shots at an enemy while keeping out of their range. It can still be a decent enough class even if you arne't optimising for range, but that's it's only unique selling point, so that's how I'd use it.

The ideal Valkyrie candidate should: be female, have a high magic stat, know a 1-3 range spell, ideally have a strength in both Reason and Riding, have a crest (for easier Thyrsus use), and support a lot of other units (for linked attacks). The best choice is probably Marianne if playing as the Deer, or Hapi otherwise.

[Dark Holy Elf]

11 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Agreed with just about all you had to say about the class! Two other candidates I would throw into the ring are "magical builds" of Ingrid and Edelgard. Both have a relevant boon or budding talent, interesting spell lists, decent Magic growths, plus a magical combat art. That the class boosts both Black and Dark ranges accommodates Edelgard's "split" Reason list, in particular. Even if they switch back to a physical class, they can bring mageline benefits back with them (i.e. Paladin Ingrid with Fiemdish Blow + Frozen Lance, or Wyvern Lord Edelgard using Uncanny Blow for reliable Raging Storm hits).

Good points, for sure. Bernadetta's probably also at least a consideration, for similar reasons. It's an oddball class for all three but an interesting one.

4 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

Also worth saying that if you're running a unit that's primarily a mage, but sometimes uses combat arts (Marianne is the obvious example, although I could also see Lysithea, Annette, or a Mag-blessed Dorothea) then every bit of movement helps. The magic CAs can often make the difference between kill and chip, provided you can get there/survive any counter and the EP, which is a point in favour of Dark Knight for those units (and also the lateral move to Dark Flier, ofc). 

Also definitely a good point. It's worth noting that Assassin (for swords), Paladin (for lances), and Wyvern Rider (for axes) are often suggested as methods to optimize magical CAs in advanced tier, and Valkyrie actually only does 1 less damage than them with magic CAs (+4 magic mod, -5 from lack of faire) while retaining spell access. You don't have quite as much move but you have a lot more than you would as a Warlock/Bishop, and +4 power on Dark Flier along with a better battalion situation.

It's sad that Lorenz can't get this class, because I feel magical CAs shine brightest for those characters who join on the west side of Reunion at Dawn (they're easy, accurate, one-hit kills on every enemy present). But it's definitely a thought for Annette and Dorothea on VW and SS respectively.

[LoneRecon400]

3 hours ago, lenticular said:

 Basically, I am assuming a slower rate of advancement than you are, which means that the gap as of chapter 8 is narrower, which means that there's more time for Manuela's strength in flying to help her catch up.

I'm curious, when exactly in your own personal experience would you expect a unit who is neutral in Flight to reach A+ Flight ?

Edited August 24, 2022 by LoneRecon400